319 replies to this topic

[Than the Moa]

I don't like the direction of this topic. This is supposed to be a discussion of what the future of BZPower is, not a outlet for your whining and ranting about perceived staff injustices towards members. You are always more than welcome to bring those up to a staff member directly (and if we come off as robotic just remember that a lot of us do have multiple responsibilites and sometimes want to take care of things efficiently as possible) or if you have a broader discussion you can create a new topic where the discussion can be focused.

And one quick note (yeah, I know, right after I say to get the discussion back on track, so sue me )

Lol, no. They barely post because a lot of them really don't care about the site anymore, and only keep their positions because they're considered 'cool' and people don't want them to step down. They basically remain out of habit. Which isn't even speculation, I've spoken to a few who have said this exact thing....

Look, i don't personally know who those staff members may be, but being good friends with a number of staff members, especially elder ones, I can whole heartedly say that the vast majority don't feel that way. Many express that they want to stay staff members, even if they don't have all the time in the world to dedicate to it, so that they can continue to help a site that was so influential to them in their youth. If anyone is still in their positions cause it's considered cool then they're doing it for the wrong reason.

Edited by Than the Moa, Jan 16 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[Toa Onarax]

But... When was the last time you saw a moderator playing an RPG?

Off the top of my head, these guys play fairly often, Spink, xccj, the BZPRPG Staff, before the downtime Sisen, and these are only staff I've interacted with, that I can think of off the top of my head. Also you've gotten remember most members don't play because they feel they are to busy to play a RPG that moves as fast as the BZPRPG does, this goes double for the staff.

As for the future of BZpower, I agree on the larger emphasis on Member Creations, and I believe the best way to do so is to easily create a system where members can report creations. One idea is to create a large, shared, staff account where members can PM and Staff, whenever they have spare time can check that accounts inbox in order to find some suggestions.

[Gatanui]

As for the future of BZpower, I agree on the larger emphasis on Member Creations, and I believe the best way to do so is to easily create a system where members can report creations. One idea is to create a large, shared, staff account where members can PM and Staff, whenever they have spare time can check that accounts inbox in order to find some suggestions.

That´s not necessary, as DV said, we have a system in place to make sure member suggestions PMed to any active staff member gets to the rest. Still, your idea is not bad per se, so remember to PM any suggestions you have to Black Six.

~Gata.

[Toa Zaz]

This discussion has sort of veered into a direction that I was trying to get at earlier, which is the community's image of BZPower's moderation..

On most other forums, the moderators are seen as unobtrusive and almost nonexistent for the most part, coming out on the occasion that a problem needs to be handled. At best, mods are seen as just regular members with an extra responsibility to fulfill every now and then. These kinds of forums tend to be fairly popular.
BZPower, on the other hand, has a moderation team that maintains the image of being obtrusive, overactive, emotionless, unnecessarily strict, and even cruel. This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower (subtly, but it's there), and on other websites. In fact, some people have avoided joining BZPower because of their dislike for the way the mods operate. This has strongly contributed to BZPower's inactivity.
If BZPower is going to resume a sizable level of activity, the way it's moderated has to change.

[Makaru]

BZPower, on the other hand, has a moderation team that maintains the image of being obtrusive, overactive, emotionless, unnecessarily strict, and even cruel.

I firmly disagree with every adjective you've used, especially obtrusive (I actually think that's the first time I've heard that one used). I'm also trying to wrap my head around "cruel".

The conversation only veers to modhate when certain members keep bringing the subject up when asked (asked, by the way, not told) to maybe focus more on what the topic was originally about.

Edited by Makaru, Jan 17 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Toa Onarax]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

[Mesonak]

I do want to point out that we have a system in place for reporting member's creations, and as you can see recently, we have brought that back with a passion. We have at least two more works in the pipeline, even. I would like to see it perhaps a bit more stabilized, perhaps make a "Members Monday" so people know that on Mondays, our news is going to be a Spotlight on the Member's creations.

I'm going to break away from the current discussion going on here to say this an excellent idea and I support it 100%. Extremely glad to see member spotlights frequently.

-Mesonak

[Toa Zaz]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

[Toa Onarax]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

Why do you seem to think that all optimism is forced optimism. Perhaps you're just pessimistic. Also regardless of what it may be many satirical works have an authority figure chasing after trouble makers, and what makes you think that means they're scared of them, poking fun at someones job, is in my mind the opposite of that.

Back on topic one thing I'd like to bring up is this new found interest in asking for contest ideas. I for one think it's a great idea, and one that should be utilized more often.

Edited by Toa Onarax, Jan 17 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Makaru]

I do want to point out that we have a system in place for reporting member's creations, and as you can see recently, we have brought that back with a passion. We have at least two more works in the pipeline, even. I would like to see it perhaps a bit more stabilized, perhaps make a "Members Monday" so people know that on Mondays, our news is going to be a Spotlight on the Member's creations.

I'm going to break away from the current discussion going on here to say this an excellent idea and I support it 100%. Extremely glad to see member spotlights frequently.

-Mesonak

Deevs, you should totally propose that to Sixboss.

I'm sad that I missed that part.

Edited by Makaru, Jan 17 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[DeeVee]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

Look. You clearly want to force this perspective on everyone, and it's increasingly and exceedingly clear that even the other non-staff members who have posted in this topic do not agree with you. Some of them think we should be more active in the forums, that's a criticism of our activity, not our moderation style. But that's about all you've gotten anyone else to agree with.

Also, most forums have a warning system. Most of the other major LEGO boards do as well. Not all of them are as public as ours. But they are there.

[fishers64]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

Look. You clearly want to force this perspective on everyone, and it's increasingly and exceedingly clear that even the other non-staff members who have posted in this topic do not agree with you. Some of them think we should be more active in the forums, that's a criticism of our activity, not our moderation style. But that's about all you've gotten anyone else to agree with.

Also, most forums have a warning system. Most of the other major LEGO boards do as well. Not all of them are as public as ours. But they are there.

