22 replies to this topic

[Taipu1]

We all know that Matoran become weak and eventually unconscious without Kanohi, and yet also do not have the mental capacity to use Kanohi powers. My question is, why did the GBs design the Matoran to rely on the Kanohi, when the Kanohi apparently only serve as a weakness to them, gaining nothing from the masks. This one has got me absolutely stumped...

[fishers64]

The GBs were planning on shutting the robot down when it was done. Mask-dissolving gas would be quick and easy.

Also, it's so that the Toa can have one more power than just the elemental powers, and so they could easily convert Matoran into Toa.

[Paleo]

The GBs were planning on shutting the robot down when it was done. Mask-dissolving gas would be quick and easy.

Source? Your correct that they were going to shut them down, but I doubt it would be with mask-dissolving gas.

As for Taipu1's original question, it's not that quick. I'm guessing that it might be an easy way for Toa to shut down a malfunctioning Matoran. However, no aspect of the story has ever touched on this, considering that we only recently learned that the original role of Matoran was to serve as Mata Nui's nanotechnology.

[fishers64]

The GBs were planning on shutting the robot down when it was done. Mask-dissolving gas would be quick and easy.

Source? Your correct that they were going to shut them down, but I doubt it would be with mask-dissolving gas.

As for Taipu1's original question, it's not that quick. I'm guessing that it might be an easy way for Toa to shut down a malfunctioning Matoran. However, no aspect of the story has ever touched on this, considering that we only recently learned that the original role of Matoran was to serve as Mata Nui's nanotechnology.

I'm just saying that the GBs wanted to shut down the Matoran, thus mask removal = easy shutdown mechanism. The gas was just a random detail I threw in - it's harder to escape a gas than a bunch of professional mask removing beings.

[bonesiii]

I agree with Paleo. The GBs are practically obsessed with safeguards and contingency plans. If Matoran went wrong, there would be an easy disable option.

I doubt that would take the form of a gas though, lol. (But who knows. ) But some kind of being, whether Toa or whoever, could take the masks off. I did invent a mask for the Expanded Multiverse (not one of the canonized ones) that projects an energy field that disrupts the magnetic connection between masks and faces, so would work similar to the gas idea. Something similar to either idea may actually exist out there. Like how we never knew about Marendar until it was shown escaping in the story. It's reasonable to theorize that countless other safeguards might not be known about.

But either way, removing masks the normal way has safeguard value.

[Katuko]

Remember that Matoran generally do not require food, and the energy recharge stations were presumably not used daily. Toa can use the extra power stored in Kanohi, while Matoran use them as batteries. Presumably it was easier to use Kanohi than some internal energy storage unit, especially considering that Toa powers were supposed to be interchangeable (Matoran can wear other types of Kanohi, just not use their power). To build further on that: Toa have some sort of internal elemental power storage as well as a section for Toa Energy. These powers are not changeable as far as we know.

In addition to the "easy shutdown" idea, we thus get modular design on masks/the "power unit", but not on the rest.

[Paleo]

I agree with Paleo. The GBs are practically obsessed with safeguards and contingency plans. If Matoran went wrong, there would be an easy disable option.

I doubt that would take the form of a gas though, lol. (But who knows. ) But some kind of being, whether Toa or whoever, could take the masks off. I did invent a mask for the Expanded Multiverse (not one of the canonized ones) that projects an energy field that disrupts the magnetic connection between masks and faces, so would work similar to the gas idea. Something similar to either idea may actually exist out there. Like how we never knew about Marendar until it was shown escaping in the story. It's reasonable to theorize that countless other safeguards might not be known about.

But either way, removing masks the normal way has safeguard value.

The GBs were incredibly conscious that their creations could go wrong. They created a Toa massacring robot just in case a few Toa went to the dark side

Remember that Matoran generally do not require food, and the energy recharge stations were presumably not used daily. Toa can use the extra power stored in Kanohi, while Matoran use them as batteries. Presumably it was easier to use Kanohi than some internal energy storage unit, especially considering that Toa powers were supposed to be interchangeable (Matoran can wear other types of Kanohi, just not use their power). To build further on that: Toa have some sort of internal elemental power storage as well as a section for Toa Energy. These powers are not changeable as far as we know.

In addition to the "easy shutdown" idea, we thus get modular design on masks/the "power unit", but not on the rest.

The recharging stations were only used once a year. I don't think the mask would be a battery as much as an on/off switch.

[bonesiii]

I don't think the mask would be a battery as much as an on/off switch.

On the other hand, generally removing a battery functions like an off switch. I dunno, though; I was under the impression their "eating" energy was stored in some mechanical equivalent of a stomach, while the mask thing is more about "completing their mind", so the coma comes about because of mind problems, not energy problems.

