66 replies to this topic

[Toa of Nerds]

I always thought that the difference between Earth and Stone was...questionable...at best. I've always wondered: what could a toa of stone do that a toa of earth couldn't do? A toa of stone can control stone, but since stone is made of earth, couldn't a toa of earth control it as well?

Phrased specifically: what could Pohatu do that Onua couldn't?

-don't touch my pocket protector

[fishers64]

Pohatu could destroy, build, and/or manipulate rock. He could create an elemental "bomb" that would turn every bit of stone to dust in the Shadowed One's fortress. I doubt Onua could do that. Pohatu could use his elemental power to free a slab of rock and send it crashing down on you.

Also, earth is a softer element than stone. Earth doesn't hit you as hard, but it makes a better cage. Onua could blast earth at you, but it is unlikely that he could create a rock out of thin air and throw it at you, hard.

[Roni134730]

Unless I'm mistaken, toa of earth can only control dirt, mud, and seismic energies. Toa of stone can create and control solid rock.

[BioGio]

Earth encompasses the soil and similar matter, while raw Solid Protodermis (as well as actual stone, since the two are related enough) falls under the group of "Stone." Since Protodermis doesn't exactly correspond with anything that we know, I'd say that it's quite likely that Earth and soil (while being Solid Protodermis) takes on different properties as "Earth." There's a lot of overlap, but Earth just does not really include anything that one could identify as a rock.

~ BioGio

[Bane of No Isles]

Be brown?

[The First Speaker]

This had me confused a lot too, and until I got Beware the Bohrok I used to think that Pohatu was the Toa of Earth and Onua the Toa of Stone (since Pohatu lived in a sandy desert and Onua in a cavern). I guess the difference lies in the coherency of the soil/stone.

[Taipu1]

If we're totally honest, they're trivial nonsensical differences invented by the Bionicle story team, who were told that one Toa had to be black, and one brown. The existance of the set line is ironically one of the biggest downfalls of the storyline.

On a vague thing I noticed, Pohatu tends to create stone/earth/whatever you prefer to call it, while Onua is more in the line of clearing/destroying it. As an example, where Pohatu might attack his opponent by sending rocks at them, or creating a cage, Onua would create a chasm beneath the opponent. Of course I think both Toa are capable of doing both, so it's kind of a redundant observation relating to the Toas preferential form of attack.

[Indigo Individual]

Pohatu could kick a Koli ball.

Other than that, I don't really see much of a difference.

[Pahrak #0579]

Pohatu once kicked a Kolhii ball so hard that he punched a hole in the fabric of reality.
Pohatu doesn't wear the Kanohi Kakama, he wears a mask that slows him down enough that others can follow his movements.
The reason Bohrok curl up into balls is so that they can play dead around Pohatu.
Makuta originally wanted to take Pohatu's power for his own. When he realized this was impossible he settled for Mata Nui.

Onua can't do any of that.

[GSR]

Get along with Kopaka?

But more seriously, I had the impression that Stone worked with totally solidified matter, while Earth worked with ground that is still porous, scattered, or fragmented.

[Dralcax]

At some point of fragmentation and saturation of Stone, it is considered Earth. But really, it's like Ice and Water. Ice is to Water as Earth is to Stone.

[Angel Bob]

As for the subject, the separation of Earth and Stone has always really bothered me. It should just be Earth. I understand the arguments made for their separation, but there's no need to create separate elements based on soft and hard versions of essentially the same kind of material. Water and Ice also peeve me, but it's more acceptable because they're separated by states of matter. Stone and Earth are both solid land stuff, so I don't see the point of breaking them up.

Personally, I just consider Stone to be a certain "style" of Earth, rather than another element, similarly to the Sandbenders being a subgroup of Earthbenders in Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Edited by Black Six, Dec 23 2011 - 06:35 PM.

[ZHX]

Pohatu controls rocks. Onua controls dirt.

Problem solved.

[Akuna Toa of Sonics]

I don't see there much of a difference in elements, but in terms of the toa themselves, Pohatu has natural strength greater that Onua's. He can kick hard enough to bring down a mountain.

