Elements & Names

[Illuminatus]

Alright, forgive me if there's an official elements topic or something (I honestly couldn't find one). I just had a few questions on my mind that could likely lead to some interesting conclusions.First of all, Electricity (Tahnok-Kal's power from 2003) is essentially the element Lightning, is it not? It isn't a sub-power or anything, just the same thing with a different name? If so, why do you think Greg or whoever was responsible at the time really bothered to give the element a new name? I recall reading something about "Lightning" sounding more mythical and fundamental than "Electricity", and the case of "Iron" versus "Metal" was somewhat similar. Yet, if that were the reason for the change, then why didn't they also rename "Sonics" to "Sound"? It sounds much more basic and "elemental" if you ask me (pun intended). Or was it really just a matter of what sounded better/cooler?My other question is, was the name "Swamp" for the "non-Toa element"/"quasi-element"/power Acid of the Lehvak from 2002 completely decanonized, or did it just become less common?Thanks to whoever might drop by.

[bonesiii]

Electricity is a synonym of the element Lightning, yes. Several elements are given somewhat poetic names or nicknames, especially "The Green" for Plants, but like all elements, Toa of them can control large or tiny amounts of them. And yes, Lightning was chosen simply because it sounds cooler.Yes, "Iron" is another case. It's really Metal, and includes both proto-iron and normal iron as well as tons of other types, but the name apparently sounds cooler to some (I like Metal better myself)."Sound" basically refers only to the mid-strong to weak range of what Sonics can do. I think the same logic as with Lightning applies here; Sonics sounds cooler and more impressive than mere "sound." So a Toa of Sonics can not only mimic sounds, but can physically blast objects apart or push them with deafening sonic energy. (Although they might wanna invest in earplugs first.. )Swamp is more confusing. It's still canon as a nickname or synonym, but Acid is usually used since it's clearer.And we don't have an official elements topic anymore. :)Does that answer all your questions?

Edited March 9, 2012 by bonesiii

[Illuminatus]

Yes, and (un)fortunately it raises a couple more questions. :PSo if Lightning and Electricity are synonymous, that means the two names are virtually interchangeable and one can easily call, e.g. Nikila a Toa of Electricity and that wouldn't be any less canon than "Toa of Lightning"? Not so sure about how much "Toa of Metal" would be okay, though, but since you mentioned "The Green", that is essentially Bara Magna's "Jungle", isn't it? Like you said, it's a nickname (and in BS01, "The Green" redirects to "Jungle"), so could a "Toa of Jungle" be appropriate?What I'm asking is, basically, can a known element have more than one title, and if so, does one necessarily have to be the dominant or more correct one?EDIT: Yes, and regarding "Swamp", consider this pattern. See how in the instance of the Bohrok-Kal, five of them wield five confirmed secondary elements, with the exception of Lehvak-Kal (the green one), who's got an altered and somewhat lethal sub-power of Air, which is a primary element. And in the case of the six original Bohrok breeds, the other five primary elements are implemented, the only exception being the Lehvak (once again the green type) who have a pretty lethal power, namely Acid. What I'm asking is, if Vacuum can be a deadly sub-power/attribute of Air, couldn't Acid be a sub-power of something as well? Something "swampy" but not as lethal, that could be used by Toa (but not necessarily).

Edited March 9, 2012 by GregF /RIP/

[Maganar]

As far as I am aware, it is completely correct to consider Nikila a Toa of Electricity, it's simply a non-standard usage and not the name that, for example, she would use to describe herself. Matter of fact, I don't think any MU inhabitant would use the term "Toa of Electricity" as it is a terminology they have been indoctrinated against. If such a term was used, I could foresee a MU inhabitant simply replying "You mean a Toa of Lightning?" As far as I know, no canon character actually referred to Tahnok-kal as controlling the element of electricity; they may have said he controlled electricity, but not calling it an element. I haven't checked that, but I'm pretty sure of it. The simple fact is that the element is lightning, but the power can be called electricity, at least as I remember.Jungle/The Green is even worse, because you can add a third: Plant Life. I remember no distinction between Jungle/The Green/Plant Life as powers, but I believe that The Green is the element. It's all a bit of a mess, but that's how it seems to come across given the ways they are referred to in canon.So, I think that Lightning and The Green are the element names, but the power names are interchangeable. Ugh. Now my brain is scrambled.

