Bohrok Origins & Av-Matoran Death

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

So we know that certain Av-Matoran can be pre-destined to turn into Bohrok at some point in their lives. My question is: were all the Bohrok formerly Av-Matoran, or were some of them always Bohrok created by Mata Nui or the GBs? (In the same way that the Toa Mata were always Toa, without transforming from a Matoran)

 

It seems like there would have to be a lot of Av-Matoran to make up the Bohrok Swarms. Especially since only a select number can actually make the transformation. Perhaps that is why there are so few of them now? Also, since Bohrok are completely Mechanical, I presume that none of the original Av-Matoran's essence/personality is retained after the transformation, as the Bohrok cannot think for themselves. Does that make Av-Matoran the only beings in the Matoran Universe that can actually die? The Red Star can't revive them, because their bodies have simply changed form, but the biomechanical parts have been lost.

[fishers64]

It seems like there would have to be a lot of Av-Matoran to make up the Bohrok Swarms. Especially since only a select number can actually make the transformation. Perhaps that is why there are so few of them now?

It seems to me that the Av-Matoran were Matoran prototypes, thus the lower amount of them. However, it's possible that the GBs made a bunch of Av-Matoran and turned them into Bohrok, or just made straight Bohrok. We don't know.

Does that make Av-Matoran the only beings in the Matoran Universe that can actually die? The Red Star can't revive them, because their bodies have simply changed form, but the biomechanical parts have been lost.

Any being in the MU can die. Disintegrate them, and they're gone.

Edited July 8, 2013 by fishers64

[Art Vandelay]

I would presume that the Krana are made from the biological portion of the Av-Toran's body, so if a Bohrok were to be teleported to the Red Star for some reason with the Krana, its possible that the Kestora could reverse the process and revive the Matoran. However this is unlikely since the Av-Toran were destined to transform in the first place. This would also be a complicated reconstuction process, and likely impossible because of that. I think the only way to reverse the Bohrok transformation is to use the Ignika to devolve the Bohrok back into Av-Matoran.

 

Also, all beings in the Matoran Universe can die, but we haven't seen any reach the limit of their natural lifespan. I'm not sure if the Bohrok transformation could be considered natural. It seems to be more destiny related.

[bonesiii]

Does that make Av-Matoran the only beings in the Matoran Universe that can actually die?

Regardless of the answer to the rest, this is a definite no. All of them can actually die. They all have a lifespan, and accidents can kill. You may be under the misconception that the RS will revive everybody but this is not so; Greg confirmed for example that Matoro wasn't revived, because there was nothing left to work with.

 

Also, Greg confirmed that the RS teleports up the body. So if you're asking if the RS can revive these Av-Matoran that also appears to be a no.

 

To the main question, we simply don't know, but I assume there was an initial population of Bohrok made that way from the start. Otherwise a LOT of Av-Matoran would have had to be made and "die" very very young before Mata Nui could take off from the first alien world where he used his camouflage (presumably the first one he came to).

 

I would presume that the Krana are made from the biological portion of the Av-Toran's body

No, the Av-Matoran becomes the Bohrok with its robotic brain. The Krana are placed in (and frequently swapped out, remember), having been made by the Bahrag. See:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Krana#History

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Bohrok#History

Edited July 8, 2013 by bonesiii

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

 

Does that make Av-Matoran the only beings in the Matoran Universe that can actually die?

Regardless of the answer to the rest, this is a definite no. All of them can actually die. They all have a lifespan, and accidents can kill. You may be under the misconception that the RS will revive everybody but this is not so; Greg confirmed for example that Matoro wasn't revived, because there was nothing left to work with.

 

Also, Greg confirmed that the RS teleports up the body. So if you're asking if the RS can revive these Av-Matoran that also appears to be a no.

 

That's what I meant. Since there is no body to work with, they can't be revived. I forgot to think about things like disintegration and other ways of dying for non-Av-Matoran.

 

Although about the lifespans, wouldn't they just be revived in the Red Star? Because isn't that the whole reason for it's reviving function? (So that there wouldn't have to be new Matoran made after a generation dies, however long that might take) I always thought that the only reason MU beings were perceived to have a lifespan was because of the Red Star's malfunctioning.

Edited July 8, 2013 by darthme

[Art Vandelay]

 

Does that make Av-Matoran the only beings in the Matoran Universe that can actually die?