Have you ever listened to the BZPowercast? C'mon, even I agree that that is a little extreme. On one hand, I agree with you, but on some other hands I do not. I think the possibility of being protozapped, suspended, or banned makes people nervous to an extent. They want to stay here and contribute to the community and stay on here, so they try to avoid things that might spell trouble. That's a good thing. That means that trouble is stopped before it even starts. That means that there are less restrictive rules on us, because we don't trip over the staff and they don't trip over us. That's called agreement.

Now, if this goes to the point that it is stifling discussion, that's a bad thing. That means that members aren't posting certain topics for fear of staff member retribution. I haven't seen that here. It hasn't gone that far yet. It's only nervous people like me who ask questions for fear of tripping over the staff's toes, and that's not on EVERY topic. I posted a topic to ask a question in S&T recently, and what the staff would think of it did not even enter my mind. I only get nervous if it is something a bit out of the ordinary or something I don't know what they think of about it in general. I haven't heard posts like "I would post topic Z, but if I did that the staff would kick me off" anywhere.

So even if the staff do inspire fear, it is okay as long as they don't inhibit intelligent discussion. Emphasis on the word intelligent. However, they should try to keep it to a minimum because we want people to join here and actually make some posts, and it helps if the members can make suggestions for improvement without being afraid of what will happen to them if they do. Yes, we need to improve members' image of the staff as real people who respond to input. This topic is doing that. In fact, I hearby recommend, if this has not been featured already, that this topic should be featured on the front page. But I don't think we need draconian measures to improve the BZP moderation style. It's working. It has worked for ten years. I haven't seen any solid evidence to the contrary.

[QuestionMark]

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto.

I actually see where you're coming from, though I disagree with the conclusions you have drawn from the evidence. It's in the way you tend to see people marking their posts with to make sure others know they're being "light", or deflect any of their points' brute potential for starting an argument with a , or state (sometimes repeatedly) that it's "just their opinion" or "no offense intended" or "I like this story, don't get me wrong, but..." There is a distinct feeling that some of the members are going to extra lengths to make sure they are not being confrontational, even if there is already little confrontational in what they say. That's what you mean by "forced optimism", right?

This is not because they are afraid. Part of it is environmental; BZPower encourages and fosters the kind of attitude in agreeable members that makes them want to avoid causing a stir. I have seen that kind of thing happening in my self too. That is not the same thing as fear. The other part is that these specific members are just nice people. I'm trying not to exaggerate by insinuating that a large percentage of the members act in this specific way, but one thing BZPower has in its favor is that all of its precautions are conducive to this kind of attitude. It's a system that orients itself around a few select idealizations of behavior. I think this is what you have noticed and misinterpreted as ingenuine, when it is genuine. In fact, bonesiii, one of the Forum Leaders, believes very strongly in the use of emoticons to properly convey the emotional quality of a post and avoid misunderstandings and thus potential arguments. Besides being some of the longest posts on the board, his are also some of the most "smiley". So that kind of puts a hole in your theory.

Mind you, I don't think it's right for a person to do this if they're just covering up their real feelings, but there is an element of compromise to all human interaction, because that's the only way we can consistently empathize with and learn from each other. That is why there is some value to other people trying to see your viewpoint, even if it is misguided, and why finetuning it on your part could help you provide something unique and useful. I personally am not as worried about appearing non-confrontational as I used to, basically because I see a certain value to open disagreement that I did not use to see; but I still maintain the values of civility that BZPower enforces and try to be as well-meaning as I can be (that's sort of what my sig is about). I'm also somewhat of a nervous person at times, about certain things, which is why I sympathize with fishers' latest post and think his points should be carefully weighed and beared in mind.

I used to think that the Moderators here were some of the things that other members (such as you, Zaz) have mentioned. I have also observed this biased perspective in members of another forum. But frankly I was younger and more naive, and I was used to a different standard. In fact, the problem with that other forum was precisely that the Moderators were too lax, something that always aggravated me and which is thankfully not present here. I have long ago changed my opinion and wish only well of the Moderators, and hope they will not be offended by my past opinion of them. (Even though they were not aware of it at the time, haha.) They do their job well and graciously.

You are not being pessimistic as someone else suggested, but rather cynical, which isn't in itself a problem (in fact, it is something of a virtue in my mind) except that you're wrong. It is very important that you interpret your data more carefully in the future.

I am sorry if I have contributed to a further shift away from the original topic, but I hope that some of the things I have alluded to about BZPower's operations in this post will prove valuable to future debate; namely, that, in the process of alleviating certain restrictions (as others have suggested, and as may turn out to be needed) with regards to forum rules and management of discussion, we keep in mind the good things (that I have enumerated) that BZPower's current system has to its advantage over others -- things that some of us may take for granted.

~QMark

[Lord Kini Hawkeye]

I'm too lazy, as of now, to make a long post in responce to you Zaz, but truely, i would love to see evidence that this so called "Forced Optimism" Is due to fear of the staff.

For most people (Most, not all) They're more concerned with making sure they don't mess up in front of the community, which can be a big mistake. You don't want anyone to think you're a bad person, least of all the staff, but that doesn't mean the staff are the first people you make considerations for. Additionally, People trying to be light and make sure the meaning of their post is clear Isn't for the staff. It's to make sure no one misunderstands. For example, i could read this post and the voice i hear could be entirely higher-than-thou. That's not the tone i'm trying to convey, more of a "i disagree with you and here's why"

This stuff you keep spouting about BZP fearing its staff is absolute **** though. Fear does not equate into respect. BZPers respect the staff - and it's been so many years since i heard somone say that they were afraid of the staff that this makes me laugh. Besides Zaz, i fail to see why all the "The staff are fear and people aren't able to do anything because of this fear and yadda-yadda-yadda" Is even neccessary when you've been argued against so many times.

You aren't bringing up any new points to support your argument, just the same old "Forced optimism" thing... again.

Besides, i dare you to go and have a talk. A friendly, innocent talk, with any one of the BZPower staff. It's hard to fear someone when you've talked to them and seen them, not the anonymous face who closes your topics.

