blogs_blog_39

I think Tanma's mask should have been the Noble Kaukau. It's a dead ringer for the Kaukau Nuva.

 

Good call on the rest of them though.

The mask of Adaptation makes me happy, as I've been using that for a while now for my Fan-charrie.

Now we just need a mask of pain...

I think Tanma's mask should have been the Noble Kaukau. It's a dead ringer for the Kaukau Nuva.

 

Good call on the rest of them though.

Good point. IMO Miru is still a better choice, 'cuz of the parts on the cheek areas, which strongly resemble the Nuva Miru, and just for consistency's sake since this is a Le-colored character. Makes sense he'd choose a Le-themed mask, not so much a Kaukau. Still, can't be denied that there is a strong similarity there too.

You know which mask I've always wanted to see? Mask of Healing. Seems like such an obvious power, I'm surprised nobody brought it up.

You know which mask I've always wanted to see? Mask of Healing. Seems like such an obvious power, I'm surprised nobody brought it up.

I actually have one among my Paracosmos Kanohi (which I had submitted to the Multiverse). Kanohi Halehki, heals those injuries or illnesses which the user understands. So naturally I didn't think of inventing it again for the Multiverse, so didn't think of assigning it to one of the official shapes.

 

It would be cool to have an official mask along those lines, I agree.

 

Maybe what we should do is just have an EM Masks contest, and run it similarly to the Xian (/Industrial) Weapons contest, having the top winners get officialized (if Greg were to approve)? That way we could partially return to my original idea for a masks contest involving canon.

 

Of course, we already have several other contests slated, so this probably couldn't be for a while. Just tossing the idea out there.

 

Absorption -- this mask matchup is pretty much totally arbitrary. Of the remaining official shapes in the Unknown Kanohi section on BS01, this was the only one left that I felt had a good enough or clearly-defined enough shape to assign a power, and the only power left to assign of the 30 we established for the Multiverse (obviously the was the last one assigned). The ridges on the side could be seen as representing a power being absorbed, though. And if anyone can think of other symbolic or whatever reasons to attach, feel free to suggest.

 

Another possible symbolism is the shape of the opening for the eyes -- it appears to be a single opening (like the Great Huna but with even less of a division between each eye hole) in the shape of a rectangle with the middle pinched together. It strikes me as vaguely reminiscent of a mouth, as if hungry for powers to absorb.

 

Just a thought.

I've always wanted to see a Mask of Poison or [Power] Inhibition. But these are cool, nonetheless.

 

~EW~

I think Mechanics is an awfully broad-ranged and seemingly disjointed power. It lets you power your own mechanics more (like a temporary energy boost, berserker-type thing? the way mothers are supposed to be able to lift cars off their children?), but it also lets you weaken others'? Like Vamprah's mask? I don't see the two stemming from the same power base.

 

Then, controlling machines, which for one has already been done by the spirit forms of the Makuta, and for two doesn't seem to make any sense. Unless the machine is run by a computer, you'd have to have telekinesis to control it, no? Or magnet powers? Some way to move the parts around. If it is computer-run, you could theoretically shift the circuitry around to make it do what you like, but you'd have to have immense knowledge of how those things work and they're different for every computer. And you'd be using telekinesis.

 

Finally, telepathy with "more complex machines." I can only assume you mean artificially-intelligent machines. Were this the case, the only way I can imagine to know what the AI is thinking is to know the exact actions of all parts of its "brain" and simulate how they would create "thought," and by the time you did, it probably would be thinking something different. XD

 

 

 

I realize I'm trying to apply logic to a world where biomechanical beings can control elements, but it just seems to me that all the other Kanohi work on one principal, while the Mask of Mechanics can just do anything that you can describe in a sentence with the word 'mechanics' in it.

 

By the way, is the Expanded Multiverse canon?

I think Mechanics is an awfully broad-ranged and seemingly disjointed power. It lets you power your own mechanics more (like a temporary energy boost, berserker-type thing? the way mothers are supposed to be able to lift cars off their children?), but it also lets you weaken others'? Like Vamprah's mask? I don't see the two stemming from the same power base.

I don't see why you don't see it? The power gives you limited control over mechanical and biomechanical things. Those are just example uses of tapping into limited control over mechanical and biomechanical things.

 

 

Then, controlling machines, which for one has already been done by the spirit forms of the Makuta, and for two doesn't seem to make any sense.

How doesn't it make sense? Or how, by whatever reasoning you have, do other powers make sense? It's just what it does, same as any other Bionicle power. It gives biomechanical beings increased control over biomechanics, and also lets living beings tap into mechanical beings in a larger sense of the word bio-mechanical.

 

Unless the machine is run by a computer, you'd have to have telekinesis to control it, no?

That would be one way, though it would be more difficult. Or, you could use this mask. The mask is a specific version of telekinesis that is focused on mechanical things. So would be easier to use for mechanical things than Telekinesis.

 

Some way to move the parts around.

The power moves the parts around, same as how a wide variety of other Bionicle powers move things around. Telekinesis, levitation, flight, repulsion, etc. etc. Actually, most powers involve motion of some kind, as motion is one of the most fundamental dynamics of existence. It could even be arged that all change involves motion of some kind.

 

If it is computer-run, you could theoretically shift the circuitry around to make it do what you like

Well, in case you don't know, Bionicle doesn't have computers per se -- but they have advanced clockwork brains that can do some things more like humans compared to a computer, but can't do a lot of other things computers can do. Assuming by "computer" you mean clockwork brains, though, that actually makes the power harder to use, as it is more complex.

 

More complex equals harder to control the motions of it. However, you would have a robotic version of telepathy with robots with clockwork brains, as said before, so you could communicate to them in a unique way (mainly, a silent way). Whether they would do what you wanted would be up to them.

 

to know what the AI is thinking is to know the exact actions of all parts of its "brain" and simulate how they would create "thought," and by the time you did

That's covered by the power. The power gives you the ability to mentally tap into mechanics and control them if they're simple enough. For complex ones, you can't control them, but your mental tap still works. So you sense, subconsciously, the shapes and positions of the clockwork parts, and the mask translates it for you. Similar to how when you learn to read, your mind subconsciously senses what the shapes mean, and pieces it together all in the subconscious, not the conscious as you seemed to think. (The process you described is consciously, part-by-part, thinking over every step in a linear fashion, but that's not how language works, once you know the language.)

 

I suppose that if a computer similar to a real-world one could exist in Bionicle, that might be too complex even to understand enough for the robotic telepathy, though. Perhaps you were assuming that was how Bionicle "computers" work? Not -- clockwork.

 

I realize I'm trying to apply logic to a world where biomechanical beings can control elements

IMO, what you applied was incomplete and inaccurate logic; that was your problem, not logic itself. (I'm a logician, after all. ) You weren't fully thinking it through, or weren't quite aware of how these things work. Which happens, so no harm done. Logic isn't something you can just switch on and "apply" -- you have to think it through fully and accurately, or else you will arrive at the wrong conclusions.

 

but it just seems to me that all the other Kanohi work on one principal, while the Mask of Mechanics can just do anything that you can describe in a sentence with the word 'mechanics' in it.

I think you just contradicted yourself. Mechanics (or, more accurately, life working in harmony with mechanics, which is what biomechanics is), is the single concept of the mask. The examples are simply examples of different ways to use that single concept. All masks have multiple applications of their single concepts, remember. Not sure why you focused on that mask and not the others, or not on pretty much all the other official powers.

 

By the way, is the Expanded Multiverse canon?

No, the Expanded Multiverse is "fanon" -- a collection of fan-created content intended to be freely available to all fans to use. The only things canon in it are:

 

1) The Kanohi Olmak we're using with Greg's permission, in origins story.

 

2) The 15 winners of the Xian Weapons contest (which otherwise, along with the noncanon qualifiers, are made on Industrial in the EM).

 

3) The eleven mask powers this entry is about.

 

Plus we might ask for that Mask contest idea; the top winners to be official. And such.

 

Otherwise, non-canon.

 

Edit: Oh, I thought I was in the other blog entry. :-P toromaga and EW -- good ideas all. :-)

I always thought that Gavla's mask looked more like a Matoran or Noble Arthron. With fangs, of course, courtesy of the Makuta. Obviously it has no trouble resembling an Avsa either, so I can agree with these choices.

 

Vulture may be poetic, but it still strikes me as an odd name. Mask names are non-poetic for a reason-- they are meant to make at least some sense without an in-depth explanation. "Mask of carrion" is a bit gruesome, but still poetic and descriptive of the power-- the only problem is that it is more passive than active. I earlier suggested "predation", although you have a point that it has connotations regarding the eating of living beings (although it can still refer to scavengers).