[Takatu]

Be brown?

+1 internet

Anyway, there was a discussion about this a while back, and I PM'd Greg about it, and he summed it up fairly nicely (paraphrasing): "I throw a clump of dirt at you, then I throw a rock at you. Feel the difference?"

[Kopaka - Toa Nuva of Ice]

Dirt and stone aren't made from the exact same things, so I'm thinking that's where the differences come from.

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

Get the ladies.

Also, if Onua could make rocks from earth, he'd only be able to make sedimentary ones. Also, by this logic, Pohatu would be able to control lava, as it would have melted rocks in it. Kopaka could control water, Gali could control ice, Lewa could control the oxygen in water, Tahu could control the oxygen in the air that fire uses for fuel, et cetera.

[muzillu]

This is an excellent question that I've always wondered myself. The separation of fire and ice is also questionable, since fire represents heat; and ice the lack of heat. Tahu had overlapping powers with Kopaka - he could absorb all heat in an area, thus rendering it cold; while Kopaka could simply lower the temperature by using ice, having a similar effect.

I have another question though - how would a Stone and Earth Nova Blast look like? A Water Nova Blast is a tsunami, or am I wrong?

[Norik The Blood Elf]

The fire types can burn stuff but can also create ice. However, an Ice type would find ice creation easier. The GBs wanted tribes of Matoran to have control over certain elements, regardless of overlapping. The Stone here refers to the hard pieces whereas Earth is more porous and sedimentary, like what many have already said.

[Bilbo Baggins]

The toa of earth control mud dirt and things of that such containing the soft earth. toa of stone control rock although strangely enough not sand. Pohatu could create control and absorb rocks. toa of earth could create control and absorb mud and dirt.

[VeoiTheRascal]

Well, if Pohatu got down to it he could probably manipulate and reshape the rock itself, whereas Onua could control it as the myriad of components that are present in earth but be unable to manipulate it specifically.
I do find at times the elemental divide of Earth and Stone frustrating because it narrows the options of earth for direct attacks by making stone itself a different element. As Takatu's quote/paraphrase from Greg explains, creating a rock to lob it at some one hurts a lot more than a clump of earth. A Toa of earth relies on their sensing, manipulation and destruction of elemental control, while Toa of stone have more reason to create their element.

hmmm. An Earth Nova blast could vary from an insane earthquake, landslide or a huge mound of earth barring everything for miles around. Stone, I'm not really sure. One visualization could be pillars of towering rock stretching out across the horizon.
As I understand it, a nova blast can come in many forms so the unleashing of one can vary upon the individual Toa.

[Paleo]

Be brown?

+1 internet

Anyway, there was a discussion about this a while back, and I PM'd Greg about it, and he summed it up fairly nicely (paraphrasing): "I throw a clump of dirt at you, then I throw a rock at you. Feel the difference?"

I believe this answers it.
Toa of Earth control soil, Toa of Stone control rocks.

[bonesiii]

For the record, Paleo, I prefer to let topics like this die of natural causes rather than being closed, because elements are vast subjects, not easily summed up. Greg's quote answers part of it, but not all of it.

The simple answer is particle size.

To answer Muzillu's question, for example, a nova blast of Earth would make Earth radiate from that point, something like a landslide. But a Stone nova blast would either make a single huge stone encase everything in an area, or perhaps make many boulders or the like. Earth's particles are very small, though they can be clumped like a snowball, while Stone's particles are larger.

But yes, the two are very similar.

To answer another point someone raised, Onu-Koro's caves are considered to be mainly in tightly clumped earth, with veins of rock here and there inside it. And Po-Koro is in a big rock wall. If the presence of sand was the determiner, then Ga-Koro could be considered the village of Earth because its gate was on a sandy beach, or Ta-Koro could be the village of Rock because it was a fortress made of rock. So it can't be that simple.