As a closing regard, i fail to see how "Members aren't going to just say it out loud" is an argument. You're saying it out loud - what makes you different from anyone else? Are ye fearless, perhaps? All I'm trying to point out here Zaz, is that just because you know a few people who feel a certain way, doesn't mean it represents the community at large. And since it's been so long since i've heard of someone being afraid of the staff, i have to wonder if these aren't your own feelings, Zaz. Doesn't matter to me either way but...

Well, when you've watched some of the Member-Staff interactions than, well. Some people joke with staff they know, others just joke around with staff to annoy them. Fear, again, doesn't equate, nor does it grip this site to the same degree as you seem intent on saying.

(Wow. Looks like i made a long post after all.)

[Gatanui]

This discussion has sort of veered into a direction that I was trying to get at earlier, which is the community's image of BZPower's moderation..

On most other forums, the moderators are seen as unobtrusive and almost nonexistent for the most part, coming out on the occasion that a problem needs to be handled. At best, mods are seen as just regular members with an extra responsibility to fulfill every now and then. These kinds of forums tend to be fairly popular.
BZPower, on the other hand, has a moderation team that maintains the image of being obtrusive, overactive, emotionless, unnecessarily strict, and even cruel. This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower (subtly, but it's there), and on other websites. In fact, some people have avoided joining BZPower because of their dislike for the way the mods operate. This has strongly contributed to BZPower's inactivity.
If BZPower is going to resume a sizable level of activity, the way it's moderated has to change.

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

Here is a deal, Zaz. Everyone who agrees that we are obtrusive, overactive, emotionless, unnecessarily strict, and even cruel, send me an (anonymous) email to Gatanui@BZPower.com. We will see how many members do so.

If you think this isn´t an effective way of letting people know, spread the word. I am totally serious.

~Gata.

Edited by Gatanui, Jan 18 2012 - 10:20 AM.

[Deep-Freeze]

I'm straying a tad from the discussion right now, but I would like to say that whoever came up with the current advertising policy should consider starting a stand-up comedy career. Reporting violations is all fine and dandy, but offering post count inflation? That is really and truly ridiculous. Post count boosting is normally frowned upon, and then it's offered as a reward at the same time. I'm not saying you can't reward people, but when you make post count important in any way, the site loses some people to a giant site-wide game of whack-a-mole or a "who can make the most gibberish posts in the art/MOC forums in the least amount of time" contest.

And as for the rules in general, well, the site doesn't benefit a whole lot from being isolated from the rest of the internet. Especially with how the internet has evolved since these rules were put in place, it's pretty counterproductive to handicap a majority of the site's userbase (if you have to do backflips through flaming hoops to send a video link to someone, the rules are probably too much) because a minority of users have an issue that could be easily resolved with a few options on sign-up/sign-in/in the control panel. I apply this specifically to the ludicrous link restrictions, but there are plenty of other cases where it's relevant.

send me an (anonymous) email

You would probably be swimming in emails by the end of the day if most people who disliked the rules hadn't written them off as a hilarious, unspoken joke.

[Sumiki]

I'm straying a tad from the discussion right now, but I would like to say that whoever came up with the current advertising policy should consider starting a stand-up comedy career. Reporting violations is all fine and dandy, but offering post count inflation? That is really and truly ridiculous. Post count boosting is normally frowned upon, and then it's offered as a reward at the same time. I'm not saying you can't reward people, but when you make post count important in any way, the site loses some people to a giant site-wide game of whack-a-mole or a "who can make the most gibberish posts in the art/MOC forums in the least amount of time" contest.

One has to remember that the policy was put in place when BZPower was young. The Direct Linking policy was still in place - thankfully, that vestige of old connections and small bandwidths was removed.

Plus, there's a difference between spamming and getting posts as a reward. A big difference, actually.

[Aanchir: Rachira of Time]

I'm straying a tad from the discussion right now, but I would like to say that whoever came up with the current advertising policy should consider starting a stand-up comedy career. Reporting violations is all fine and dandy, but offering post count inflation? That is really and truly ridiculous. Post count boosting is normally frowned upon, and then it's offered as a reward at the same time. I'm not saying you can't reward people, but when you make post count important in any way, the site loses some people to a giant site-wide game of whack-a-mole or a "who can make the most gibberish posts in the art/MOC forums in the least amount of time" contest.

One has to remember that the policy was put in place when BZPower was young. The Direct Linking policy was still in place - thankfully, that vestige of old connections and small bandwidths was removed.

Plus, there's a difference between spamming and getting posts as a reward. A big difference, actually.

I can get Deep-Freeze's point, though. Treating post count inflation as a reward implies a certain value on quantity, not quality. Granted, I can understand how post count might already be thought of as a measure of success to some people newer to the nature of internet discussions. But with that said, it would certainly be nice if someone could think of a more inherently meaningful reward for reporting content that's against the rules, so that the policy doesn't reinforce the idea that higher post counts indicate more constructive members of the community.

[Makaru]

If it's any consolation, we haven't done that in like forever.

[Sumiki]

If it's any consolation, we haven't done that in like forever.

Then why not edit the rules, to remove rules of eras long gone? Archaic rules or rewards such as this one should logically be taken down from the rules and regulations to prevent confusion such as Deep-Freeze had - especially if there's no incentive to reinstate the rule as it's currently written. Why not make it like reporting anything else - do it enough and proto is given?

[Toa Zaz]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

Look. You clearly want to force this perspective on everyone, and it's increasingly and exceedingly clear that even the other non-staff members who have posted in this topic do not agree with you. Some of them think we should be more active in the forums, that's a criticism of our activity, not our moderation style. But that's about all you've gotten anyone else to agree with.

Also, most forums have a warning system. Most of the other major LEGO boards do as well. Not all of them are as public as ours. But they are there.

