481 replies to this topic

[Roablin]

Well, I know you guys are already making your own plans, and they are very interesting. But my answer to the original question is elements, and character customization. Elements are what generally define the fighting aspect of Bionicle, and they could make a game unique if they were one of the main focuses. Secondly you have masks and thirdly and least important, tools and armor. So the idea is that you start out making your character, choosing the element, and a basic mask and tool. You fight or do whatever, and the incentive to keep playing is to collect more and better masks and tools. So basically the majority of my work would go into creating and balancing cool powers. Add a few maps and it would be finished.

My suggestion to your game, once you get to that point, you could add exo-toa. They could basically function exactly like the trolls/ents in Lord of the Rings: Conquest.

[UltraHau]

Well, I know you guys are already making your own plans, and they are very interesting. But my answer to the original question is elements, and character customization. Elements are what generally define the fighting aspect of Bionicle, and they could make a game unique if they were one of the main focuses. Secondly you have masks and thirdly and least important, tools and armor. So the idea is that you start out making your character, choosing the element, and a basic mask and tool. You fight or do whatever, and the incentive to keep playing is to collect more and better masks and tools. So basically the majority of my work would go into creating and balancing cool powers. Add a few maps and it would be finished.

My suggestion to your game, once you get to that point, you could add exo-toa. They could basically function exactly like the trolls/ents in Lord of the Rings: Conquest.

I have a few problems with that idea:

• Have you seen Bionicle Fighter? Look how much trouble Katuko has balancing less than 15 powers. Not to mention Bionicle Fighter is already based around elements, so I don't see how it would make this game unique.
• Making each character's abilities centered around elements and masks is both too hard to balance and too limited. For example, I came up with a Portal-style character class that can only shoot portals, nothing else. I'm not sure how that would fit in with an element.
• Rewarding veteran players with better equipment only drives away newbie players. Take a look at Team Fortress 2 and Teeworlds (the latter happens to be my favorite 2D shooter): The only thing separating a newbie from a veteran is experience, not equipment. That really helps to level the playing field.

Also, concerning Exo-Toa: We had actually come up with that very thing a page or so back in the thread.

I appreciate the input, it's just that 1) balancing out a bunch of elements is very time-consuming and 2) too limiting in terms of gameplay.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Character customization is definitely a bad thing as far as balance goes, but I agree that we should focus on elements and mask powers as character abilities over weapons in order to keep the Bionicle feel; in fact, Bionicle doesn't even have weapons, officially! (Those swords and guns that everybody carries around? They're "tools")

A quick word on unlockables: giving new players exactly the same weapons/classes/abilities may put them on an even playing field, but you run the risk of overwhelming new players with choices. I remember the first time I played Bionicle Fighter; I was completely lost and I still can't make sense of most of it. I like the TF2 approach of unlocking more complex and more focused, but never better overall, weapons as you go on. Also, unlockables give a reason to keep playing.

Edited by Jedi Knight Krazy, Nov 08 2011 - 04:43 PM.

[UltraHau]

Character customization is definitely a bad thing as far as balance goes, but I agree that we should focus on elements and mask powers as character abilities over weapons in order to keep the Bionicle feel; in fact, Bionicle doesn't even have weapons, officially! (Those swords and guns that everybody carries around? They're "tools")

A quick word on unlockables: giving new players exactly the same weapons/classes/abilities may put them on an even playing field, but you run the risk of overwhelming new players with choices. I remember the first time I played Bionicle Fighter; I was completely lost and I still can't make sense of most of it. I like the TF2 approach of unlocking more complex and more focused, but never better overall, weapons as you go on. Also, unlockables give a reason to keep playing.

• BH was willing to step away from element-based weapons for the most part, and it worked beautifully. Additionally, like I said before, using purely element/mask-based powers would probably mean the game would be less creative. Also, I believe zamor spheres, squid launchers, and Rhotuka launchers count as non-element-based weapons.
• How can a new player be overwhelmed by probably less than 10 total classes?
• Unlockables are a reason to keep playing, but there are plenty of other, more long-lasting, reasons. Take a look at both Quake III Arena (probably the greatest [and earliest] networked FPS of all time) and its descendant, Warsow. Neither game included unlockables, though you could pick up weapons strewn around the map. Why do people keep playing both games? Because they want to beat other people with pure skill. They want to be the best in tournaments. Beating other people purely on account of skill is a great feeling, and unlockables can really take it away.

[alpha123]

I'm very against unlockables, for most of the reasons UltraHau gave. They may be an incentive for players to keep playing, but IMO they discourage new players. Also, I've never been overwhelmed by BIONICLE Fighter. If anything, I like that so much is available at the very beginning.

I do think things should be pretty element-focused; after all, BIONICLE is pretty element-focused.

Edited by alpha123, Nov 09 2011 - 01:37 AM.

