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Why I Do What I Do

Posted by bonesiii , Feb 02 2007 · 110 views

Debate


Often people wonder why I devote so much time and energy to logically analyzing and debating in complaint topics, focused on figuring out if there are problems with Bionicle. In general, people often wonder why I am logician to begin with. Why do I do what I do?

The following is a quote from a PM that someone (I do not know who, nor do I want to know who) sent to someone I was debating today:

QUOTE
Bones is very hard to argue with. I must let you know that he is a logician, and he analyzes every move. He is almost impossible to beat in an arguement or debate. I myself am a veteran with him, and I tell you this with experience.............Facts are his only weakness. He does not pay attention to opinions............I always wanted to enter a debate with him again and win, as the last one I had with him was a tie. It seems that he is currently in a tie with you.

This is a very telling insight. It's not often that I am privy to "behind the scenes" conversations like this (not to over-analyze it, of course). Sadly, it illustrates the wrong way to go about debates that I see all too often in all walks of life--it's about "beating" the opponent.

See, as a logician, I approach debate in a way that has much better results:

I always win.

And I always lose.

What I mean is, I look at debate as a search for the truth, between two sides who are friends. I don't want to "beat" anyone, I don't want to "win", as if this was a game or a sport, as if it was about one-up-manship. It isn't. This is about reality, trying to understand it, trying to find it. About truth. That's important to me, much more important than my own ego or whatever. (I regularly torture my ego, whip it, suffocate it... stuff it in a toaster... Make it step on Lego bricks... tongue.gif)

So, since I look at things logically, if I ever had an opinion that didn't jive with reality, my friends (debate opponents--anyone) would hopefully be able to show me where I was wrong, and I would be glad for this! Because then I could stop believing the illogical opinion, and take up a new opinion that is closer to reality!

If this happens (and it has many times, believe me, lol), I still end up being right. And my friend has helped me get closer to reality, which is what I wanted in the first place. See how this is a win?

However, if I am ever tempted to "beat" someone, or "own" them, whatever the label, I must turn down that temptation, however appealing it may seem. It is a trap, a venomous snake that sings a sweet song until it sinks its fangs in. But my ego so wants to push me towards those fangs. Hence the torture. tongue.gif


I call this "truth-seeking debate."


But the kind that this PMer seems to be using is "defensive debate", where the goal is just to speechify words to defend your own opinion, no matter what it is, no matter whether it jives with reality or not. That's sad. I have zero interest in that.

And there's something else to notice--that PMer said that I am "almost impossible to beat". Well, I would actually say that is true of defensive debaters--if logic itself doesn't convince them of reality, nothing does. Defensive debaters don't want to admit when they're wrong. I do. Really, I am much easier to "beat" in that sense than anyone else.

Because I am honor-bound to concede, when logic demands it. I have to be honest, I have to honestly believe what makes the most sense to believe, as far as I can know. I am very comfortable with this bondage--it means I'm a lot more likely to be right! And I like being right. Not just that--the idea of being wrong terrifies me. Imagine if I was wrong in a question of life or death--and I chose wrong, because of my ego. Now that is scary.

The only other type of debater I can think of is one who will give in for illogical reasons, and that to me is pretty sad--it doesn't have anything to do with reality. Facts should be everybody's "weakness." Except--they aren't a weakness! Facts are what debate is all about! You might be able to sway someone like this, but it's no accomplishment, is it? It's possible you might convince them of reality, but they don't even know it. I am extremely glad I don't live like that. It's important to me to show this sort of person logic too--logic is the key.


So my challenge to that PMer (and to everyone, really) is, can he or she accept the possibility that heshe could be wrong too? What if the reason that debater had trouble "beating" me, is that I actually happened to be right? The PMer seems to assume that I must be wrong. Perhaps the PMer should realize that he or she is actually wrong about something?



As for Bionicle...

When it comes to Bionicle debate, my concern is that there are real problems with Bionicle (or there could be, and have been). I want Bionicle to do well, and to me complaining about real problems is a vital part of helping it do well. If we cannot logically find real problems... what happens when a problem gets too big? No more Bionicle.

It isn't enough to just accept every complaint and pretend it's a real problem--it isn't enough to pretend that if I don't like something, it's a problem. But far more importantly--it is not enough to just ignore complaints, and pretend everything is OK automatically. So I have to logically analyze, I have to challenge people when their logic is flawed, I have to concede when there are real problems that can be logically shown, and I believe that I can do some good for Bionicle this way. happy.gif

And even if a complainer is logically shown to be wrong, I hope that I can help them see that, and come away happier for being able to know that even though they don't like something, they can rest assured that something is helping Bionicle, not hurting. This is probably my weakest area, and I think I come off as too condescending a lot or sometimes I'm just so tired of debating someone who doesn't realize that what I'm talking about has been debated to death in the past and take too many logical leaps, or I let frustration get into my post, which really hurts this goal. I don't want that--and as a logician honor bound to be honest, I must admit that it is a serious flaw in how I debate, way too often. Trying my best to avoid that, because the goal is to help show others a better way, not to "beat" them. smile.gif





That is why I do what I do. But--I could still do better, and I thank the hundreds of people I have debated who have been able to show when I've made those kinds of mistakes. happy.gif

Even though my ego loses every time... I avoid the poisonous fangs, so I ain't complaining. laugh.gif And to people thinking like that PMer--let me tell you, one of the most exhilerating experiences possible is admitting when you're wrong. To people who never have, it can be scary, but I've admitted being wrong enough times to know it shouldn't be--it is actually fun! When I can get closer to reality, I feel like an eagle soaring over the clouds. This isn't a dry, boring, robotic life, being a logician. It is wonderful! And I use the eagle metaphor for a reason--it sometimes feels like having eagle eyes, being able to see what many others can't. (The ego is the rat in this equation.)





And one final note: I am not Spock.



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QUOTE
And to people thinking like that PMer--let me tell you, one of the most exhilerating experiences possible is admitting when you're wrong.

QUOTE(Vezon Ultimate)

Ok, well that was fun wasn't it? Crushed, flattened and absotively posilutely disproven! Ok, this can be closed now.

Well, I doubt that feeling of being proved wrong is really that good....And I don't know why, but I sort of feel that being proved right can bring us closer to the truth than being proved wrong; there can be infinite wrong theories/points, but there can only be one truth. A wrong theory only gives us an example of a misconception, but a correct theory brings us the truth, and facts. So, what's so great about being proved wrong? Of course, my post has many flaws(compared to bones' blog entry, lol), but still, I think that being proved wrong isn't great.
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Queen Anora Mac Tir
Feb 03 2007 04:01 AM
If someone were to lose a debate, would that person lose his pride in himself? If this were so, then that person would not be able to combat in another debate as well as in the previous one. On the other hand, if that person were to win the first debate, then his pride would be able to be exploited in the debate to come.

Now, if the debator were to win the first and lose the second, then he would, in theory, 'lose face' and not want to partake in a debate for a long time. This is a natural occurence (one that I am familiar with, too) and is a symbol of 'natural selection; the debator was not good enough to proceed to the next debate.

So in short: A debate is a fight for honor and should be treated accordingly. A debate is to win, although, like you said, if you are obviously wrong, it is time to bail out.

As an extra measure to my reply, I believe in debating or arguing for a couse or meaning. Any debates I enter are because I have a reason to doubt the other's judgement. One example is in a religeous debate; if I have reason to enter, or if the other's belief is dissagreeing with mine and I believe that my logic is superior, I will fight to the death. Almost all the debates I enter are either for a greater good or for honor. I am a duelist, and I adore an honor-related fight. If honor is the prize and I have the advantage, then I will duel 'till the end.

Now, some debates and duels are for fun -- one example of this is the 'Downfall of Bionicle' topic, in wich I was directed to this blog entry, that I join for pleasure. I enjoy the action of a debate, and just love a debate or arguement in wich I think I can contribute somewhat.

So I actually agree with the PMer in most areas, but not all. I suppose there is not much I can say about his thinking, as you have already covered it.