Have you ever listened to the BZPowercast? C'mon, even I agree that that is a little extreme. On one hand, I agree with you, but on some other hands I do not. I think the possibility of being protozapped, suspended, or banned makes people nervous to an extent. They want to stay here and contribute to the community and stay on here, so they try to avoid things that might spell trouble. That's a good thing. That means that trouble is stopped before it even starts. That means that there are less restrictive rules on us, because we don't trip over the staff and they don't trip over us. That's called agreement.

Now, if this goes to the point that it is stifling discussion, that's a bad thing. That means that members aren't posting certain topics for fear of staff member retribution. I haven't seen that here. It hasn't gone that far yet. It's only nervous people like me who ask questions for fear of tripping over the staff's toes, and that's not on EVERY topic. I posted a topic to ask a question in S&T recently, and what the staff would think of it did not even enter my mind. I only get nervous if it is something a bit out of the ordinary or something I don't know what they think of about it in general. I haven't heard posts like "I would post topic Z, but if I did that the staff would kick me off" anywhere.

So even if the staff do inspire fear, it is okay as long as they don't inhibit intelligent discussion. Emphasis on the word intelligent. However, they should try to keep it to a minimum because we want people to join here and actually make some posts, and it helps if the members can make suggestions for improvement without being afraid of what will happen to them if they do. Yes, we need to improve members' image of the staff as real people who respond to input. This topic is doing that. In fact, I hearby recommend, if this has not been featured already, that this topic should be featured on the front page. But I don't think we need draconian measures to improve the BZP moderation style. It's working. It has worked for ten years. I haven't seen any solid evidence to the contrary.

Of course it's inhibiting discussion. If, and I'm using an example someone used in a previous post, there was a one-day downtime on a different forum site, the members would freak out about it. Am I saying they should? No, but due to lighter moderation on that forum, they feel more comfortable stating their (overly pessimistic) opinion. Now around here, if there's a six-month downtime, members sit on their hands and say "I'm so glad BZPower's back," etc. At this point I would expect a little frustration, but no. Because if members engage in any perceived "flaming," they'll get their proto zapped. This would never happen on a different forum. While the increased moderation does restrain excessive whining (a good aspect of BZPower moderation), it totally causes an optimistic slant to the point that neutrality is avoided. Also, if you want proof of why BZPower moderation isn't working, I suggest you take a glance at the number of active members currently. Something's got to change.

Lord Kini Hawkeye, if I myself was afraid of the staff, would I really be posting this sort of thing? I'm referring to members like the user earlier in this topic who was afraid of emailing the staff and asking them to get the archives up because he was worried that the staff would kick him off the site if he seemed to negative. This stuff doesn't happen on other forums, just here.

[Makaru]

So, to recap, since our members came back to BZP enthusiastic to discuss all the things they missed during the downtime instead of gripe about how long it took, it's a clear sign that we, the staff, are an upper echelon of the oligarchical right.

People are happy because they are lying. They are lying because they fear us.

That's insulting. Not to the staff, but to the credibility BZP members you are trying to enlighten as a whole.

Edited by Makaru, Jan 19 2012 - 05:27 PM.

[-Windrider-]

1.
2.
3.
4. (a few gripes about the length of the downtime)
5.
6. (definitely not everyone in here enjoys the new forums)
7.

Feel free to go through the back pages of GD starting here. There is discontent. And, the topics weren't closed because of perceived "flaming"; but rather, because they were dupes.

In addition, how has this topic and this one as well survived for so long without having been locked due to "general negativity"; furthermore, why has everyone not lost Proto? I can think of only one instance of a zap, and it was because of legitimate trolling and hateful comments (not directed at BZPower, but at another member, mind you).

If your hypothesis is that excessive moderation is the cause of today's diminished activity, please at least acknowledge the confounding variables. I will, however, agree that were the restrictive advertising guidelines loosened, BZP might see a small increase in new members.

I must ask how long you have lurked around BZP before you joined, Toa Zaz. If you have memories of BZPower's earlier days, then I wonder - one could say the staff today is much more laid-back than it used to be. But to imply that we today tend the paragon of a draconian establishment? No, that we ourselves are the cause, and not just the keepers? That I am oppressive and cruel?

Edited by -Windrider-, Jan 19 2012 - 07:41 PM.

[Makaru]

That I am oppressive and cruel?

SIR NO SIR

Sorry force of habit

Edited by Makaru, Jan 19 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[fishers64]

This image of fear is maintained throughout BZPower

I fail to see where you keep coming up with this idea of fear. From my time on here, BZP is one of the few forums, where the staff don't seem like robots and one of the forums where I don't fear the staff.

Members obviously aren't going to say it out loud. I get it from the forced optimism members put on so the staff won't consider their posts flaming and reduce their proto. I also get it from the number of comedies involving the staff going after "troublemakers" after they do things like double-post. Really, the whole proto energy system itself lends itself to it. The BZPower community is afraid of its staff.

Look. You clearly want to force this perspective on everyone, and it's increasingly and exceedingly clear that even the other non-staff members who have posted in this topic do not agree with you. Some of them think we should be more active in the forums, that's a criticism of our activity, not our moderation style. But that's about all you've gotten anyone else to agree with.

Also, most forums have a warning system. Most of the other major LEGO boards do as well. Not all of them are as public as ours. But they are there.

Have you ever listened to the BZPowercast? C'mon, even I agree that that is a little extreme. On one hand, I agree with you, but on some other hands I do not. I think the possibility of being protozapped, suspended, or banned makes people nervous to an extent. They want to stay here and contribute to the community and stay on here, so they try to avoid things that might spell trouble. That's a good thing. That means that trouble is stopped before it even starts. That means that there are less restrictive rules on us, because we don't trip over the staff and they don't trip over us. That's called agreement.

Now, if this goes to the point that it is stifling discussion, that's a bad thing. That means that members aren't posting certain topics for fear of staff member retribution. I haven't seen that here. It hasn't gone that far yet. It's only nervous people like me who ask questions for fear of tripping over the staff's toes, and that's not on EVERY topic. I posted a topic to ask a question in S&T recently, and what the staff would think of it did not even enter my mind. I only get nervous if it is something a bit out of the ordinary or something I don't know what they think of about it in general. I haven't heard posts like "I would post topic Z, but if I did that the staff would kick me off" anywhere.