Regardless of the answer to the rest, this is a definite no. All of them can actually die. They all have a lifespan, and accidents can kill. You may be under the misconception that the RS will revive everybody but this is not so; Greg confirmed for example that Matoro wasn't revived, because there was nothing left to work with.

 

Also, Greg confirmed that the RS teleports up the body. So if you're asking if the RS can revive these Av-Matoran that also appears to be a no.

 

To the main question, we simply don't know, but I assume there was an initial population of Bohrok made that way from the start. Otherwise a LOT of Av-Matoran would have had to be made and "die" very very young before Mata Nui could take off from the first alien world where he used his camouflage (presumably the first one he came to).

 

I would presume that the Krana are made from the biological portion of the Av-Toran's body

No, the Av-Matoran becomes the Bohrok with its robotic brain. The Krana are placed in (and frequently swapped out, remember), having been made by the Bahrag. See:

 

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Krana#History

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Bohrok#History

 

 

Oh yes, that's right. They were given the materials by someone (I can't remember if it was the GB's or Mata Nui.) to make the Krana, correct?

 

 

 

 

Does that make Av-Matoran the only beings in the Matoran Universe that can actually die?

Regardless of the answer to the rest, this is a definite no. All of them can actually die. They all have a lifespan, and accidents can kill. You may be under the misconception that the RS will revive everybody but this is not so; Greg confirmed for example that Matoro wasn't revived, because there was nothing left to work with.

 

Also, Greg confirmed that the RS teleports up the body. So if you're asking if the RS can revive these Av-Matoran that also appears to be a no.

 

That's what I meant. Since there is no body to work with, they can't be revived. I forgot to think about things like disintegration and other ways of dying for non-Av-Matoran.

 

Although about the lifespans, wouldn't they just be revived in the Red Star? I always thought that the only reason MU beings were perceived to have a lifespan was because of the Red Star's malfunctioning.

 

 

They would be revived in the Red Star, but they wouldn't be teleported back because of the malfunction. Matoran were created with a set lifespan from the start. It wasn't because of the Red Star malfunctioning that Matoran have lifespans.

[bonesiii]

The Matoran are confirmed to have a lifespan, not just perceived. But none of them ever actually reached it -- the giant robot's purpose was fulfilled before that came into play, so in short that's another thing we just don't know. Probably it would revive them, but it didn't end up needing to for that.

 

In practice it seems kind of like the Red Star itself has a "lifespan" shorter than the Matoran. Since it's in such a bad state of disrepair as depicted.

 

 

Re: materials -- The GBs did originally, yes, and now it would have to be Mata Nui, I presume, but I forget if it's confirmed they need to get them from Mata Nui now (would that mean, for example, that they couldn't make new Krana while he was asleep? No idea).

Edited July 8, 2013 by bonesiii

[darkslizer]

I always thought that the GBs made a fixed set of Bohrok and that the Av-Matoran were a fail safe or a precaution. What if the Bohrok originally carried out what they were supposed to, and one was crushed by a boulder or something? Bam, Av-Matoran. However, it might just be that Av-Matoran have a life span (I was never very educated on life spans and romance in the bionicle universe) and they simply populate the Bohrok army when they "die". I mean, if I were a Great Being, I would want to put a dead Matoran to some use besides filling up the ground. (I'm also not well educated on what they do with their dead. Burial, cremation, a mummification of some sort?) In a related scenario, however, this could be a concept where Mata Nui takes an "Uncle Sam" role and says "I want you". Like the Av-Matoran were "drafted" for their "army".Edit: Thanks to Bones for giving me a slight understanding of the Matoran life spans.

Edited July 15, 2013 by darkslizer

[Katuko]

However, it might just be that Av-Matoran have a life span (I was never very educated on life spans and romance in the bionicle universe) and they simply populate the Bohrok army when they "die".I mean, if I were a Great Being, I would want to put a dead Matoran to some use besides filling up the ground. (I'm also not well educated on what they do with their dead. Burial, cremation, a mummification of some sort?)