Come to think of it, if the mask = battery idea was right, wouldn't removing it make them basically starve to death quickly instead of a coma?

[fishers64]

I was under the impression that Toa and Matoran have some sort of "mental energy" which level would determine how much mask power could be used and how well powers could be focused.

For example, it seems that if a Toa is exhausted enough, they have trouble staying concious. These beings have to sleep, presumably to restore their minds like we do.

So life energy would be stored inside the body, and would affect elemental power usage (I think; correct if I'm wrong) and mental energy would affect mask power usage. Thus the mask would be the "battery" for such mental energy, and removing it would remove mental operations. I think that Toa, however, would have a backup reserve of mental energy to compensate for the possibilty of their mask getting knocked off in the middle of a battle.

[Katuko]

Come to think of it, if the mask = battery idea was right, wouldn't removing it make them basically starve to death quickly instead of a coma?

A machine doesn't "die" just because its battery runs out, bonesiii. It ceases to function, ergo: a coma. Kanohi have been said to eventually run out of power (after hundreds of thousands of years, however), so that is why I likened them to batteries. The Matoran gets energy from them, and is weakened and/or goes into a coma without it.

If we call a Matoran a laptop, then perhaps it would be more accurate to call their Kanohi the power supply. As long as you have it, you don't need additional energy. If you remove it, your laptop runs slower until the battery runs out, then it is "comatose" but not broken.

[bonesiii]

A machine doesn't "die" just because its battery runs out, bonesiii. It ceases to function, ergo: a coma. Kanohi have been said to eventually run out of power (after hundreds of thousands of years, however), so that is why I likened them to batteries. The Matoran gets energy from them, and is weakened and/or goes into a coma without it.

If we call a Matoran a laptop, then perhaps it would be more accurate to call their Kanohi the power supply. As long as you have it, you don't need additional energy. If you remove it, your laptop runs slower until the battery runs out, then it is "comatose" but not broken.

But a coma is not the same kind of ceasing to function as what happens when something is without any power supply at all. It's more like a computer hybernating with its processing functions suspended (like if part of the processing was in a removable system, like a flash drive, but the analogy doesn't quite fit here either). They're still functioning as in heart beating, breathing, etc. but basically asleep. A laptop that's not plugged in and is out of battery power totally shuts down, so "dies" -- but since it's a machine the analogy doesn't work here because computers can shut totally down and come back just fine, while partially organic beings cannot.

Also, I thought Greg said Kanohi don't run out of power, while Kanoka do. I could be remembering wrong, though, and that part never made sense to me, since they're basically the same thing. But he was referring to their actual power; a Kanoka used to make a Matoran Kanohi has a power, albeit a weak one, which stops working when it's turned into a mask. As far as I know the conscious-keeping aspect of the Kanohi works forever. We've never heard of Matoran needing new masks from time to time unless they break or are stolen.

Also, how would that work with Toa? They can remain conscious without their masks, they just aren't as alert. They have just as much life energy. And Matoran do need additional energy about once every year. Also, they absorb that energy through their hands, not their masks. It's nice thinking but it probably doesn't work.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Katuko]

And if we add in yet another "computer part", then? Specifically, the tiny battery mounted on certain internal components that keeps their last state active even when all other power is lost. If we consider that the Great Beings could create such self-sufficient machines as we have seen, surely they could add a small generator that does not allow the Matoran to stay awake, but that allows it to be comatose rather than dead.

If we refer to the vahki, it might all be clockwork anyways.

[bonesiii]

It's possible, but still doesn't fit well.

We have strong evidence for the "mental energy" interpretation, since when they die an imprint of their spirit is left on the mask and they can be revived via this like Jaller was. This tells me their brain functions are operating through the mask somehow, not their energy storage. And I suspect the story team would simply think of the battery being roughly where the stomach is.

So removing the mask is probably like hitting the hybernation button on a computer [EDIT: Err, closing the lid would be an even more apt analogy since it's physically moving something]. However much charge is left in the battery or if it's plugged in this still hybernates the computer, even at fullest power, by taking the processing offline. This would have a number of advantages, if the problem with the Matoran (under the GB safeguard theory) is repairable. The alternative would just keep them alive a little longer but this way they could remain comatose for a very long time, giving plenty of time to figure out how to fix whatever was wrong with them.

Also your theory would create unnecessary story complexity and confusion over what mask is on who and how much charge is in them. You might find a Matoran unconscious in a barren land and try to get them back by putting a mask nearby on them, only to find out that mask is totally drained of power. A Matoran could eat and have their mask stolen and then immediately need to eat again. A Toa who uses a Suva could have all kinds of problems. They might need to eat once for each mask, for example, instead of just once for themselves.