So even if the staff do inspire fear, it is okay as long as they don't inhibit intelligent discussion. Emphasis on the word intelligent. However, they should try to keep it to a minimum because we want people to join here and actually make some posts, and it helps if the members can make suggestions for improvement without being afraid of what will happen to them if they do. Yes, we need to improve members' image of the staff as real people who respond to input. This topic is doing that. In fact, I hearby recommend, if this has not been featured already, that this topic should be featured on the front page. But I don't think we need draconian measures to improve the BZP moderation style. It's working. It has worked for ten years. I haven't seen any solid evidence to the contrary.

Of course it's inhibiting discussion. If, and I'm using an example someone used in a previous post, there was a one-day downtime on a different forum site, the members would freak out about it. Am I saying they should? No, but due to lighter moderation on that forum, they feel more comfortable stating their (overly pessimistic) opinion. Now around here, if there's a six-month downtime, members sit on their hands and say "I'm so glad BZPower's back," etc. At this point I would expect a little frustration, but no. Because if members engage in any perceived "flaming," they'll get their proto zapped. This would never happen on a different forum. While the increased moderation does restrain excessive whining (a good aspect of BZPower moderation), it totally causes an optimistic slant to the point that neutrality is avoided. Also, if you want proof of why BZPower moderation isn't working, I suggest you take a glance at the number of active members currently. Something's got to change.

Lord Kini Hawkeye, if I myself was afraid of the staff, would I really be posting this sort of thing? I'm referring to members like the user earlier in this topic who was afraid of emailing the staff and asking them to get the archives up because he was worried that the staff would kick him off the site if he seemed to negative. This stuff doesn't happen on other forums, just here.

This makes me laugh so hard. If you look back at those examples you are citing, you will find that I posted them. That means that you are using my own examples against me.

What I meant in posting those examples was trying to explain why people thought the way you do. I wasn't saying that that was an accurate assessment of the way the staff is. By reading this topic, my opinion has changed, and I have become less nervous as a result of it. Now, if such a thing happened again, I would gladly send that email you cited.

What I meant in posting those examples was trying to explain why the misconception existed that the moderators are tyrannical overlords. I did not mean that it was not a misconception.

The staff should be open to actions to reduce and/or eliminate that misconception. It is hurting us to have that view in place by members and by other websites. The problem is not in the actual moderation itself; it is how that moderation is misconstrued and mispercieved as tyranny.

Now, granted, there are some old and outdated rules on the books that need to be changed. Changing those would improve the moderation here and improve the moderators' image. That's a win-win, and I strongly recommend that.

[Lord Kini Hawkeye]

Excuse me, But my patience, sadly, is begining to be tested.

If there's a six month downtime, members do not, just sit on their hands, as you've restated so many times. People were angry the downtime took so long, I was annoyed with the look of the site, But just because we're happy the place is back does not mean we sat on our hands and said nothing in critisism. There was frustration everywhere. Ask any member. The difference is that the member base has enough respect and knowledge for what the admins had to go through during the downtime to get the site back up, that we didn't outright attack them. Just because we're respectful doesn't mean it's out of fear of the staff. Your boss or principle might not scare you, but you respect him all the less, no?

Members engage in percieved flaming all the time. True story. The difference is that it's not instantaneous proto zap, as you seem to think. But alas, Flaming is against the rules. It's a good rule too, and so we're reduced to this. I can garuantee that some people might find, say, the last few posts i've made here, and even this one, borderline flame. But they're not, at least, that isn't the intent. If i get warned i'll respectfully point that out.

The number of BZPower members has decreased since Bionicle Ended. Some people felt that the end of the toy line signified the time to move on with life. Others simply got bored of BZPower. I left, and it had nothing to do with the staff. I suggest that you stop overgeneralizing everything, Por favor Senor, and realize that the fact that BZP's active membership has been declining for some time now. The Downtime just jump started it. To be perfectly honest, i've heard gripes about the site, people, lego, bionicle itself being the reason for BZP's decline. But i've never met someone who so thoroughly believes that the staff and moderation policies are the one reason the site's dying.

As for the mentioned Member, to each his own. One person does not represent the whole.


Off the subject of your post, I'd like to point something out to you Zaz. You describe yourself as "hating humanity," No? That's fine. What's not fine is the fact that you seem to have a hard time remembering that not everyone shares that viewpoint. Just because you know a few former BZPers who say one thing, doesn't mean everyone thinks that. Just because you might not like the staff, and it seems to you that everyone on BZP just sits on their hands when the staff could be involved, doesn't mean it's what's happening.

To further my point, i know people who don't want to risk getting in trouble with the BZP staff, however unfounded their fears may be. I also know people who have gone out of their way to joke with, troll, or generally annoy staff members, without getting zapped/in too much trouble. BZPowers moderation isn't as strict as you make it out to be. If it was, you would've been Proto-Zapped many a time already. You havn't been Zapped before, I have, i'm pretty sure that in a discussion on moderation policies, i have a biiiiit more experience than you.

Edited by Lord Kini Hawkeye, Jan 19 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[Aanchir: Rachira of Time]

Yeah, something else to point out about the perceived "lack of complaining after the downtime"-- a lot of the members who got especially fed up with the length of time the site was down might not have come back.

As for why I didn't complain, I left BZPower before the downtime and so felt no sense of entitlement about the site not being there for me. But the idea that people were too afraid of the staff to complain is preposterous. I saw enough complaining at least to account for the little there was worth complaining about. But I imagine most returning members (in other words, most members who had any reason to care about the downtime) were smart enough to understand that whining or sulking about an inconvenience after it's passed is just a waste of their own time and energy.