[Bulik]

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

Edited by Bulik, Nov 09 2011 - 07:14 AM.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Character customization is definitely a bad thing as far as balance goes, but I agree that we should focus on elements and mask powers as character abilities over weapons in order to keep the Bionicle feel; in fact, Bionicle doesn't even have weapons, officially! (Those swords and guns that everybody carries around? They're "tools")

A quick word on unlockables: giving new players exactly the same weapons/classes/abilities may put them on an even playing field, but you run the risk of overwhelming new players with choices. I remember the first time I played Bionicle Fighter; I was completely lost and I still can't make sense of most of it. I like the TF2 approach of unlocking more complex and more focused, but never better overall, weapons as you go on. Also, unlockables give a reason to keep playing.

• BH was willing to step away from element-based weapons for the most part, and it worked beautifully. Additionally, like I said before, using purely element/mask-based powers would probably mean the game would be less creative. Also, I believe zamor spheres, squid launchers, and Rhotuka launchers count as non-element-based weapons.
• How can a new player be overwhelmed by probably less than 10 total classes?
• Unlockables are a reason to keep playing, but there are plenty of other, more long-lasting, reasons. Take a look at both Quake III Arena (probably the greatest [and earliest] networked FPS of all time) and its descendant, Warsow. Neither game included unlockables, though you could pick up weapons strewn around the map. Why do people keep playing both games? Because they want to beat other people with pure skill. They want to be the best in tournaments. Beating other people purely on account of skill is a great feeling, and unlockables can really take it away.

1. Maybe I have to play Bionicle Heroes again, but I thought that the weapons were very element-based. However, I think that Bionicle is more about abilities than weapons, and I think that adding RPG-style abilities (but not the ability to level up, of course) in addition to a primary weapon would make this feel a lot more Bionicle-like.
2. I think we settled on twelve: six Toa/Skakdi, six Vahki/Rahkshi. You're right, though, it's not a lot and if we organize it well (check out Team Fortress 2's class selection: their nine classes are split into three categories: offense, defense, and support) a new player will be able to jump right in.
3. You're right - the disadvantages of unlockables far outweigh anything we'd gain. Maybe we could do achievements to get some easy replayability?

[Chibinuva]

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

Probably this. Plus, that way it's mostly fair, since everyone has access to them, and it gives you a temporary advantage (which could be limited by say, only a small amount of ammo for no way to refill it.) If elements are going to be classes, how exactly would it work? (masks could work like perks, with say, a volitak as a ghost perk, or kakama for an unlimited sprinting perk.)
edit: @JKK: They were kinda element-based, but with each element being a certain type of weapon (stone=rocket launcher, earth=RPG, water=infantry, fire=heavy weapons, ice=sniper, air=rifleman.)

Edited by Hyper Rarity, Nov 09 2011 - 10:04 AM.

[UltraHau]

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

I think I actually prefer each class getting only one (or maybe more) weapon, and then having to use only that weapon for the duration of the game. Team Fortress 2 went with this approach - you can't pick up weapons lying around the map - and this makes people think more about which class they want to use.

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

Probably this. Plus, that way it's mostly fair, since everyone has access to them, and it gives you a temporary advantage (which could be limited by say, only a small amount of ammo for no way to refill it.) If elements are going to be classes, how exactly would it work? (masks could work like perks, with say, a volitak as a ghost perk, or kakama for an unlimited sprinting perk.)
edit: @JKK: They were kinda element-based, but with each element being a certain type of weapon (stone=rocket launcher, earth=RPG, water=infantry, fire=heavy weapons, ice=sniper, air=rifleman.)

Having each element have different abilities like in BH sounds good; the only thing I'm worried about is sticking too close to an element-based theme. For example, BH basically introduced rocket launchers and RPGs into the Bionicle universe, because TT wasn't afraid to deviate from the normal element-based weapon style that Bionicle often uses, and had a better, more creative array of weapons as a result.

Having each mask give a custom ability sounds interesting, but I wouldn't want to do it because 1) makes classes less important 2) throws the entire game out of balance - imagine a heavy running around with Kiril 3) is hard to implement; drawing a bunch of masks is no small task 4) doesn't really make sense for the Chaos team - how do Skakdi wear masks?

Character customization is definitely a bad thing as far as balance goes, but I agree that we should focus on elements and mask powers as character abilities over weapons in order to keep the Bionicle feel; in fact, Bionicle doesn't even have weapons, officially! (Those swords and guns that everybody carries around? They're "tools")

A quick word on unlockables: giving new players exactly the same weapons/classes/abilities may put them on an even playing field, but you run the risk of overwhelming new players with choices. I remember the first time I played Bionicle Fighter; I was completely lost and I still can't make sense of most of it. I like the TF2 approach of unlocking more complex and more focused, but never better overall, weapons as you go on. Also, unlockables give a reason to keep playing.

• BH was willing to step away from element-based weapons for the most part, and it worked beautifully. Additionally, like I said before, using purely element/mask-based powers would probably mean the game would be less creative. Also, I believe zamor spheres, squid launchers, and Rhotuka launchers count as non-element-based weapons.
• How can a new player be overwhelmed by probably less than 10 total classes?
• Unlockables are a reason to keep playing, but there are plenty of other, more long-lasting, reasons. Take a look at both Quake III Arena (probably the greatest [and earliest] networked FPS of all time) and its descendant, Warsow. Neither game included unlockables, though you could pick up weapons strewn around the map. Why do people keep playing both games? Because they want to beat other people with pure skill. They want to be the best in tournaments. Beating other people purely on account of skill is a great feeling, and unlockables can really take it away.