 

I definitely like "incomprehension" much better than untranslation.

Vulture may be poetic, but it still strikes me as an odd name. Mask names are non-poetic for a reason-- they are meant to make at least some sense without an in-depth explanation. "Mask of carrion" is a bit gruesome, but still poetic and descriptive of the power-- the only problem is that it is more passive than active.

Carrion is a good suggestion. But remember, I said Vulture is the English translation. The Matoran would have a more "bland" word that specifically means this power -- English has none. Carrion would be similar -- but of course lack the obvious ties to Vultraz's name. I would compare Vulture to Greg's nickname for Toa of Plant Life -- The Greens. It's obviously not a literal translation from the Matoran; but it's more poetic (and yes, also weird sounding ) than the more literal version.

 

I do like that suggestion better than the other alternatives brought up so far though.

 

Maybe what we should do is run a poll for Vulture, similar to what's being done for Pouk's mask. Compile a list of the best alternatives, and vote on Vulture or the alternatives (listing the pros and cons as we see them behind each one). See what most people think.

 

Another alternative is to create a more verbey-feeling word from Vulture. Vulturation. I dunno.

Might I suggest that "Mask of Vulture" be changed to "Mask of Hunger", inspired by Vohrok's (the black Rahkshi's) power?

IMO makes a lot of sense as Greg has already established a power very similar to it--the only difference is that, in my understanding, it can only be used on those who are dying. Or is that just the "good" use of it, and it can be used at any time?

-Z-

Hunger is already the Avsa.

 

Edit: Alright, I went ahead and fired off a PM to Greg. Think I covered most of the things, also asking some storyline questions about things brought up here like about the Bohrok. I'm pretty satisfied that the kinds of feedback I've gotten so far are about what I'm going to get.

 

Didn't bring up anything about Vulture. I still don't think there's been a suggestion yet that's quite as good as Vulture, though Carrion is close. Any more ideas are welcome.

Yeah, "incomprehension" makes it about a hundred times better in my opinion.

I want to think up a better name for "Vulture," but I still can't think of one...

 

Also, I love aging and conjuring. Both are very fitting.

Absorption -- this mask matchup is pretty much totally arbitrary. Of the remaining official shapes in the Unknown Kanohi section on BS01, this was the only one left that I felt had a good enough or clearly-defined enough shape to assign a power, and the only power left to assign of the 30 we established for the Multiverse (obviously the was the last one assigned). The ridges on the side could be seen as representing a power being absorbed, though. And if anyone can think of other symbolic or whatever reasons to attach, feel free to suggest.

 

Right now the power is intended to be a temporary version of Vezon's power; absorbing the powers of those in close proximity. It has been pointed out, though, that it is very similar to Pouks's power, which lets him study a power in use and mimick it. As I understand it, his can work even at distant range, while not being as quick to copy the power, but this only works at close range and copies it faster.

 

However, perhaps it should be proposed to actually say this IS Pouks's power? So this would be the mask he wears. Not much detail about this one was established in the bio that was written when I got Greg's approval for it.

 

Psst, bones - I think you meant Vezok there, 'cause Vezon has no powers.

 

~~END~~

Vulture may be poetic, but it still strikes me as an odd name. Mask names are non-poetic for a reason-- they are meant to make at least some sense without an in-depth explanation. "Mask of carrion" is a bit gruesome, but still poetic and descriptive of the power-- the only problem is that it is more passive than active.

Carrion is a good suggestion. But remember, I said Vulture is the English translation. The Matoran would have a more "bland" word that specifically means this power -- English has none. Carrion would be similar -- but of course lack the obvious ties to Vultraz's name. I would compare Vulture to Greg's nickname for Toa of Plant Life -- The Greens. It's obviously not a literal translation from the Matoran; but it's more poetic (and yes, also weird sounding ) than the more literal version.

 

I do like that suggestion better than the other alternatives brought up so far though.

 

Maybe what we should do is run a poll for Vulture, similar to what's being done for Pouk's mask. Compile a list of the best alternatives, and vote on Vulture or the alternatives (listing the pros and cons as we see them behind each one). See what most people think.

 

Another alternative is to create a more verbey-feeling word from Vulture. Vulturation. I dunno.

Parallels with Vultraz's name seem kinda corny to me; that's one reason I dislike "Mask of Vulture". And "The Green" works a lot better than "Vulture" because of the article-- it's hard to picture "vulture" without the article in any context where it's not a name ("vulture preyed on the carcass"). Plus, there's always the fact that "The Green" is a real-world, English-language term used poetically for plantlife, whereas people rarely use "vulture" to refer to the act of necrophagy (which, for the record, would also be a good name-- "Mask of Necrophagy").

 

I dislike it when the truth of English BIONICLE terms as translations of Matoran is necessary to understanding, just because not everyone reads BIONICLE material thinking "Oh, this is just a rough translation". I've seen enough baffled queries on BS01 and here to know that such is the case.

In my Denizen entry, i made a charecter with a mask of Empethy.

I thought that that would be a cool mask power. I basically said that the Mask or Empathy could make the target experiance the wearers feelings. I don't want it used though, beacuse i already haave a design for the mask.

-SK

Parallels with Vultraz's name seem kinda corny to me

Really? Any idea why?

 

That's again a personal taste reason, which isn't necessarily a problem objectively.

 

I personally don't see connecting logical reasons for a character's name to an actual foundation to be corny (which is in turn a poetic and evocative connection to the power definition itself; thus actually grounding Vultraz's name in meaning rather than just being random, which to me would be kinda corny).

 

Are you just one of those that dislike meanings behind Bionicle names? Like Axonn, etc.? I've encountered this often, but don't want to put words in your mouth. If so, I'd just point out that the obvious connection of "Vultraz" to "Vulture" is there regardless of the mask shape name -- I just put the connection to work, if you will.

 

And "The Green" works a lot better than "Vulture" because of the article-- it's hard to picture "vulture" without the article in any context where it's not a name ("vulture preyed on the carcass")

You don't think "Toa of Green" would work? Green is used without an article all the time as a reference to plants -- "the Green" is actually the exception, not the rule. Especially with the recent ecological take on the word "Green," but we can't get into that here...

 

Plus, there's always the fact that "The Green" is a real-world, English-language term used poetically for plantlife

And Vulture is a real-world, English language term used poetically for carrion, "necrophagy" as you suggest, scavenging, etc.

 

 

whereas people rarely use "vulture" to refer to the act of necrophagy

It's not referring to the act of necrophagy. It's referring to the power -- a noun, not a verb.

 

Necrophagy is a nice alternative, I agree. I see three problems with it, though:

 

1) Obscurity -- would most people see that and immediately get a sense of what the power is related to? I doubt it.

 

2) Again, no obvious connection to Vultraz, but as I said, that's a-gonna be true of every suggestion besides Vulturation, and you said you didn't like the connection (no idea why?), so I guess to you this problem would actually be a good thing.

 

3) It lacks the unique direction of a poetic choice, instead going with a pattern we've seen before; the scientific comic-book-power style of Psychometry. Which IMO isn't as cool, especially in the Bionicle tradition of trying new approaches. Not that a new mask name NEEDS poetry, but I think it would be sad to cut that out of Bionicle entirely, since this is the only mask name that does it thus far (as least with a clear metaphor; though metaphors aren't the full extent of poetry). And not that I dislike the scientific style -- Mr. Physics Geek loves it, but it's been there done that.

 

I dislike it when the truth of English BIONICLE terms as translations of Matoran is necessary to understanding, just because not everyone reads BIONICLE material thinking "Oh, this is just a rough translation". I've seen enough baffled queries on BS01 and here to know that such is the case.

That's fine too. I'm a realist, and sometime linguist, so I personally love these sorts of things. But these are all taste reasons; subjective.

 

Actually, I'd clarify it's not necessary to understanding. Surely you're not saying "Vulture" does not convey an idea related to what the power does? It helps understand why there's no grammar issue, but that's something only grammar geeks (or grammar rebels like me ) would care about.

 

 

Psst, bones - I think you meant Vezok there, 'cause Vezon has no powers.

GAH! How'd Vezon sneak in there?

 

Oh, that's right, he has a malfunctioning Olmak! (Seriously, I even looked the two up to be sure I was using the right name lol.)

Parallels with Vultraz's name seem kinda corny to me

Really? Any idea why?

 

That's again a personal taste reason, which isn't necessarily a problem objectively.

 

I personally don't see connecting logical reasons for a character's name to an actual foundation to be corny (which is in turn a poetic and evocative connection to the power definition itself; thus actually grounding Vultraz's name in meaning rather than just being random, which to me would be kinda corny).