But right now in the story it's nicely simple -- have mask, are conscious, and totally unrelated to that is that Matoran need to 'eat', just as we do (though by a different method). When the story depicts a Matoran losing a mask and getting a replacement, it's just that simple -- here's your new mask, and that's all we need to know. Easier for fans to grasp, no?

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[Peach 00]

It is very strange, but perhaps the Kanohi serve as something of a heart? Even though useless, it might keep them alive. I'd prefer to think Bonesiii explains this a lot better, as he did in the post above me, lol.

[bonesiii]

Well it can't literally be their actual heart, since their heartlight still flashes and they live on if maskless. But a mental version of a heart, perhaps, pumping something like mental energy, sure. Maybe pumping Psionic energy, since that is an element. Would help justify that element better.

[Katuko]

Also your theory would create unnecessary story complexity and confusion over what mask is on who and how much charge is in them. You might find a Matoran unconscious in a barren land and try to get them back by putting a mask nearby on them, only to find out that mask is totally drained of power. A Matoran could eat and have their mask stolen and then immediately need to eat again. A Toa who uses a Suva could have all kinds of problems. They might need to eat once for each mask, for example, instead of just once for themselves.

I will mostly agree to the rest of your points, but what part of "hundreds of thousands of years" did you miss?

But right now in the story it's nicely simple -- have mask, are conscious, and totally unrelated to that is that Matoran need to 'eat', just as we do (though by a different method). When the story depicts a Matoran losing a mask and getting a replacement, it's just that simple -- here's your new mask, and that's all we need to know. Easier for fans to grasp, no?

If I imprint on a mask by wearing it for centuries; and then I pick up a new one, can you immediately "spawn" me from the old mask? There are still complexities, my friend.

[Makuta Matata]

It's probably because if they become Toa, they'll need a Mask.

[bonesiii]

Also your theory would create unnecessary story complexity and confusion over what mask is on who and how much charge is in them. You might find a Matoran unconscious in a barren land and try to get them back by putting a mask nearby on them, only to find out that mask is totally drained of power. A Matoran could eat and have their mask stolen and then immediately need to eat again. A Toa who uses a Suva could have all kinds of problems. They might need to eat once for each mask, for example, instead of just once for themselves.

I will mostly agree to the rest of your points, but what part of "hundreds of thousands of years" did you miss?

But right now in the story it's nicely simple -- have mask, are conscious, and totally unrelated to that is that Matoran need to 'eat', just as we do (though by a different method). When the story depicts a Matoran losing a mask and getting a replacement, it's just that simple -- here's your new mask, and that's all we need to know. Easier for fans to grasp, no?

If I imprint on a mask by wearing it for centuries; and then I pick up a new one, can you immediately "spawn" me from the old mask? There are still complexities, my friend.

As I said, are you sure Greg said that about Kanohi running out? I recall him saying they never do (that is, their power working, if they are Noble or Great). Kanoka he said do get drained, and that happens over less than a thousand years as it already happened on Mata Nui Island, which is why when the Toa come they don't have functioning Kanoka anymore. I'm just wondering where you heard that is all.

And how can that fit with the known facts that on Mata Nui Matoran eat often, and on Metru Nui once per year? But I will concede that maybe part of your idea is true, that at least some eating energy must somehow get to the (Noble or Great... I dunno about Matoran, for conscious-keeping maybe) masks, explaining why they don't run out (as fast or whatever) compared to Kanoka. I just think that the vast majority of eaten energy is probably in the body in some equivalent of a stomach.

Good point about the imprinting. If their mind must interface with it to remain conscious, it seems plausible to me to simply say that any mask on their face and intact when they die gets the imprint, due to their mind being interfaced with the mask. Any mask that was previously on their face doesn't get the imprint because their spirit was not released at that time due to death. Or something like that, heh -- it's unclear how it works.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[Katuko]

As I said, are you sure Greg said that about Kanohi running out? I recall him saying they never do (that is, their power working, if they are Noble or Great). Kanoka he said do get drained, and that happens over less than a thousand years as it already happened on Mata Nui Island, which is why when the Toa come they don't have functioning Kanoka anymore. I'm just wondering where you heard that is all.

I am likely confusing it with Kanoka, in that case. It just seemed reasonable to me that if Kanoka run out of energy (though faster due to being used in bursts without any form of extra energy source) then Kanohi would eventually run out too; especially since a lot of the Kanoka's power leaks out during the mask-making process.

And how can that fit with the known facts that on Mata Nui Matoran eat often, and on Metru Nui once per year?

