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In Conclusion


Takua the Wanderer

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This topic strongly implies that what a lot of people actually care about in the Nuva is not how similar they are to their past appearances, it's how their personality is represented.

 

Now why are the Newva so dissimilar to their 2002 incarnations? It's because the 2002 sets did a poor job of representing the Nuva. Lewa and Pohatu are growling, Gali and Onua have savage slash and hack weapons, and Lewa has a pair of massive two-handed weapons. The list goes on. Good riddance, I say.

 

The majority of BZP members absolutely loathe change. Regardless of whether it's a good set or not, if a new incarnation of an old "character" looks different, it is heresy.

Here's the good part, if LEGO did make the Phantoka and Mistika look similar to their predecessors, that would be evil too because then LEGO would be 'uncreative' or 'lazy' or something to that effect.

Another good part is that once good pictures -such as a BZP review- emerge, most members start to like them.

But wait, there's more. Nobody seems to realize that you can always take the set apart, and rebuild it what you think it should look like.

(Thanks to Slizer Prime)

 

Now if Lego made them too similar, then that would happen. But what I think Lego did here was only have a small bit of similarity, and let the parts that aren't similar reflect the personality of the Toa. That way, they are still the Nuva and they aren't too repetitive. Personally, I feel that was a brilliant move.

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Again, I can't stress enough how awesome you are for composing those wonderfully accurate comparisons. You have taken the assaults of the majority of BZP, and creatively and accurately proven them wrong. I'm all for opinion, but you have handled baseless complaining and whining with elegance and style. Kudos.
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Logical though your reasoning is, I still disagree entirely – I don't think their new appearances match their personalities well at all, especially not the Mistika. Phantoka, maybe, but Mistika, definitely not. Tahu has always been fierce and hot-headed, which I thought was embodied especially in the eyeholes of the Hau and Hau Nuva, and the firey red/orange certainly helped. His new mask just looks silly to me, bordering on stealthy (given that he's apparently become a ninja), none of which fit Tahu for me. The rest of the set could work quite well, even with dark red, but since I think so much of a character's appearance depends on the mask, the Hau Mistika just doesn't cut it.

 

Gali... her Nuva form might not have been the best for her character, I'll give you that, but again it just worked for me because it actually looked like her old set. Her new form looks like none of her old forms, and a sniper is one of the last things I could ever see Gali being, as the peacemaker of the group...

 

And Onua, well, as I've said numerous times now: he's the strongest of the Nuva, so this wimpy-looking, thin, stretched-out form conveys exactly the opposite of that.

 

So in my conclusion, I actually loved everything about the Nuva, characters included, and didn't have the slightest objection to them, so sets with almost no resemblance at all to those simply cannot be the Nuva in my eyes. That's all there is to it.

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I read those, and I disagreed with them, too. :P On Tahu, as I said, I see him as much more hot-headed and reckless than noble and knightly and stealthy and ninja-like; on Gali, her blaster just looks far more destructive and violent to me than the elegant axes she carried...

 

Edit: I just realized I hadn't directly commented on the quote. To the bolded statement, that's why I think there should be balance. To me, the best 2008-ified Nuva there could possibly be would use their original color schemes, explicitly similar masks, and would have redesigned Nuva armor as well – that's balance right there, between an old overall look and a completely new build for the character. But to go a bit further, I would take the basic color schemes and distributions of the Phantoka and Mistika, but give them more Nuva-like masks and tools, and Tahu and Gali normal red and blue instead of their darker counterparts. With, of course, redesigned Nuva armor as well. (I've done Gali in my blog; will do the rest later.)

 

So, in essence I think Lego went way too far on the "new" side, throwing away most of the Nuva's colors, tools, and a lot of their masks in favor of nearly entirely new builds (compared to the original Nuva frame) and color schemes. With colors, masks, tools, and armor gone, I just think there's way too little of the Nuva left in the Phantoka and Mistika.

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Ah. Logical. :P

 

Who says that a noble knight can't be hot headed? :P

Admittedly, they generally aren't seen as such, but if you think about, charging at a dragon that scourged a countryside is just about heroic to the point of recklessness. :P

As for the part about knightly, it was reading Divided We Fall that made me think of that. And that was back in 2003, too. But that's opinion. :P

And I don't see him as a ninja either, hence this entry. :P

 

To me, the best 2008-ified Nuva there could possibly be would use their original color schemes, explicitly similar masks, and would have redesigned Nuva armor as well

I'm not going to state my opinion on this, but I think that the color change would alienate the age group. I also have a feeling that the age group might not like redesigned Nuva masks, but that's speculation. :P

 

Oh, and about Onua, I feel that he's lean to contrast with Pohatu. You don't have to be Arnold to be strong. You can still be muscular if you're lean, look at Smeagol (even though that's a different kind of strong). :P

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Good point about the Nuva 2003 (or 2002, however you wanna slice it) not representing them very well. I've been trying to say basically that for a few days without figuring out how to word it. :P However, I do think the 2001 forms represented them pretty well, and so I would have wanted more similarity to those forms.

