41464 replies to this topic

[Norik The Blood Elf]

Oh.
http://www.bzpower.c...t=80#entry60251
Here is my new Matoran. How does he join the team in IC? (Unless it's still forming, in which case I can wait.)

[Bane of No Isles]

To anyone who wants to join the aforementioned Vortixx group, PM me by tomorrow night.

[Floridian Citrus]

Because I can't not say anything on the matter.

Gravity =/= Telekinesis.

If that's how you use it, well... Its not all that right. While its not just about making things heavier or lighter, try and atleast use some common sense. Sure, you can move things around with it pretty good, but I'd say to keep in mind what you're actually doing to move those things around, such as directly changing an object's gravitic pull. That's gonna take a bit more out of your character then just increasing/decreasing gravity.

Same goes with fire/plasma, sure you can definately "hover" with it, but wouldn't it be nice to keep in mind the amount of EE it would take to constantly heat the air below you? Heck, that applies to everthing, actually.

Because I don't remember when Toa/Skakdi/whatever had unlimited EE.

[Bane of No Isles]

Also, when giving something a gravity field of its own, assume EVERYTHING is attracted to it, besides other things with a pull.

[Axilus Prime]

The more you increase or decrease gravity, the more energy it would take. Mata Nui has Earth gravity, and thus doing this in relation to the ground is easy.

But if one were to increase the gravity of an object such as a rock, a tree, or even an entire mansion to a significant level, it would still take such a huge load of energy to do it for even five seconds that it could kill the Toa attempting it, because its gravity is hundreds of times less than that of Earth.

[Floridian Citrus]

The more you increase or decrease gravity, the more energy it would take. Mata Nui has Earth gravity, and thus doing this in relation to the ground is easy.

But if one were to increase the gravity of an object such as a rock, a tree, or even an entire mansion to a significant level, it would still take such a huge load of energy to do it for even five seconds that it could kill the Toa attempting it, because its gravity is hundreds of times less than that of Earth.

Actually, I don't believe it would be as bad as you say, as a known power that Toa of Gravity have is the ability to create black holes. Now, how is that done?

[Bane of No Isles]

...

It would not kill them to lift a rock or a tree for over five seconds

Or a mansion if they're any good

[Floridian Citrus]

...

It would not kill them to lift a rock or a tree for over five seconds

Or a mansion if they're any good

...Uh...

When was lifting something with gravity mentioned?

[Bane of No Isles]

I misunderstood TNG's post.

But to be honest, the same goes for that technique as well.

[Floridian Citrus]

Ah, okay. Yes I believe the same would apply. There's being excessive with EP usage, there's being logical, and then there's just nonsensical.

That is, unless your character has a purposeful EE problem, which is always fun to RP.

[ZHX]

Arkrak has a purposeful EE problem.

He ran out sometimes.

Except I haven't used him in fights for ages.

[JL v2]

Gravity isn't just 'Increase/Decrease gravity' from the ground. It isn't going to be hard to increase the gravitational pull of certain objects while negating the pull of others.

You could easily negate the pull of the ground, then increase the pull from the air above a person to send him into space. Although that would be a bit wrong/tiring.

However, you can very easily achieve effects similar to telekinesis, and more.

[ZHX]

Too tired to deal with all this now. Call me tomorrow morning.

[Bulik]

A reminder: Anatomy contest deadline is in nine days.

Ah, yes. I just can't wait to see the results. Make us proud, Katuko!

See, since one person can't have "enormous Flying Fortress" as their piece of tech, each person will have a part of the ship as one of their pieces, and an Epic Weapon as the other.

It'll work, plus its inside the rules.

And no, it won't be 1.6 kil in length.

Well, I suppose that all depends of the propulsion method. If it levitates by a gas that is lighter-than-air, it will most likely be very large to support the weight of any point defenses, artillery pieces, or Bomb bays stored inside. Although, the large size is really for the gas-containment-upper-part-thingie-that-I-cannot-remember-the-proper-word-for, while the gondola, where most PCs will work and shoot from, will be much smaller. Of course, you could try to approve usage of the levitation disk generator thingies used in airships on Metru Nui.