Av-Matoran seem to have a comparatively short life span. Every other sentient being we know of in the Matoran Universe lives for thousands of years. Then again, recent comments from Greg has made it clear that Takua was the first Matoran created, and he is still alive and kicking with no trouble. It seems likely that only some Av-Matoran transform, and only when they reach the end of their natural lifespan. This (shortened) natural lifespan would then be programmed into their core, triggering the transformation. Maybe Toa-destined Av-Matoran were exempt from this, explaining why Takua never transformed. Or who knows, maybe he would eventually, but his Bohrok time had not come yet when he became a Toa instead.Romance among MU beings are pretty much a non-issue. They can form powerful friendships akin to love as we know it (Macku/Hewkii being as close as it gets), but since they don't reproduce biologically it doesn't go beyond that. New Matoran can be constructed somehow (never been revealed exactly how the tech would work) but only on very rare occassions after being sanctioned by a Turaga.Dead Matoran and other MU beings have their corpses seem to fade from existence after a while. Lhikan disappeared some time after his death, as did Jaller's original body. Revelations about the Red Star's purpose tells us that the Great Beings have designed it to teleport dead beings to itself, where they can then be reconstructed and revived in order to be sent back with the same spirit they had. A good way to recycle expensive equipment, I guess. However, the send-back doesn't work, and so those who die in the Matoran Universe (like Lhikan) never returned after all. It has been confirmed that at least Mavrah and likely others are still alive up in the Star, just stuck with no means of leaving. Those who die without leaving a body (like Carapar or Matoro) cannot be grabbed by the Red Star.I don't know how the Great Beings intended the Bohrok hordes to work, but considering that they are mechanical and in such huge numbers I don't think all of them are former Av-Matoran. There weren't all that many Av-Matoran left in the universe, and Matoran are not created frequently. Edited July 15, 2013 by Katuko

[Art Vandelay]

I also wonder how it is determined which type of Bohrok the Av-Matoran transforms into. The Bohrok have elemental powers of course, and I wonder if each Av-Matoran also has a secondary Bohrok element that can be unlocked when they become a Bohrok, just like their Toa power is unlocked when they become a Toa. This would explain Takua's Ta-Matoran traits if his secondary Bohrok element was fire. (Increased resistance to heat)

 

Just a wild theory of mine.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, 180 posts! I've collected all the noble Kanohi!

Edited July 16, 2013 by Trydeltix

[bonesiii]

I also wonder how it is determined which type of Bohrok the Av-Matoran transforms into. The Bohrok have elemental powers of course, and I wonder if each Av-Matoran also has a secondary Bohrok element that can be unlocked when they become a Bohrok, just like their Toa power is unlocked when they become a Toa. This would explain Takua's Ta-Matoran traits if his secondary Bohrok element was fire. (Increased resistance to heat)

 

Just a wild theory of mine.

I wouldn't rule that out, but once it was decided Av-Matoran would go in disguise as belonging to other elements, they had to go somewhere anyways, so this certainly isn't necessary to explain their placement. Also, as far as I know, the only "Ta-Matoran" trait he had was his color scheme, which comes from the Av-Matoran color-changing trait.

 

Probably the answer to your first sentence is, "whichever type of Bohrok is needed."

 

A third possibility is that certain Av-Matoran's color preferences (Tanma green, Solek white, etc.) come from a personality-based liking for one of the six main elements, and this is enough to tip the balance of what Bohrok they'll turn into, without any actual hidden powers.

[Art Vandelay]

 

I wouldn't rule that out, but once it was decided Av-Matoran would go in disguise as belonging to other elements, they had to go somewhere anyways, so this certainly isn't necessary to explain their placement. Also, as far as I know, the only "Ta-Matoran" trait he had was his color scheme, which comes from the Av-Matoran color-changing trait.

 

I was basing the Takua's heat resistance thing off of the fact that he lived comfortably in Ta-Koro and lava surfed a few times. Other than there were no other apparent Ta-Matoran traits. This could be just because he adapted well, but I don't know.

 

 

 

 

Probably the answer to your first sentence is, "whichever type of Bohrok is needed."

 

A third possibility is that certain Av-Matoran's color preferences (Tanma green, Solek white, etc.) come from a personality-based liking for one of the six main elements, and this is enough to tip the balance of what Bohrok they'll turn into, without any actual hidden powers.

 

That's a good point. Its kind of like how when Matoran become Toa, they end up looking like what their own mental image of a Toa is. Only here its what the Av-Toran's personal favorite element that turns them into whichever Bohrok.

[bonesiii]

I don't think he did live comfortably in Ta-Koro; that's probably a big part of the reason why he preferred to be out adventuring (although to be fair many of those adventures did end up being around lava).

 

As I've pointed out in a post a long time ago, the lava that ends up in the lava river has traveled from the Great Furnace through underground pipes (under the Silver Sea which might possibly reach it with a slight cooling effect beyond just what the rock would do) to the Great Barrier (the base of the dome ceiling of Metru Nui) and up through many more miles along that dome ceiling, then into the caldera of the Mangai itself where it is exposed to air... and then down the lava river toward Ta-Koro, exposed to air during most if not all of that way.

