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Do Spoilers Spoil?


Ta-metru_defender

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Essays, Not Rants! 235: Do Spoilers Spoil?

 

Darth Vader has Luke Skywalker on the ropes, cornered, defenseless, and missing a hand. But rather than killing the Rebel, Vader offers for Luke to join him. Luke refuses. Undeterred, Vader throws doubt on those Luke trusts and utters one of the most famous lines in cinema:

 

“No, I am your father.”

 

It’s shattering, throwing everything Luke knows into disarray. But Luke doesn’t join Vader, choosing instead to cast himself into the abyss below.

 

Also, that scene’s a big honking spoiler. It upends everything we, as viewers, have been told thus far, paints Obi Wan as a liar, and Yoda one by omission. It also profoundly effects Luke and colors his motivations throughout all of the next movie. Big twist, big development, so, y’know, spoiler.

 

But do we call Han getting frozen in carbonite a spoiler too? I mean, he’s basically becoming mostly dead and that plot point necessitates the first act of Jedi and is partially responsible for the downbeat Emprie ends on. So why isn’t that the big spoiler? It’s not as catchy as the Vader quote, no, but isn’t it at least as big?

 

Which makes me wonder, why do we call spoilers spoilers? Now, I’m not talking about people who go around trying to find everything out about a movie before it happens. I mean more the idea that finding something out ruins a story for good.

 

‘cuz I knew a lot of of the big spoilers for Game of Thrones going in. I knew Ned died. I found out about Robb’s death by accident. A friend of mine unintentionally spoiled another couple deaths. But it didn’t make any of the moments any less dramatic. Or even less shocking, since the impact still hits in a big way. Because you’re not really watching Game of Thrones to see who dies, but rather for the how of it. “Ned dies” is uninteresting, but “Ned dies as a show of force by new king Joffrey to prove himself” has kick. The why and how of it is more interesting that the what. If you know Robb’s gonna die, you keep wondering what it is that’s gonna do him in at the end. And when it really comes, that’s the whammy.

 

Nothing really beats the impact of, say, Han’s death in The Force Awakens when you first see it not knowing it’s coming. But watching it again let’s you appreciate the finesse of it all the more. When you’re less concerned about having to pay attention to every what of the story, you look more for the bits of set up and pay off. But don’t just take my word for it, it’s an actual fact. It doesn’t ruin the story, so to speak. Instead it changes the approach of the narrative.

 

But for turns like that, even if we know that Vader is Luke's father and Ned dies, the characters don't. It's a beautiful dose of dramatic irony that heightens the tension in its own way because you wanna see how they'll react to it. How is Obi Wan gonna react to Qui Gon's death? One of the reasons "I am your father" is such a magnificent twist is because of the effect it has on Luke as a character. Watching his response – throwing himself into the pits of Cloud City – is a thrill born out of character. The story still has a hold even if you know what's coming.

 

See, that's the thing: a good story doesn't revolve around That Twist. Empire still works knowing that Vader is Luke's father. You lack the shock, but it's no less compelling; you still want to see how we get to that point. A good story shouldn't rely on one plot point being the big twist. The Prestige still works when you know what's coming because the process of reaching that reveal is so well done. Watching characters make the choices that takes them to the ending you know has an allure itself.

 

All this said, I don't like being spoiled. I swore off the internet after the Lost finale aired so it wouldn't be spoiled before I could watch it. But watching the series again, it is no less powerful because the catharsis works just as well. Fiction – good fiction – isn't consumed to find things out; it's to feel. If a spoiler really ruins the story completely, than it probably wasn't that good a story in the first place.

 

If this feels inconclusive, it’s because I’m still thinking about it all. Did knowing that Charlie died in Lost affect how I watched the show? Did knowing Kreia was the villain affect the choices I made while playing Knights of The Old Republic II? There’re more rants here for other days.

 

That said. Don't tell me how Rogue One ends.

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:kaukau: Darth Vader being Luke's father is hardly a spoiler considering that that information is given two episodes beforehand.  That's right, I watch the episodes in chronological order.

 

On the subject of whether or not a story is good if a spoiler can ruin it, I believe that it depends on what the story is trying to achieve.  I don't think of whodunnits as books/movies meant to be experienced more than once (unless they're comedies like Clue, in which case you can watch them again for laughs).  The Usual Suspects has an amazing ending, and spoiling it would have genuinely ruined the movie, and I don't think that that makes it a bad story.  It was an awesome story, in order to get the full experience your first time watching it needs to be in ignorance of the ending.  You won't be surprised with successive viewings, but you'll be able to remember what it was like to be that surprised.

 

24601

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Darth Vader being Luke's father is hardly a spoiler considering that that information is given two episodes beforehand.