You know what?

All-Vortixx group. I'm making it.

They'll fly around in an advanced airship with large guns.

They'll be more technologically advanced than the entire island.

Yes.

Ooh. Sounds very practical, yet hard to accomplish. If I had the guts to PM a staff member to approve a piece of tech for my vortixx, I'd join.

[The Snark Knight]

Gravity isn't just 'Increase/Decrease gravity' from the ground. It isn't going to be hard to increase the gravitational pull of certain objects while negating the pull of others.

You could easily negate the pull of the ground, then increase the pull from the air above a person to send him into space. Although that would be a bit wrong/tiring.

However, you can very easily achieve effects similar to telekinesis, and more.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

No.

Gravity =/= telekinesis in any way, shape, or form. Can you use gravity to make objects slide in one direction or another? Yes you can. Could you even use it to make them hover, and then move them? Sure.

But telekinesis has precision. Gravity usage in this way doesn't. It's clumsy, and getting things to move the way you want them to if it is any simpler than one object to a different spot in the room requires a great deal of concentration. In fact, it would be simpler to just move the object. Furthermore, I think you overestimate how finely a Toa can control gravity. It's not like controlling water, or iron. It's manipulating a force you can't see, can't touch, can't even really understand. Its properties are more or less unknown to the Mata Nuian world, much like they have no idea what an electron is, or an atom is.

And, to add something to Kughii's list, here is a very common mistake I see. Objects do not have their own specific gravity. They are all affected by the same gravity, the same force. It's not like, say, body heat, which everyone has their own of. Gravity isn't like that. When you raise or lower how gravity is affecting someone or something, you aren't affecting that person directly. You're affecting how the gravity in their location works.

Which is actually the whole point behind the best way to fight a Ba-Toa, but that's neither here nor there.

[Ilyusha Blokfase]

And, to add something to Kughii's list, here is a very common mistake I see. Objects do not have their own specific gravity. They are all affected by the same gravity, the same force.

Everything with mass has its own gravity, Krayzikk. However, while in most cases, it is far too minute to be of any consequence, that is still there, and can still be manipulated by such things as amplifying/decreasing its pull.

[The Snark Knight]

That's now how I understand it, but I haven't taken physics yet. Needless to say, if it is as minute as you say, my strategy still works.

Edited by Krayzikk Bieber, Nov 22 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Meta-Mind]

Gravity isn't just 'Increase/Decrease gravity' from the ground. It isn't going to be hard to increase the gravitational pull of certain objects while negating the pull of others.

You could easily negate the pull of the ground, then increase the pull from the air above a person to send him into space. Although that would be a bit wrong/tiring.

However, you can very easily achieve effects similar to telekinesis, and more.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

No.

Gravity =/= telekinesis in any way, shape, or form. Can you use gravity to make objects slide in one direction or another? Yes you can. Could you even use it to make them hover, and then move them? Sure.

But telekinesis has precision. Gravity usage in this way doesn't. It's clumsy, and getting things to move the way you want them to if it is any simpler than one object to a different spot in the room requires a great deal of concentration. In fact, it would be simpler to just move the object. Furthermore, I think you overestimate how finely a Toa can control gravity. It's not like controlling water, or iron. It's manipulating a force you can't see, can't touch, can't even really understand. Its properties are more or less unknown to the Mata Nuian world, much like they have no idea what an electron is, or an atom is.

Obviously, this would be the case for the most part. However, I don't see why precision use of Gravity couldn't emulate Telekinesis or Flight, just at a higher EE cost and with less precision than, say, a Matatu or a Kadin.

And, to add something to Kughii's list, here is a very common mistake I see. Objects do not have their own specific gravity. They are all affected by the same gravity, the same force. It's not like, say, body heat, which everyone has their own of. Gravity isn't like that. When you raise or lower how gravity is affecting someone or something, you aren't affecting that person directly. You're affecting how the gravity in their location works.