1. Maybe I have to play Bionicle Heroes again, but I thought that the weapons were very element-based. However, I think that Bionicle is more about abilities than weapons, and I think that adding RPG-style abilities (but not the ability to level up, of course) in addition to a primary weapon would make this feel a lot more Bionicle-like.
2. I think we settled on twelve: six Toa/Skakdi, six Vahki/Rahkshi. You're right, though, it's not a lot and if we organize it well (check out Team Fortress 2's class selection: their nine classes are split into three categories: offense, defense, and support) a new player will be able to jump right in.
3. You're right - the disadvantages of unlockables far outweigh anything we'd gain. Maybe we could do achievements to get some easy replayability?

• Bionicle is only about abilities in the specific case of Toa. There are plenty of weapons that aren't element based, like Kanoka disk launchers, zamor sphere launchers, and squid launchers, to name a few.
• Achievements aren't all that exciting, IMHO; having the ability to play against other human beings (and the occasional bot) online is all you need.

[Chibinuva]

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

I think I actually prefer each class getting only one (or maybe more) weapon, and then having to use only that weapon for the duration of the game. Team Fortress 2 went with this approach - you can't pick up weapons lying around the map - and this makes people think more about which class they want to use.

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

Probably this. Plus, that way it's mostly fair, since everyone has access to them, and it gives you a temporary advantage (which could be limited by say, only a small amount of ammo for no way to refill it.) If elements are going to be classes, how exactly would it work? (masks could work like perks, with say, a volitak as a ghost perk, or kakama for an unlimited sprinting perk.)
edit: @JKK: They were kinda element-based, but with each element being a certain type of weapon (stone=rocket launcher, earth=RPG, water=infantry, fire=heavy weapons, ice=sniper, air=rifleman.)

Having each element have different abilities like in BH sounds good; the only thing I'm worried about is sticking too close to an element-based theme. For example, BH basically introduced rocket launchers and RPGs into the Bionicle universe, because TT wasn't afraid to deviate from the normal element-based weapon style that Bionicle often uses, and had a better, more creative array of weapons as a result.

Having each mask give a custom ability sounds interesting, but I wouldn't want to do it because 1) makes classes less important 2) throws the entire game out of balance - imagine a heavy running around with Kiril 3) is hard to implement; drawing a bunch of masks is no small task 4) doesn't really make sense for the Chaos team - how do Skakdi wear masks?

Good point about Skakdi (and vahki also.) I was just thinking of having a few masks available like perks, but that's it. We could balance it out though. If we had say, stat points, we could give Toa/Rahkshi kanohi/kraata as perks, but less stat points, and given skakdi/vahki more stat points, but no perks. That way, one species from each group would have certain powers, but have a physical disadvantage, while the other would have a physical advantage, but no special perks. If that's too hard to balance we could do something else for perks instead (special armor made to absorb light or radar waves, protodermis armor to be more blast-resistant, etc.)

[Bulik]

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

I think I actually prefer each class getting only one (or maybe more) weapon, and then having to use only that weapon for the duration of the game. Team Fortress 2 went with this approach - you can't pick up weapons lying around the map - and this makes people think more about which class they want to use.

dont forget cordak blasters. they would be the "rocket launchers" of the game

i like being able to pick up weapons around the map, because then, you arent confined too the one weapon of the class you picked

Probably this. Plus, that way it's mostly fair, since everyone has access to them, and it gives you a temporary advantage (which could be limited by say, only a small amount of ammo for no way to refill it.) If elements are going to be classes, how exactly would it work? (masks could work like perks, with say, a volitak as a ghost perk, or kakama for an unlimited sprinting perk.)
edit: @JKK: They were kinda element-based, but with each element being a certain type of weapon (stone=rocket launcher, earth=RPG, water=infantry, fire=heavy weapons, ice=sniper, air=rifleman.)

Having each element have different abilities like in BH sounds good; the only thing I'm worried about is sticking too close to an element-based theme. For example, BH basically introduced rocket launchers and RPGs into the Bionicle universe, because TT wasn't afraid to deviate from the normal element-based weapon style that Bionicle often uses, and had a better, more creative array of weapons as a result.

Having each mask give a custom ability sounds interesting, but I wouldn't want to do it because 1) makes classes less important 2) throws the entire game out of balance - imagine a heavy running around with Kiril 3) is hard to implement; drawing a bunch of masks is no small task 4) doesn't really make sense for the Chaos team - how do Skakdi wear masks?

Character customization is definitely a bad thing as far as balance goes, but I agree that we should focus on elements and mask powers as character abilities over weapons in order to keep the Bionicle feel; in fact, Bionicle doesn't even have weapons, officially! (Those swords and guns that everybody carries around? They're "tools")

A quick word on unlockables: giving new players exactly the same weapons/classes/abilities may put them on an even playing field, but you run the risk of overwhelming new players with choices. I remember the first time I played Bionicle Fighter; I was completely lost and I still can't make sense of most of it. I like the TF2 approach of unlocking more complex and more focused, but never better overall, weapons as you go on. Also, unlockables give a reason to keep playing.