[fishers64]

EDIT: Yes, and regarding "Swamp", consider this pattern. See how in the instance of the Bohrok-Kal, five of them wield five confirmed secondary elements, with the exception of Lehvak-Kal (the green one), who's got an altered and somewhat lethal sub-power of Air, which is a primary element. And in the case of the six original Bohrok breeds, the other five primary elements are implemented, the only exception being the Lehvak (once again the green type) who have a pretty lethal power, namely Acid. What I'm asking is, if Vacuum can be a deadly sub-power/attribute of Air, couldn't Acid be a sub-power of something as well? Something "swampy" but not as lethal, that could be used by Toa (but not necessarily).

Acid is likely a subpower of plant life. (i.e. Jungle/The Green). It's not as clear cut, but some plants are acidic, and it doesn't seem to go with anything else. That's what its alternate name "Swamp" would imply.EDIT: Swamps can be acidic or alkaline, but are mostly composed of decomposing plant matter. Also, BS01 lists acid as a Rhotuka power, which are powers not normally used by Toa unless they have a Rhotuka launcher or a mask that allows them to use it. Not elemental. Edited March 9, 2012 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

Calling Nikila a Toa of Electricity COULD be "less canon", though, because the standard name according to canon is lightning, but that's semantics. That's the translation of the term the Matoran would use. It's even possible they don't have two words at all, and it's only in the English that there are synonyms. Lightning might simply be the one that's closer to the meaning of the Matoran term, emphasizing greater power rather than lesser. But both are canon.With "The Green", my answer probably isn't very canonically reliable, because frankly I don't like it at all.I always call them Toa of Plants or something like Jungle if I can; I only mention it because it is the one Greg apparently prefers. I interpret it as a more literal "word for word" translation of the term the Matoran would actually use, while the more accurate "meaning" translation is Plants. Foreign languages often operate on such principles. So which translation is "better" simply depends on whether you prefer the word-for-word, or the meaning.The reason I don't like the word-for-word is because, while I'm sure it could sound cool in Matoran, in English it just sounds cheesy to me. AAAAnyways....Yes, Plants and Jungle are essentially the same element, though Plants refers specifically to the protodermic elemental power, while Jungle refers to the Glatorian/Agori elemental association and (once charged up) the weapons' non-protodermic elemental power. So there IS a subtle distinction which basically just tell the listener which type of being is using the power. But the power itself is the same, yes, and you could use the terms interchangeably.Yes, a known element can have more than one title. Always just one (or, IMO in the case of Plants, two) is the most accurate one to what is fictionally being "translated" from the Matoran, though.Vacuum is NOT a sub-power of Air specifically; that's a very common misconception. It's the inverse of all elements. A vacuum lacks air, yes, but it also lacks water, stone, etc. (well, all material elements; light doesn't count here for example). People assume it's "anti-air" because it was used for the "Le" Bohrok, but that is probably just because air is the most obvious element that would need held out in order to make a vacuum. Theoretically Lehvak-Kal could make vacuums in water as well, and possibly in Earth or Sand.And vacuum could be run without elemental power easily. A simple forcefield bubble that expands would do it, which is probably why it is classified as a power, not an element.I don't think the reasoning for Vacuum fits the reasoning for Acid. Acid refers to a very specific kind of material substance. In my opinion it should have be called a full Element, and even should be a Toa element. The reasoning Greg uses for why it isn't is that Toa are only good, and Acid can't be used for good, but I disagree with this; it can be. And is, all the time, in real life. And also that argument should preclude Fire and Plasma too, and perhaps Lightning and others, so it hasn't been applied consistently. But that's the canon word, so it's not considered a Toa element, but yes, it might be elemental.The problem is, what would it be a sub-power of, exactly? I can't really think of anything. Perhaps a fusion power, though, combining water with something else, maybe Plasma. But the simple solution that fans seem to prefer is simply to call it the one non-Toa Element. :)Maganar, when the Bohrok story was written, the story team simply hadn't decided whether Lightning would be an element or not. That was a retcon, so canonically now it WAS an element. I think that the reason a different term was used was simply that the Bohrok are robots and electricity sounds more robotic. When we say "electricity" in modern life we usually think of wires and circuitry and stuff we associate with robots, but "lightning" with nature.And again, "Plant Life" (or, better, Plants) is, as I understand it, the proper element name. "The Green" is just a nickname, but one Greg seems to prefer for some reason. "The Green" would work just fine for actual Matoran language because they would all know what it is, but for fans IMO it doesn't work because it's so unclear with Air, and appears to just describe a color, so it requires extra explanation.And your distinction between "element" and "power" doesn't work IMO because they are called elemental powers. They're the same thing. There's not a non-elemental version and an elemental version. It's one power, and it's of a type of powers that are elemental, versus other powers (like shielding, strength, etc.) that are non-elemental.fishers, yeah, I've heard the Plants subpower theory before, forgot to mention it lol. I tend to doubt it, but it does make sense given they're all green. I really don't like the idea, though, as it associates Plants with something very dangerous. True, some plants can be dangerous in the way (and many others), but the vast majority of plants are good, and there's no real reason acid should be more associated with them than Water for example.The listing of it as a Rhotuka power is probably irrelevant. All protodermic powers can be Rhotuka powers, and vice versa, and that includes elemental powers and sub-elementals, etc. Specifically, the Hordika had six elemental Rhotuka powers. If anything it appears far easier to turn an elemental power into a Rhotuka power than a normal protodermic power, so that could be used to argue for it being elemental.