 

 

But even though I can see the logic behind the decision, the fact remains that who will like it is purely taste-related, not logical, probably including a bit whether each person thinks they match personalities or not. And actually I do have good reason to think most fans will like the Mistika (and we know the Phantoka are selling like crazy already, Greg said). So probably no actual problem. :)

 

 

About the hot-headed thing though -- actually, one interesting point here is that the Nuva's personalities have matured and thus changed a bit. Tahu isn't controlled by his temper anymore; he's learned that lesson. I'm sure it will be a story element still, but I suppose this is another good argument for the reasoning behind the change. :shrugs:

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Yeah, the Mata will always be near the top of the list of favorites for me. :P

Although I think it's possible that we think those forms fit because we automatically fit the personalities to the Mata forms, not the other way around. :shrugs:

But it's iconic by now, so who cares. :P

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Ah can't be bothered typing. I do agree about how their Nuva forms didn't exactly match with their personalities, if you think about it. We have just come to associate the Nuva with their Nuva forms, we did so for 6 years. And so such a radical change did confuse people, but in my opinion, A bayonet on Kopaka makes more sense then a sword and shield. Again, its the Mistika's masks that lame it up for me, the Phantokas masks had some resembelence to their previous incarnations, and with the characters own personalities. Tahu Mistikas doesn't work for me, from what I've seen. I did like the Nuva and Mata masks, especially Tahu Nuva's mask, and I was hoping for some cool improvment of it, because that is what happenned with Kopaka(imo). That's about all I can think of now :P.

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Oh, and personally, I find a sniper rifle a lot less violent than an axe, but that's just opinion. :P

What?

 

How can an AXE be less violent than a RIFLE? :wacko:

 

As bonesiii would say... "opinions can be wrong." :P

 

Who says that a noble knight can't be hot headed? :P

Admittedly, they generally aren't seen as such, but if you think about, charging at a dragon that scourged a countryside is just about heroic to the point of recklessness. :P

Tahu was very reckless. Well, I can say that football players are reckless too (for example). Why don't we give Tau huge shoulder pads, a helmet (which he has), a bottle of Gatorade, and a football?

 

That was a terrible example, but what I'm getting at is: "Just because he has remote characteristics of someone/something that is recklessdoesn't mean Lego should give the set characteristics of the knight/football player/whatever."

 

To me, the best 2008-ified Nuva there could possibly be would use their original color schemes, explicitly similar masks, and would have redesigned Nuva armor as well

I'm not going to state my opinion on this, but I think that the color change would alienate the age group.

Why would a color change "alienate the age group?"

I also have a feeling that the age group might not like redesigned Nuva masks, but that's speculation. :P

Why wouldn't they?

Oh, and about Onua, I feel that he's lean to contrast with Pohatu. You don't have to be Arnold to be strong. You can still be muscular if you're lean, look at Smeagol (even though that's a different kind of strong). :P

Again, yes, you can be skinny and strong at the same time, but it's not the norm and it doesn't represent Onua well!

 

Basically, you say, "You can be muscular and lean," but in reality this doesn't happen very often. Just because being thin and strong is physically possible doesn't mean it's a good characteristic to incorporate into a set that should look strong and bulky.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

No offense, but you use too many :P emoticons. You sometimes put them where they don't make any sense.

 

~Sidorak The Hunter

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Guest Cap'n Bionicle

Posted

You said something golden that I've been trying to tell other people for ages:

 

"If you don't like it, build your own."

 

That's the glory and beauty of Lego. If you don't like it, use your own creative juices and prove you can do better. I do this everytime whenever I have a fault for a set. For example, I did not like that Lewa had so much grey. So what did I do? I switched the majority of it with lime green, and he came out much better and transitioned.

 

I plan on buying all the canister sets, as usual, and I think every one of them will need some revamping (the only two sets this year that went without change were Ignika and Vamprah).