 

Are you just one of those that dislike meanings behind Bionicle names? Like Axonn, etc.? I've encountered this often, but don't want to put words in your mouth. If so, I'd just point out that the obvious connection of "Vultraz" to "Vulture" is there regardless of the mask shape name -- I just put the connection to work, if you will.

 

And "The Green" works a lot better than "Vulture" because of the article-- it's hard to picture "vulture" without the article in any context where it's not a name ("vulture preyed on the carcass")

You don't think "Toa of Green" would work? Green is used without an article all the time as a reference to plants -- "the Green" is actually the exception, not the rule. Especially with the recent ecological take on the word "Green," but we can't get into that here...

 

Plus, there's always the fact that "The Green" is a real-world, English-language term used poetically for plantlife

And Vulture is a real-world, English language term used poetically for carrion, "necrophagy" as you suggest, scavenging, etc.

 

 

whereas people rarely use "vulture" to refer to the act of necrophagy

It's not referring to the act of necrophagy. It's referring to the power -- a noun, not a verb.

 

Necrophagy is a nice alternative, I agree. I see three problems with it, though:

 

1) Obscurity -- would most people see that and immediately get a sense of what the power is related to? I doubt it.

 

2) Again, no obvious connection to Vultraz, but as I said, that's a-gonna be true of every suggestion besides Vulturation, and you said you didn't like the connection (no idea why?), so I guess to you this problem would actually be a good thing.

 

3) It lacks the unique direction of a poetic choice, instead going with a pattern we've seen before; the scientific comic-book-power style of Psychometry. Which IMO isn't as cool, especially in the Bionicle tradition of trying new approaches. Not that a new mask name NEEDS poetry, but I think it would be sad to cut that out of Bionicle entirely, since this is the only mask name that does it thus far (as least with a clear metaphor; though metaphors aren't the full extent of poetry). And not that I dislike the scientific style -- Mr. Physics Geek loves it, but it's been there done that.

 

I dislike it when the truth of English BIONICLE terms as translations of Matoran is necessary to understanding, just because not everyone reads BIONICLE material thinking "Oh, this is just a rough translation". I've seen enough baffled queries on BS01 and here to know that such is the case.

That's fine too. I'm a realist, and sometime linguist, so I personally love these sorts of things. But these are all taste reasons; subjective.

 

Actually, I'd clarify it's not necessary to understanding. Surely you're not saying "Vulture" does not convey an idea related to what the power does? It helps understand why there's no grammar issue, but that's something only grammar geeks (or grammar rebels like me ) would care about.

 

Main reasons for thinking the name Vulture is corny are because:

 

1) As you say, BIONICLE material is just a translation of the Matoran language into English. So why, unless "vulture" is the same word in Matoran and English, would there be any connection? Yes, it's not unheard-of: we do have Axonn, after all. But the other reasons make the Vultraz-Vulture connection slightly less bearable.

 

2) Why would he be named after his mask, or his mask be named after him? Yes, there are possible reasons in-story, but most of them are either far-fetched or completely speculative. And total coincidences like that can be corny unless they are intended to be humorous.

 

3) If his name were similar to the actual Matoran name of the mask, it would be more tolerable. But here his name is related to the mask's power: a power which his mask, as a Matoran mask, doesn't even have!

 

I actually love meanings behind BIONICLE names; they can even be English language-based meanings. But you don't intentionally make note of them in story: we already know Vultraz's name probably comes from the word vulture, but that probably has nothing to do with why he has the name in-story. Ihu means "nose" in Maori, which was probably the reason the name was chosen for Mt. Ihu. Several Mata Nui locations had names from Polynesian words for parts of the face, such as Mangai Volcano (from the word for "mouth"). The whole west coast of Mata Nui, in fact, was in the shape of the face, hence the name of the island: "Mata Nui" is Maori for "Great Face". And the fact that it concealed the Great Spirit's face just contributed further to the meaning.

 

Yet in-story, Mt. Ihu's name comes from a Matoran of the same name, and the Mangai Volcano's name comes from the name of a past Toa team as well as a Matoran word for "protection". This happened elsewhere, too: Hydraxon never had anything to do with water until the Pit collapsed, Mantax had nothing to do with manta rays until he was mutated, and so on. Making it seem that the name similarity has an in-story reason related to the outside-of-story reason is to be avoided unless such a reason is plausible.

 

And it's even worse if you distance the meaning from the name by making it something like "He's called Vultraz because he happens to wear this powerless mask, which if it had a power would have the power of Vulture". At least Hydraxon's name, Mantax's name, etc. all had the semblance of meaning at relevant points in the story, while the parallel between Vultraz's name and his mask's name won't ever have any significance unless he becomes a Toa. It's just a weird, English language-dependent coincidence (and therein lies another problem: non-English-speaking BIONICLE fans will have a different, translated name for the power, but will still have the name "Vultraz").

 

I've also never heard vulture used poetically for carrion or carrion-eating until now. When I hear the word vulture, it takes only its concrete meaning-- a bird that eats carrion-- and not necessarily the behavior of the bird.

 

I like the word necrophagy, as it comes from two fairly well-known roots. The same could be said for "Psychometry", but I couldn't begin to tell you what the mask does without reading an explanation for myself (the roots regard mind and measurement, which could refer to any number of powers without a clear definition to assist the reader). And just to clarify, we've also had poetic mask names before: Mask of Fate and Mask of Spirit are two obvious ones. Also, as I said, the name "Mask of Vulture" sounds less natural than these two names or any mask names (let alone poetic concepts like "The Green"): one talks about fate without a "the" or spirit without a "the" all the time, and in fact the article usually implies an entirely different meaning. But people don't talk about "vulture" without an article largely because it's not an abstract noun-- it's a concrete noun, and as such the poetic meaning is a bit forced.

 

Also of note is that "necrophagy" has poetic connotations of evil or darkness (from the necro- prefix, meaning "death"), appropriate for a mask considered immoral. "Vulture" doesn't have those connotations to nearly the same degree.

1) As you say, BIONICLE material is just a translation of the Matoran language into English. So why, unless "vulture" is the same word in Matoran and English, would there be any connection?

Well, did you have the same issue with the original Maori names? Or the Greek and other such ones? It's a longstanding Bionicle tradition to have the Matoran meanings inspired by real-world words. And I personally strongly support this tradition, think it's far better than just random nonsense (though random nonsense can be used sparingly too), and so naturally I will use it myself.

 

But the short answer is, "it's fiction."

 

Lots of stuff in Bionicle is clearly inspired by the real world, like Matoran (or Great Beings, or whatever originally started that basic design) being humanoid, even though humans don't exist, having audible voices, having trees, etc.

 

If you demand no inspiration from the real world in one category, it seems only logical to me you must extend that to every other category, and soon you'd be left with something totally alien.

 

Which might please a few supergeek scifi fans like me, lol, but it wouldn't be familiar enough to appeal to most fans.

 

So, since trees, humanoid shapes, etc. are fair game, I think inspiration from real-world meanings for names are fair game too.

 

 

2) Why would he be named after his mask, or his mask be named after him?

Why not? He's a questionable Matoran, to evil Matoran, wearing a mask that (is now established to be) an evil shape. It makes sense that he chose that shape at some point (or was started with it, and embraced the evil that its shape evokes in Matoran culture, whichever) embracing evil, letting it be symbolic of his personality.

 

In fact, it's quite easily possible he was randomly created with the mask. Remember he's from the TKP, ruled by Gorast, one of the most extreme Makuta. Everything else can be extrapolated from that -- he's named after the mask from the start, he begins to embrace the evil connotations of it, becoming a criminal, and later a Shadow Matoran.

 

It would especially explain his tendency to kill in order to get what he wants -- he got the idea from the mask shape, which is said to tempt the (powered version) wearers to kill in order to get the energy.

 

It could also be a name he embraced later when he became evil, having had the mask already, etc.

 

Yes, there are possible reasons in-story, but most of them are either far-fetched or completely speculative. And total coincidences like that can be corny unless they are intended to be humorous.

I don't see what's humorous about a Matoran gone evil, embracing an evil name and mask shape to symbolize it inspired by creatures (and the mask shape obviously too) that are quite disgusting, who literally eat the dead. Black humor could be constructed around it, sure, but otherwise...

 

And I don't see what's so far-fetched about it either. Things or people being named after other people/things are commonplace in the real world AND in Bionicle.

 

Is there currently a specific canon explanation? No, but if you really think one is needed we could run one by Greg.

 

3) If his name were similar to the actual Matoran name of the mask, it would be more tolerable. But here his name is related to the mask's power: a power which his mask, as a Matoran mask, doesn't even have!

Sigh. I dunno how many times I have to say this. Mask shape IS related to power.