Edited March 9, 2012 by bonesiii

[Illuminatus]

Well-written and elaborate as always, bones. Thank you. And thanks to the others who replied as well.I actually remember that argument regarding Vacuum being the absence of anything, not just Air. It's what initially lead to my idea of the "Void" element, as being the balance of Light and Shadow (and the intangible counterpoint of virtually all other elements, which are tangible). And yet, Vacuum does seem to be associated primarily with Air in BIONICLE. BS01 describes it as the "power that allows the wielder to control and absorb air" and thus Lehvak-Kal would likely not be able to produce a vacuum bubble within solid matter, because it seems more to me as absorbing, rather than creating anything. So it's probably just Air... :shrugs:Regarding Acid, theoretically, it could easily work as an Element, especially considering some people already see it as one (except for BS01, which has it under plain "Powers"), but my impression was that Greg honestly doesn't mind if it were thought of as an element, as long as it was strictly "non-Toa". Well, that's hardly a problem. Shadow is also not a natural Toa element, so I'd say Acid qualifies.EDIT: Yes, and also consider how (provided you look at Vacuum as an Air-based power), all the Bohrok and Bohrok-Kal have element-based powers. It would only be fair to assume that Acid originates from one as well, or is an element itself.

Edited March 9, 2012 by GregF /RIP/

[bonesiii]

The canon portrayal of Lehvak-Kal's power specifically does seem to refer to only anti-air vacuum, yes, sorry if I was unclear on that. But the idea of vacuum itself is not specifically anti-air. It still wouldn't be a vacuum if, for example, it were filled with water instead. A Vacuum is the absence of all matter (or in cases like when the Kal suffocated the Toa to stun, an area of absence around solid matter). So my point is that vacuum in general is the opposite of all powers. Again, the Kal only needed to absorb and control (meaning hold back pressure) air, simply because that's the only element that normally fills the area land beings live in.In other words, Toa of other elements, or hypothetical sub-powers of unknown MU beings or tools/masks/etc. could create vacuums in other elements. Probably the easiest would be Toa of Iron or Stone; make a strong solid sphere, then absorb the matter in the middle, and voila you've got a vacuum. Toa of fluid elements like Air or Water could also do it if they're in solid rooms, as Matau did once. Apparently they would not be able to hold back the pressure normally on their own, though.In other other words ( ), it was just Lehvak-Kal's version of vacuum power. There could be other versions for every other material element. :)Yes, I agree about Acid compared to Shadow. But it could also be "elemental" as a fusion element, similar to the making of a storm in one of the comics with water + air, or glass as sand + fire. If so, a Bohrok could be made to weild it without it being a standalone element like Shadow. Either seems possible.My interpretation for why both Le types of Bohrok are different is simply that the makers of the Bohrok, and/or the Bahrag see Air as less useful for cleaning, and also Plants, while the other elements they saw as useful. So there doesn't need to be an elemental connection per se, just a practical consideration. (I am using this perspective in my fanfics, actually.)