• BH was willing to step away from element-based weapons for the most part, and it worked beautifully. Additionally, like I said before, using purely element/mask-based powers would probably mean the game would be less creative. Also, I believe zamor spheres, squid launchers, and Rhotuka launchers count as non-element-based weapons.
• How can a new player be overwhelmed by probably less than 10 total classes?
• Unlockables are a reason to keep playing, but there are plenty of other, more long-lasting, reasons. Take a look at both Quake III Arena (probably the greatest [and earliest] networked FPS of all time) and its descendant, Warsow. Neither game included unlockables, though you could pick up weapons strewn around the map. Why do people keep playing both games? Because they want to beat other people with pure skill. They want to be the best in tournaments. Beating other people purely on account of skill is a great feeling, and unlockables can really take it away.

1. Maybe I have to play Bionicle Heroes again, but I thought that the weapons were very element-based. However, I think that Bionicle is more about abilities than weapons, and I think that adding RPG-style abilities (but not the ability to level up, of course) in addition to a primary weapon would make this feel a lot more Bionicle-like.
2. I think we settled on twelve: six Toa/Skakdi, six Vahki/Rahkshi. You're right, though, it's not a lot and if we organize it well (check out Team Fortress 2's class selection: their nine classes are split into three categories: offense, defense, and support) a new player will be able to jump right in.
3. You're right - the disadvantages of unlockables far outweigh anything we'd gain. Maybe we could do achievements to get some easy replayability?

• Bionicle is only about abilities in the specific case of Toa. There are plenty of weapons that aren't element based, like Kanoka disk launchers, zamor sphere launchers, and squid launchers, to name a few.
• Achievements aren't all that exciting, IMHO; having the ability to play against other human beings (and the occasional bot) online is all you need.

\
achievements create more replayability. i wouldnt say, after a few weeks of a game being release without achievents, "I feel like destroying peopl online :trollface:"
if there are various achievments, like killstreaks, having a certain number of kills, kill ratio, number of deaths, etc. would make me want to keep on playing, so i could earn more towars the achievments.

[UltraHau]

I personally think online stats are enough, especially considering achievements can normally be run through in a matter of weeks. I want this game to have multi-year longevity, which achievements just cannot give. Online tournaments and tournament awards also are a help here.

Also, I think masks + powerups should just be left alone for the time being; balancing 12 classes is hard enough as it is, without adding masks, which makes the number of possible combinations that would have to be considered up to num_masks * 12, which is unacceptable IMHO.

Edited by UltraHau, Nov 09 2011 - 02:32 PM.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Yeah... masks and picking up others' weapons is a bad idea from a balance perspective.

Actually.. what if there were certain weapons that could only be picked up? What I mean is that, say, there's a Cordak blaster at a strategic point; once you have it, it works like a rocket launcher, and when you die, you drop it and somebody else can pick it up. It's a weapon that any class can use, but it has very limited ammo and once you're out, the weapon is gone and it'll respawn in the map.

I think there's no disadvantage to having achievements as far as gameplay goes; if you like achievements it'll make the game much better, and if you don't, you can just ignore them. They're probably not very difficult to implement, either, though they're obviously not a priority.

I'm still pushing for abilities over weapons. This is BIONICLE, where a swarm of Bohrok was defeated by digging a tunnel to the ocean, freezing the entrance, then smashing the ice when the Bohrok was in the right place. This is BIONICLE, where three Rahkshi were defeated by getting sucked into a sand-filled tornado, which was promptly set on fire, turning it into glass. If I wanted shotguns and rocket launchers I'd just play Call of Duty.
Toa and Rahkshi have very impressive abilities. Skakdi have elemental powers, too, so it would only take some non-canon hand-waving to make them equivalent to Toa. Same for Vahki.

Edited by Jedi Knight Krazy, Nov 09 2011 - 04:28 PM.

[Bulik]

good point

i prefer, like in RC, you start out with standard weapons, (no classes) and you find all the cool stuff around the map or looting from kills.
although, with the whole elements thing, that wouldnt work out.
but having a sorta physics thing would be cool, like as you said, sand and fire= glass. so toa could combine their powers to do stuff, example
a toa of water is walking around, and two enemy skakdi jump out and attack her. the skadki are using their elemental powers because they can use them when they are together. the toa of water does a wide burst attack (almost like a shotgun) that would effectively weaken the skakdi of fire's flamethrower attack. but then the ice skakdi uses his off-hand attack, freezing all the water, which drops to the ground, so that the fire skakdi can burn the toa to death, but then a toa of ice on a nearby rooftop fire a grenade like elemental attack, which, after hitting the ground, send small fragments into the air and freezing the feet of anybody in the nearby area. the fire skakdi uses his flamethrower to speed up the melting of the ice around his feet, while the ice skakdi (being ice, so he isnt affected by the freeze grenade) shoots his primary elemental attack at the toa of water which was starting to fire more water at the skadki. suddenly a rahkshi of poison jumps in and fires a streeam of poison at all of them. he poisoned the water that was being shot out, and so temporarily the water attack did more damage, which kiled the ice skadki. the rahkshi switches to it's secondary elemental attack(all its energy (ammo) drained), and starts shooting out small bolts of poison (like a infinite ammo weak pistol)

wow, that was alot of writing. my point was: have elements affect other elements

[UltraHau]

Yeah... masks and picking up others' weapons is a bad idea from a balance perspective.