~EW~
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kaukau.gifI laughed when I read EW's post (it's an inside joke). I dissagree with you in many areas, Bonesiii. I think what you are trying to say is that you like being closer to reality and you think it feels good to be proven wrong. I agree more with EW about being proven wrong hurts your ego. You seem to forget, Bonesiii, that the human mind has no definate right or wrong or up or down. What I meant by that is that people's minds do not have absolute rules, and if they were then we'd all be like robots. The PMer was speaking casually, not carefully like he was entering a debate. Any casual talker might reffer to you in the same manner. You seem to live in debates and bring them into a complicated discution, and it seems to take the fun out of it when you keep on prooving that a certain side is "right" or "wrong." You seem to live in a world where it seems that everybody is supposed to see things completely in terms of logic. You might feel like you are seeing things through every view, but you are only using a certain type of logic, a type of logic that only comes in handy with debates. Wake up and feel an actual human emotion for once Bonesiii. we are, after all, humans, are we not? You make it seem like we must have a certain reaction to a certain stimuli. If you can't learn that the human mind has no laws to bound it, then you can't get on the good side of them in debates. Pardon me if I am not making any sence, as I'm not the best at doing that.
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Before I reply, I want to clear up part of what I meant, as I just said in a PM:

QUOTE(bonesiii)
...what I meant about feeling better [when proven wrong] was this: To me, understanding reality is very important, and cool. I like science, for example, and philosphy, theology, all that kinda stuff. I enjoy trying to understand the world (among other things). So to me, if I find out that I was "wrong" about something, all it means is there was something I didn't, in the past, understand very well, and being proven wrong and being able to admit it, and accept the more realistic opinion means that now I understand the world a little better. To me that's really cool, and that's why it pleases me. I don't mean to say that being "owned" makes everybody feel better--it definately doesn't. I guess, to me "truth-seeking debate" has nothing to do with "owning" so if both sides see debate this way, there's no risk of feelings being hurt.



QUOTE(D.Q @ Feb 3 2007, 12:02 AM)

QUOTE
And to people thinking like that PMer--let me tell you, one of the most exhilerating experiences possible is admitting when you're wrong.

QUOTE(Vezon Ultimate)

Ok, well that was fun wasn't it? Crushed, flattened and absotively posilutely disproven! Ok, this can be closed now.

Well, I doubt that feeling of being proved wrong is really that good....And I don't know why, but I sort of feel that being proved right can bring us closer to the truth than being proved wrong; there can be infinite wrong theories/points, but there can only be one truth. A wrong theory only gives us an example of a misconception, but a correct theory brings us the truth, and facts. So, what's so great about being proved wrong? Of course, my post has many flaws(compared to bones' blog entry, lol), but still, I think that being proved wrong isn't great.

I don't think you understood quite what I am saying, DQ... Let me quote something that ccso said in an older version of the S&T rules from before I was a staff member, and that I've kept around in my version of those rules, that I think helps explain:

QUOTE(ccso35)
This is also a forum where we can post our ideas and theories about Bionicle and where others can agree or disagree with them. Just because someone disagrees with you about your theory or idea doesn't mean they are attacking you. The discussion helps us make better theories. So if someone is saying they don't believe you or that you are wrong, read what they posted and then respond with your own arguments, not names or other flaming. As always, flaming will not be tolorated.

Now, as I've said in the Debate Terms Guide, "opinions" are also like theories, except not about Bionicle or a storyline, but about reality itself (see the Dictionary.com definition provided in the "Opinion" section in the guide, orange link in sig). Debate is all about different people with different opinions talking amongst each other about those opinions. I really think if we look at debate the way ccso is saying about theory discussions, it's a better experience, and even being proven wrong "helps us make better" opinions. And at the same time, it helps avoid flame, which is also something that's important to me when I'm posting in a debate topic, especially being a moderator.

Does that make sense?

Now to be clear, I'm not talking about taste, or preferences, or likes and dislikes. That stuff isn't a matter of logic, but just of preference. When it comes to Bionicle, I'm talking about figuring out what actually helps or hurts Bionicle's health as a franchise. smile.gif






QUOTE(EmperorWhenua ~ Lord of the Sith @ Feb 3 2007, 05:01 AM)

If someone were to lose a debate, would that person lose his pride in himself? If this were so, then that person would not be able to combat in another debate as well as in the previous one. On the other hand, if that person were to win the first debate, then his pride would be able to be exploited in the debate to come.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "pride", Emperor? Do you mean "self-esteem"? Or do you mean "ego"?

If you mean self-esteem, then what I'm saying is, if you look at debate my way, then that isn't a problem. Because losing a debate is just as good as winning--and either way, debate helps sharpen our logical skills, and helps us be more confident in the next debate. If you look it as defensive debate, and you look at it as important not to "lose", then yes, it can hurt your self esteem--but my whole point is that if you look at it my way, it can't. smile.gif

If you mean pride in the negative sense, in terms of egotism, I've already talked about that in the blog entry--hopefully you understand why that is a bad thing...





QUOTE

Now, if the debator were to win the first and lose the second, then he would, in theory, 'lose face' and not want to partake in a debate for a long time. This is a natural occurence (one that I am familiar with, too) and is a symbol of 'natural selection; the debator was not good enough to proceed to the next debate.

Again, this looks at debate as a "game"--almost like football seasons, lol. It just doesn't work that way, at least not on a forum like this. You are not banned for losing a debate, lol, and you still have the right to speak your mind, as long as it's done respectfully. Who wins or loses debate depends (or it should) on logic, so if I was wrong once, but now I come to a new debate, and logic is on my side in this one, what possible problem could I run into? What could stop me from speaking my mind there too? And how could having lost one debate have anything to do with my logic in the new debate?

In fact, I would counter that being able to admit when I'm wrong shows that I am, in a sense, better able to approach a new debate. If I come into debate, and everybody knows I can admit when I'm wrong, then they must work doubly hard to debate me--because they cannot just pretend that I say things despite knowing I'm wrong. Does that make sense?




QUOTE

So in short: A debate is a fight for honor and should be treated accordingly. A debate is to win, although, like you said, if you are obviously wrong, it is time to bail out.

Okay, then let me put it to you this way. I say that I am right on this (just as a hypothetical, I mean). I think that I have strong logical reasons to back me up; for example, years of experience with debates on BZP and seeing the results of the "defensive" way of looking at it (it often ends up in flame wars). Now, if that be the case, to me, a "defensive debater" is "obviously wrong", as it were. Do you see how I'm looking at it?

I'm not being 100% serious with this hypothetical, though, because I understand the view of debate as a fight for honor. This is a little better than plain old defensive debating, but see, you still need to realize that there can only be two basic kinds of debate--truth-seeking or defensive. I view debate as an activity demanding honor as well, but I do not view it as a "fight." That attitude is what leads to flame, in my experience, and that is bad. To me, making sure I'm being logical is the matter of honor. It doesn't seem honorable to me to just defend my view no matter what, which is what defensive debaters seem to do. So I think you're basically seeing this the same way, but I'm just not clear on if you agree that defensive debate isn't good?

QUOTE
As an extra measure to my reply, I believe in debating or arguing for a c[a]use or meaning. Any debates I enter are because I have a reason to doubt the other's judgement.

I agree. Nothing wrong with that. What I'm saying is, I think it's also important to be clear in your mind that you could actually be wrong. For example; the cause in a typical Bionicle debate might be to show that removing gears was actually a good decision for the health of Bionicle, because I believe that logic supports that view better than the opposite. The meaning being that the goal in that debate is to figure out what is actually helping and what isn't.



QUOTE
One example is in a religeous debate; if I have reason to enter, or if the other's belief is dissagreeing with mine and I believe that my logic is superior, I will fight to the death. Almost all the debates I enter are either for a greater good or for honor. I am a duelist, and I adore an honor-related fight. If honor is the prize and I have the advantage, then I will duel 'till the end.

Nothing wrong with all that--I am simply suggesting that if it can be shown that you were wrong, then the honorable thing to do is admit it. And that there is no dishonor in being wrong, if you can admit it. smile.gif (Especially because once you admit it, and take up the more right opinion, you become right!)

Instead, in my mind, there is dishonor in sticking to an opinion that is clearly wrong, as shown in logical debate. To be clear--this doesn't mean we should not have "faith", whether in the religious sense of that word, or just in the sense that we might run into a situation where someone seems to have disproved the idea, but you sense that something is off and that you're missing something. In real life, this happens all the time--a person might feel intimidated by someone they're debating, and simply not be able to think of the right response fast enough. Usually, if you hold your ground in cases like this and think it over afterwords, you think of what you should have thought of, and realize you were right--that is, that the opponent was using a logical fallacy. "Faith" in that sense and in the religious sense is very good. Again, logic there is the key as well.

But online debates are different--we have time to proofread, to analyze more in-depth, and think of those things to say. It's not like spoken debate--and we can even analyze the exact structure of the opponent's logic and find the fallacies. That's why it's doubly important to understand logic well, really whether spoken or not.


QUOTE
Now, some debates and duels are for fun -- one example of this is the 'Downfall of Bionicle' topic, in wich I was directed to this blog entry, that I join for pleasure. I enjoy the action of a debate, and just love a debate or arguement in wich I think I can contribute somewhat.