 

So by the time it reaches the stretches of the river used for lava surfing it actually might be quite cool compared to what we normally think of for lava. It's important to keep in mind that it is produced in Ta-Metru by superheating purified protowater, which is liquid even at room temperature. So it may be only a little hot, with a residual glow, possibly not even up to boiling temperature of real water.

 

And living in Ta-Koro itself would have even more cooling due to the open hole in the lava tube above it, allowing hot air to rise out and cool air to sink in directly onto the island in the lava lake. So, probably both for lava surfing and for living in Ta-Koro, the temperatures were "lower than superhot" enough to be bearable for Takua, without a need for special heat resistance. The Ta-Matoran's heat resistance would just make them more comfortable and possibly enable them to survive a bit longer if they did happen to fall in.

 

There's some evidence for this too in the first movie, because the mask of light itself is briefly in the lava and yet does not noticeably melt, still functions, etc. and Takua is able to pull it out safely.

 

 

Edit: Plus, lava surfing would make "apparent wind" due to moving fast, which might cool him down enough.

Edited July 16, 2013 by bonesiii

[northmarch]

Even in Bionicle, I find it difficult to imagine that most Bohrok were once Av-Matoran. Since there're clearly more Bohrok in one sub-Mata nui nest then the entire matoran population of Metru nui. plus Mata nui would have needed a healthy supply of Bohrok from the start.I tend to think of it that the sub-Metru nui Bohrok are the former Av-Matoran. Since there were relatively few of them. Occasionally a few might migrate to replenish the main sub-Mata nui nests.Think there could be more secondary nests elsewhere in the universe? I'm sure there would be usefull.@Bones on molten proto: in BL#5 Jaller seemed convinced he could survive in lava at least long enough to get the mask of life... Then die.

[fishers64]

Even in Bionicle, I find it difficult to imagine that most Bohrok were once Av-Matoran. Since there're clearly more Bohrok in one sub-Mata nui nest then the entire matoran population of Metru nui. plus Mata nui would have needed a healthy supply of Bohrok from the start.I tend to think of it that the sub-Metru nui Bohrok are the former Av-Matoran. Since there were relatively few of them. Occasionally a few might migrate to replenish the main sub-Mata nui nests.Think there could be more secondary nests elsewhere in the universe? I'm sure there would be usefull.@Bones on molten proto: in BL#5 Jaller seemed convinced he could survive in lava at least long enough to get the mask of life... Then die.

 

But that's a Toa. Also, Jaller could be wrong about that.

 

Also the GBs could have made, like two thousand Av-Matoran and transformed them all at once. It's possible.

[Art Vandelay]

 

Even in Bionicle, I find it difficult to imagine that most Bohrok were once Av-Matoran. Since there're clearly more Bohrok in one sub-Mata nui nest then the entire matoran population of Metru nui. plus Mata nui would have needed a healthy supply of Bohrok from the start.I tend to think of it that the sub-Metru nui Bohrok are the former Av-Matoran. Since there were relatively few of them. Occasionally a few might migrate to replenish the main sub-Mata nui nests.Think there could be more secondary nests elsewhere in the universe? I'm sure there would be usefull.@Bones on molten proto: in BL#5 Jaller seemed convinced he could survive in lava at least long enough to get the mask of life... Then die.

 

But that's a Toa. Also, Jaller could be wrong about that.

 

Also the GBs could have made, like two thousand Av-Matoran and transformed them all at once. It's possible.

 

Or they could have just made a few thousand Bohrok without making Av-Matoran first.

[fishers64]

 

 

Even in Bionicle, I find it difficult to imagine that most Bohrok were once Av-Matoran. Since there're clearly more Bohrok in one sub-Mata nui nest then the entire matoran population of Metru nui. plus Mata nui would have needed a healthy supply of Bohrok from the start.I tend to think of it that the sub-Metru nui Bohrok are the former Av-Matoran. Since there were relatively few of them. Occasionally a few might migrate to replenish the main sub-Mata nui nests.Think there could be more secondary nests elsewhere in the universe? I'm sure there would be usefull.@Bones on molten proto: in BL#5 Jaller seemed convinced he could survive in lava at least long enough to get the mask of life... Then die.

 

But that's a Toa. Also, Jaller could be wrong about that.