Actually.. what if there were certain weapons that could only be picked up? What I mean is that, say, there's a Cordak blaster at a strategic point; once you have it, it works like a rocket launcher, and when you die, you drop it and somebody else can pick it up. It's a weapon that any class can use, but it has very limited ammo and once you're out, the weapon is gone and it'll respawn in the map.

I think there's no disadvantage to having achievements as far as gameplay goes; if you like achievements it'll make the game much better, and if you don't, you can just ignore them. They're probably not very difficult to implement, either, though they're obviously not a priority.

I'm still pushing for abilities over weapons. This is BIONICLE, where a swarm of Bohrok was defeated by digging a tunnel to the ocean, freezing the entrance, then smashing the ice when the Bohrok was in the right place. This is BIONICLE, where three Rahkshi were defeated by getting sucked into a sand-filled tornado, which was promptly set on fire, turning it into glass. If I wanted shotguns and rocket launchers I'd just play Call of Duty.
Toa and Rahkshi have very impressive abilities. Skakdi have elemental powers, too, so it would only take some non-canon hand-waving to make them equivalent to Toa. Same for Vahki.

Cordak blasters that are strewn around the map sounds good to me, but we can't get carried away with that feature. Also, the reason I want weapons over abilities is that creativity is limited when you choose to use abilities. Additionally, I think another reason to emphasize weapons over abilities is that none of those scenarios are/will be possible with the current state of gaming, unfortunately. On the other hand, we might be arguing for the same thing - I'm fine with element-themed weapons, like in BH.

Edited by UltraHau, Nov 09 2011 - 07:35 PM.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Hmmm, no, I don't think we're arguing for the same thing.

To me, having abilities frees us to do crazier things, rather than limiting our creativity. My reasoning is that Bionicle is fantasy, so we should draw our inspiration more from fantasy games like World of Warcraft, DotA and all of its knockoffs, and even Pokemon, than traditional shooters like Call of Duty and Team Fortress 2.


Even though the scenario that Bulik typed up would be a nightmare to balance, I really like the emergent gameplay that's showcased.

Here's kind of what I have in mind; let's say I'm a Toa of Fire. My primary weapon is a firesword that looks suspiciously like Tahu's. I can use it as a short-range flamethrower, or right-click for an alternate attack - a slow, long-range exploding fireball. That's the element-based weapons you're thinking of.
Now let me list a few, probably stupid, ideas for abilities:
Fire Trap - a ring of fire appears around your enemy and he can't move until it disappears; unless, of course, he's willing to take damage, or he's a Ta-Skakdi.
Bonfire - Create a small flame near you that grows larger over time. The closer you are to it, and the bigger it is, the more power your standard attacks do (as if you're drawing power from it). Of course, the Bonfire can be attacked by an enemy and destroyed. If a Ga-Skakdi gets near it, it's doomed.
Wildfire - Sets a nearby enemy on fire - he takes damage very slowly over time (unless he's a Ko-Skakdi; then he'd take considerably more damage) but any teammate that gets near him will also catch on fire, and so on for teammates that get close to them.

See how I've created a short-range defensive character with really interesting gameplay? That's way more creative than simply giving him a flamethrower like in BH.

[UltraHau]

Hmmm, no, I don't think we're arguing for the same thing.

To me, having abilities frees us to do crazier things, rather than limiting our creativity. My reasoning is that Bionicle is fantasy, so we should draw our inspiration more from fantasy games like World of Warcraft, DotA and all of its knockoffs, and even Pokemon, than traditional shooters like Call of Duty and Team Fortress 2.


Even though the scenario that Bulik typed up would be a nightmare to balance, I really like the emergent gameplay that's showcased.

Here's kind of what I have in mind; let's say I'm a Toa of Fire. My primary weapon is a firesword that looks suspiciously like Tahu's. I can use it as a short-range flamethrower, or right-click for an alternate attack - a slow, long-range exploding fireball. That's the element-based weapons you're thinking of.
Now let me list a few, probably stupid, ideas for abilities:
Fire Trap - a ring of fire appears around your enemy and he can't move until it disappears; unless, of course, he's willing to take damage, or he's a Ta-Skakdi.
Bonfire - Create a small flame near you that grows larger over time. The closer you are to it, and the bigger it is, the more power your standard attacks do (as if you're drawing power from it). Of course, the Bonfire can be attacked by an enemy and destroyed. If a Ga-Skakdi gets near it, it's doomed.
Wildfire - Sets a nearby enemy on fire - he takes damage very slowly over time (unless he's a Ko-Skakdi; then he'd take considerably more damage) but any teammate that gets near him will also catch on fire, and so on for teammates that get close to them.

See how I've created a short-range defensive character with really interesting gameplay? That's way more creative than simply giving him a flamethrower like in BH.