Okay, but I hope you see why such a complaint topic/debate should not just be for fun. I understand that debating is fun and all, but are you implying that it doesn't matter in that topic who's right and who's wrong? That would be unwise... I don't want to presume that I understand what you mean by this, however, so I won't overthink this too much...


QUOTE

So I actually agree with the PMer in most areas, but not all. I suppose there is not much I can say about his thinking, as you have already covered it.

~EW~

Pretty much it appears I agree with you, actually, and I don't think you're agreeing with the PMer as much as you might think--you based your view on reasoning, as you said. I just think that you're still looking at it partly in terms of "defensive" debate, which isn't as good. You recall for example what I said about that in the "Debate" section in the Debate Terms Guide, for example? About how defensive debate can be used to justifcy flaming, and other lesser things like that? We agree that that is bad, right?









Kraggh--you appear to have misunderstood a lot of what I'm saying, and I've PMed you about this. It's difficult to compose a coherent reply to your comment without clearing up what I am saying first, so I'll hold off until you reply to my PM (my second one, that is). smile.gif

As far as human emotions go, see here:
QUOTE
This isn't a dry, boring, robotic life, being a logician.

I think that we have brains for a good reason (the reasons I think this get into religion, which we cannot discuss here, but regardless of that, we do have brains, not just emotions). Emotions aren't there to rule us--but then perhaps you did not intend it that way anyways. In terms of taste, I've talked about this a lot, but you really need to read the Debate Terms Guide to understand what I'm talking about.

If you read that and still don't understand what I'm saying, Kraggh, then my question to you is, if I "don't feel human emotions", then why exactly am I a fan of Bionicle? Bionicle is entertainment--why exactly am I here talking about entertainment in the first place if I don't feel emotions? laugh.gif I hope you see how... strange... that idea is... blink.gif (No offense. smile.gif)

I good way to sum up how I look at it is to compare to the old Star Trek idea of Vulcans--aliens who, being unhuman, tried to suppress all emotion and lived as robotic-like logicians (hence the I am not Spock joke, if you didn't understand that, lol). The vulcans often stated that humans were defined by emotions, and vulcans by logic.

That is not my view in the slightest--though the general goal of being logical is of course good. I believe that logic and emotion are both vital to humanity. Emotions are like a sense, like vision, like hearing, and they can help you understand the intent of what someone says (though this gets confusing, unfortunately, on the 'net), as one example (among hundreds). Yet, we cannot let our emotions rule us, because that would make us less than human (IMO)--it would basically make us animals--in fact, that would be like a form of robotism. We would only be able to do what our emotions programmed us to do. Emotions are really just chemical reactions, you know. Also, because different people have different personal tastes, and because by definition no one taste is better or worse than others, different things would please different people--and they would be "ruled" to do radically different things. That can get dangerous, because if we cannot control our actions, what happens when we get violent?

A healthy human mind has a balance of the two, in my opinion. When it comes to debate, logic must be central. When it comes to viewing/reading entertainment, emotion should be central (as two examples). To me, logic really means nothing without emotion, because if we can never feel pleasure or pain, then what point is there in logically figuring out things like right and wrong in the first place? And in the same way, emotion means nothing without logic--it's really just chemical reactions that if allowed to rule us uncontrrollably can cause a lot of harm. So we need to balance the two. You get the idea?

Anyways, this is getting really deep here, XD. The way we balance them is by choosing to like what we like, and not apologizing for that--but at the same time, respecting others' ability to like different things, and accepting that, logically, companies must appeal to majority tastes (for example). In other words, by seperating our emotions and tastes from our "should" opinions.

Again, I can't really respond to the rest of what you say without making sure you understand first where I'm coming from, and understanding where you are coming from too... The main mistake you seem to be making appears to be that you don't think truth exists as an absolute, which I can easily disprove, but I do not want to presume that that is what you meant, and it doesn't sound like it, from your first PM...

*long comment, lol*
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Ahh, felt I couldn't leave this comment out...

From all I've seen, all I've gathered from friends, and based on my own view, I think many people enter debates with no intent of finding any truth, because they are debating tastes merely. Their, and my opinions are based on what we like -- not the dictionary definition of it, p'raps, but the commonly used one -- and that is all we want to discuss. Make others see why we like what we do, pointing out things we don't think make good stories / sets, and trying to understand why other people see matters the way they do.

I, for one, am intrigued with the ways of the world, knowing how it works, all such stuff -- but I see those debates as discussion of preferences, not ways to find out what's best for the health of Bionicle. That is an honourable goal, bones, one which I greatly admire, but it is not one I am interested in including in debating. From what I see, these debates are outside the realm of Right and Wrong. They serve to exchange points of view and tastes.

P'raps this gives some insight in the ways of many people, p'raps not... but that's how I view it. Your way of 'Truth-Seeking Debates' is great, but not to be confused with casual discussion of tastes, I think. smile.gif

[PS: Lookin' forward to you-know-what tonight... if you are there! cool.gif ]

-Ikk
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QUOTE
Your way of 'Truth-Seeking Debates' is great, but not to be confused with casual discussion of tastes, I think.

I agree. (I explain this very clearly in the Debate Guide.) I think that confusion is what causes most of the problems in debates, actually--that's why it's important for us to be clear about what we mean.

This was part of what I felt caused problems in your "Downfall" topic, Kraggh, for example--that word doesn't, to most people, mean that you're talking only about tastes. You posted recently that you meant more of "downhill", but that word has the same meaning to most people, from what I've seen. Just one example, but it's a good one, I think, of the kind of confusion that makes a lot of "taste-discussion" posts look like "opinion-discussion" posts.
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Queen Anora Mac Tir
Feb 04 2007 04:34 AM
[quote name='bonesiii' date='Feb 3 2007, 03:49 PM']
[quote name='EmperorWhenua ~ Lord of the Sith' date='Feb 3 2007, 05:01 AM']
If someone were to lose a debate, would that person lose his pride in himself? If this were so, then that person would not be able to combat in another debate as well as in the previous one. On the other hand, if that person were to win the first debate, then his pride would be able to be exploited in the debate to come.[/quote]
Well, it depends on what you mean by "pride", Emperor? Do you mean "self-esteem"? Or do you mean "ego"?

If you mean self-esteem, then what I'm saying is, if you look at debate my way, then that isn't a problem. Because losing a debate is just as good as winning--and either way, debate helps sharpen our logical skills, and helps us be more confident in the next debate. If you look it as defensive debate, and you look at it as important not to "lose", then yes, it can hurt your self esteem--but my whole point is that if you look at it my way, it can't. smile.gif

If you mean pride in the negative sense, in terms of egotism, I've already talked about that in the blog entry--hopefully you understand why that is a bad thing...[/quote][/quote]


Yes, self-esteem. As you have already said, the ego is a bad guy in you. Kind of reminds my of Evil Lord Survurlode inside BZP. tongue.gif





[quote][quote]
Now, if the debator were to win the first and lose the second, then he would, in theory, 'lose face' and not want to partake in a debate for a long time. This is a natural occurence (one that I am familiar with, too) and is a symbol of 'natural selection; the debator was not good enough to proceed to the next debate.[/quote]
Again, this looks at debate as a "game"--almost like football seasons, lol. It just doesn't work that way, at least not on a forum like this. You are not banned for losing a debate, lol, and you still have the right to speak your mind, as long as it's done respectfully. Who wins or loses debate depends (or it should) on logic, so if I was wrong once, but now I come to a new debate, and logic is on my side in this one, what possible problem could I run into? What could stop me from speaking my mind there too? And how could having lost one debate have anything to do with my logic in the new debate?

In fact, I would counter that being able to admit when I'm wrong shows that I am, in a sense, better able to approach a new debate. If I come into debate, and everybody knows I can admit when I'm wrong, then they must work doubly hard to debate me--because they cannot just pretend that I say things despite knowing I'm wrong. Does that make sense?[/quote][/quote]


As I am a duelist, literaly, I am the kind to see things as a game and sport. This is just the way I am. I know this is not in concordance with your 'teachings', Master Jedi, but I find it rather effective when I use it. You may dissagree, or state that I have only fought weak debators, but I find the view of the debate as a sport (And ,henceforth, use defensive stances in debates.) as a rather good means of debating. It allows me to calm down my nerves; to realise in my mind that the world is not going to explode (Hehehe, tongue.gif ) in my face in the form of the opponents replies.

I am sorry, but the teachings that I recieve with my sword make me use defesive strategy, even though it does not seem realistic to you.