 

The mask shapes were originally intended to be labels for the powers. Greg has clearly explained this many times. This isn't a theory -- this is proven fact. And the same shapes are used in Matoran (powerless) masks, and called "Matoran Hau" etc. Anything less would be pointlessly overcomplicating things.

 

Obviously, someone seeing a Matoran Mask of Vulture is going to associate the shape with the power name.

 

And, perhaps this is the part you weren't aware of, in Matoran language, the power name IS the mask name. "Hau" means "Shielding," etc. So whatever the name of the mask of Vulture is, it means "Vulture."

 

Obviously, Vultraz's name would imply that the mask name has "Vult" in it at the beginning. It's unlikely the exact name can be pinned down, as it would have to be run by legal (unless it IS Vultraz, I suppose, which is an idea worth considering), and that's a hassle.

 

Are there exceptions? Yes. But those also have cultural reasons, and certainly don't change the fact that the cultural "shape label" rule also exists. If one cultural reason to have a mask shape is valid, then so are the others on the exact same grounds.

 

 

I actually love meanings behind BIONICLE names; they can even be English language-based meanings.

Okay... :blinks: *is confused* *goes back and re-reads what you said before...*

As you say, BIONICLE material is just a translation of the Matoran language into English. So why, unless "vulture" is the same word in Matoran and English, would there be any connection? Yes, it's not unheard-of: we do have Axonn, after all. But the other reasons make the Vultraz-Vulture connection slightly less bearable.

I guess I now don't understand where you were coming from in this paragraph, then. If you love this, why apparently complain about it here, and further on in your post?

 

I also wasn't sure if the last sentence in that paragraph was written as you intended it, either, or what you meant by it, so yeah...

 

Anyways... *reads on*

 

 

But you don't intentionally make note of them in story: we already know Vultraz's name probably comes from the word vulture, but that probably has nothing to do with why he has the name in-story

Okay, now I'm highly confused. I thought you said you liked the concept.

 

Lemme ask it to you straight. Tahu? Axonn? Whenua? Frostelus? Glatorian?

 

Heck, Tohunga? Notwithstanding the later legal issue?

 

Do you like any of these, or none? Or all? (I pesonally like 'em all except Frostelus is a little lacking, but then they're minor chars so whatever.)

 

All of those clearly connect the real-world meaning that inspired them to why they have the name in story. Vulture/Vultraz is no different from this tradition.

 

The only difference is, I came up with it instead of Greg.

 

 

I

hu means "nose" in Maori, which was probably the reason the name was chosen for Mt. Ihu.

Right... so, where is the issue? This clearly demonstrates the tradition. This totally contradicts what you said about "we already know Vultraz's name probably comes from the word vulture, but that probably has nothing to do with why he has the name in-story".

 

 

Yet in-story, Mt. Ihu's name comes from a Matoran of the same name, and the Mangai Volcano's name comes from the name of a past Toa team as well as a Matoran word for "protection".

That's wonderful, but that is the exception, not the rule. How do you know the guy didn't have a big nose shape on his mask, anyways?

 

As for the Mangai thing, do you know the name history behind that? It's also not supportive of your reasoning. The details are a bit foggy right now, but it was inspired directly by the original use of the word in 2001, in a way that totally can exist only in real life, as the 2001 uses predated the later application to Lhikan's team ONLY in the real world. I think that one was also canonized from a fan's suggestion, incidentally, and all of the "stretch" arguments you're using against Vulture could be applied to that. Yet you seem to be okay with it.

 

Tahu, Axonn, etc. Surely you wouldn't claim these have no connection to their storyline? Fire, giant Ax... I mean, come on! It's obvious! Everybody knows it! XD

 

 

Hydraxon never had anything to do with water until the Pit collapsed

Well, there you go -- that just further backs me up. There's a name clearly inspired by what his role in sets/story WOULD be in the future, yet he still had the name in the past. This makes Vultraz/Vulture work even if no past explanation of the connection is generated!

 

The plot device of prophetic visions could be brought in to explain Hydraxon and Vultraz, though I don't think those are necessary. But the idea could be, when a character is named, there's a bit of a prophecy power, destiny, etc. connecting with whatever or whoever names them, so their name becomes prophetic. Destiny is, after all, one of the major themes of the MU.

 

Mantax had nothing to do with manta rays until he was mutated, and so on.

Yet again, this only argues against your point. Vultraz would need no logical pre-existing explanation for the name connection. It could just come to be obvious later, same as Hydraxon or Mantax. Surely you see you're arguing against the very point you were trying to make?

 

Making it seem that the name similarity has an in-story reason related to the outside-of-story reason is to be avoided unless such a reason is plausible.

And yet you just demonstrated the exact opposite with Hydraxon and Mantax -- the fact that Hydry is in Mahri Nui, underwater, "makes it seem that the name similarity has an in-story reason related to the outside-of-story reason", even though he had the name before that connection existed!

 

And same with Mantax. There are countless other examples. And besides, I thought you liked this tradition, anyways? Which is it, man?!

 

And it's even worse if you distance the meaning from the name by making it something like "He's called Vultraz because he happens to wear this powerless mask

I don't see what's "bad" or "distant" about this. But if you don't like the idea of him getting the mask originally (plausible, remember, in Gorast's land), he could easily get it later when he embraced evil.

 

The attitude you seem to be conveying here just strikes me as boring. No interesting, original, lifelike events occuring in anyone's lives, they just exist and no need to delve further into who they are in colorful ways. I just don't see the point of such an attitude. Why see increased delving into a character as "bad"?

 

I've seen the attitude often among certain "story geeks", and I'm not sure why -- an automatic, unthinking, closeminded antagonism to anything new that's established, or to new theories, etc. At least, to things that don't come directly fromthe story team/Greg -- often the exact same styles are A-OK to these fans as long as they come directly from Greg, or even in contests Greg approved for canon, but not the same thing when it's pure fan input into the canon with Greg's direct approval, or even just fans coming up with plain old theories!

 

Many fans have noticed this unfortunate tendency in S&T, for example. I am NOT one of those, and I reject that attitude. It's anti-imagination, seeking always just to leave things unthought through lest we risk "bad" for one or two people. I do NOT encourage it, and try to correct it whenever I see it or think I might be seeing it (as now).

 

Maybe I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but that's how it strikes me. All your questions or concerns, you could answer yourself by applying a little imagination. Isn't that what LEGO is all about?

 

And yet instead you seem to convey an antagonism towards use of the imagination. You seem to be posing these questions and basically saying, "But I refuse to apply my own imagination."

 

Another thing is this annoying "statistics" argument. Something is "unlikely," and therefore it somehow shouldn't be used? Have you ever looked at real life? Unlikely stuff happens all the time. Unlikely does not mean nonexistent, and it most definately does not mean "should not be in stories." Stories are often at their best when they focus on the rare, the original, the unlikely. Bionicle is almost always focusing on the unlikely. Surely you don't think a mere average Matoran is what Vultraz is? Why tell a story about someone who has a boring, average-only life in official canon? Serials aren't supposed to be mere common-interest quaint little stories; they are about the most important events and characters. To qualify, you basically HAVE to be weird.

 

This unthinking aversion to the unlikely seems to often coincide with the anti-imagination attitude. It's basically a mental laziness (no offense), in seeing "unlikely," and not thinking beyond that point. Something is unlikely... okay, we stop there. We have no story, nothing interesting, we just have sheer boredom, but at least we didn't get into statistics! Bah, I say to that.

 

And of course, no offense intended. I wouldn't even bring this up if I hadn't seen the attitude needlessly targeting other people, and I'm not necessarily accusing you of it, I'll let you speak for yourself. It just seems like the only thing that would explain the glaring logical contradictions you used here. And as Mr. S&T, the guy people see as THE story geek, I see it as my duty to stand up for the imagination, whether I'm the one using it or not, and make it clear that I encourage the imagination same as Greg does, being true to what Bionicle is really all about.

 

Again, sorry if in the process I have seemed to wrongly paint you this way. I think it's important to at least ask, though, and explain my thinking on it, which is all I trying to do here, though it be wordy. I hope you can understand that regardless of where you stand on this.

 

If this IS true of you, then I'd simply encourage you to see it in yourself, and realize it's unhealthy, and against the concept of what LEGO is. I've fallen prey in the past to this attitude, and once I realized it, it baffled me. It seems to be perhaps based in an ego problem or something, I haven't studied it carefully enough I guess to be sure. Even seeing it in me I don't know what causes it exactly. But I know it only causes pointless misery in the very person who holds to it, and it can easily be let go of -- it's not one of those genetic personal taste things. It seems instead to be learned, and can be unlearned.

 

It not true of you, I'm listening, and apologies if I seem to be accusing; not my intent.