• This would be ridiculously hard to balance - it's like 36-way Rock-Paper-Scissors.
• This would involve a mountain of artwork; 3 powers per class, 3 * 12 = 36 different animation sets. And that's if the Skakdi + Rahkshi have completely identical-looking powers to the Toa + Vahki.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

If you only have objections to the technical feasibility and not the gameplay mechanics, I can work with that.

Let's hold off on Rahkshi/Vahki in the first phases of the game. That makes it just 18-way RPS (I think - I'm not sure how you got the 36 number) and it saves us a lot of 3D artwork, too. Let's face it - we were probably going to wind up with RPS-style class relationships anyways (heck, even TF2 has a bit of RPS) and abilities just let us make it more interesting.

Artwork for abilities is nothing, it's probably just particle effects - it's the modelling and texturing of characters that'll kill us.

[alpha123]

I'm not sure how you got the 36 number

3 [powers per class - this is based on the example you gave above] * 12 [classes] = 36

Anyway, I agree that we should dream big now and think about the implementation later. If we limit ourselves to what we think will be easy to implement, we're going to lose a lot of good ideas. Powers should be pretty easy anyway, assuming Panda has a good particle engine.

[Bulik]

Hmmm, no, I don't think we're arguing for the same thing.

To me, having abilities frees us to do crazier things, rather than limiting our creativity. My reasoning is that Bionicle is fantasy, so we should draw our inspiration more from fantasy games like World of Warcraft, DotA and all of its knockoffs, and even Pokemon, than traditional shooters like Call of Duty and Team Fortress 2.


Even though the scenario that Bulik typed up would be a nightmare to balance, I really like the emergent gameplay that's showcased.

Here's kind of what I have in mind; let's say I'm a Toa of Fire. My primary weapon is a firesword that looks suspiciously like Tahu's. I can use it as a short-range flamethrower, or right-click for an alternate attack - a slow, long-range exploding fireball. That's the element-based weapons you're thinking of.
Now let me list a few, probably stupid, ideas for abilities:
Fire Trap - a ring of fire appears around your enemy and he can't move until it disappears; unless, of course, he's willing to take damage, or he's a Ta-Skakdi.
Bonfire - Create a small flame near you that grows larger over time. The closer you are to it, and the bigger it is, the more power your standard attacks do (as if you're drawing power from it). Of course, the Bonfire can be attacked by an enemy and destroyed. If a Ga-Skakdi gets near it, it's doomed.
Wildfire - Sets a nearby enemy on fire - he takes damage very slowly over time (unless he's a Ko-Skakdi; then he'd take considerably more damage) but any teammate that gets near him will also catch on fire, and so on for teammates that get close to them.

See how I've created a short-range defensive character with really interesting gameplay? That's way more creative than simply giving him a flamethrower like in BH.

• This would involve a mountain of artwork; 3 powers per class, 3 * 12 = 36 different animation sets. And that's if the Skakdi + Rahkshi have completely identical-looking powers to the Toa + Vahki.

look, it wont be that hard to model the attacks. its just mostly particle affects and you could have the same animation for each toa to start out. a weapon slash, a lunge (that shoots an element)
and a throwing motion for an off-hand attack (the bonfire)

[UltraHau]

Well, I guess I'm fine with element-based powers, though I still think they limit creativity a little bit - how are we going to have a medic class, for example? - but I'm OK with them for now.

look, it wont be that hard to model the attacks. its just mostly particle affects and you could have the same animation for each toa to start out. a weapon slash, a lunge (that shoots an element)
and a throwing motion for an off-hand attack (the bonfire)

Someone still has to draw the sprites for the particle effects, you know

[Eduard Bernstein]

Medic class - Toa with a Mask of Healing.
'Nuff said.
-Dovydas

[Katuko]

I find it funny that what you guys have described on this last page was my original idea (and dream) for what ended up becoming BIONICLE Fighter. A 3D third-person action game where elements and other personal abilities was the main focus. Worms-like terrain that would be affected by powers. The ability to target different things and getting different results. Playing as different species customized with weapons and tools.

But yeah, it was waaaay above my skill level, so it ended up being degraded to 2D almost immediately. Then I axed all species except Toa and Rahkshi, and ditched the Worms terrain idea.

I must say that with proper planning, having a lot of different powers isn't that far-fetched. If you just have a generic "throw" animation, then you can trigger virtually any projectile attack at the end of it as long as you make the code accept variables. Their effects on the environment is another story, however, and that is what can cause issues. I'm already having some trouble juggling all the different effects for fire/poison/freezing/blind etc and make sure they don't create conflict.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Well, I guess I'm fine with element-based powers, though I still think they limit creativity a little bit - how are we going to have a medic class, for example? - but I'm OK with them for now.

Someone still has to draw the sprites for the particle effects, you know

After seeing MoL and reading a couple fanfics, I've always seen water as having curing powers. Here are some suggestions with that in mind:

Curing Mist - The surrounding area causes teammates to slowly heal for the next 10 seconds
Wave Shield - The targeted teammate is surrounded by water, which protects them from attacks until the shield is destroyed
Floodwaters - All opponents within a stream are pushed back

This is a character that's also defensive; oddly enough, they'd team up well with the Toa of Fire I described.