Toa of Gravity are confirmed in-canon to be able to manipulate object's "personal gravity." As far as we know, this could simply be creating a powerful "down force" gravity well based off the target's own own minute natural one (common to all matter), or it could actually be just "the most precise use of Gravity."

[Floridian Citrus]

I do believe that gravity can be used in a way similar to telekinesis, but the mechanics would be much different. With gravity, an object is getting pulled where you want it to go, while telekinesis pushes the object there.

Make sense?

[Ilyusha Blokfase]

That's now how I understand it, but I haven't taken physics yet. Needless to say, if it is as minute as you say, my strategy still works.

Not entirely. Yes, it is minute, but as M-M here just said, it can still be manipulated, as canon has proven. As well, it's...odd physics. I haven't taken physics either, I just read a lot. Basically, the way it works is that, yes, gravity is one single force pervading the universe. However, it is also as though an amount of that force resides within every object that has mass, however small.

While it may seem odd, think about it as though the universe had gravity pulling in only one direction. We'd all be screwed thrice over.

[Bane of No Isles]

Just a reminder-

Sign-ups for the Vortixx are due by tonight.

Spots are filling up very fast, and I can't have too many. PM me if you want to join.

[Constructman: Black Knight]

What are the character creation rules again?

And by what time tonight? In which timezone?

[Bane of No Isles]

They have to be a Vortixx, and one piece of technology must be part of the ship, which I assign.

Sign up by 11:59 PM EST, but I'll be gracious for late sign-ups if a excuse is given and I can see you worked hard on the profile.

[Bulik]

Does the tech item have to be a component of the ship, or can a vortixx be just a crew member, using his tech to help maintain the ship, not run it?

[Nuju Metru]

When did I approve a ship?

[Bane of No Isles]

I was planning on sending it in when all the pieces were together as not to confuse you.

Did you read the last page?

[Nuju Metru]

Yes. I just think it probably would have been wiser to make sure such a ship could even happen before you assemble the Avengers.

[Bane of No Isles]

I didn't see any reason why it couldn't.

[Nuju Metru]

Just considering there are no standing provisions in-game about "combining" foreign tech slots across multiple players to make something bigger, and since this possibility seems to be a main part of the idea for the team, I would expect you'd want to get the ship approved before inviting players to take part in it.

[Meta-Mind]

Yes. I just think it probably would have been wiser to make sure such a ship could even happen before you assemble the Avengers.

...
If we're the Avengers, I think I'll call dibs on being Iron Man.

[Ghosthands]

Just to add my scientific thoughts to the Gravity Debate, I'm gonna say this:

Gravity is not a pull of one object on another. It is both objects pulling EACH OTHER. As I believe has already been said, this is only really noticeable when one or both of the objects in question is, say, a planet. It has to be really huge for gravity to be anything more than an insignificantly weak attraction. But the point is, the planet doesn't just pull on the object. The object pulls on the planet too. So I personally think it's feasible to say that you're changing the gravitational attraction between two objects, and thus have it only affect the object(s) you want it to.

Also, when reading Kughii's post, I seem to remember reading something about gravity holding our bodies together, and that that doesn't happen when we're in space, so we rely on molecular bonds while in space.

Kughii, I liked the rest of your argument, but frankly that part was utter nonsense. Gravity is far too weak at that scale to do practically anything, let alone help hold molecules together. And if you move away from the Earth - so what? Proximity to the Earth doesn't change the attraction of on one object on another.

Bow before the power of SCIENCE!

[Indigo Individual]

The League of Shades/Xerov Plot Update: An Unexpected Sponsor

For anyone who's interested.

- Vorex

Edited by Just Another Vorex, Nov 22 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Floridian Citrus]

Kughii, I liked the rest of your argument, but frankly that part was utter nonsense. Gravity is far too weak at that scale to do practically anything, let alone help hold molecules together. And if you move away from the Earth - so what? Proximity to the Earth doesn't change the attraction of on one object on another.