[quote]
So in short: A debate is a fight for honor and should be treated accordingly. A debate is to win, although, like you said, if you are obviously wrong, it is time to bail out.[/quote]
Okay, then let me put it to you this way. I say that I am right on this (just as a hypothetical, I mean). I think that I have strong logical reasons to back me up; for example, years of experience with debates on BZP and seeing the results of the "defensive" way of looking at it (it often ends up in flame wars). Now, if that be the case, to me, a "defensive debater" is "obviously wrong", as it were. Do you see how I'm looking at it?

I'm not being 100% serious with this hypothetical, though, because I understand the view of debate as a fight for honor. This is a little better than plain old defensive debating, but see, you still need to realize that there can only be two basic kinds of debate--truth-seeking or defensive. I view debate as an activity demanding honor as well, but I do not view it as a "fight." That attitude is what leads to flame, in my experience, and that is bad. To me, making sure I'm being logical is the matter of honor. It doesn't seem honorable to me to just defend my view no matter what, which is what defensive debaters seem to do. So I think you're basically seeing this the same way, but I'm just not clear on if you agree that defensive debate isn't good?


[quote]As an extra measure to my reply, I believe in debating or arguing for a c[a]use or meaning. Any debates I enter are because I have a reason to doubt the other's judgement.[/quote]
I agree. Nothing wrong with that. What I'm saying is, I think it's also important to be clear in your mind that you could actually be wrong. For example; the cause in a typical Bionicle debate might be to show that removing gears was actually a good decision for the health of Bionicle, because I believe that logic supports that view better than the opposite. The meaning being that the goal in that debate is to figure out what is actually helping and what isn't.



[quote]Now, some debates and duels are for fun -- one example of this is the 'Downfall of Bionicle' topic, in wich I was directed to this blog entry, that I join for pleasure. I enjoy the action of a debate, and just love a debate or arguement in wich I think I can contribute somewhat.[/quote]
Okay, but I hope you see why such a complaint topic/debate should not
just be for fun. I understand that debating is fun and all, but are you implying that it doesn't matter in that topic who's right and who's wrong? That would be unwise... I don't want to presume that I understand what you mean by this, however, so I won't overthink this too much...[/quote][/quote]

I am not implying that I enter a debate for the sake of being in there, not caring who is right or wrong, but in the following: I will, once again, use my entering the 'Downfall' topic. I am a rather formidable and powerful force in the many debates I entered in, but this is a curse/blessing to me. After a while, debates do not come in a steady collumn, like now. I am a rather lax individual, but I just love a debate I can have insight in. After a while, I start prowling around for a debate to join and if I like the subject and/or think I have some wisdom to give, I join.

This is one thing I want to emphasise on: The difference between wisdom and knowlege. Now, as you are a logician, most likely do not need my stating this, but I must point out that you use too much knowlege and not enough wisdom in your debates. I was in an arguement with a psychologist a while ago who used the defensive manner of the debate. He lost; miserably. I kept showering him with my wisdom and challenged him with my wisdom. (If you wish, I could send to you the entire conversation that we had so you can analize them and say your thuinking in them. But, only if you want.) He had run out of stem and the arguement was over at that.

Now back to what I was saying: In my opinion, your use of facts is a bit much. Facts are based on knowlege and does not allow the investigation of opinions, but wisdom does, and it gives a user of wisdom an edge, as he can come close to the other's thinking. This can be used to a great extent to corner the other's thinking. Of course, this is only my opinion of your style... rolleyes.gif



[quote]
So I actually agree with the PMer in most areas, but not all. I suppose there is not much I can say about his thinking, as you have already covered it.


~EW~
[/quote]
Pretty much it appears I agree with you, actually, and I don't think you're agreeing with the PMer as much as you might think--you based your view on reasoning, as you said. I just think that you're still looking at it partly in terms of "defensive" debate, which isn't as good. You recall for example what I said about that in the "Debate" section in the Debate Terms Guide, for example? About how defensive debate can be used to justifcy flaming, and other lesser things like that? We agree that that is bad, right?[/quote]

I am glad we are mostly in the same concordance. I only regret that your teachings do not comply with my beliefs and strategies. But as I imly wisdom, and not knowlege, to my debates and disscussions, I will investgate your thinking.

And yes, I am aware that spam in debates = bad. But I do not remember a single debate I have entered that turned into flame, however. biggrin.gif (Do you see that holy ring above my head?)

~EWwwwwwwwwwaitamunute!

JEDI

Arghhh! I cannot get the stupid quotes to line up. But I think that you can identify my words among yours. I will try to make it more translatable.


Legend: bold = me in this reply
underlined = me in the past reply
italics = you
    • 0
QUOTE
As I am a duelist, literaly, I am the kind to see things as a game and sport. This is just the way I am. I know this is not in concordance with your 'teachings', Master Jedi, but I find it rather effective when I use it. You may dissagree, or state that I have only fought weak debators, but I find the view of the debate as a sport (And ,henceforth, use defensive stances in debates.) as a rather good means of debating. It allows me to calm down my nerves; to realise in my mind that the world is not going to explode (Hehehe, ) in my face in the form of the opponents replies.

I am sorry, but the teachings that I recieve with my sword make me use defesive strategy, even though it does not seem realistic to you.

Again, nothing wrong with all that--what I'm disagreeing with is the idea there there is "elimination" with debates. You understand that? I mean, when you lose debates, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to debate again, especially if you can admit when wrong. smile.gif

And I know you're joking, but I'm not really saying this is "teachings" -- it's just my opinion, and I don't claim it's 100% fact. It's just that everything you're raising, I've already considered in-depth years ago, and I really think that in some ways, I'm seeing this issue a little more clearly. But you probably think the same thing, lol--this is why logic is the key, because even when figuring out issues of logic, wisdom, and everything, logic is the key. happy.gif



QUOTE
This is one thing I want to emphasise on: The difference between wisdom and knowlege. Now, as you are a logician, most likely do not need my stating this, but I must point out that you use too much knowlege and not enough wisdom in your debates.


Lol. Well, I'd disagree, of course, but to debate that point would require us to define "wisdom." I'm not sure how you're using the word; it may be different from how I use the word. To me, logic is the key to wisdom, as well as understanding; I do not, actually, see knowledge as the most important thing. This is why I'm a logician, lol. Knowledge without wisdom can be very dangerous, actually--just as one (very extreme) example, a lot of the senior staff of Nazi Germany had a lot of knowledge. But they lacked wisdom, and believed things that were just plain rediculous, logically speaking. And it got waaaay out of hand, deadly out of hand.

When it comes to "Bionicle wisdom", I see my view as the wise one. Not for egotistic reasons, but because countless debates have gone on about the issues such as the ones in Kraggh's topic, and logic always supports the opinions I now hold in the end. Of course, that's because I have been wrong many times, and have changed my mind, as I described in the blog entry. And so far, nobody's ever been able to show logically that I'm wrong now, though they have tried, oh how they have tried. To me, this means that it's "wisdom".

However.

I would agree that I have not been as "wise" as I could be in presentation. (As I said.) One of the main problems is that each different person responds better to a different presentation style, but still, I could do better in ways that aren't related to that; trying my best. But despite these flaws that I admittedly have, the challenge I can always raise is this: "Regardless of what you think of me, look at my logic. Unless you can show that I have made a logical mistake, I believe anybody can see that I am right, if they have an open mind." Logic is the key to wisdom, whether it is me or my opponent who needs wisdom, or both, lol. smile.gif




QUOTE
Now back to what I was saying: In my opinion, your use of facts is a bit much. Facts are based on knowlege and does not allow the investigation of opinions, but wisdom does, and it gives a user of wisdom an edge, as he can come close to the other's thinking. This can be used to a great extent to corner the other's thinking. Of course, this is only my opinion of your style...


Well, I think I do that, actually. tongue.gif Again, though, I think in terms of wisdom, the most important thing to make clear is that I am basing my opinions on sound logic, because that is what matters in the end, regardless of debate style. smile.gif





QUOTE
Arghhh! I cannot get the stupid quotes to line up. But I think that you can identify my words among yours. I will try to make it more translatable.

I blame Survurlode. tongue.gif Yes, it was understandable. smile.gif

    • 0
Absolute truth is far more important then one or two people's egos. If someone's feelings must be hurt for a great understanding to be had, then so be it. I for one agree with your thoughts. If you want to battle for honor, then get two pistols and walk ten paces before turning around and shooting faster then the other man.
    • 0
Photo
The Egg Of Choas
Feb 05 2007 09:38 AM
I hate losing debates. that's why i never get into them. My mantra (or one of them )is never argue.