Regarding particle sprites - heck, I'll do it. *opens GIMP and scribbles*

@Katuko: There's actually a few new ideas in there! I don't think the idea of Worms-style terrain ever occurred to us - in 3D it'd be a nightmare... you're basically talking about voxel terrain.

And what do you mean by targeting different things and getting different results? Do you mean (for example) if I'm a Toa of Fire, and I shoot another Toa of Fire, I might accidentally heal them instead of hurt them? (I hear something similar happened to Vakama vs. Morbuzahk)
I don't want to speak for the rest of us, but that sounds like something that doesn't fit in our fast-paced team game. I think the most I'd want to see is a a weakened/strengthened/no result depending on the element of your target. (so Fire vs Fire would be, as they say, "not very effective!", but it'll get the job done... eventually)

Edited by Jedi Knight Krazy, Nov 11 2011 - 09:29 AM.

[Katuko]

@Katuko: There's actually a few new ideas in there! I don't think the idea of Worms-style terrain ever occurred to us - in 3D it'd be a nightmare... you're basically talking about voxel terrain.

Which is why the idea was turned 2D at once, then scrapped.

And what do you mean by targeting different things and getting different results? Do you mean (for example) if I'm a Toa of Fire, and I shoot another Toa of Fire, I might accidentally heal them instead of hurt them?

I meant that you would have a "context-sensitive" power. For example, imagine Zelda on the N64. Pressing B would always use the sword but A had different functions depending on what you were doing at the time. If you were running you would roll, and if you were next to door you would open it. Imagine a third-person shooter type of view. If you press primary mouse button you would fire a regular elemental blast, but if you used the secondary various things could happen. Pointing at a campfire or torch = absorb it. Pointing at an enemy = explosive fireball. Pointing at something flammable = ignite it.

My original idea was to have a view more like Bioshock, however: Primary fire to swing your physical weapon, secondary to use an elemental blast.


Regarding element vs element, I have considered allowing players to absorb blasts coming from the same element as themselves in my game. They already got certain resistances, though (Fire overheats slower, Stone can ignore half of all knockback force, etc), so I think I'll drop it.

Edited by Katuko, Nov 11 2011 - 10:38 AM.

[UltraHau]

@Katuko: There's actually a few new ideas in there! I don't think the idea of Worms-style terrain ever occurred to us - in 3D it'd be a nightmare... you're basically talking about voxel terrain.

Which is why the idea was turned 2D at once, then scrapped.

And what do you mean by targeting different things and getting different results? Do you mean (for example) if I'm a Toa of Fire, and I shoot another Toa of Fire, I might accidentally heal them instead of hurt them?

I meant that you would have a "context-sensitive" power. For example, imagine Zelda on the N64. Pressing B would always use the sword but A had different functions depending on what you were doing at the time. If you were running you would roll, and if you were next to door you would open it. Imagine a third-person shooter type of view. If you press primary mouse button you would fire a regular elemental blast, but if you used the secondary various things could happen. Pointing at a campfire or torch = absorb it. Pointing at an enemy = explosive fireball. Pointing at something flammable = ignite it.

My original idea was to have a view more like Bioshock, however: Primary fire to swing your physical weapon, secondary to use an elemental blast.


Regarding element vs element, I have considered allowing players to absorb blasts coming from the same element as themselves in my game. They already got certain resistances, though (Fire overheats slower, Stone can ignore half of all knockback force, etc), so I think I'll drop it.

Voxel-based terrain is certainly possible with Panda3D - I saw a Minecraft clone on the Panda forums once - but I'm not sure how such terrain would impact gameplay.

As for context-sensitive powers: I think in fast-paced game, like this one will probably be, context-sensitive powers would be both too difficult and frustrating to use.

Well, I guess I'm fine with element-based powers, though I still think they limit creativity a little bit - how are we going to have a medic class, for example? - but I'm OK with them for now.

Someone still has to draw the sprites for the particle effects, you know

After seeing MoL and reading a couple fanfics, I've always seen water as having curing powers. Here are some suggestions with that in mind:

Curing Mist - The surrounding area causes teammates to slowly heal for the next 10 seconds
Wave Shield - The targeted teammate is surrounded by water, which protects them from attacks until the shield is destroyed
Floodwaters - All opponents within a stream are pushed back

This is a character that's also defensive; oddly enough, they'd team up well with the Toa of Fire I described.

Those powers sound good to me; incidentally, I foresee a Heavy-Medic style relationship with the Fire-Water classes if we use the powers you came up with

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Woohoo, I'm back after a week of bluescreening! Out of curiosity, if Windows has the Blue Screen of Death and Mac OS has the Kernel Panic, what does Linux do in the event of catastrophic hardware failure?

Yeah, regarding voxel terrain, I don't doubt Panda's capabilities, but it seems like a lot of effort just to give ourselves yet another balancing headache and (probably) chunky-looking terrain. Let's leave destructible environments to the pros.

I agree on context-sensitive powers in a multiplayer action game... I think that it's important for any game that requires fast reflexes to avoid "wrong button" frustration as much as possible, and one button that does different things is just asking for problems.