An easy way to tell the difference there is to remember that Onua digs in Earth (not in solid stone), and the Onu- types prefer the dark of caves to open sunlight. Also, Pohatu kicks big rocks, and Po- types have natural strength to lift big rocks.

[muzillu]

So a Fire Nova Blast would take the form of an insanely massive fireball or something?

[Makuta Matata]

Unless I'm mistaken, Toa of earth can only control dirt, mud, and seismic energies. Toa of stone can create and control solid rock.

That's pretty much spot on.

[bonesiii]

So a Fire Nova Blast would take the form of an insanely massive fireball or something?

Right.

[T.B.O.C]

He can kick boulders witout hurting his feet?

Again, like everyone's said before, Earth and Stone are similar, but can be used, have been used, created, and manipulated in many different ways. It's like throwing dirt at someone and throwing a rock at someone, very different feeling, eh?

[Fallen Silence]

Pohatu is probably also much stronger than Onua without his Pakari, as stone is a harder than earth.

[Erebus]

Pohatu is probably also much stronger than Onua without his Pakari, as stone is a harder than earth.

Right, Toa of Stone are generally stronger than Toa of Earth.

[---Kopaka Nuva---]

Pohatu is probably also much stronger than Onua without his Pakari, as stone is a harder than earth.

Right, Toa of Stone are generally stronger than Toa of Earth.

There is another unnoticed point to pohatus strength whenever he'd use his hands instead of his hammer-feet to smash or carve through rocks he didn't use or need digging tools because he had natural fists like tahu mata and lewa mata.

Edited by .-:Kopaka Nuva:-., Dec 27 2011 - 10:34 PM.

[Ids5621]

Pohatu once kicked a Kolhii ball so hard that he punched a hole in the fabric of reality.
Pohatu doesn't wear the Kanohi Kakama, he wears a mask that slows him down enough that others can follow his movements.
The reason Bohrok curl up into balls is so that they can play dead around Pohatu.
Makuta originally wanted to take Pohatu's power for his own. When he realized this was impossible he settled for Mata Nui.

Onua can't do any of that.

what is this pohatu norris??

I did always like pohatu the best and was angered at the notion of him being dissolved and being replaced by onua as a character.

I think a earth nova blast would be an explosion of dirt and mud, whilst a stone one would be a massive radius of stone pillars (kinda like an alkilini field) or simply an explosion of anything conceivable stone in the radius.

Edited by Ids5621, Jan 01 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Nuparu1995]

I always thought of their powers as occupying different things, but they did seem to overlap in a few places.
I always considered Stone to be just "rocks", and Earth to be sand, dirt, silt, seismic energy, "the stuff beneath your feet."

[bonesiii]

I did always like pohatu the best and was angered at the notion of him being dissolved and being replaced by onua as a character.

Pohatu was dissolved and replaced?

I presume you mean metaphorically speaking; that the presence of Onua angered you because he watered down Pohatu's abilities? If you mean that, I would remind you that it's a matter of personal taste, and you shouldn't be angered by it, because other people (like me) like Onua.

I don't have a runaway all-time fave, but Kopaka and Onua are my faves. Onua's wise but shy attitude is something I identify the most with as a person (Kopaka's simply a little cooler lol). And powerwise I like that Pohatu can kick boulders while Onua is the digger. Both are cool abilities and I think they themselves would feel watered down if they were squeezed into one person.

But perhaps you meant something else.

[~garnira returns~]

a stone nova blast sounds like it would be a sandstorm except instead of tiny grains of sand it would be huge boulders .

an earth nova blast would probably be a massive shockwave like that created when a meteor hits a planet, creating a huge crater out of the area.

on topic: the difference is mostly that onua controls rock underground while pohatu controls rock above ground. thats my understanding of it anyway.

[Ids5621]

He can kick boulders witout hurting his feet?

Again, like everyone's said before, Earth and Stone are similar, but can be used, have been used, created, and manipulated in many different ways. It's like throwing dirt at someone and throwing a rock at someone, very different feeling, eh?

No, thats why he has feet additions. Kinda like wearing steel-toe cap boots

I did always like pohatu the best and was angered at the notion of him being dissolved and being replaced by onua as a character.