 

(Also, I definately appreciate the questions being raised. I'm not whining about this apparent attitude coming at me -- I actually love it when it happens as it's one way to raise important questions. I just suggest asking yourself questions first, and using your own imagination, then posting suggestions, instead of making them sound like open-question accusations, which rarely fly in the end... Plus it's an opportunity to challenge you to improve, if it's true of you.)

 

Aaanyways, moving on...

 

 

At least Hydraxon's name, Mantax's name, etc. all had the semblance of meaning at relevant points in the story

Okay, so the obvious Vulture-like shape of the mask, inspiring the power to explain the shape, has the same exact thing. You look at him and you think "Vulture" (if you've ever seen a vulture), and you look into it and you see, "hey, I was right! His mask power is Vulture! That's cool!"

 

I understand that you're trying to say "it's okay as long as it's not a stretch, and this is a stretch," and yet many previous official things are as much or more of stretches, some you even cited and even stated as such, and approving of those. This is a glaring contradiction in your logic. So it doesn't help the stretch argument.

 

If you want to convince me this is too much a stretch, in your personal taste, then I would want to see you consistently saying the same thing about the other things that are stretches, and defining why the line for a stretch lies wherever it does, for you. None of which you have done -- it seem that it's more of a floating point than a line for you, where it's okay for other things but not this.

 

while the parallel between Vultraz's name and his mask's name won't ever have any significance unless he becomes a Toa.

Sigh. Here we go again. Mask shape is related to power. You can assert this all you like, it's still totally false, and by now it surprises me you wouldn't know this.

 

Repeat after me. I wanna see you say it, so we don't have to go over this again. Mask shape is related to power. Sum up how.

Write a 100-word essay explaining all of the ways in which Matoran mask shapes are connected to the powers of their corresponding powered versions.

 

Consider it homework.

 

It's just a weird, English language-dependent coincidence (and therein lies another problem: non-English-speaking BIONICLE fans will have a different

Oh come now. You're waaaay grasping at straws now, Aanchir. You dissapoint me. The Maori, Greek, etc. inspirations (notwithstanding the legal issues with Maori; that wasn't done right) exist in Bionicle too.

 

If I was inventing an actual mask Matoran language name, I would use my tradition of going on Wiktionary and pulling in inspiration from hundreds of names, but I wasn't inventing Matoran names, I was inventing English power translations.

 

"Vulture" is an English word. Most Bionicle fans speak English. Get over it.

 

Manta ray, hydro, ax, are all English words. That's a very, very weak argument.

 

This is waaay stretching the criticism. No offense.

 

Heck, BS01 is an English-only wiki anyways! BZP is an English-only site. You and I are speaking English. Etc.

 

I've also never heard vulture used poetically for carrion or carrion-eating until now.

Well... have you ever studied poetry?

 

Half the goal in poetry is always to be original. I took a class on it, admittedly not tons of classes on it, but this was emphasized in it.

 

In poetry, using the same ideas others have already used is seen as a bad thing. O_o

 

This was THE POINT. Poetry is all about, prof say, finding those original poetic connections and images. Of course, fiction is too. Originality is always a good thing.

 

Robots. Tropical. Island.

 

 

Again, a very straw-graspingey argument.

 

 

When I hear the word vulture, it takes only its concrete meaning-- a bird that eats carrion-- and not necessarily the behavior of the bird.

It's called "metaphor". *sighs*

 

Pardon me if I seem to be getting impatient here. *must be patient, must be patient*

 

But IT SEEMS to me that if you had an open mind, these things would be obvious to you. You wouldn't go parsing metaphors because they involve physical things -- anybody who knows anything about metaphors knows that's the whole point of metaphors (or of many metaphors, not that they have to be physical per se).

 

I like the word necrophagy, as it comes from two fairly well-known roots. The same could be said for "Psychometry", but I couldn't begin to tell you what the mask does without reading an explanation for myself

Good point.

 

Again, though, IMO it's "been there done that". Not that I'd mind more like that, though. But if given the choice between introducing a new style of poetry versus using a style that has already been introduced, just not represented numerously yet, the choice to me is obvious.

 

Robots. Tropical. Island.

 

And just to clarify, we've also had poetic mask names before: Mask of Fate and Mask of Spirit are two obvious ones.

Yes, as I said, metaphor is hardly the only type of poetry possible. But it's the most famous type of poetry, and the one that has not yet been used to name a mask power.

 

 

Also, as I said, the name "Mask of Vulture" sounds less natural than these two names or any mask names (let alone poetic concepts like "The Green")

XD Come now. "The Green" is clearly a humorous name. It's not poetic in the more serious sense of poetry. Granted, humor is not banned from poetry, but that's more limerick.

 

"The Green" is a silly vegetable reference. That's where that comes from. That's Greg's sense of humor at work. I highly doubt most poets would see it as comparable to the level of poetry as metaphor. Actually many poets seem to be quite antagonistic toward limericks, but that's another issue, lol. Yes, I would agree it counts as poetic, but it's hardly the first description that comes to mind, more like comical.

 

At least to me.

 

But people don't talk about "vulture" without an article largely because it's not an abstract noun-- it's a concrete noun

Again as I said recently, that merely further backs up that the power name is unlikely to be misunderstood.

 

The example I used is Hau and Miru.

 

When you see "Mask of Shielding" and "Mask of Levitation", you don't immediately know the details of the power. But because they are grammatical with definitions you already know, you generate possible meanings.

 

You could easily assume that the Hau controls shielding in general, or that the Miru lets you levitate other objects (barring Nuva; we're just talking 2001 here). Both of which are wrong.

 

But when you hear "Mask of Vulture", you know the previous vocabulary definitions of "vulture" you have cannot grammatically apply; it can't mean "mask of the vulture" or "mask of vultures", so it must be a new definition you don't yet know. And yet it also conveys the basic idea of it, like with Kindred, so you have a sense of what the definition will be about.

 

So, that's a long way to say the name is even better suited to the power than previous names like Shielding or Levitation.

 

Again, though, Necrophagy is still a good alternative. Not saying it isn't.

 

and as such the poetic meaning is a bit forced

Sigh. No, it isn't. It's called "metaphor." Which is the core idea of poetry, among a range of poetic devices possible. The one most famous, best known, etc. I think the argument that metaphors are "forced" compared to other poetic devices is what seems forced.

 

Also of note is that "necrophagy" has poetic connotations of evil or darkness

Yes, good point.

 

IMO, Vulture does too. Eating the dead; same as necro. Plus vultures are plain ugly, very reminscient of typical video game fantasy enemy creatures. Vulture does it in a more direct, and more imagery metaphorical way than Necrophagy too. More evocative.

 

[Edit: And on the "forced" argument. Seriously, take a step back and think about it! This was the name that was the LEAST forced, if anything. It snapped naturally into place for two reasons -- the obvious Vulture-like shape of the mask, and the name of the guy wearing that shape, Vultraz! That means it is LESS forced, not more! Seriously man, think about it!

 

I miiiiiiiight be able to understand mistakenly thinking I had "forced" it for some reason. But you're wrong. I did not. I merely let the best, most obvious name come to me, and it was "Vulture."

 

Admittedly, I didn't think of Necrophagy though. That one is, again, another good suggestion. But about the "forced" argument, that is clearly way wrong. "Vulture" is the most natural name for this power and shape, for many reasons.]

Generally speaking, I agree that it is a good thing that these Kanohi now have names and powers. But the way they were chosen seems a bit rash to me. In the past there were contests for fan-made creations to be canonized. The information about these mask was originally created for a non-canon story and suddenly, in a private message it is declared canon. You (bonesiii and Swert) did a decent job about the masks, but besides your obvious authority on BZP/BS01 I see no reason why your ideas should be automatically accepted while other fans get no chance at all. If a fairly unknown member wrote a similar essay of storyline additions it would be very unlikely to be treated the same.

 

I would like to emphasize that I DON'T speak out of discontentment or even personal dislike. I have nothing against you and in the end I don't care if these Kanohi keep their current story roles or not. I just would like to add my humble opinion to the discussion.

I'm getting tired of repeating the same points over and over in an attempted thorough reply, so let me make this clear. I love BIONICLE names with real-world origins. They don't have to make sense in story, as I said with Hydraxon and Mantax. Vultraz's name probably did come from vulture. And there was a reason for that, and that reason had nothing to do with his mask power. Maybe it's his personality (plausible) or his behavior (plausible) or his appearance (plausible). For all we know, it could even be the birdlike vehicle he used (again, plausible).