Bow before the power of SCIENCE!

Actually, its slightly correct, as the air pressure created by gravity holds our bodies together. We're used to this pressure, and so anything less (like a vacuum) would cause us to float apart. Even if our individual cells held together from molecular bonds, we would still turn into mush.

Edited by Frost Dragon, Nov 22 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[Ghosthands]

Kughii, I liked the rest of your argument, but frankly that part was utter nonsense. Gravity is far too weak at that scale to do practically anything, let alone help hold molecules together. And if you move away from the Earth - so what? Proximity to the Earth doesn't change the attraction of on one object on another.

Bow before the power of SCIENCE!

Actually, its slightly correct, as the air pressure created by gravity holds our bodies together. We're used to this pressure, and so anything less (like a vacuum) would cause us to float apart. Even if our individual cells held together from molecular bonds, we would still turn into mush.

Not float. It's called explosive decompression for a reason

And I meant directly affecting it.

[Kaitholas Cage]

*mutters something about molecular bonds being hundreds of times stronger than gravity at that scale*

The pressure thing is applicable, but you'll be dead way before you explode. Blood boiling.

[Meta-Mind]

Kughii, I liked the rest of your argument, but frankly that part was utter nonsense. Gravity is far too weak at that scale to do practically anything, let alone help hold molecules together. And if you move away from the Earth - so what? Proximity to the Earth doesn't change the attraction of on one object on another.

Bow before the power of SCIENCE!

Actually, its slightly correct, as the air pressure created by gravity holds our bodies together. We're used to this pressure, and so anything less (like a vacuum) would cause us to float apart. Even if our individual cells held together from molecular bonds, we would still turn into mush.

It's questionable whether or not this would apply to Bionicle, though, as they have natural metal armor. Plus, in-canon, Artahka, Lewa, and a few Matoran were teleported into space by Teridax and suffered no ill effects except for needing to breathe.

[Ghosthands]

*mutters something about molecular bonds being hundreds of times stronger than gravity at that scale*

The pressure thing is applicable, but you'll be dead way before you explode. Blood boiling.

*billions

[Kughii]

First, I want to say I really enjoyed watching the peaceful discussion about Gravity everyone had. It brought a lot of questions and comments to the forefront and I feel has really helped the community at large. Two things I've noticed, however, that seem a little offbeat are these: people are assuming I wrote some sort of "list" of how Gravity should be played, and two, players are focusing exclusively on my questions and concerns for gravity, not just the general rule of play I had called for at the beginning and the conclusion. These beings, from a metaphysical standpoint, are elemental energy in physical form. Why are we attempting to make an element be something it is not? Here below are a few things I feel as a player I should address.

Also, when giving something a gravity field of its own, assume EVERYTHING is attracted to it, besides other things with a pull.

I do believe I mentioned this in the "Gravity in The Real World" section of my delve. If I did not, please excuse me. This is my pet peeves with the way gravity is currently used in the Bionicle world -- it's too precise and does not affect its surroundings, only the pinpoint item. I do not believe in that way of play, as it feels like it's infringing on telekinesis in my opinion.

And, to add something to Kughii's list, here is a very common mistake I see. Objects do not have their own specific gravity. They are all affected by the same gravity, the same force. It's not like, say, body heat, which everyone has their own of. Gravity isn't like that. When you raise or lower how gravity is affecting someone or something, you aren't affecting that person directly. You're affecting how the gravity in their location works.

Thank you Krayzikk. This idea of shared gravity seems to be a common thread running through the minds of players in this community. This is a great example of how to make an element all its own, let the character be one element 100%, not dabbling into multiple areas of elemental prowess.

Just to add my scientific thoughts to the Gravity Debate, I'm gonna say this:

Gravity is not a pull of one object on another. It is both objects pulling EACH OTHER. As I believe has already been said, this is only really noticeable when one or both of the objects in question is, say, a planet. It has to be really huge for gravity to be anything more than an insignificantly weak attraction. But the point is, the planet doesn't just pull on the object. The object pulls on the planet too. So I personally think it's feasible to say that you're changing the gravitational attraction between two objects, and thus have it only affect the object(s) you want it to.