[UltraHau]

Woohoo, I'm back after a week of bluescreening! Out of curiosity, if Windows has the Blue Screen of Death and Mac OS has the Kernel Panic, what does Linux do in the event of catastrophic hardware failure?

Yeah, regarding voxel terrain, I don't doubt Panda's capabilities, but it seems like a lot of effort just to give ourselves yet another balancing headache and (probably) chunky-looking terrain. Let's leave destructible environments to the pros.

I agree on context-sensitive powers in a multiplayer action game... I think that it's important for any game that requires fast reflexes to avoid "wrong button" frustration as much as possible, and one button that does different things is just asking for problems.

Linux also has a Kernel Panic (it came before OSX's, actually) - I've only seen it once though (and that one time was my fault). Also, I'm fine with no voxel terrain for the time being - still, there are other, faster ways of having destructible terrain, like mesh deformation - that I think should be considered.

One other thing: If we're all serious about this, I'll create a Git repository on GitHub for us to work with, since I already have a GH account for other purposes. In case anyone's wondering "why use a code repository instead of a file-hosting service?" There are several reasons:

• Every change you make to the code is saved, along with a short line explaining what you changed and why. This way, if you make a mistake while writing code, and then save that source file, you can merely revert to your last saved change
• Multiple developers can download a copy of their source code to their own personal repository (located on their own computer) and receive all the above advantages, without overwriting anyone else's copy
• Version control also acts as a sort of automatic backup service; all the developer's machines could be destroyed and the code (and change history) is still safe and sound

I hope that explains why using GitHub (or any other repository-hosting service) is the only option (no exceptions) for a large software project like this.

P.S: I need a temporary working name for this game to create a GitHub repository - the repository must have a name. Any suggestions?

Edited by UltraHau, Nov 18 2011 - 10:27 PM.

[Bulik]

just do "bionicle fan made 3d fps"
it is temporary, you know.

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

YES GITHUB SUBSCRIBE ENGAGE GO

A name I was kicking around was "Call of Destiny" - see what I did there?

[UltraHau]

YES GITHUB SUBSCRIBE ENGAGE GO

A name I was kicking around was "Call of Destiny" - see what I did there?

Yes, I see what you did there - very clever sir Call of Destiny it is.

Update: Created a new GitHub repository and wiki - view it here: https://github.com/D...Call-of-Destiny

This is getting really exciting!

[alpha123]

Okay guys, I'm glad we're getting started. However, I'm on vacation in California right now and don't have my development computer. I'll get back December 1st or 2nd.

[Bulik]

Nice name JKK!
The reference to you-know-what makes me laugh.
are we going to see a new topic soon?
oh yeah, you just need some progress :\

[Rix]

Online gameplay or like a World War Bionicle fight

You're in luck! If you haven't been following the last few posts, we're planning to create a Bionicle multiplayer Third-and-First-Person Shooter!

Also something to prevent your ally from fragging you purposely

[UltraHau]

Online gameplay or like a World War Bionicle fight

You're in luck! If you haven't been following the last few posts, we're planning to create a Bionicle multiplayer Third-and-First-Person Shooter!

Also something to prevent your ally from fragging you purposely

Hmm, maybe, maybe not. Adding the ability to get hit by friendly fire may add some interesting gameplay. I'd prefer a "vote-kick" system, to kick trolls and other troublemakers off the server, which I also think is more flexible/expandable.

Oh yeah: This is a hot topic now!

[Bulik]

yeah, its fun having friendly fire because, not onl does it make things more realistic, but it help you learn that what you do can affect your friends as well as you enemies, (somehting like that) and if a trol starts TKing you, then you can kick him/her.

[Rix]

Maybe Slayer like in Halo? I wouldn't really care if it's 'everyman for himself' if my friend kill me or something

Edited by Rix, Nov 22 2011 - 04:31 PM.

[The Lonesome Wanderer]

there should be ranks, identifying that a player has experience at the game, but it doesn't effect game play

[Jedi Knight Krazy]

Maybe Slayer like in Halo? I wouldn't really care if it's 'everyman for himself' if my friend kill me or something

Personally, I think that a "free-for-all" doesn't fit Bionicle very well - it's always been good vs. evil to at least some extent.

there should be ranks, identifying that a player has experience at the game, but it doesn't effect game play

Hmm, it's definitely something to look into. Some sort of prestige system may well be in order to add more depth and incentive to continue playing, but if it doesn't actually affect gameplay it's probably not a priority - and of course, if it does affect gameplay that would give older players an edge, and game experience is enough of an edge in a game like this.

[Rix]

Online gameplay or like a World War Bionicle fight

You're in luck! If you haven't been following the last few posts, we're planning to create a Bionicle multiplayer Third-and-First-Person Shooter!

Also something to prevent your ally from fragging you purposely

Hmm, maybe, maybe not. Adding the ability to get hit by friendly fire may add some interesting gameplay. I'd prefer a "vote-kick" system, to kick trolls and other troublemakers off the server, which I also think is more flexible/expandable.

Oh yeah: This is a hot topic now!

So would fragging AFK or people who are just standing still be ok? I usually do that to players on Halo just to collect their ammo or just for fun.