 

But you're just ignoring all those reasons that he has that name and making up a reason that sounds fairly silly. It's like having Luke Skywalker discover the force power of "skywalking" just so his name makes sense. The point is that they made as much sense as they needed to before, and going overboard with fabricated explanations just spoils the fun of the story. Another example: suppose Axonn had the Mask of Axe, or Brutaka had the Mask of Brutality. Yes, they can be made to work without a story explanation, but the meaningless coincidence just seems silly. I'd love to explain it in more objective terms, but I really can't.

 

For another character, "Mask of Vulture" might be poetic. But for Vultraz, it just spoils the symbolism, metaphor, and subtle connotations his name already had. The implied meaning of his name has to play second-fiddle to "Oh, his name and his mask power sound alike!"

 

You know what would be a good solution? Maybe you (or I, if you prefer) could just ask Greg which name he likes better: necrophagy or vulture. If you disagree that's OK, because I understand that you prefer the term vulture and that it has its own merits. It's selfish of me to ask this, but I'm growing tired of debating-- offline stresses are really tiring me out right now-- and I'd just really like it if you'd offer him the option so we can end it. And if you don't feel you should, just say so and I'll live with vulture, but for once I'd like to end the debate. I'm sorry if I'm terrible at debating; I'd really like to be as good as you one day but I guess I am being self-centered and I can't take the pressure anymore.

Generally speaking, I agree that it is a good thing that these Kanohi now have names and powers. But the way they were chosen seems a bit rash to me.

 

In the past there were contests for fan-made creations to be canonized.

*ahem* You do realize who you're talking to, right? I was the one that ran the first contest like that, and I established that tradition. You know how I got Greg's approval to have those canonizing contests?

 

I PMed him, and he said yes.

 

Exactly the same as this. (And though he didn't want to approve the Masks contest just yet, we will most likely try again next year when we actually have time to run it, so that'll be a moot point there too.)

 

I understand the caution not to run too many things for officializing by Greg; he's a busy guy, but this was for something major. And I'm not ignoring your use of the word "bit" and the clarifications you raised, don't misunderstand, but I want to be crystal clear; it is my way -- it was by no means rash. Some of the details weren't perfect, but that's why we asked for and got feedback, and most of those things have been changed based on the feedback. We're not cutting feedback off -- the process is not over, providing people can give logical reasons (the Pouks poll isn't closed, etc.).

 

And besides, before I agreed with the original (Treespeak in Metru Nui) proposal to have a canonizing contest, all these sorts of things were done the old-fashioned way, which was to PM Greg and ask if he approved. Remember that came first. I was one of the three people that made that happen (Greg and the original suggester being the others), by taking the trouble to establish the tradition -- heck the tradition of having S&T contests at all was established in the same stroke! That took a large commitment of time from me. Gratitude would be advisable. (Half kidding there... half... But you can't take things for granted. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Etc. )

 

So no, I would hardly accept the logic of appealing to the very tradition I helped establish of contests as valid logic that the more direct PMing method is "rash."

 

And we will have such contests in the future. Two are already approved (short story contests) and are coming soon.

 

Besides, this way is much easier on Greg. I'm not sure you have realized just how much stress the contest method puts him under; he has to go over far more requests for approval when we run these things. (Which is probably why he didn't want to approve the masks contest just yet.) Those are major projects -- and they're hard on staff too, because we have to catch things the enterers didn't think to run by him.

 

And finally, the vast majority of things established in official story aren't run by fans first, but established by fiat by Greg and/or story team, and we only get to see them when they're revealed. So rash had literally no good basis as an argument.

 

Greg can establish ANY story fact at ANY time if he wants.

 

 

The information about these mask was originally created for a non-canon story and suddenly, in a private message it is declared canon.

Tons of things in stories are decided suddenly, whether with fan input or not, especially stories that are merely intended as lighthearted entertainment like Bionicle, not Lord of the Rings.

 

Alright, here it comes. I was trying to avoid it.

 

Why so... serious?

 

*ahem* Yes, thank you now be quiet Joker.

 

And it might seem sudden from your point of view, because you weren't involved in the planning stages, but it wasn't. I'm not sure how much fiction writing you've done in this genre, but you learn that many details must be chosen "suddenly", or you go nowhere fast.

 

But anyways, it's a moot point, because we are listening to well-reasoned feedback, and Greg has already approved several changes.

 

You (bonesiii and Swert) did a decent job about the masks, but besides your obvious authority on BZP/BS01 I see no reason why your ideas should be automatically accepted while other fans get no chance at all.

Plenty of other fans have gotten Greg's approval. I certainly didn't start the tradition. It almost sounds as if you're saying, because I happen to be who I am, I have no right to also participate in fan input into the story? That would be hardly fair. Of course, Greg knows I think these things through carefully; I'm not just doing it randomly. Not arguing with that. But that's a proven track record -- there's nothing nefarious about that, lol.

 

Nothing is automatically accepted. I'm a little surprised that you would think such a thing, TB. You know better than that, don't you? Greg approved exactly what he wants to, and does not approve what he does not want to. There's nothing automatic about it at all. There've been plenty of times where he's turned down suggestions I had, and he says clearly why. He did that for some things in my latest PM to him, in fact. And in the original PM in question, he even added something to one of the powers that I hadn't thought of to make it fit better.

 

If a fairly unknown member wrote a similar essay of storyline additions it would be very unlikely to be treated the same.

Perhaps, but nobody thought to do it. It was my idea. That's a totally unprovable claim, because it didn't happen. You don't know what would have happened. You don't have a Mask of Alternate Futures. So it's really an irrelevant point. And I consider myself equal to all members -- no better by nature, and no less. If they can ask Greg things, so can I.

 

I became known by demonstrating my trustworthiness. But that's how it always used to happen, and I've seen Greg officialize things from "no name" members all the time. Often in the form of minor answers to questions he hadn't thought of previously. But that's part of the canon. (And often he comes up with those answers far more suddenly than this; this was a process of about a month and still ongoing, those are often contained within about five seconds. )

 

I would like to emphasize that I DON'T speak out of discontentment or even personal dislike. I have nothing against you and in the end I don't care if these Kanohi keep their current story roles or not. I just would like to add my humble opinion to the discussion.

That's fine. I'm just a little surprised you would have such an opinion. I can assure you, it's unfounded.

 

But again, if there was anything truly rash about them, then it should be a specific problem you could point out. Without giving a specific about something that hasn't been considered yet, how can I judge that? I can't do anything with a generalized complaint that they were rash. Specifics, I can bring to Greg, if they are logical enough to bother him with.

 

 

I'm getting tired of repeating the same points over and over in an attempted thorough reply, so let me make this clear. I love BIONICLE names with real-world origins. They don't have to make sense in story

Okay, but there must be a "but"... *reads on*

 

But you're just ignoring all those reasons that he has that name and making up a reason that sounds fairly silly.

The problem with that is, it's totally subjective. It sounds silly to you, perhaps. But that's just a personal taste. I haven't seen anyone else say that. Some think it sounds a little weird, but once they understand it, they have said okay, they like it, for the most part.

 

Lotsa of things can sound silly to different people. I always thought Makuta sounded slightly silly, whereas Teridax sounds more imposing. I didn't mind Mack, don't get me wrong. But others see it the exact opposite -- they see Makuta as the more imposing, serious, and Terry as the sillier one.

 

That just doesn't amount to a logical argument against the power name.

It's like having Luke Skywalker discover the force power of "skywalking" just so his name makes sense.

No it isn't; the difference is "Skywalker" is English, but we're talking about Matoran compared to English. But hey, if Lucas wanted to explain the term, which as far as I know is just random otherwise, by saying that in the past the first person called "Skywalker" actually was a Jedi famous for a particular unique skill of flight or something... it would be perfectly plausible. I would have no issue with it. It would be better than it just being random.

 

But I think it might mean that they fly spacecraft well; good pilots. So there already IS such an explanation at least implied. In fact, this is an excellent example -- Anakin and Luke were great pilots, but surely that can't account for the name, as they were born after the name would presumably be attached? Anakin's mother was not a pilot and hated that sort of thing.

 

But perhaps someone she's descended from was a good pilot, or perhaps The Force caused the name in a prophetic way, and the piloting skills come from Anakin's unique origin.

 

So no, I don't think that helps the argument.

 

The point is that they made as much sense as they needed to before

"Need" fallacy again. This is entertainment. It is NEVER about need. Nothing in Bionicle is needed -- Bionicle doesn't even need to exist. It's all about want. Personal taste.

 

But you could easily argue that no clear justification for that mask shape existed previously. Now it does -- it looks like a Vulture because the power is similar to Vultures. Simple, natural, not forced, nothing of the sort.

 

BTW, before I forget, I asked Swert what he thought about Necrophagy, and he thinks it's too obscure a word to be better than Vulture.