Now, there were PLENTY of complaints about BZPower's new format, and about the things that the downtime had seriously interfered with (like contests and stuff that it had interrupted), and about things that after the downtime still failed to work, like the Member Spotlight and (for a while) the "Forums" link on the mainpage. There were complaints about the minimal activity in certain forums, and about the attitudes of returning members toward certain issues, and about policies that continued to confuse people and cause difficulties. Those were meaningful things to complain about, because they were continuing problems. And members were not afraid at all to make those complaints.

Perhaps the reason you saw few complaints about the downtime is because members were spending their time on more important matters.

[fishers64]

Yeah, something else to point out about the perceived "lack of complaining after the downtime"-- a lot of the members who got especially fed up with the length of time the site was down might not have come back.

As for why I didn't complain, I left BZPower before the downtime and so felt no sense of entitlement about the site not being there for me. But the idea that people were too afraid of the staff to complain is preposterous. I saw enough complaining at least to account for the little there was worth complaining about. But I imagine most returning members (in other words, most members who had any reason to care about the downtime) were smart enough to understand that whining or sulking about an inconvenience after it's passed is just a waste of their own time and energy.

Now, there were PLENTY of complaints about BZPower's new format, and about the things that the downtime had seriously interfered with (like contests and stuff that it had interrupted), and about things that after the downtime still failed to work, like the Member Spotlight and (for a while) the "Forums" link on the mainpage. There were complaints about the minimal activity in certain forums, and about the attitudes of returning members toward certain issues, and about policies that continued to confuse people and cause difficulties. Those were meaningful things to complain about, because they were continuing problems. And members were not afraid at all to make those complaints.

Perhaps the reason you saw few complaints about the downtime is because members were spending their time on more important matters.

Like fixing library messes and posting stuff that had been on our minds, unposted, for months?

We are a bunch of precocious people. In that case, if our current moderation style is attracting intelligent people who know what to complain about, then more power to it! Actually, I think it is keeping unintelligent people out, which may be a good or bad thing...lack of appeal to the masses? ..

Can't say I don't like our current appeal, however.

[Shadow Kurahk]

To people who think this is getting off topic: how can you know where you're going when you don't know where you've been?

-SK

[Lyichir]

I don't recall if I brought this up before, but there's a specific reason I'd like BZP to expand more to cover other LEGO themes.

Most LEGO fansites don't have anything like our "BIONICLE Storyline & Theories" forum. Many lack a forum dedicated to stories or non-MOC art. A lot of AFOLs don't care about these things, and just want to play with bricks.

But LEGO has had quite a few story-based themes that inspire me. I want to discuss Ninjago characters without it being swallowed by a single "Ninjago story" topic. My brother did some decent Exo-Force art once, but it wouldn't merit its own topic on other LEGO sites nor would it be noticed in a catch-all fanart topic. BZP has the infrastructure in place to provide places like these for fans of other themes, yet the Storyline & Theories forum is still BIONICLE-exclusive, and the fanart section is still largely BIONICLE-centric. I think diversifying would help to welcome new members who might not remember BIONICLE, but still appreciate and are inspired by the stories LEGO puts out.

[Eeko]

I don't recall if I brought this up before, but there's a specific reason I'd like BZP to expand more to cover other LEGO themes.

Most LEGO fansites don't have anything like our "BIONICLE Storyline & Theories" forum. Many lack a forum dedicated to stories or non-MOC art. A lot of AFOLs don't care about these things, and just want to play with bricks.

But LEGO has had quite a few story-based themes that inspire me. I want to discuss Ninjago characters without it being swallowed by a single "Ninjago story" topic. My brother did some decent Exo-Force art once, but it wouldn't merit its own topic on other LEGO sites nor would it be noticed in a catch-all fanart topic. BZP has the infrastructure in place to provide places like these for fans of other themes, yet the Storyline & Theories forum is still BIONICLE-exclusive, and the fanart section is still largely BIONICLE-centric. I think diversifying would help to welcome new members who might not remember BIONICLE, but still appreciate and are inspired by the stories LEGO puts out.

Actually, the General Art forum is the place for all LEGO art. Not just Bionicle.

[fishers64]

I don't recall if I brought this up before, but there's a specific reason I'd like BZP to expand more to cover other LEGO themes.

Most LEGO fansites don't have anything like our "BIONICLE Storyline & Theories" forum. Many lack a forum dedicated to stories or non-MOC art. A lot of AFOLs don't care about these things, and just want to play with bricks.

But LEGO has had quite a few story-based themes that inspire me. I want to discuss Ninjago characters without it being swallowed by a single "Ninjago story" topic. My brother did some decent Exo-Force art once, but it wouldn't merit its own topic on other LEGO sites nor would it be noticed in a catch-all fanart topic. BZP has the infrastructure in place to provide places like these for fans of other themes, yet the Storyline & Theories forum is still BIONICLE-exclusive, and the fanart section is still largely BIONICLE-centric. I think diversifying would help to welcome new members who might not remember BIONICLE, but still appreciate and are inspired by the stories LEGO puts out.

Actually, the General Art forum is the place for all LEGO art. Not just Bionicle.

Yes, but that fact needs better broadcasting. Not saying that Bionicle art is bad, but we do have more of it than anything else. I think the new "Lego-centered" art contest might help. Also, if you are a person who wants to do general Lego art, just do it. The best way to approach that, (if it even is a problem) is likely a less-talk, more-action approach. If you want us to have general Lego art, go build us some! Pioneers are usually rewarded.

And as for story discussion of other Lego themes and whatnot, it isn't happening as much for several reasons. One is that other Lego themes do not generally have as detailed a story as Bionicle. Two, most of our members still like Bionicle and are kind of slow to move on to other story discussion. We kind of need a pioneer there too; right now most other-theme story stuff goes in the Lego General Discussion forum, and there are not a lot of story topics there, not because they are outlawed, but because members won't make them. When there is a bunch of story topics on a particular forum or other, the moderators will make a story forum for that. But since there isn't a lot of story topics on other Lego Themes (theories and whatnot), there isn't a need for one, and so it hasn't been made.