Pohatu was dissolved and replaced?

I presume you mean metaphorically speaking; that the presence of Onua angered you because he watered down Pohatu's abilities? If you mean that, I would remind you that it's a matter of personal taste, and you shouldn't be angered by it, because other people (like me) like Onua.

I don't have a runaway all-time fave, but Kopaka and Onua are my faves. Onua's wise but shy attitude is something I identify the most with as a person (Kopaka's simply a little cooler lol). And powerwise I like that Pohatu can kick boulders while Onua is the digger. Both are cool abilities and I think they themselves would feel watered down if they were squeezed into one person.

But perhaps you meant something else.

NO! Just the notion of it!

I mean, so many people over have said that pohatu as a character was unneeded due to his elemental similarities to onua! Pohatu has been my favourite character of all time (closly followed by kopaka), and his character was one of the more vibrant ones in the nuva/mata.

Edited by Ids5621, Jan 02 2012 - 05:21 AM.

[bonesiii]

NO! Just the notion of it!

I mean, so many people over have said that pohatu as a character was unneeded due to his elemental similarities to onua! Pohatu has been my favourite character of all time (closly followed by kopaka), and his character was one of the more vibrant ones in the nuva/mata.

Ah, I see. I missed the point of the word "notion" there, sorry.

Yeah, I agree with you. Some of it might be that some people see Pohatu as annoying comic relief, too, besides the elemental thing. I never saw him that way myself; I think that sort of attitude fails to suspend disbelief, which is necessary to properly understand fiction. It's realistic that some people have sharper wits for humor, and even that some may be annoyingly comedic to their fellow characters.

Lol that we both like Kopaka so much too. :B


~garnira returns~, no, Onua does not control rock at all. And elements don't depend on location. A rock below ground is the same as a rock above ground -- same for earth. It's simple -- Onua controls dirt, while Pohatu controls rock.

[g.m.c4]

Pohatu can bicycle kick boulders, that's what!

Actually, I was reading my 2001-2002 graphic novel the other day and noticed several instances where Onua hurled large stone boulders at his enemies while Pohatu just kicked small rocks at them.
Maybe it was just Onua's mask of strength that prompted him to chuck the huge slabs of rock at some Nui Rama and Bohrok, but it does seem like both Pohatu and Onua use each other's elements quite a bit. Could just be technicalities.

[Floridian Citrus]

Unless I'm mistaken, toa of earth can only control dirt, mud, and seismic energies. Toa of stone can create and control solid rock.

This. It actually explains exatly what I want to say. And Tahu and Lewa could kick or throw boulders, as well as anyother being in the universe.

[BioGio]

Actually, I was reading my 2001-2002 graphic novel the other day and noticed several instances where Onua hurled large stone boulders at his enemies while Pohatu just kicked small rocks at them.
Maybe it was just Onua's mask of strength that prompted him to chuck the huge slabs of rock at some Nui Rama and Bohrok, but it does seem like both Pohatu and Onua use each other's elements quite a bit. Could just be technicalities.

Yeah, Onua was only throwing the boulders, assuming I'm understanding you correctly and the comic wasn't going against canon. It's possible that Onua had more ease in moving the boulders due not only to his Pakari but also because he could control (and thus loosen up) the earth around the boulders.

~ BioGio

EDIT: Quoted.

Edited by BioGio, Jan 07 2012 - 05:46 PM.

[Katuko]

Pohatu could also create the rocks while Onua chucked them. They have good synergy that way, given that their elements are similar.

I see it like this: If you placed the two of them ointo a building, Pohatu would be the strongest, because he could reshape stone walls with little effort. In an open field, however, Onua has the advantage, because he can tear the ground up while Pohatu would need to locate rocks of an appropriate size or create them himself.

So yeah, it's rocks vs soil for me. One is big and chunky and the other is loose and grained. Sand is the "meh" point in-between that I don't really care about.

Edited by Katuko, Jan 09 2012 - 04:36 PM.