 

and going overboard with fabricated explanations

Aanch... first of all, everything in fiction is fabricated. But who's going overboard? It seems to me that a few people are going into a lot of detail in trying to explain why they don't like it -- I didn't need to do that. I summed up the reason for it in one short paragraph. You're the very one that asked for at least one of those explanations. I didn't think it was needed; you apparently did.

 

I'm not saying you guys are going overboard either; don't get me wrong -- those were Aanch's words, not mine. Just saying, it's hardly fair to accuse me of it, when I'm not the one going into really complex, stretched arguments on my own just to get to the main point. I stated the main point clearly, concisely.

 

Granted, some of my answers about the reasoning have gotten a little more complex than preschool, but we can handle that, can't we? All of it has been very true to the traditions of Bionicle, and IMO that's what's most important. But all these complaints about it have struggled with complex arguments to even get a single clear idea across, including you. I'm still not totally sure I get exactly what you prefer, as a rule. Every point you raise would seem to be contradicted by another example of the same thing, yet you like that example. If anything is a canditate for the accusation of overboard, it would be that.

 

One of those traditions is actually that Bionicle be a story you have to work to understand. Greg has said that many times, including recently.

 

 

Another example: suppose Axonn had the Mask of Axe

He has an Ax.

 

 

Brutaka had the Mask of Brutality

Sure, why not? It would explain the name. But it need not be explained by a mask. It's explained by something -- his personality. These things have explanations, and your two examples have two different kinds of them. Why not use mask shape as another kind?

 

Imagination, man.

 

 

Another contradiction though -- right now, the exact details of the connection between Vultraz, the shape, and the name are NOT set in stone. I wasn't going to. You are here saying you like subtlety; you'd prefer they not be. Yet, you were the very person to bring up the question of how, specifically, they're all connected. I wouldn't even have speculated if you hadn't asked (and my speculations are not canon). Which is it here too? Do you want more left unsaid, or more explanation behind it?

 

 

Yes, they can be made to work without a story explanation, but the meaningless coincidence just seems silly. I'd love to explain it in more objective terms, but I really can't.

Well, that's my point. I don't think there's anything really objective about it. It's just a personal taste thing.

 

What I think we should all be able to agree on is that, whether we like what is established or not, it's better to establish a world that can then inspire more fan imagination in detail, rather than being [Edit: Oh... need a better word here lol... "wimpy"?], not daring to do ANYTHING just because it's known that somebody won't like it.

 

I might not like everything established in the storyline, but I am glad it was established, and I'm not so deluded about how statistics works that I think I will happen to like everything. I'm happy for those who DO like the styles I don't like, that they got something they like.

 

For another character, "Mask of Vulture" might be poetic. But for Vultraz, it just spoils the symbolism, metaphor, and subtle connotations his name already had. The implied meaning of his name has to play second-fiddle to "Oh, his name and his mask power sound alike!"

Well, I can see an argument about subtlety, but that is hardly consistent with the Axonn example. And given that the implied inspiration is USED by the now-established inspiration, it's true to it.

 

So I don't think it's a problem, according to (again) the traditions we have already seen established in Bionicle (such as that subtlety is NOT required for names, and may even be advised against, as the more subtle you get, the less people get it).

 

Seriously, point to Axonn and tell me that's subtle.... and then maybe you'd have a point. Maybe. Unlikely. XD

 

 

You know what would be a good solution? Maybe you (or I, if you prefer) could just ask Greg which name he likes better: necrophagy or vulture. If you disagree that's OK, because I understand that you prefer the term vulture and that it has its own merits.

Well, I can't stop you from talking to Greg. Given that Swert and I both think Vulture is better, I'd rather not do that. I didn't bug him about Untranslation or Absorption until we had actual suggestions that were universally liked better than what we'd originally done. I think the last thing he needs is a headache. It would be better if we could reach an agreement on something before that was done. Right now all we could say is, "Which is better, Vulture or Necrophagy (or something else), and Swert and bones vote Vulture, Aanchir votes Necrophagy".

 

Also, the point about how obscure Necrophagy is is a very strong reason not to go with it. It's also consistent with what Greg has said before about not getting too over the heads of the little kids in the category of science specifically.

 

It's selfish of me to ask this, but I'm growing tired of debating

No, I understand totally about that. I was just very, very confused by many of the seemingly contradictory points you raised. And I guess I still am, a little.

 

I understand that you wouldn't -- from a personal taste, subjective point of view -- like the less subtle style used here. What I don't get is liking the same thing in Axonn -- many people have complained about him for the same reason -- but not here. And again, I wanna emphasize that I'm not insulting you or accusing you of anything. I just need criticism to be logical and clearly explained, or what I can I do with it really?

 

All of that said, if most people preferred Necrophagy, or Carrion, or something over Vulture, Swert and I might change our minds. I doubt it though, 'cuz there's such a strong basis for Vulture.

 

Okay, but let me cut to the chase. What about "Vulturation"? Do you like that one?

 

I haven't gotten any feedback on it at all. It fixes many of the criticisms leveled at Vulture from a grammatical angle, while keeping the benefits that I have raised about the connection to Vultraz and the mask shape.

 

And if you don't feel you should, just say so and I'll live with vulture, but for once I'd like to end the debate. I'm sorry if I'm terrible at debating; I'd really like to be as good as you one day but I guess I am being self-centered and I can't take the pressure anymore.

Well like I said, what I might wanna do is compile a list of the best suggestions and run a poll for opinions, before bothering Greg about it. I have been hoping for more feedback on "Vulturation" or a better overall suggestion though. But Necrophagy and Carrion would be in it. Probably Scavenging too. Not sure if we'll do that or not, but it would be the most direct way to answer this question -- what do the members think?

 

I'm sorry if I'm terrible at debating; I'd really like to be as good as you one day but I guess I am being self-centered and I can't take the pressure anymore.

Alright, well, I'm not trying to pressure you. Just curious, trying to understand, etc. Don't worry, I'm used to people not being as good at debate as me. But yeah, there's no rush.

Generally speaking, I agree that it is a good thing that these Kanohi now have names and powers. But the way they were chosen seems a bit rash to me.

 

In the past there were contests for fan-made creations to be canonized.

*ahem* You do realize who you're talking to, right? I was the one that ran the first contest like that, and I established that tradition. You know how I got Greg's approval to have those canonizing contests?

 

I PMed him, and he said yes.

Well yes, I know; nothing to add here...

 

Exactly the same as this. (And though he didn't want to approve the Masks contest just yet, we will most likely try again next year when we actually have time to run it, so that'll be a moot point there too.)

It seems there are only a few unnamed Kanohi left. No?

 

I understand the caution not to run too many things for officializing by Greg; he's a busy guy, but this was for something major. And I'm not ignoring your use of the word "bit" and the clarifications you raised, don't misunderstand, but I want to be crystal clear; it is my way -- it was by no means rash. Some of the details weren't perfect, but that's why we asked for and got feedback, and most of those things have been changed based on the feedback. We're not cutting feedback off -- the process is not over, providing people can give logical reasons (the Pouks poll isn't closed, etc.).

 

And besides, before I agreed with the original (Treespeak in Metru Nui) proposal to have a canonizing contest, all these sorts of things were done the old-fashioned way, which was to PM Greg and ask if he approved. Remember that came first. I was one of the three people that made that happen (Greg and the original suggester being the others), by taking the trouble to establish the tradition -- heck the tradition of having S&T contests at all was established in the same stroke! That took a large commitment of time from me. Gratitude would be advisable. (Half kidding there... half... But you can't take things for granted. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Etc. )

 

So no, I would hardly accept the logic of appealing to the very tradition I helped establish of contests as valid logic that the more direct PMing method is "rash."

 

And we will have such contests in the future. Two are already approved (short story contests) and are coming soon.

 

Besides, this way is much easier on Greg. I'm not sure you have realized just how much stress the contest method puts him under; he has to go over far more requests for approval when we run these things. (Which is probably why he didn't want to approve the masks contest just yet.) Those are major projects -- and they're hard on staff too, because we have to catch things the enterers didn't think to run by him.

You're right. I should initially have shown more gratitude. Big thanks to you and Greg and everyone else who puts so much effort into the contests!

 

And finally, the vast majority of things established in official story aren't run by fans first, but established by fiat by Greg and/or story team, and we only get to see them when they're revealed. So rash had literally no good basis as an argument.

 

Greg can establish ANY story fact at ANY time if he wants.

Indeed.

 

The information about these mask was originally created for a non-canon story and suddenly, in a private message it is declared canon.

Tons of things in stories are decided suddenly, whether with fan input or not, especially stories that are merely intended as lighthearted entertainment like Bionicle, not Lord of the Rings.

 

Alright, here it comes. I was trying to avoid it.