So mostly the limits are all in unofficial member tradition based on what the rules once were, and are not set in stone. People do not like change, and so we are set in our ways until we are shaken up. It might need to be done.
____________________________________________________________________________________

Slightly related side note: I've been thinking about this, and I think resurrecting the Hot Topics Box could improve our image as a Bionicle-focused-but-still-allowing-for-other-Lego-stuff-discussion site. I mean, wouldn't some of the topics of Lego discussion end up in the HT box, and less of them not, considering that there is more to discuss since there is new material coming out?

It's just one of those things. BZPower is a community of members, and we all have preferences. We all (98%) like Bionicle and if we are this way, it is just the way we are. I don't think BZP should try to change its members to appeal to the masses. But bringing back the HT box would give guests an idea of who we are, and if we are a bunch of Bionicle fans who happen to like other stuff too, and that appeals to people, great. Then bringing back that HT box will help boost that appeal. If that doesn't appeal, then the staff should not beg us or force us to appeal, you know what I mean? I'm not saying that the staff are doing that now, but they should avoid that in the future.

[Gatanui]

So it turns out I have got a few answers to my call earlier and I thought I should post at least excerpts of them:

I would agree with what Toa Zaz said to a point, the majority of the staff(not you, I think you are down to earth) tend to abuse their powers to an extent. It isn't as apparent now as it was several years ago.

To put a blanket statement on the staff of BZPower is unfair. The
majority of the staff, when you get down to it, are perfectly fine.
bonesiii, SPIRIT, you, Pohuaki, the library staff in general... You
are all approachable and interact not with a view of being in some
glass tower. However, people's views of a group are often defined by
the radicals (ie, a large portion of America seem to think all Muslims
are terrorists, even though that is nowhere near true). Thus the group
as a whole is given a bad name.

[...]

I spend my time on BNG's forum and I can say that the feeling towards
the staff of our members in general are not positive. Many of us feel
that That is not to put words in someone else's mouth, nor to suggest
that it is the view of the project as a whole. It is my opinion and my
observations through various discussions.

However, I do tell myself frequently that not ALL the staff are bad.
Heck, probably not even the majority. There are some really nice staff
members. But if BZPower is to make a good name for itself, it needs to
weed out their more inflammatory members.

As a leading staff member of BNG, I have made it an unspoken rule for
my fellow staff members that we must aim to be cheerful in our
interactions with members. I have said on occasion that the minute we
act like we are better than our workers, is the moment when it would
be hypocritical to criticize BZPower.

Now before I finish, I would like to bring up a rule that is
ridiculous if you think about - Not being able to mention [...]. I
completely understand not linking to [...] - comments there get out
of hand in a heartbeat, but not MENTIONING it? It's laughable. I feel
that it could be said that anyone who has "discovered" the internet
has probably heard of [...]. I would really like to find one member
who has not heard of the site.

And I guess while I'm on the subject - not mentioning sites with
forums. I have largely seen this as being the reason behind a lack of
other Bionicle fansite aside from the BZP approved fan sites. To put
things in perspective, I haven't fo a Bionicle forum site aside from
BZPower that has more than 300 or so members. From my point of view,
at least, it is very much like [...] - censoring what can be done so
that they have all of the power. [...] I understand the reasoning behind it but it
is a very large overreaction for a small problem.

Eh, why not? The project discussion rule. Keeps projects from being
born. From what I've seen, Bionicle: Next Generation was the first of
its kind to really take off. It was started as a project planning
topic that grew to nearly 800 posts in 3 days. If it had been caught
by the staff in the first few hours, it would have been closed and BNG
probably wouldn't have started. More projects tried to form but were
largely shot down by staff with the "project planning topics = bad"
mentality. I feel that rule has been harmful in the post-Bionicle era.

BNG started our own forums because BZPower was too oppressive in its
rules. Its hard to work on a project on BZPower. The staff, if
anything, discourage it in general.

To close, the image of the staff for the long term members of BZPower
tend to be postive. I'd like to say mine is generally positive. But
BZPower is notorious in other places for being a scary place. My early
experience with the BZPower staff that I related to you above would
have suggested that BZPower is anything but a kid-friendly site.

I just thought I'd put in my two cents as you asked - I do not think all of the staff are "evil" - on the contrary I'm friends with a few and talk to others occasionally. But I do agree that there are many who act pompous and condescending toward the rest of us, like they're somehow Gods because they run a lego forum. And I've seen a few cases of staff members being quite nasty. The members may have deserved it, may not have, but staff should be above that kind of reaction either way.

The only other thing I have to say is that I agree with being too strict - some rules are downright pointless, as well as outdated, and some should be bent to favour certain circumstances. For instance, I saw a few members participating in inside jokes in the comic forum, and a staff member deleted the posts as spam. They may have looked like spam, but even after the situation was explained there was no letup.

I'm done. Once more, I don't dislike any of the staff (save maybe one or two) and I don't think they do a bad job overall - but there are areas to be improved.

~Gata.

Edited by Gatanui, Jan 22 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[fishers64]

Maybe there should be a "group projects" forum?

[Sumiki]

Maybe there should be a "group projects" forum?

I don't see a reason for a special forum dedicated to this. It'd be the least active forum - though it might serve the purpose of inspiring members to coordinate and execute group projects.

On the old forums, I headed up a project called BIONICLE: Year One. A project to create a working Unity 3D game based on the first year of BIONICLE had some moderate successes, though its structure left something to be desired. (I take any and all blame for that.) It was in GD, under my assumption that it could be moved wherever it needed to be, and was never closed. In fact, I never knew there was a rule against it. It certainly was never enforced.

[Iron Voltex]

I'm wondering if, at this point, it's off-topic to be on-topic, but I'll do my best anyway.

How do I picture the future of BZPower? For the past few months, I haven't really been able to convince myself that BZPower will be here as long as I might want it to be. Compared to how many new members I was seeing everywhere I went on this site in April before the downtime, I've seen none since hte forums came back. Members are going to leave, and if new people are not going to join, the site will die. The biggest change I think needs to take place to remedy this would be to change the look of the front page- it screams Bionicle right now, and Bionicle hasn't had new sets for two years now. Many of those who might join won't even know what the site is about anymore.