 

Also the GBs could have made, like two thousand Av-Matoran and transformed them all at once. It's possible.

 

Or they could have just made a few thousand Bohrok without making Av-Matoran first.

 

Either is possible. I don't have any information either way.

[Art Vandelay]

I don't think he did live comfortably in Ta-Koro; that's probably a big part of the reason why he preferred to be out adventuring (although to be fair many of those adventures did end up being around lava).

 

As I've pointed out in a post a long time ago, the lava that ends up in the lava river has traveled from the Great Furnace through underground pipes (under the Silver Sea which might possibly reach it with a slight cooling effect beyond just what the rock would do) to the Great Barrier (the base of the dome ceiling of Metru Nui) and up through many more miles along that dome ceiling, then into the caldera of the Mangai itself where it is exposed to air... and then down the lava river toward Ta-Koro, exposed to air during most if not all of that way.

 

So by the time it reaches the stretches of the river used for lava surfing it actually might be quite cool compared to what we normally think of for lava. It's important to keep in mind that it is produced in Ta-Metru by superheating purified protowater, which is liquid even at room temperature. So it may be only a little hot, with a residual glow, possibly not even up to boiling temperature of real water.

 

And living in Ta-Koro itself would have even more cooling due to the open hole in the lava tube above it, allowing hot air to rise out and cool air to sink in directly onto the island in the lava lake. So, probably both for lava surfing and for living in Ta-Koro, the temperatures were "lower than superhot" enough to be bearable for Takua, without a need for special heat resistance. The Ta-Matoran's heat resistance would just make them more comfortable and possibly enable them to survive a bit longer if they did happen to fall in.

 

There's some evidence for this too in the first movie, because the mask of light itself is briefly in the lava and yet does not noticeably melt, still functions, etc. and Takua is able to pull it out safely.

 

 

Edit: Plus, lava surfing would make "apparent wind" due to moving fast, which might cool him down enough.

I think you're right that the Mata Nui lava is somewhat cooler than the lava in Ta-Metru, but for a glow to be produced, I would think the lava has to be at least as hot as fire. The Mask of Light would probably have melted if it were in the lava for much longer, but it really was only in there briefly. Masks I assume are able to survive a brief exposure to lava.

 

Also Ta-Matoran have remarked before that lava surfing is dangerous, and remember that Takua narrowly escaped death in the first movie when he was surfing across the lava back to Jaller.

[bonesiii]

 

 

 

Even in Bionicle, I find it difficult to imagine that most Bohrok were once Av-Matoran. Since there're clearly more Bohrok in one sub-Mata nui nest then the entire matoran population of Metru nui. plus Mata nui would have needed a healthy supply of Bohrok from the start.I tend to think of it that the sub-Metru nui Bohrok are the former Av-Matoran. Since there were relatively few of them. Occasionally a few might migrate to replenish the main sub-Mata nui nests.Think there could be more secondary nests elsewhere in the universe? I'm sure there would be usefull.@Bones on molten proto: in BL#5 Jaller seemed convinced he could survive in lava at least long enough to get the mask of life... Then die.

 

But that's a Toa. Also, Jaller could be wrong about that.

 

Also the GBs could have made, like two thousand Av-Matoran and transformed them all at once. It's possible.

Or they could have just made a few thousand Bohrok without making Av-Matoran first.

Either is possible. I don't have any information either way.

We do have some evidence for both alternatives. For "all-Av": The Bahrag refer to the Toa fighting the Bohrok as fighting their brothers, meaning relatives within the larger Matoran kind, with no hint that some might not actually be related. On the other hand, it would seem unusually cruel for the GBs to make a bunch of new beings just to basically kill them. On the other other hand, the GBs didn't know they were fully sapient.

 

Despite the evidence for it, I still lean against it just because it seems inefficient and cruel, even if they only thought of them as somewhat intelligent (Greg even said partially sentient, recall).

 

Of course, if you take my reasoning to its natural conclusion, Bohrok would never be made from Av-Matoran so I admit my preference is on shaky ground.

 

Also Ta-Matoran have remarked before that lava surfing is dangerous, and remember that Takua narrowly escaped death in the first movie when he was surfing across the lava back to Jaller.

Just in case I wasn't clear, even under my "residual glow" theory (which I do doubt), all of this would still be true. Greg confirmed at least that spending too much time in the lava would be fatal. I just don't think we know quite how much time that is (and it probably increases the farther from the Mangai you get as the lava cools).