Why are you like this.

 

Anyway, it depends entirely on the person. For some people, spoilers can ruin any story. For others, they only ruin mysteries. Others can read through the same mystery novel five or six times, because they enjoy picking out all of the little moments that point at the big one.

 

For me... eh. I don't seek them out, but I hardly consider a story preemptively ruined if I find out the end. If I was going to enjoy it before I knew, I'll still probably enjoy it after. To be fair though, I'm one of those nerds that re-reads mysteries.

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For me, unless I find out about them immediately before seeing/reading the thing, they don't ruin much for me. It's usually just me accidentally finding one, and then I get to that part and it's like, "Oh yeah.... I knew that happened."

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My first intention was to argue with you, but thinking over more examples I think I’m seeing your point better.  While being surprised the first time around does give more of a kick to the first impression, some of the best plot points are definitely moving no matter how many times you see them.  I still tense whenever I get to the end of Steins;Gate episode 12.  Galuf’s battle with Exdeath in Final Fantasy V is no doubt one of the emotional highlights of the franchise.  Finn’s resolution with his father/Emmet’s resolution with President Business at the end of The Lego Movie still makes me tear up.

 

But still, I can’t help but wonder what it would be like to experience some things without knowing that they were coming.  Goku becoming a Super Saiyan.  The Doctor regenerating.  Man, my examples are all horrible aren’t they.

 

I guess it’s more like spoilers aren’t an end of the world thing like they’re sometimes treated as, but a small annoyance can still be an annoyance?

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I had that scene in the force awakens ruined for me. I was a bit irked, but when watching the movie, I saw it coming a mile away anyway and probably would have regardless so....

 

No, the one that got ruined for me that still makes me sour is one of Transistors final scenes.

 

I'm going to explain this and try not to ruin anything so bear with me. but if you've played the game I'm sure you know the part I'm talking about.

Supergiant games have these nice little art pieces that accompany bits of story, in most cases, seeing one wouldn't really tell you anything as they're in much need of context to fully understand. But I was browsing the steam community (I know, I learned, I avoided Bastion's like the plague.) and I saw one that needed no explanation at all. when I got to that part of the game I saw it coming a mile away, but the way it was done I'm not sure I would have otherwise. I felt robbed of that moment and I can never truly appreciate it for what it was meant to be.

 

That being said, Transistor is still an absolute work of art and a joy to play, not to mention unreasonably gorgeous. But I still feel robbed having not experienced it the way it was meant to. 

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Darth Vader being Luke's father is hardly a spoiler considering that that information is given two episodes beforehand.

Why are you like this.

 

:kaukau: Why am I like what?

 

Anyway, I've had some thoughts since my last post regarding my personal relationship with movies.  I rarely re-watch films unless I really like the way the director made the movie, or the acting, or the music, or the cinematography.  Basically, if the movie is good overall, I'll re-rewatch it, and it usually isn't the story alone that I desire to re-experience.  That's just something that I noticed.  Anyway, those are my two cents.

 

24601

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Really digging the feedback.

 

Here's another question: In, say Lord of the Rings, we know the heroes will win and the ring destroyed, even if you haven't seen it before. In Rogue One I know that they'll get the Death Star plans. In Doctor Strange I know Stephen will beat the bad guy. So are those stories spoiled already?

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:kaukau: Perhaps Rogue One is "spoiled" already, since we already know with absolute certainty of one of its major plot points, but we don't "know" how Lord of the Rings and Doctor Strange are going to end.  We just have reasonable assumptions, and the films play to those reasonable assumptions.  They aren't spoiled, but they're predictable.  And that's fine.  I've had the opinion for quite some time that there's nothing wrong with a film being predictable.  I see people criticize films for being predictable all of the time, as one of the most frequent criticisms that I ever see, and I think that their perspectives on film are a bit one-dimensional.  Titanic is one of the greatest films of all time, and we know for a fact how it's going to go down (pun intended).  It's predictable from beginning to end, and yet it remained the #1 film at the box office for 15 weeks straight.

 

By all means, plot twists can be great.  I loved some of the classic plot twists in film when I first saw them.  Not every film needs one, though.  In fact, it's wrong to expect every film to have a plot twist or a major surprise.  It forced all films to be alike, and you won't be able to have any diversity.

 

Of course, I understand that suspense is generally good, and you lose a bit of that when you lose the ending.  That doesn't mean that you can't have any suspense, though.  Rogue One will still have us asking many questions about what happens to the individual characters, who lives and who dies, and how much Darth Vader will be appearing in the film.  Basically, we're wondering what the journey will look like, and it can be a very interesting journey.  If is was just "Rebels get plans for the Death Star," with no spectacular details, then we'd be disappointed.  But if it turns out that the main character was blind the whole time, and her sidekick was a talking raccoon (wrong movie), then that's an interesting story.  Throw in some Darth Vader doing Darth Vaderly stuff, and the story becomes infinitely cooler regardless of how much suspense it has.