Perhaps an element of Bionicle could be kept on the front page, but overall I think it needs to be more all-around Lego; perhaps a banner to the side or up top that includes several themes. If the hot topics list were to return, perhaps it could be extended to be the five most popular topics in several forums such as the Library, Set Discussion, etc.

The next thing would be to change the look of the forums themselves- the current look is generic and rather bland compared with other sites, and I think that translates somewhat into how many people are joining the site. The skins that may or may not be in the works (I haven't seen any updates on them, so I'm not sure) would help, along with a default skin that screams "Lego Fan Site!" like the front page screams Bionicle would help to tell new members the type of site they are on.

I also think the advertising/linking policies need to change. We're allowed to mention Twitter, but other sites are very popular too (perhaps even more so), and being allowed to link to them could help BZPower. For instance, if I were to make a series of videos about playing a video game and wanted to advertise it all over the internet but it was against the rules of a site (like it is here), why would I join? there's no point. Members of other sites that want to share their work here but can't just post it like they might with an epic or comic won't join if joining won't help with the purpose they have in mind. And for current members on here it would help boost activity; members would be able to share links to videos or stories that they have found and enjoyed without breaking the rules.

Now, I understand why the rules are in place- and I think everyone would agree if some limits were still in place. Certain content would not be allowed no matter what, and if someone broke the rule it would be discovered fast enough. Overall the members on this site are responsible, and that would reflect if someone linked a video/story/whatever that wasn't appropriate. I myself don't generally pay attention to comments on things, unless I'm commenting myself; it should be the main material that's the focus of the rule. If someone goes to a video, it's their decision whether they want to waste an hour or two trudging through hundreds of comments that may or may not follow BZP guidelines.

I also think more member spotlights would be good, though perhaps the news isn't the best place, else it could be overloaded. However, a box or link in the news to spotlighted comedies, comics, creations, and the like could be used. I think a button for members to use to report stories and such would be good, as it would show what the members of BZPower are reading and enjoying at the moment. The spotlights in the news could be reserved for contest winners and the like. I do believe that the members of BZPower should have more of an influence on the spotlights.

As for the staff, I don't find them to be heartless, robotic, cruel, or the like. Since the forums came up I have noticed many of the staff posting more "regular" posts, but even before the downtime I found that all I had to do to remove any "staff are robots that are to be feared" thoughts was look; I started visiting the blogs and began following a couple staff there. I played RPGs and games with staff who happened to play them as well. I read their stories, looked in General Discussion and COT. All you need to do is take a few minutes and look, and you'll see the staff are like us. Except a lot busier. And as such, I understand why they might be curt and to the point sometimes. Sometimes you need to be like that to get a point across and make people understand that you're serious. It isn't fun when you have to resolve a conflict, decide who might be right or wrong, or warn someone (possibly repeatedly) about following the rules. I haven't ever been a staff on a site before, but you get the same sort of experiences when you run games, and that I have done.

I don't fear the staff; rather, I respect them. If they tell me something I've done is breaking the rules, I listen and do what I can to correct. Heck, I'll just throw this out and thank Gata for being so patient with me in regards to my signature; I've lost ocunt of how many times he's reminded me . In all seriousness though, I do respect them, but I don't fear them. They didn't get selected to become staff because they might be funny or build cool creations; they were selected to become staff because they put effort into helping the site run and grow, and cared about it. Being a staff member sounds like it might be hard work, and not fun and games all the time; it carries responsibilities. These responsibilities would sometimes have to require what might seem like a "robotic" response.

As for proto, I think it is an effective system. It's not something I worry about every time I post, but I like it because it's a reminder of where I'm at with every post. If I've done something wrong, having my proto bar sitting there missing a point is going to remind me not to do it again. I learned the hard way last year, and the lesson has stuck with me; as such, I have no qualms with the proto system.

Anyway, those are my (extensive) thoughts on the matters. I think I'm done.

-ibrow

[Vahki-Nui]

Wait, is everybody going off topic here? C'mon, i thought better about you guys.

Personally, i fear AND respect the staff. I fear because of the proto and i respect because i.... well, i don't know actually.

However, while some of the staff are actually pretty nice, most people from other forums would only see the evil robots(bad mods) on this sites(vocal minority, remember?), and as result, BZP gets a bad rap around them.

Also, the fact that you respect them all looks like forced optimism here(Not if I thought it.... )

Inewahu

[jallerbo]

The future of BZP? The only thing "bionicleish" about the website is the name and themes. It's really already a lego website, as most news and subjects regard lego products in general. However, it seems to me as i look through the forums that it is becoming Pony Zone Power...

[Toa Zaz]

Wait, is everybody going off topic here? C'mon, i thought better about you guys.

Personally, i fear AND respect the staff. I fear because of the proto and i respect because i.... well, i don't know actually.

However, while some of the staff are actually pretty nice, most people from other forums would only see the evil robots(bad mods) on this sites(vocal minority, remember?), and as result, BZP gets a bad rap around them.

Also, the fact that you respect them all looks like forced optimism here(Not if I thought it.... )

Inewahu

Furthermore proving my point. You don't see this kind of thing on other forums.

[fishers64]

Wait, is everybody going off topic here? C'mon, i thought better about you guys.

Personally, i fear AND respect the staff. I fear because of the proto and i respect because i.... well, i don't know actually.

However, while some of the staff are actually pretty nice, most people from other forums would only see the evil robots(bad mods) on this sites(vocal minority, remember?), and as result, BZP gets a bad rap around them.

Also, the fact that you respect them all looks like forced optimism here(Not if I thought it.... )

Inewahu

Furthermore proving my point. You don't see this kind of thing on other forums.

How many other forums are run by a bunch of guys who happened to be Bionicle nerds on the side? Which now is the most popular Bionicle fansite on the web and is still alive even though Bionicle is dead?

BZP is unique. Lumping it in with other forums does it a disservice.