Edited March 9, 2012 by bonesiii

[Illuminatus]

Yes, I completely agree about the other aspects of hypothetical vacuums that you mentioned. Which sort of makes perfect sense as to why Void could've worked, as a collective Element. Think about it. Void/Vacuum is the absence of all and any matter, and every element-wielding being technically creates this Void when they absorb their own element. It's something that's been there ever since the beginning. We wouldn't have virtually added anything too significant/different/complex to the canon, we'd have simply explained the existence of something very basic. (And besides, it's not like BIONICLE was ever about simplicity. )I realize there weren't quite too many fans of my (enhanced, cough, cough) elemental matrix proposal back in 2010, but it just might have worked. Acid (or its superset) could've been the 17th element in MU grid, and Void could've been the last piece of the puzzle. It isn't such a confusing concept at all, if you ask me. You said yourself that everyone can create an absence of something, like a bubble of vacuum. Why not redefine that absence and give it a cool name, especially if that makes room for a beautiful, fancy, math-type element grid. Just like the GBs would do it.*daydreams*Oh, well.EDIT: That said, it could only happen if Greg ever came back, and if I managed to receive the BSS's blessing. My earlier mistake was, I made the whole thing sound WAAY more complicated than it really was, and it is, in fact, pretty elementary (giggle, giggle)... Isn't it?

Edited March 9, 2012 by GregF /RIP/

[Anti Nui]

IIRC, wasn't Lewa sometimes referred to as a "Toa of Wind" in some of the early comics?On the topic of Vacuum: I always thought of "Vacuum" referring to more as the suction of air specifically rather than the absence of all matter (according to a dictionary "vacuum" can refer to both of those things), which would make it an Air-based subpower, and not, say, a water- or earth-based subpower.

[bonesiii]

IIRC, wasn't Lewa sometimes referred to as a "Toa of Wind" in some of the early comics?On the topic of Vacuum: I always thought of "Vacuum" referring to more as the suction of air specifically rather than the absence of all matter (according to a dictionary "vacuum" can refer to both of those things), which would make it an Air-based subpower, and not, say, a water- or earth-based subpower.

Again, there is no two things. Those are just different ways to describe the same thing. Air is suctioned when a comparative lack of all matter is present (lower pressure, or in extreme cases an actual void, though that's usually only possible in fiction -- but a vacuum chamber breaking open could do it too). "Vacuum cleaners" do this; the fan inside is pulling air away from a space, creating a lack of all matter, and other air is rushing in to fill the void.Do the same thing in any other fluid substance and it too will rush in to fill the void. It isn't just air. And again, if you could fill that void with other matter before the air could get there, the air would no longer "want" to rush in. It's all the same principle at work.Yeah, I agree about the 18 elements thing. I was a big fan of it, but unfortunately it looks unlikely to ever happen canonically now. Although the one downside to it would be it would cap elements, and personally I never really wanted a definite cap per se. But whatever. (Maybe if Bionicle were to come back, though, on another planet we might get more original elements like Crystal, Void, Acid, Kinetics, etc. though.)