I didn't think about the eating on Mata Nui because it didn't come up much during those years. The most can recall of food is the fish sellers in the MNOG, and after that I have assumed they have an internal energy unit they recharge with eating/energy absorption; just that it wouldn't be necessary to recharge that often as long as the Kanohi provide some energy. I've thought this way because I've always thought of them as "batteries" - they contain power in some form, and the Matoran faint without them. To me, it's just seemed obvious that they worked that way.

Good point about the imprinting. If their mind must interface with it to remain conscious, it seems plausible to me to simply say that any mask on their face and intact when they die gets the imprint, due to their mind being interfaced with the mask. Any mask that was previously on their face doesn't get the imprint because their spirit was not released at that time due to death. Or something like that, heh -- it's unclear how it works.

To use yet another computer speak; we could call it the "blackout backup", then - the final sparks of energy left in the body is used to imprint the mask. If a new mask is put on a mental signal is sent to the previous one (similar to a Suva connection) to erase the old imprint. If someone else puts on the mask they override any imprint that is there by default. Or something.

New question: The resurrected being... I would assume it is same one with the same spirit "pulled in" or transferred; but what if (dun-dun-duuun!) it's more of a Hydraxon-esque deal? A clone that thinks he's the original? I ask because I wonder what happened to Jaller's body in MoL. Whether they buried it or not, would it still be there if the "new" Jaller went there to check?

[Paleo]

@Katuko: Your right about Kanohi eventually losing their power. While I can't find the exact topic, it was confirmed that Kanohi do eventually loose their power, but much more slowly than a Kanoka.

I believe that Matoran ate more on Mata Nui than in Metru Nui because the fish and other foods they had were a generally inadequate food source compared to their once-a-year energy adsorption.

As for your new question, I have absolutely no clue.

[bonesiii]

Thanks for the confirm, Paleo. Also, come to think of it, my "little chargeup" idea probably shouldn't work, otherwise why would the mask ever run out? Unless it's like a battery simply breaking due to overuse. But let's see if we can put together a coherent picture of it, does this one work?

Matoran and company have an internal rechargeable battery for the life energy taken from eating. This runs their body.

Kanoka/Kanohi are their own non-rechargeable battery, and this runs both the power-power and the conscious-keeping power. But when the Kanoka is turned into a mask and worn, it's "plugged in" to the body's battery, so it now drains its own battery only very slowly. But eventually the mask's own battery does wear out and it will need replaced. Since Kanoka aren't "plugged in", they run out much faster.

And it does interface with their minds as that "blackout backup" idea. Maybe while they're wearing it, it serves like RAM, allowing conscious thought, and switches to a backup system (or stores their spirit) only on death.

That would probably account for everything we know, yes? So the masks -are- batteries, but simply not the battery that runs the Matoran's body.

As for what happens in revival, Greg's wordings on this have implied that the actual energy spirit of the being is attached to the Kanohi, and slowly fades away over time, so when they're revived, it's the same person. But apparently a new body. The old body could still be dug up, or so it seems.

Someone has speculated that the actual spirit drifts away randomly but the mask can act like a beacon to call the spirit back, for a time. This would fit with Greg's wording too, although it's more of a stretch.

I suppose you could say that it's the same person in a cloned body, if that makes any sense.


Edit: Actually, about the battery thing, there's good reason to think that ALL protodermis functions like a battery. Let's say the above Kanohi battery thing is true. The energy charged in this battery is a "power power" energy, which is different from "life energy." Energies can be transformed to other energies, but that's not my point here, it's that the mask is probably storing a different -kind- of energy and that alone could explain why it is seemingly not rechargeable.

But if this is true, there's good reason to think that there's no specific battery organ or machine inside the Matoran, but rather that the entire body of the Matoran functions as a battery. I say this because Kanoka and Kanohi don't have moving parts or components at all -- it's just a whole material that is in one shape or the other, and all the protodermic particles of the whole shape control all aspects of the power.

There might be components inside each protodermis molecule, though, including a battery. So each molecule of the Matoran's body might be a battery.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Katuko]

That sounds like a good sum-up, yeah.

[Soran]

I must agree with the others about it being an easy way to shut down the matoran.

Example:

You're watching Tv and decide your bored, so you go to turn it off (Possible electronic shut down program for great beings),
But the darn Tv remote wont work, (Program malfunctions),
So you get off the couch and go press the on/off button to turn it off (Manually removing masks for shutdown capabilities).

Also I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but the mask could also function as a for someone to rest during a medical procedure (Apparently Toa of water can heal so I'm guessing Ga-Matoran are probably taught different healing methods/remedies) for example. Similar to sleeping gas (Or a baseball bat) knocking you out, the mask would function probably the same way. Probably like numbing the pain.

~Soran