 

I'd compare it to a landscape painting.  There's nothing suspenseful about most paintings, but the painter can include really cool details that make the painting stand out.  Similarly, a movie can have awesome details that make it worthy of watching, and it can be entertaining even if its broader story doesn't have much suspense.  If nothing else, its storytellers can surprise you with their imagination, and get you to embrace the present moment.

 

You know, I could have written all of this on my own blog, but I feel that I empowered you by putting up all of my main points in here instead.  Maybe I'll write a full essay on it later, but I dunno.  I don't like to repeat myself.

 

24601

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Hm, that question is always a difficult one.  As far as expecting the heroes to win, I’d say the points you already covered make up a big part of it: we want to see how, and we want to see how characters change because of and react to the events we expect.  On a perhaps lesser level, a “good ending” can still have some variants—we know the hero will beat the bad guy, but will they kill them, send them running, befriend them, or what?  There could always be a little elbow room.

 

As for prequels, they seem especially curious when viewed from this angle.  The ending of this story is probably the one thing we do know going in, so why are we going in again?  But in addition to everything else, prequels can also alter the context of the original, letting you take their events in a different way than you originally did.  For all the hate the Star Wars prequels get (some deserved), I still say that Darth Vader’s side change at the end of VI is fairly out of nowhere unless you’ve seen what drove Anakin to the Dark Side.  And when a prequel is made knowing that a sequel is in store, it can also introduce new plot points to be picked up later…though admittedly, my first thought for that is Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep, and I know Kingdom Hearts has no place in a discussion about good writing. :P

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Really digging the feedback.

 

Here's another question: In, say Lord of the Rings, we know the heroes will win and the ring destroyed, even if you haven't seen it before. In Rogue One I know that they'll get the Death Star plans. In Doctor Strange I know Stephen will beat the bad guy. So are those stories spoiled already?

 

I think it has a lot to do with context. I think the way those stories are told it's not terribly important how they concluded but how they end up there. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that stories can be enjoyed in many ways for a variety of reasons.

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mmh, Shockwave pretty much got it. A story can still make itself good if it takes an interesting route to its destination, introducing memorable characters, making the plot on the way to the ending worth paying attention to, and so on.

 

I'm sure we can all think of movies where you sit down with a basic template of what to expect based just on the genre, and the movie doesn't expand on that template. You've seen the characters a thousand times before, the plot brings nothing new, even the set pieces seem strangely familiar. In that case, yeah, it's spoiled unless you've never seen a film of that genre before.

 

(On a side note, unless Chiwetel Ejiofor puts Bingledinck Castingbotch in the dirt and teams up with Surprise Guest Star Alexander Siddig [as Doctor Strange] to save the movie, Doctor Strange is already ruined for me.)

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So really, it's less important knowing WHAT happens than knowing HOW it happens? "Kylo Ren kills Han" is a spoiler, but "Han dies trying to redeem his son" is the one that actually robs you of the fun.

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Less important, definitely.  Not important at all…debatable, and probably varies by case.

 

Seeing as Star Wars is such a huge cultural icon and Han Solo is one of its most popular characters, knowing that “Han dies” even without knowing the circumstances still ruins a huge surprise even if we don’t know how.  Plus, how much we know going in can color our whole experience—if you know Han dies, you might spend the whole movie paying more attention to him than anything else, spending each scene going “Is there where he dies?  Is that who kills him?”, and you might miss other things because you’re focused on making the most of the last time you’ll see Han in action. (Flashback sidestory notwithstanding.)

 

Of course, going back to prequels, we do know what’s going to happen, and that does color the way we view it…though I guess prequels are usually designed to take advantage of that?  Maybe?

 

Anyway, shock value definitely shouldn’t be the only thing a story has going for it, but I don’t know if I’d say we should totally discount it.  Surprises can be fun!  A good plot point is sure to leave an impact on you, but if you couple it with surprise it’ll leave an even bigger impact.  So maybe, if you use it sparingly and effectively, it can be a helpful tool, but relying too heavily on it is a mistake?

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Anyway, shock value definitely shouldn’t be the only thing a story has going for it, but I don’t know if I’d say we should totally discount it.  Surprises can be fun!  A good plot point is sure to leave an impact on you, but if you couple it with surprise it’ll leave an even bigger impact.  So maybe, if you use it sparingly and effectively, it can be a helpful tool, but relying too heavily on it is a mistake?

Agreed. It's a narrative tool that adds to the story, but it should not be the entirety of the story's hook.

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