DAT
    • 0
QUOTE(bonesiii @ Feb 3 2007, 05:49 PM)

Again, I can't really respond to the rest of what you say without making sure you understand first where I'm coming from, and understanding where you are coming from too... The main mistake you seem to be making appears to be that you don't think truth exists as an absolute, which I can easily disprove, but I do not want to presume that that is what you meant, and it doesn't sound like it, from your first PM...

*long comment, lol*



kaukau.gifJust wondering, did you mean "disaprove"? Anyway, I meant that as a fact about the human mind and nothing outside of that. I think that it takes more than just looking at it your way, I think you have to ]i]want]/i] to look at it your way and truly feel it. I'm trying to keep this post short, as I usually get confuciong and end up making less sence when I make them long, unlike you do.


By the way, what's the code for that Spock emote? Oh and your not him? Blast, there goes my theory tongue.gif .
    • 0
QUOTE(Kraggh: Turaga of Shadows @ Feb 16 2007, 07:01 PM)

QUOTE(bonesiii @ Feb 3 2007, 05:49 PM)

Again, I can't really respond to the rest of what you say without making sure you understand first where I'm coming from, and understanding where you are coming from too... The main mistake you seem to be making appears to be that you don't think truth exists as an absolute, which I can easily disprove, but I do not want to presume that that is what you meant, and it doesn't sound like it, from your first PM...

*long comment, lol*



kaukau.gifJust wondering, did you mean "disaprove"? Anyway, I meant that as a fact about the human mind and nothing outside of that. I think that it takes more than just looking at it your way, I think you have to ]i]want]/i] to look at it your way and truly feel it. I'm trying to keep this post short, as I usually get confuciong and end up making less sence when I make them long, unlike you do.


By the way, what's the code for that Spock emote? Oh and your not him? Blast, there goes my theory tongue.gif .


Lol. Well, Kraggh, that's a good point, and that's why I try so hard to help people see why it's desirable. Of course, I don't always do a great job of it, XD. But look at me--I'm a pretty happy guy, and it ain't 'cuz I'm well off or anything in ways people usually think of it. A lot of people go through life miserable, blaming their misery on outside bad luck and the like. Financially, my family ain't doing suh well, ya know, but I am not miserable--not to make a sob story, XD, but my point is, I really think this is a recipe for a better outlook on life. Really, I think it's how humans are supposed to be. shrugs.gif

Code for any image can be found, BTW, by right-clicking, clicking Properties. At least on PCs XD. Specific code for old Vulcy:

CODE
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/bonesiii/Emot/iheartlogic2.gif


And no, I meant "disprove." I mean, if you did think that there are no absolutes, I disagree, and I could easily show why I disagree, beyond a shadow of a doubt. In case you're curious, it's because that statement is an absolute--"There are no absolutes" contradicts itself. Heh. Disprove means to do the opposite of prove--to show that something cannot be true. Hope that helps...
    • 0
QUOTE
Pretty much it appears I agree with you, actually, and I don't think you're agreeing with the PMer as much as you might think--you based your view on reasoning, as you said. I just think that you're still looking at it partly in terms of "defensive" debate, which isn't as good. You recall for example what I said about that in the "Debate" section in the Debate Terms Guide, for example? About how defensive debate can be used to justifcy flaming, and other lesser things like that? We agree that that is bad, right?


kaukau.gifI just thought I'd let you know this: it was Emperor Whenua who sent that PM to me. Here's everything else he said.

QUOTE
Just to let you know, in the Dowfall of Bionicle topic, you said that Bones is very hard to argue with. I must let you know that he is a logician, and he analyzes every move. He is almost impossible to beat in an arguement or debate. I myself am a veteran with him, and I tell you this with experience.

If you make a mistake in strategy, you will most likely fail. Just look at the link in my sig, and you will se how well-versed he is in debating. wink.gif

~EW~

QUOTE
Facts are his only feakness. He does not pay attention to opinions, but if you can make up a team to oppose him, he will fall. Bonesiii is a debating monster, and can hold his ground with great cunning.

I always wanted to enter a debate with him again and win, as the last one I had with him was a tie. It seems that he is currently in a tie with you and those who side with you (like me). If we can base a large opiinion to oppose him and use a fact to battle his, he will most likely cesede.

Do you have any debating background?

~EW~

QUOTE
QUOTE

kaukau.gifBy the way, next time you get into a depate with him again I'd be more than willing to join you. For two reasons: I want to get my number of posts up and probably for the same reason you would be argueing with him in the first place. Just PM me when you need me.


If I get into a public debate with him, I will do so. I prefer private debates in one-on-one discussions. But I would be more than happy to use any help possible in debate topics.

~EW~



kaukau.gifAnd that's the whole "shabang" as my algebra teacher would say. You can make comments if you want.
    • 0
Photo
Invictor Crudelitatis
Feb 03 2008 06:28 AM
Well, I don't like being disproven as well, but when someone carefully explains me why and how I'm wrong, then I eventually accept it.

9.gif Crudelious 9.gif
Thinks Bones can sometimes be harsh
    • 0

Welcome To The Bones Blog

You must understand this: that in creation, there is destruction. In destruction, there is rebirth. There is no such thing as void; all things are in flux.
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Important Entries:


Evil Lord Survurlode:
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Evil Lord Survurlode
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BZP's "Some-won Dyed!1!1!" Culture

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A Magical Forest Called Bionicle
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Wall of History:
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The following Pet Peeves were identified by BZPower members in a contest for use in an allergenic weapon to be used against Evil Lord Survurlode. These photos taken by me when the Peeves were in captivity. Peeve names link to full bios.

Grand Prize: Flame
By Wysp

Adult form (click thumbnail):


2nd Place: The Misinformed
By Electric Turahk


3rd Place: Ignorance
By Kopaka's Apprentice


4th Place: Corrector
By xccj


5th Place: Double Posters
By EmperorWhenua


6th Place: CAPS Locker
By Toa of Dancing


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By Lluvio


8th Place: Endtag Argh
By Kakaru


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By Darkspine Neya


10th Place: TB-RPG Overlord
By Nero


11th Place: Polloflower
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By Kohena: Great Warrior of Pie


13th Place: Toktomee
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By Arpy


15th Place: Shortenator
By Axinian the Chronicler


16th Place: Pica'huge
By ~Kativa~


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DoomAH:


Stolen Thunder:

Evil Lord Survurlode Says...



"Brave Knight Binkmeister thought he could banish me with new software. Ha! Lord Survurlode is immortal--I survived because I retained a connection with the One Refresh To Rule Them All. Sauron tried to survive in the telephone system with his One Ring--but that dastardly Frodo tossed it into Mount Dume. Sauron was lost. But the Refresh still exists, oh yes, and as long as it does, I live also, to bring my floods to the BZP forums!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode,
in a BZP interview


"Killeth them with kindness. That's what my mother taught me. So I figured, instead of trying to fight Brave Knight Binkmeister's attempt to overthrow me... I would instead give him the one thing he loves most. Bubble Wrap. Not only him, but all of his followers. BZP members once knew me as their common enemy. But now... am I just a kind old man who has free Bubble Wrap?"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"Why in the world am I calling him Brave Knight Binkmeister?! That term sounds... nice. It makes him sound like a hero! NO!!! He's my enemy! No, no, henceforth he shalt be known as 'Cowardly Scum Binkmeister'!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"Yes, my new minion, you now see the dastardly plans BZP members have--they seek to avoid my floods by getting on in the morning or the late evening, or worse, the nighttime. Sauron might have been a sleepless creature of the night, but personally I can't stand coffee. But not to worry! You, my friend, will go out and enslave the members. You will sit enthroned on their shelves, hung from their walls like a cursed mark, and wrapped around their wrists like handcuffs. Even they shalt know the constraints of time! Behold, the Evil Clock!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"What is that you sayeth, Evil Clock? BZPower is now five long years old? So what? I am thousands upon thousands of years old! I am, in fact, as old as the ocean that I command with my floods! I am even older than clocks like you! What's that? Yeah, yeah, but I just don't feel like AARP is for me..."

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"What do you mean, I'm not speaking in proper Old English? I am Lord Survurlode. If I say this is Old English, it iseth!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"What doth mine eyes spyeth? I see-eth a member attempting to posteth! No! I shalt not alloweth it! Rise, ye Floodes! Riseth! ...What? No, I ameth noteth tryingeth hardereth to speaketh Oldeth Englisheth! Ye Silly Clocke!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"No, I am NOT an April Fool's Joke! Just because my power increases tenfold on that day doesn't mean my existence depends on it."

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"Frodo? Why would I be scared of him? He sailed off to the West--it means he died, yo! Besides, the One Refresh cannot be melted in some volcano. It would take a... No, wait... Sorry, that information is classified. Muahahahaha!"