 

The only issue with this is that, sadly, no matter what, Tahu and Gali's new amsks suck. Bad suck. Like unfixable suck. And because tehy use their darker colors, their old masks cannot be used without clashing with color scheme. So that may prove difficult. But i agree with ToM on many accounts.

 

But seriously people, fix them yourself. If you don't like them, either buy them revamp on your own or don't buy them at all.

 

~Cap'n

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What?

 

How can an AXE be less violent than a RIFLE?

 

As bonesiii would say... "opinions can be wrong."

Yes they can but I think that one can be seen either way -- depends on how you define violent. A sniper rifle can kill you with very little gore, whereas an axe is going to be a lot more messy -- of course, that's real life, not Bionicle where there is no gore.

 

So from a distance, maybe an axe is less violent. But if you assume that both weapons kill a victim, the axe can be seen as a lot more violent.

 

I'm assuming that's what he meant. :) It's a point that's been discussed before.

 

 

Why would a color change "alienate the age group?"

Well, what if the older colors (which I think was what that quote brought up) are less popular to target audience?

 

There could be reasons they dropped them, yanno. Although I've never seen evidence either way other than that they did drop them so I have no opinion on it. Ahm just sayin.

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What?

 

How can an AXE be less violent than a RIFLE?

 

As bonesiii would say... "opinions can be wrong."

What Bones said, but how do you measure violence in the first place? :P

 

That was a terrible example, but what I'm getting at is: "Just because he has remote characteristics of someone/something that is recklessdoesn't mean Lego should give the set characteristics of the knight/football player/whatever."

I'm not saying that they should, I'm saying that they did and it actually fits. :P

 

Why wouldn't they?

Well, they seem to like the current masks, which are vastly different from the old ones. But like I said, it's speculation, it has no basis in fact. :P

 

Again, yes, you can be skinny and strong at the same time, but it's not the norm and it doesn't represent Onua well!

How do you know? There's a lot of people I know who are like that, they're just not professional weightlifters. If you ask me, it's actually more common.

This is just personal opinion, but I think it's better that way, it emphasizes that he has a Pakari and actually has a use for it. :P

 

Basically, you say, "You can be muscular and lean," but in reality this doesn't happen very often. Just because being thin and strong is physically possible doesn't mean it's a good characteristic to incorporate into a set that should look strong and bulky.

And there's the "should." Why "should" Onua look strong and bulky? He wasn't that much more bulky than any of the other Mata. And like I said, there's many ways to represent strength. :P

 

No offense, but you use too many :P emoticons. You sometimes put them where they don't make any sense.

If you want to know why I overuse them, it's because I try to avoid sounding condecsending, and I feel that using that says that I'm not being harsh, or something like that. :P

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Logical though your reasoning is, I still disagree entirely – I don't think their new appearances match their personalities well at all, especially not the Mistika. Phantoka, maybe, but Mistika, definitely not. Tahu has always been fierce and hot-headed, which I thought was embodied especially in the eyeholes of the Hau and Hau Nuva, and the firey red/orange certainly helped. His new mask just looks silly to me, bordering on stealthy (given that he's apparently become a ninja), none of which fit Tahu for me. The rest of the set could work quite well, even with dark red, but since I think so much of a character's appearance depends on the mask, the Hau Mistika just doesn't cut it.

 

Gali... her Nuva form might not have been the best for her character, I'll give you that, but again it just worked for me because it actually looked like her old set. Her new form looks like none of her old forms, and a sniper is one of the last things I could ever see Gali being, as the peacemaker of the group...

 

And Onua, well, as I've said numerous times now: he's the strongest of the Nuva, so this wimpy-looking, thin, stretched-out form conveys exactly the opposite of that.

 

So in my conclusion, I actually loved everything about the Nuva, characters included, and didn't have the slightest objection to them, so sets with almost no resemblance at all to those simply cannot be the Nuva in my eyes. That's all there is to it.

 

She is making peace. By silencing an enemy.

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I agree with you. If people don't like these sets, just ignore them. :P The ones that like them can buy them and admire them. Now go use your magical reviewing powers and review the prices. :P

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About the axe/rifle thing, if you're talking about killing someone... in the end, the result is the same -- the victim dies. The axe just makes it gorier. But I know what you mean.

 

Yeah, the sets are selling, but the Nuva Mistika masks look totally ridiculous. The problem is that the kids who were buying the sets in 2001 and 2002 have almost all moved on, and the current fanbase were 2 or 3 years old when BIONICLE was launched. So Lego doesn't have to worry about the current fanbase comparing these masks to the old masks. What I'm trying to say is that they could please an even larger audience if they changed the colors and redesigned masks, but kept certain features of older masks.