 

Why so... serious?

 

*ahem* Yes, thank you now be quiet Joker.

 

And it might seem sudden from your point of view, because you weren't involved in the planning stages, but it wasn't. I'm not sure how much fiction writing you've done in this genre, but you learn that many details must be chosen "suddenly", or you go nowhere fast.

 

But anyways, it's a moot point, because we are listening to well-reasoned feedback, and Greg has already approved several changes.

Okay.

 

You (bonesiii and Swert) did a decent job about the masks, but besides your obvious authority on BZP/BS01 I see no reason why your ideas should be automatically accepted while other fans get no chance at all.

Plenty of other fans have gotten Greg's approval. I certainly didn't start the tradition. It almost sounds as if you're saying, because I happen to be who I am, I have no right to also participate in fan input into the story? That would be hardly fair. Of course, Greg knows I think these things through carefully; I'm not just doing it randomly. Not arguing with that. But that's a proven track record -- there's nothing nefarious about that, lol.

Of course I don't think that you should have less rights than anyone else. Sorry if my words suggested this.

I know that others had success with their ideas regardless of how well they were known. This one just seems like the biggest non-contest addition so far.

 

Nothing is automatically accepted. I'm a little surprised that you would think such a thing, TB. You know better than that, don't you? Greg approved exactly what he wants to, and does not approve what he does not want to. There's nothing automatic about it at all. There've been plenty of times where he's turned down suggestions I had, and he says clearly why. He did that for some things in my latest PM to him, in fact. And in the original PM in question, he even added something to one of the powers that I hadn't thought of to make it fit better.

I am aware of this. The word "automatically" must have sneaked in accidentally. Sorry, my error.

 

If a fairly unknown member wrote a similar essay of storyline additions it would be very unlikely to be treated the same.

Perhaps, but nobody thought to do it. It was my idea. That's a totally unprovable claim, because it didn't happen. You don't know what would have happened. You don't have a Mask of Alternate Futures. So it's really an irrelevant point. And I consider myself equal to all members -- no better by nature, and no less. If they can ask Greg things, so can I.

 

I became known by demonstrating my trustworthiness. But that's how it always used to happen, and I've seen Greg officialize things from "no name" members all the time. Often in the form of minor answers to questions he hadn't thought of previously. But that's part of the canon. (And often he comes up with those answers far more suddenly than this; this was a process of about a month and still ongoing, those are often contained within about five seconds. )

This makes me think of a personal example: Last year, I posted a fanon extension of the Matoran language (grammar, new words, etc). I had put much thought into it in order to make it as compatible with the official story as possible. Although it wouldn't have affected the plot I never considered to suggest it to be canonized. In the official language topic I saw people make theories about a handful reoccurring syllables while I had made up individual meanings for virtually all typical ones. It seemed too big for me. I would have felt like a wiseacre having the last word in this discussion. Do you think there was really no reason to worry and GregF would have happily accepted it into the canon if he had found it made sense? Do I understand your argumentation correctly? :-)

 

I would like to emphasize that I DON'T speak out of discontentment or even personal dislike. I have nothing against you and in the end I don't care if these Kanohi keep their current story roles or not. I just would like to add my humble opinion to the discussion.

That's fine. I'm just a little surprised you would have such an opinion. I can assure you, it's unfounded.

When I write debating posts I am often worried that my words make me sound rude or stubborn when they're supposed to sound nice, professional and open-minded. It is very important to me that my attitude is clear. I know, I might be a bit paranoid about this.

Also, note that English is a foreign language to me. Although I don't consider my skills bad I'm sure I often make subtle mistikes that change the connotation. I am very sorry in case my wording was inappropriate.

 

When I wrote my original post I was by no means convinced that I was right and you were wrong. I just described how it looked like to me at the first glance. As your talent of speaking has always impressed me, I was kind of expecting to receive an intelligent answer which reveals facets that I did not consider.

After all, how can I have my opinion be proven wrong if I don't state it?

 

But again, if there was anything truly rash about them, then it should be a specific problem you could point out. Without giving a specific about something that hasn't been considered yet, how can I judge that? I can't do anything with a generalized complaint that they were rash. Specifics, I can bring to Greg, if they are logical enough to bother him with.

At the moment I don't have any concerns about a particular mask. "Rash" and "sudden" did not at all refer to your way of thinking them up. Actually I like how you tried to find a connection to the appearance for each individual mask. I can't think of a better method to derive the powers. :-)

 

Once again, we had a fair amount of false disagreement caused by inaccurate wordings. Common problem, isn't it?

 

Phew, I hope I did not forget anything I wanted to say.

 

It seems there are only a few unnamed Kanohi left. No?

Well, true, but we had in mind more of an art contest, so fans could invent the shapes too. Fair point though. Actually, I left at least one good one, heh -- the foreground one of those two blue ones in the same pic.

 

 

You're right. I should initially have shown more gratitude. Big thanks to you and Greg and everyone else who puts so much effort into the contests!

Appreciated.

 

 

Of course I don't think that you should have less rights than anyone else. Sorry if my words suggested this. sad.gif

I know that others had success with their ideas regardless of how well they were known. This one just seems like the biggest non-contest addition so far.

Well, I suppose it probably is. I didn't of it as that major when we planned it; after all, most people were just ignoring those masks until we did this. I must say I was suprised at how much debate sprung up around it, and mostly pleasantly so; if we are disagreeing about it, at least we're giving these masks attention rather than just ignoring them, which was my original goal. But yeah, I guess probably the biggest.

 

But again, I was the one who thought of filling this big gap. As far as I saw, nobody else was even thinking of it. So, I guess it happened how it happened, yanno?

 

On the other hand, you could argue that additions like Krakua or the Tatorahk (sp lol? Tahtorahk?) were larger, since they play major storyline roles.

 

 

I am aware of this. The word "automatically" must have sneaked in accidentally. Sorry, my error.

Alright, forgiven.

 

 

 

 

This makes me think of a personal example: Last year, I posted a fanon extension of the Matoran language (grammar, new words, etc). I had put much thought into it in order to make it as compatible with the official story as possible. Although it wouldn't have affected the plot I never considered to suggest it to be canonized. In the official language topic I saw people make theories about a handful reoccurring syllables while I had made up individual meanings for virtually all typical ones. It seemed too big for me. I would have felt like a wiseacre having the last word in this discussion. Do you think there was really no reason to worry and GregF would have happily accepted it into the canon if he had found it made sense? Do I understand your argumentation correctly? :-)

Well, the world will never know unless you ask him. I can't predict Greg. Such a thing could have several uses when naming new things. On the other hand he might see it as painting himself into a corner, or going into too much detail. But realize, you would NOT have the last word on it -- Greg would, and that's his job; it's not too big for him.

 

(BTW, though... where is this, and could it become involved with the EM? Fanon is the point of that after all...)

 

 

When I write debating posts I am often worried that my words make me sound rude or stubborn when they're supposed to sound nice, professional and open-minded. It is very important to me that my attitude is clear. I know, I might be a bit paranoid about this. rolleyes.gif

Also, note that English is a foreign language to me. Although I don't consider my skills bad I'm sure I often make subtle mistikes that change the connotation. I am very sorry in case my wording was inappropriate.

 

When I wrote my original post I was by no means convinced that I was right and you were wrong. I just described how it looked like to me at the first glance. As your talent of speaking has always impressed me, I was kind of expecting to receive an intelligent answer which reveals facets that I did not consider.

After all, how can I have my opinion be proven wrong if I don't state it?

Very true, and a wise observation I always try to caution my posts with. I do not object to any of these criticisms being posted even if I disagree; for that reason.

 

And noted about English not being your native tongue. Bit of a tip for future reference; even speaking English natively, I have found that directly confirming I mean no offense -- as in "I want to make it clear I mean no offense" goes miles towards making it clear. Even just adding the typical "no offense" helps, though people might not take it as seriously since it's a cliche. So in other words, if you sense that perhaps how you've worded a post could come across the wrong way, simply directly state your true intent as an aside, to remove all doubt. You'll notice I've been doing that over and over.

 

At the moment I don't have any concerns about a particular mask. "Rash" and "sudden" did not at all refer to your way of thinking them up. Actually I like how you tried to find a connection to the appearance for each individual mask. I can't think of a better method to derive the powers. :-)

 

Once again, we had a fair amount of false disagreement caused by inaccurate wordings. Common problem, isn't it?

Boy, it sure is. Like I've said before, in my experience, something around eighty percent of disagreements are really agreements, just using different words and connotating them different ways. Usually as long as we all remain calm it comes out in discussion and everything works out, though.

 

And even with most of the other 20%, people usually do agree on the basics, and don't realize it.