--Evil Lord Suvurlode


"The term 'Yo' can be Old English! Yeesh!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"See, my problem is that I am far older than Old English. To me it's that newfangled slang those Anglo-Saxon types speak. You'll forgive me if I get it confused with the five million different versions that came out since then. Yes, you will. Or else."

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"..."

--Evil Lord Survurlode's
Kopeke Impression


"What do you mean, it's really 'Mount Doomah?!'"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"You are getting veeery sleepy. You need more Bubble Wrap. That's right, little member. Wallow in bubble wrap forever. Say it with me now. 'Must. Have. More.'"

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"Brave Knight--I mean, Cowardly Sponge Binkmeister has attempted to attacketh me once again! But lo, I am-- What? Sponge? Is that what I said? I meant Scum. Brave Scum Binkmeister-- What now? Oh, be quiet, minion."

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"No, I am not a girl!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode,
on his power over water


"Muahahahahahahahaha*cough* *hack* *gurgle* ..... *ahem* Must remember to watch the evil laugh when the floodwaters get that high..."

--Evil Lord Survurlode


"Oh, that's an easy question. See, Sauron's One Telephone Ring looked like a metal ring, right? Well, the One Refresh looks like a ring made out of those green arrows... like on that refresh button up there. Wait... why am I telling you this?!"

--Evil Lord Survurlode,
in a BZP interview


"No, I do not get rusty! This is Stainless Steel! What? Yes, yes! They had stainless steel thousands of years ago. Yeesh."

--Evil Lord Survurlode

Gallery Of Explosions

Because explosions are the answer.





























Profundities

"While it's all well and good for someone to turn the other cheek in daily life, in times of great hardship another thought comes to mind instead; namely that one cannot turn a blind eye to the actions of evil and still call himself good."
---Nako



"This is a discussion forum for a reason; it's a place where opinions can be discussed and debated civilly, not where one person can claim their opinion as fact and all others as "just opinions." Every person should, however, support their opinions with facts and evidence of all kinds."




"'The challenge of being a Biological chronicler is understanding why Lego are using another method to sell better. It gets boring using the same ones all the time. Variety is the spice of selling, after all.'
— A Biological chronicler"



"I could convince a thousand people that the moon is made of cheese... and yet it would remain as rocky as ever."



"This is simple, people! If it hurts to hit yourself with a hammer, then don't do it!"



"A famous drummer sits down to do a drum solo, but he has to keep his solo up for five minutes. Does he do all his amazing stuff first? no! If he did that, he would loose all attention because the end would be so boring. If he were smart, he would start out with something simple, and then add to its complexity as he goes along, so that more people would be into it.

The point is, writing either a drum solo, or is like a mountain, the bigger the base, the higher it can get, and the more amazing it is. Think about it, when building a mountain of dirt or sand, you need to slowly create your huge base, then as you build towards the peak things get faster and easier to pile on. The High points are where the story is fast paced and we are reaching the climax--what we just left on the last mountain of story we had (the MU story arch), and now Greg is building a new story mountain for us."

Gallery Of Galaxies

~through the macroscope~































Sigisms

QUOTE
92% of people have moved on from Gregorian chants. If you are part of the 8% that still listens to real music, copy and paste this into your sig.


QUOTE
Least Favorite Edit Of Your Least Favorite Post On Your Most Favorite Day Of The Month?


QUOTE
Secret Info: The Red Star is Tahu's mobile space mansion, complete with servants.


QUOTE
Join the petiton for ban bad grammer toady!


QUOTE
9009 Ways To Say "I Heart Spam"


QUOTE
92% of all teenagers claim they're in the 8% that hasn't moved on to rap.
If you are part of the 0% that still uses real math, copy and paste this into your sig.


QUOTE
What Is Your Alter-Ego's Imaginary Friend's Least Favorite Pet Collar?

Certificates Of Approval

Various award imagery and suchnot:






(Above from Makaru; resized to fit.)










(Resized to fit.)


















The above earned twice.




















Certificates Of Approval

Part 2









Needs sized down



Needs sized down













/---------------!.!----------------\
/This blog has been approved by \
/--------------Saiph--------------\
/----------------------------------\
/-For demonstrating outstanding-\
/~~~~RHYME and REASON~~~~\
\----------------!.!-----------------/











_bonesquotes_i

QUOTE
Logic is the key.


QUOTE
I am insane. I know that I am insane. In fact, I know that I am so insane, that I am incapable of realizing that I am insane. Therefore, I know that I am not insane.


QUOTE
Forgetting things since.... umm....


QUOTE
Creativity should not be confused with nuclear weapons.


QUOTE
I heart logic.


QUOTE
Only dead things do not change. Much.


QUOTE
Pay attention now. Repeat after me. "Bones. Can. Be. Wrong."


QUOTE
The problem is, "Tradition for tradition's sake" is like flying blind in an airplane. It's like saying as you approach a mountain "But we've always flown in this direction before... why would we change direction? It isn't the tradition!"


QUOTE
Remember that -- clever absurdity, designed to harmonize with certain tastes, is the key to originality.


QUOTE
Ironicles.


QUOTE
People are like snowflakes. No two are the same.


QUOTE
Yes, the Toa will win somehow. But let me give you a challenge. Write a story. In which the good guys win, or the bad guys win, doesn't matter. But write it with only introducing the challenges that the winner must overcome, and avoid showing how the winner wins. Just set up the problem, then skip to the end:

"In the end, this character wins, somehow."

Now, do you think this is a successful format for a story, that anybody would really want to read? [...] Readers demand that you as writer have thought through the "how" of the story.


QUOTE
Where is this idea coming from?


QUOTE
Makutarahk


QUOTE
[L]et's not mince words here -- all LEGO products are toys. It's a toy company, in the toy business. There's nothing wrong with that.


QUOTE
[A] wise Daoist once said that a name is merely a label. If a person calls me a "nerd", then that is their label for me. If a person calls me a "human", that is a label. If they call me "bonesiii", that is a label. I would simply reply that, if "nerd" is the term they wish to apply to me, like "human", then so be it -- I would thus be proud of that label, because I am proud of who I am.


QUOTE
I'm not telepathic.


QUOTE
I don't know if this is just the way I'm wired, but I don't really think like "hey, wanna be my friend?" I just be myself, treat others with respect and friendliness, and those who would make good friends just sorta show up. And I really don't think like "well, you're not my friend, you are, you aren't" etc. Anybody can be my friend.


QUOTE
*revives topic, only to kill it seconds later*


QUOTE
My two pieces of eight.


QUOTE
Ha ha! Voriki myth still isn't dead? It's been so long since the constant flow of these topics stopped I guess I thought Voriki had finally kicked the bucket. Well, I hate to put another nail in the old guy's coffin, but...

Topic closed.

I Heart Logic

_bonesquotes_ii

QUOTE
Ahhhhh, the sweet smell of complaint topics in July!


QUOTE
I think Evil Lord Survurlode is out to get me.


QUOTE
Bionicle doesn't revolve around ANY one fan. Not even you.


QUOTE
Bionicle does NOT age with its fans.


QUOTE
If something absolutely has to be done for the greater good, it is by definition NOT evil.


QUOTE
Think, guys, think! You have brains! Use them!


QUOTE
Logic is not some meaningless buzzword you can throw around like pie, at least not as long as I, an actual logician, am here.


QUOTE
Common myth. The answer is: "Yes, if you are an ancient Greek."


QUOTE
Last I checked, most of us aren't ancient Greeks. tongue.gif Some of us are ancient Geeks, but...


QUOTE
Besides, show me a brown rock, and I'll use your logic on you. "That's not a rock, it's hardened lava."


QUOTE
The best symbol of stone would be gray. But it would probably sell almost as bad as brown -- LEGO needed a "flashy" color, more like what Ta, Ga, and Le Toa have.


QUOTE
Do not insult cheese.


QUOTE
Omi's right.


QUOTE
Forty-two.

(Four eight fifteen sixteen twenty-three... *ahem*)


QUOTE
Logic! Why don't they teach logic in these schools?


QUOTE
Can you imagine MNOG ending with the Turaga and Matoran executing Ahkmou?


QUOTE
So here's the question: If LEGO working harder by listening to fans is "lazy", then wouldn't they be "lazy" if they listened to you -- a fan?


QUOTE
You don't need to hate to say it.


QUOTE
Four extra letters. "Bionicle sets." How hard is that?

Actually, three extra letters since the s just moves.


QUOTE
If they are "Bionicles", then you are "History".


QUOTE
BZPers are often the exception, not the rule.

::celestial_drink::

_bonesquotes_iii

QUOTE
Of course it's cruel -- did you think bad guys were Mother Teresa?