 

In my experience, the heavier guys are stronger. However, that doesn't really matter. Onua has a mask of strength, and I think that should be represented in his build. The original Onua was hunched over and had bigger arms than the other toa (except, ironically, Gali).

 

About the ":P" emoticons... that's a good reason to use them, and I appreciate it. ^_^ I thought you were just throwing them in at the end of each sentence just for the heck of it. (There are people who do that.)

 

~Sidorak The Hunter

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Yeah, the sets are selling, but the Nuva Mistika masks look totally ridiculous. The problem is that the kids who were buying the sets in 2001 and 2002 have almost all moved on, and the current fanbase were 2 or 3 years old when BIONICLE was launched. So Lego doesn't have to worry about the current fanbase comparing these masks to the old masks. What I'm trying to say is that they could please an even larger audience if they changed the colors and redesigned masks, but kept certain features of older masks.

I know what you mean by that, I've thought of that myself. In fact, I actually agree with you. It would definitely have been better that way.

Of course, I think it's possible for the age group to dislike some of the features that they kept, I personally hated most of the Nuva masks.

Personally, I would like it if Lego kept the features on the masks that the age group likes and dropped the bad parts.

 

In my experience, the heavier guys are stronger. However, that doesn't really matter. Onua has a mask of strength, and I think that should be represented in his build. The original Onua was hunched over and had bigger arms than the other toa (except, ironically, Gali).

I believe it is represented in his build. :P

I think this Onua might also be hunched over, but I'm not sure. And as for the arms, I disagree about that part. His arms weren't actually bigger than any of the other Toa's arms, he just had a thicker left arm than the rest. :P

 

 

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I always thought that the ":P" emoticon was like sticking your tongue out at whoever you were just talking to. It also makes me take what you're saying less seriously. I mean, I never can tell when you're joking or being serious.

And now: on topic.

I feel that the Nuva can never look like what everyone wants them to, as everyone has a different opinion as to what they should look like. I always imagine the Mahri as their Inika forms. As an aside, why does lego always do that thing where the first permutation of a character looks good, but the next year they look all jumbled or mutated (the exception of course being the Mata-Nuva/2001-2002 ark)?

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I thought it was the Nuva that looked jumpled up and mutated. :P

 

Also, have you considered that sometimes they are jumbled up and mutated? :P

 

Actually, they are. By EP maybe, but still mutated.

 

Neya Darkaea Out. :voyanui: And I am more or less in different to the whole Nuva '02 represented-like before-or not issue. My first set was actually a Keelerak. :voyanui:

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Logical though your reasoning is, I still disagree entirely – I don't think their new appearances match their personalities well at all, especially not the Mistika. Phantoka, maybe, but Mistika, definitely not. Tahu has always been fierce and hot-headed, which I thought was embodied especially in the eyeholes of the Hau and Hau Nuva, and the firey red/orange certainly helped. His new mask just looks silly to me, bordering on stealthy (given that he's apparently become a ninja), none of which fit Tahu for me. The rest of the set could work quite well, even with dark red, but since I think so much of a character's appearance depends on the mask, the Hau Mistika just doesn't cut it.

 

Gali... her Nuva form might not have been the best for her character, I'll give you that, but again it just worked for me because it actually looked like her old set. Her new form looks like none of her old forms, and a sniper is one of the last things I could ever see Gali being, as the peacemaker of the group...

 

And Onua, well, as I've said numerous times now: he's the strongest of the Nuva, so this wimpy-looking, thin, stretched-out form conveys exactly the opposite of that.

 

So in my conclusion, I actually loved everything about the Nuva, characters included, and didn't have the slightest objection to them, so sets with almost no resemblance at all to those simply cannot be the Nuva in my eyes. That's all there is to it.

Takua the Wanderer can't handle the truth

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I basically agree with what's been said about how the Newva represent themselves mentally.

 

However, I'm still not sold on the Mistika masks. They really could've looked more like their past selves.

 

I can think of 2 great examples of this:

 

1. Lhikan's Hau: It has it's differences from the normal Hau, but it's also extremely similar. It's one of the reasons why I've always seen Lhikan's set as a newer version of Tahu.

 

2. The 08 Avohkii: It also has it's differences from the original mask. It basically even uses the opposite color. However, the shape is similar enough that I take one look at it and I think *boom* that's the Avohkii.

 

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