[Illuminatus]

Hm, you're right, the cap would be a bit of a downside. People were hyped with the original proposal as it allowed for two fresh new elements during the time Greg still didn't intend to add any, and I guess that must've been exciting. I then thought maybe I could tweak the idea so we'd have two relatively logical and early elements to fill the void (what is it with me and puns these days?), but... obviously it became too grand.Do you think, however, if we were to get in contact with GregF somehow, and we knew for sure there wouldn't be any new serials or further storyline from now (for whatever reason), and therefore no new elements, we might be able to implement the 18-element grid after all?

[fishers64]

Do you think, however, if we were to get in contact with GregF somehow, and we knew for sure there wouldn't be any new serials or further storyline from now (for whatever reason), and therefore no new elements, we might be able to implement the 18-element grid after all?

It's possible, but it would not be advisable. If Lego decides to bring Bionicle back and we 'implement' a bunch of stuff, and Lego decides not to accept our craziness (which it will likely not), then it will create a good deal of misconceptions.

[Illuminatus]

Craziness? Please. LEGO would be the one creating all the misconceptions, because LEGO cares about selling toys and thus creates a bunch of incoherent (yet of course super "cool") ideas that have no solid ground.But you're right, of course LEGO wouldn't accept it if it went against the sales of fancy action figures. Let's just be clear who's the crazy one here (storyline-consistence-wise and not profit-wise).

[fishers64]

Craziness? Please. LEGO would be the one creating all the misconceptions, because LEGO cares about selling toys and thus creates a bunch of incoherent (yet of course super "cool") ideas that have no solid ground.But you're right, of course LEGO wouldn't accept it if it went against the sales of fancy action figures. Let's just be clear who's the crazy one here (storyline-consistence-wise and not profit-wise).

And yet we are sitting here, discussing these crazy ideas. Doesn't that make us more crazy?:PMany of these elements were fan suggestions, also, including the 18-element thing.

[bonesiii]

Let's just put it this way. IF Greg confirms the BSS can still operate (and commits to at least answering our proposals, whether or not there will be new story), then it can get another go-around as an improved version. I can't predict what the team might think (nor who would still be active or maybe replaced due to inactivity, etc.), nor what active BZPers might vote if we passed it on. But it would get a fair hearing as with anything.If Greg confirms the team is ended, then I am open to doing a fanon project of some kind beyond the Expanded Multiverse. I've been thinking of possibly organizing a (simple) fanon oriented primarily around reconciling the MNOG and other stuff with other canon where possible.And one thing I'd love to do is somehow organize a coherent story that runs through Bionicle from the beginning, concisely, so people could get the gist of the old storyline without all the complexity and the confusion of medium-hopping the canon story did. And without the boredom of just reading it from normal reference pages. Perhaps such a story could accept certain non-canon additions such as the 18 elements proposal. :)For now though I think it's best just to wait and see what, if anything, Greg will say (this year).

Edited March 11, 2012 by bonesiii

[Illuminatus]

Thanks, bones. That post made my day.

[Maganar]

Yikes, I chose to follow this topic and next thing I know I have 13 notifications coming from it in a couple days!On topic now: Thanks, bones, I was reading this topic when I got a crazy outline of how to explain this and went off on a loosely-thought-out stream-of-consciousness explanation which turned into a deceptively officious-sounding post that was a complete load of nonsense to anyone who took the time to consider the market progression that was occuring parallel to the story progression. Your explanation cleared things up a lot and (I thank you for this) completely discredited my wild rant that bore no real canon references. http://www.bzpower.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/tounge2.gif I wrote that dissertation late at night and my neurons were making connections I normally would prevent them from making...my apologies!Now for vacuum, I was under the impression that it would refer to only the vacuums in air just because the public reading it would be more likely to wrap their minds around that concept, even though I was fully aware of the actual significance of "vacuum" as the absence of all tangible material. However, looking at it as the negation of all elements puts a new twist on it and explains why Levahk-kal would have such a power. The Levahk were always combat-oriented and the Kal as a group were even more so, so it holds up logically that Levahk-kal would have the inverse of any combatant that could stand in the way - an element-controlling adversary.This time my brain is significantly less scrambled!