QUOTE
It isn't like I hide it, but it also isn't like I go up to random students at college at say "Hey, I like Bionicle, isn't that something?!"


QUOTE
One man's junk is another man's treasure.


QUOTE
I had the same theory in ages past, and Greg personally disproved it.


QUOTE
The thing can destroy time, man. You guard those kinda things.


QUOTE
Brevity is the soul.


QUOTE
Which I suppose is a fancy way of saying, "I have no idea."


QUOTE
I attack my own theories. I'm weird like that.


QUOTE
If only books could be updated like web pages.


QUOTE
Bionicle was supposedly a betrayal of everything LEGO stands for, its pieces far too clunky, a horrible turn away from the more "intelligent" Technic and a total stabbing in the back of the good old brick, an insult to AFOLS, evidence of a mythical trend away from the construction toy, far too violent, etc.


QUOTE
It's really pretty simple:

Gadunka is one of the "coolest" sets ever. Most inventive, most unusual, most striking. Thus, he is horrible.


QUOTE
Of course they're weird. All Bionicle names are supposed to be weird. Show me the Bionicle name that is "normal".


QUOTE
You just completely contradicted yourself. If Mata Nui was working out great, then wouldn't Metru Nui have made less money?



QUOTE
If that's greedy, then you are greedy for driving in a car to get somewhere far away fast, for wearing shoes so you can walk at a reasonable pace without cutting your feet, using silverware to better eat your food, using a telephone to avoid having to make a trip and speak, using a computer to type a forum post when you could walk personally to everybody's house and speak what you just said over and over and over again.... At least 2000 times to account for all the possible active BZP members, and preferably about five million times -- and you'd have to go door to door throughout the whole world to even figure out which people were Bionicle fans anyways before you started confusing monks in Tibet with strange words like "Kongu" and "Cordak". All within your own lifetime, regardless of whatever else you had wanted to do in your life.

And forget speech. You have to scratch out the message with your fingernails in stone. Then maybe you wouldn't be greedy. Maybe.



QUOTE
Nobody would surprise me, so it's probably Makuta. But I went with Hydraxon, because he's a weapons master and it would make sense, no?


QUOTE
Why didn't I think of that earlier?


QUOTE
I don't just ask rhetorical questions -- I answer them.


QUOTE
I knew you'd say that.


QUOTE
You're a body with a head. So what?


QUOTE
A simple conversion is not a business plan to actually get two radically different markets to behave as if they were the same.


QUOTE
Um, hello? Are my posts invisible?


QUOTE
Universe go poof.

We All Live In An

_bonesquotes_iiii

QUOTE
I hate typing Roman numerals above three.


QUOTE
I always find these topics funny -- everybody goes in circles, pointing to the exact same aspect of the set and going "See that? So it's obvious it's horrible! How can you not see that?", and then someone else saying, "See that? It's obvious it's awesome! How can you not see that?"


QUOTE
Obviously, not everybody sees I to I.


QUOTE
They have their uses -- like if you're making a MOC that's supposed to be a light green faceless humanoid.


QUOTE
I hate it when I can't tell if someone's joking.


QUOTE
Yes, that's an excuse to be lazy.


QUOTE
Hold on just a second. I think you have things backwards. Mata Nui was not paradise -- it was a place of horror and war for a thousand years!


QUOTE
Lol.


QUOTE
I'm a logician. I can tell you that your argument does not merely sound illogical. It is.


QUOTE
Yeah, that'd be bad. Next question?


QUOTE
We'd still have wooden ducks, no plastic bricks, and definately no LEGO if change was prevented. Really, we wouldn't even have that.


QUOTE
It is unfortunate that it's this way (at least for us). But it is. We might as well come to grips with it.


QUOTE
And I walk away in peace.


QUOTE
You have no idea how many times I've read this style of opening to this kind of topic, man. I must admit I am very very tired of it.

*deeeeep breath*

*shakes head madly*

Okay, I'm good.


QUOTE
My memory doesn't go back that far.


QUOTE
If I didn't agree with something, I'd try to find out the reasons for it before doing anything else, which is something I think some people forget to do and instead they dig themselves a hole for no reason.


QUOTE
Lol, I think you missed the point -- BR isn't going to think your forum deserves approval if he has to be told it exists.


QUOTE
I'm a coolomaniac.


QUOTE
But I like spam!
Wait...


QUOTE
This is not a country. This is a website. Countries are led by governments. Websites are owned by owners. Countries are places you physically exist in, and may have difficulty leaving. Websites are places YOU choose to go. Countries are places you may be born in, or grow up in, etc.

BZPower is a place YOU sign an agreement in order to join. Blame cannot be placed on us when a member violates that agreement. And if a member chooses not to like that agreement anymore, they are free to leave at will. If a member violates the agreement they made with us, we are justified in punishing the member as agreed.


QUOTE
I'm a logician -- I think in terms of what makes sense all the time. I don't just agree -- I know why I agree, and I think my reasons are pretty sound.


QUOTE
If I'm breaking a rule, it's because I gave myself permission to allow myself an exception, thus I am not technically breaking it.


QUOTE
[A]lthough Evil Lord Survurlode does seem to be making a bit of a comeback, just like Sauron, so we might have an epic war that will spawn a novel and three giant books of a trilogy soon... but yeah...


QUOTE
I object to the wording of this question.


QUOTE
Huzzah?

I'm A Doctor, Not A Great Being

_bonesquotes #whatever

QUOTE
Ever had one of those moments where you think you just passed into an alternate timeline? This is one. ()_o


QUOTE
Rants are based on pompous egos and desire to pick a fight. Not intelligence.


QUOTE
The Monster on LOST is Makuta.


QUOTE
Cynics are some of the most naive people on the planet. They hear someone claim things are bad, and they accept it without question.


QUOTE
I'm a realist with an imagination.


QUOTE
I blame Survurlode.


QUOTE
You see a flamer, your response should not be to just flame him back -- you lower yourself to his level if you do.


QUOTE
Let's open that can of worms, as unpleasant as it might be. [...] *I'm not afraid of you, worms!*


QUOTE
"Transformation" can be as simple as a bomb rearranging a building into a debris field.


QUOTE
Far better to be proven wrong than to be wrong without knowing it.


QUOTE
I remember when I was a kid, and I was just playing around, I didn't know this stuff, so I said gas prices were five dollars at my play gas station.

My dad laughed, said gas would never be that expensive.


QUOTE
Toa carrying rifles... as they ride their space shuttles into... Klingon territory...


QUOTE
Kazi [ha]s Rahkshi staffs. (Oooh, Kazi=evil??)


QUOTE
Take an election between two candidates. Obviously, both candidates will get votes. However, one will get more votes, and one will get less. You would be, in this example, voting for the one with less votes (Mr. Olderfanson). You see why the fact that you, one person, did vote for that guy, doesn't prove that he won the election? [...] "Mr. Newerfanson" won the election.


QUOTE
o_O


QUOTE
In general, I do enjoy debates--but I don't enjoy being flamed, no. Nor do I enjoy wasting time when I have tons of PMs I need to reply to and top secret reference projects to work on and all that responding to things that could have been cleared up with more thought before posting, heh. Debates can still get tedious when it seems (please note "seems"!) that a few people refuse to approach them with an open mind.


QUOTE
<_<
>_>
<_>


QUOTE
I didn't even spell "the" right.


QUOTE
Lol. I never said I'm always right! Yeesh, what do I have to do to convince you guys I don't think that? Purposefully take wrong positions or something?


QUOTE
Guess what? I could draw before I learned to write, but does that mean I should get all huffy and insulted at the fact that not everybody shares my particular talent? This is just absurd, isn't it? Did you honestly think that everybody has the same talents and gains proficiency at the same time?



QUOTE
When someone much older than you was a kid, LEGO was wooden toys. [fogie teeth voice]"These newfangled plastic things are insulting! As if there isn't money to be made in good old fashioned woodblock toys!"[/fogie teeth voice]


QUOTE
Can we sing kumbaya yet? Sing it! Koooooooo----oom---bah-----yaaaaaaaaahhhhhh.

Or something... Sing it! You don't even have to agree with me! Just sing it anyways, maaan!

Sing!


QUOTE
Your mistake is that you are thinking in terms of a simplistic "formula" of strength, and thinking that can be used to predict everything. It can't--every situation is different, and sometimes a weak Matoran might catch a glimpse of a passing Rahkshi while a powerful "Toa Ultimaultrasuper" might get blasted to bits when the same Rahkshi actually attacks. You need to be realistic--think in terms of the situation. Stories are based on that--they are a "game of seconds and inches" where dangers both big and small can occur to both powerful and weak people, and how you perform depends on your brains and the time you have to prepare more than your actual power level.