Also, when reading Kughii's post, I seem to remember reading something about gravity holding our bodies together, and that that doesn't happen when we're in space, so we rely on molecular bonds while in space.

Kughii, I liked the rest of your argument, but frankly that part was utter nonsense. Gravity is far too weak at that scale to do practically anything, let alone help hold molecules together. And if you move away from the Earth - so what? Proximity to the Earth doesn't change the attraction of on one object on another.

Bow before the power of SCIENCE!

I will gladly bow before science. As I said at the beginning of my delve, I am not a master of the subject, and only used what I knew or believed to be true. Errors were bound to crop up and I'm incredibly fortunate to have someone correct them for me! Again, your first paragraph seem to hit the nail on the head of a mutual shared force. This is three in a row practically of players mentioned gravity as a shared, not isolated, force. You're third paragraph seems addressed to me as a player, so I'm going to respond in turn: I don't quite understand what you're saying as it leads out of the second paragraph. I'm sorry, but could you clarify in a pm? THANKS!



Conclusion

From what I've read so far in this continued discussion, this is what I've gathered. There is a general notion among players who have been around for less time that gravity equals super-strong telekinesis. This thought is branded as incorrect by more veteran players, and I have to slide in with the branding in my on conscience. The other large notion is the concept of gravity is a shared power, a constantly intertwined energy effecting everything in the landscape mutually. Push one domino and the hole map cascades to the ground. As such, how can we as players create an agreed up way in which to use gravity in our fights, roleplaying, and character creation?

The final notion is when will we accept an element for what it is, and only what it is. Characters do not need to be the most powerful beings on the island. Characters should have weaknesses, feelings, temperaments, and a mutual love for their own element. As players, when will we create a general agreement for characters to fully live their element, breath in its wildest, farthest points, yet never leave its boundaries?

Thank you.

[Meta-Mind]

Just saw this...

*mutters something about molecular bonds being hundreds of times stronger than gravity at that scale*

A lot more than hundreds. Try millions or billions.

The pressure thing is applicable, but you'll be dead way before you explode. Blood boiling.

Yeah, and I'm fairly sure that the pressure thing wouldn't apply to beings designed to maintenance a giant space robot.

From what I've read so far in this continued discussion, this is what I've gathered. There is a general notion among players who have been around for less time that gravity equals super-strong telekinesis. This thought is branded as incorrect by more veteran players, and I have to slide in with the branding in my on conscience. The other large notion is the concept of gravity is a shared power, a constantly intertwined energy effecting everything in the landscape mutually. Push one domino and the hole map cascades to the ground. As such, how can we as players create an agreed up way in which to use gravity in our fights, roleplaying, and character creation?

It's actually fairly simple to do so as long as we stay within the bounds of logic. Increasing the attraction between two objects, and thus the apparent weight of an object, is not too far-fetched, but attempting to treat Gravity as some form of enhanced Telekinesis is an all-too-common fallacy. Gravity and Telekinesis have their own strengths and weaknesses - if you want to have a character with Telekinesis, either grab a Matatu or make a Toa of Psionics.

The final notion is when will we accept an element for what it is, and only what it is. Characters do not need to be the most powerful beings on the island. Characters should have weaknesses, feelings, temperaments, and a mutual love for their own element. As players, when will we create a general agreement for characters to fully live their element, breathe in its wildest, farthest points, yet never leave its boundaries?

I have one thing and one thing only to say in response:

^ This so much.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Nov 22 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Kaitholas Cage]

Meh. I said 100s because I didn't want to be wrong by saying more. So, it's like 100^5. Oh, and according to NASA (I was wrongish about blood), you might get the bends, or get injured if you hold your breath, but otherwise you'll be fine.

Except for lack of air.

Edited by Toa Kaithas, Nov 22 2012 - 02:19 PM.