QUOTE
Why did the entirely robotic Bohrok need teeth? Someone explain how that is okay but teeth in Piraka isn't?


QUOTE
Phew. Now, to post, and see if I maxed the text limit out.

Yabo! Hahaha!

_bonesquotes #whatever.2

QUOTE
Thanks X. Thanks D. Thanks X and D. XD


QUOTE
I lazy.


QUOTE
You can make any innovation look bad if you point to the non-innovative ways (the old "normal" ways) and claim they must be followed blindly.


QUOTE
But what I don't get about it is -- why the apparent desire to kill characters off for no reason? In real life you meet tons of people who you will never meet again, and they're not dead. Is that to you a problem? I don't get it -- you'd go insane if you tried to stay in touch with every random old lady that said hi when you were walking the dog...


QUOTE
Yes, my post in this topic is product placement. So sue me.


QUOTE
In addition, high gravity affects spacetime on a fundamental level, slowing time down and bending the spatial brane. Not to be confused with the spacious brain.


QUOTE
It would create a field of electrogravimetry that would pull all nearby matter in and then make it explode. The explosion cloud would take the form of an anchovy.


QUOTE
There's only a slim chance that we exist.


QUOTE
I love taking myself out of context.


QUOTE
I think it's admirable to be careful not to offend people where it makes sense. But at some point, you have to be willing to stand up for yourself and be confident enough that if someone comes at you with an unreasonable accusation, you don't take it.


QUOTE
I think aliens invaded already and have fooled us into thinking they are mere animals who "meow".


QUOTE
Good stories aren't puppet shows. They are tales of life, with realistic characters -- people -- living out their lives, with really minimal "guiding" by the author.


QUOTE
Oh goody, a complainer to blast to oblivion.


QUOTE
To begin with, I disagree strongly with pretending it is "killing off", rather than a serious story being told, with serious themes and life in the story. Characters aren't "killed off". They die.

I find this term somewhat offensive, because it implies the writer kills the character like a TV show host telling a contestant to leave. This is not a game show. It is the events of the storyline that kill the character. That term is merely a psychological shield to avoid the emotion of the moment in the story. IMO, that's a kind of immaturity.


QUOTE
Um.


QUOTE
You can't always get what you want "now now now". Your logic makes no sense -- if you want to know what's in the books, that means you support the books' existence. Yet you apparently want spoilers to go up the day it's out, so in the countries where it is bought, people could just read the spoilers and not buy the book, risking its sales going down and the books ending, and thus no more spoilers for you to read!


QUOTE
Truth = Truth. And nothing else.


QUOTE
I had spammed ten thousand times.


QUOTE
A good comedy is a development, like a story, not a punchline. You start with a situation, and it goes in unexpected, funny ways, which leads into other twists, to a conclusion that often can be more serious than funny, avoiding random cliches and developing enough logic that it doesn't feel like you slapped random nonsense down. Comedies Forum has this bad rap of having a lot of Unfunny Stuff -- I think it's the temptation to write short punchlines drawing on typical one-liner cliches that causes this. The 300 word rule is a good basic start to avoiding that problem.


QUOTE
Dude. My voting precint is a "23". ph34r.gif


QUOTE
And what people are saying about randomosity is true -- I hope that it's not surprising that as a logician, I understand how to be funny (though I won't try in this post ). Logic isn't for Spock who refuses to smile -- you actually need logic in your comedy to make it funny. In my experience, a balance of logic and random nonsense helps -- even logic OF the random nonsense.


QUOTE
I highly recommendate it.


QUOTE
Another mistake a lot of people make is thinking a comedy must be 100% funny -- reality is that that tends to just overwhelm the reader and come off more as spam. If you look at my Survurlode interviews, for example, there is always at least one serious theme that the whole work revolves around. The serious aspects support the humorous, and vice versa.


QUOTE
*strongly approves of the use of the term "bionical"*


QUOTE
Well, my observation has always been the opposite -- more established official facts inspires MORE fan imagination -- at least with imaginative official facts. It was really only once the "gappists" starting complaining, in my observation as a 2003+ member here, about "tons of official facts" that I saw the fanfiction community here really explode with creativity.

Think about it -- imagination feuls imagination. Less imagination doesn't -- it starves imagination.

Search My Blog

_bonesquotes #whatever.3

QUOTE
How much wood would a woodwood wood if a woodwood would would wood?


QUOTE
But my point related to that isn't that I literally think it should be FULLY sun-sized. I'm just saying, there's a whole range, from a little larger than Earth, to a LOT larger, to a TONTONZILLION larger, and it's all possible if the story team just feels like it.


QUOTE
*imagines massive asteriod pulling out a pirate's telescope lol*


QUOTE
GD is NOT for storyline-only discussion. That discussion belongs in S&T.


QUOTE
S&T policies are designed for good reasons, tried, tested, and they work.


QUOTE
Sure I'm sure -- it's Bionicle. Anything's possible.


QUOTE
I never understand these claims -- how do you know what "proportionate" is for that character? He's a fictional character, made out of plastic LEGO parts.

So why get annoyed at it? When you look at a giraffe, do you get annoyed? It makes no sense to me to do so.

Besides, you're setting yourself up for it. Nobody ever told you these characters were supposed to be exactly human.

If you look at an ape, would you say it's done wrong, just because it resembles a human?


QUOTE
I plan not to, but I guess if the site shut down I'd kinda have to, wouldn't I?


QUOTE
...they usually give their jokes when they have the upper hand at the moment, though, or when they've just run into a frustrating difficulty that's not immediately dangerous, which are realistic IMO. When they're in immediate danger, I am not aware that they pause to crack jokes.


QUOTE
I strongly disagree -- everybody capitalizes their name. It's cliche.

(I do not capitalize because 1) I hate being cliche, and 2) it is symbolic of humility.)


QUOTE
I knew you'd say that.


QUOTE
Seriously though, obviously the focus groups like silver, guys -- there's no mystery, those of you portraying it as odd that LEGO keeps using the color. This is how personal taste works -- it differs, and you're gonna find yourself in the minority sometimes. Best get used to it -- that's life.


QUOTE
*lets self dp*


QUOTE
I'm not a soldier, but I know that keeping your sense of humor alive even in dangerous or serious situations can be a huge boon to keeping your sanity.

He who forgets how to laugh forgets how to live.


QUOTE
I heart silver. My favorite metallic. If I had my way, gold would be considered lesser than silver.


QUOTE
The red eye thing is the closest thing you have to evidence, but I could argue that Berix is the traitor for spending time away from the villages, or Ackar is the traitor because his name sounds like Admiral Ackbar and there was a traitor in Star Wars called Darth Vader.


QUOTE
Ultimately it comes down to this for me -- YOU choose to dissapointed or miserable.

If you expected the universe to be perfect, that was your choice, and really not very sensible of you.


QUOTE
If I as a writer were to try to appeal to the attitude you express in your post, I would feel like I am constantly walking on eggshells. Everytime I had a cool idea how to use a character, or more importantly logic told me the character naturally would be involved in something, I would have to worry about whether I shouldn't do it as it might offend someone.

That's a miserable way to write, and I wouldn't wish that on the story team, myself, or anyone.


QUOTE
QUOTE
But one thing. Everyone expects something when they do something.


Very true. For example, when I posted the above post, I expected somebody to reward me with this point, giving me an excuse to discuss it in a separate post so as to give it better focus.


QUOTE
Therefore, the more "things to expect" from a "donation or whatever the heck you want to call it", the more likely we get mooooolaaaaaaaa. Therefore good.

QUOTE
I don't see what the anology has to do with this. "Chevys" (or "Chevies") makes sense. Like "Keets" or Morby or my personal favorite for Makuta -- Terry Mack. "Biological Chronicles" referring to beings makes no sense. And as I typed this, a Chevy ad came on TV. They called it "Chevy." Seriously, exact same time.


QUOTE
QUOTE
Oh my, you're completely irrelevant metaphor makes you look sooo intelligent.


This is obviously getting out of hand, so I guess I have to close it. Also, you failed to answer my question. When a moderator asks you a question, answer it. Capisce? wink.gif

Please do not attack people like that. That is flaming, or at best trolling, both of which are not allowed.


QUOTE
What does a premier member buy?

1) YOUR right to be on here for free.

2) Their right to be on here.

3) PM perks, like poll-making, blogs, etc.

4) Proto.

No matter how you slice it, sending in that money is NOT just buying proto. Even if proto is all they want, they're still buying YOUR right to be on here for free. Yall should be grateful.

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