47 replies to this topic

[Kopekemaster]

So what does everyone think about the whole Hewkii & Hafu and Jaller & Hahli romance/side story thing?
I thought it was just kinda distracting and out of place. Especially in the Bohrok animations.
What do all you think?

[GSR]

Well, it was decanonized later on, so officially speaking it never happened. That said, as with most works, I've got no objection to romance in Bionicle or Bionicle fanworks - I just look at it as an extra dimension for a few characters. There is of course the risk of making that all the characters are known for, or having the romance plot overtake the actual plot, but all things considered Bionicle is hardly something likely to fall victim to that problem.

[Legolover-361]

Bionicle characters are cyborgs. They do have some organic components (some of which may make up the brain), so it follows that they would have some of the characteristics of organic beings such as Glatorian and Agori.

[GSR]

Bionicle characters are cyborgs. They do have some organic components (some of which may make up the brain), so it follows that they would have some of the characteristics of organic beings such as Glatorian and Agori.

Well, if you want to take the in-universe view of it, the question boils down to whether or not the Great Beings created the Toa/Matoran in such a way that romantic feelings could ever be developed - and even if they didn't, if the glitches in the system that enabled them to develop such strong personalities are enough to enable romantic connections as well.

Seeing this thread also jogged my memory: a friend of mine had a theory which I rather liked, though I'm not sure how well it actually meshes with canon.

Matoran Universe inhabitants are primarily driven by their duty/destiny/purpose they were created for, and hence emotions that could distract them from that (such as love) are much less likely to surface in their minds. The emotions they currently experience are close enough to the acceptable bounds of their programming. Beings with less tasks they must carry out (Matoran) have more freedom and thus are more likely to develop more complex and contrary emotions (hence Macku and Hewkii’s feelings for one another, and Ahkmou’s betrayal.) Beings that began as Matoran also retain some element of this added freedom (hence Vakama’s temporary Face Heel Turn and the Vakama/Nokama/Matau teases.)

[Aanchir: Rachira of Time]

Even if romance didn't officially exist in the story, I don't think Greg himself let that limit his writing. He definitely didn't hesitate to give Matau a lot of lines where he flirted with Nokama during the Metru Nui story arc. I think this is the proper place for romance in BIONICLE: as a source of humor or motivation, much like that between Hewkii and Macku or Hahli and Jaller in the first three years of BIONICLE. Officially, this was never more than a "strong friendship", and to be fair very little described it as more than that. But we the viewers are meant to understand it and laugh at it from a human perspective, in which these sorts of jokes would be construed as romance.

Overall, I think Greg did a good job skirting the boundaries between this sort of "strong friendship" between male and female characters and true romance which wouldn't make sense in BIONICLE as it couldn't lead to anything. Onewa and Krahka exchange some lines in one of the 2005 novels that would definitely be teasing a romantic relationship if they happened to be between two human characters in a non-BIONICLE setting. Dalu goes on a rampage after believing Balta to be dead due to her (using Greg's words) "friendly loyalty" to Balta. Kiina, for what it's worth, is infatuated with Mata Nui, and it's no more "romantic" than any of these Matoran Universe examples.

So overall I think the idea is always "read it as it makes the most sense to you, but understand that romance as we understand it as humans can't exist among Matoran." Personally I like this. Even if I don't hesitate to "ship" certain characters, I don't really approve of the attitude of many shippers in other fandoms who feel that certain characters with good chemistry are "destined to be together". BIONICLE avoids that by making it so that, no matter what they feel about each other, no two characters are likely to be "together" beyond being allies or teammates. And I think that helps to keep over-the-top romantic speculation in check, even if we as fans can laugh at Matau and Nokama all we like.

[Taipu1]

Firstly, I think you mean Hewkii and Macku. Hafu is the well known and modest sculpter, and I'm not sure has shown much affection towards anyone.

I know the romances you speak of are completely non-canon, but at the end of the day it is up to the fan to determine what they see as canon, and what was not, and it was blatantly romance. I have no problem with it either, I think the story requires deeper social and emotional interactions between characters, as it pushes things away from the whole "they're just robots" thing, when they're not. I think it's another good way of adding dimensions to characters personalities, and the fact that it was de-canonized was pretty stupid.

[Dralcax]

Well, Glatorian reproduce biologically, so the Kiina thing may be reasonable. But MU inhabitants love each other no more than your computer loves your NXT.

Edited by Chaos Dralcax, Mar 29 2012 - 01:57 PM.

[CHTrilogy]

"Is there a place for romance..."? Not a drop, I'm afraid. At least, under the normal circumstances.

[Delta Titan Sparta]

Seeing as how Toa and other biomechanical beings have no need for romance, I'd say no. But, there are possibilities with Agori, Glatorian, Skrall, etc.

[Artezza Trigger]

I think its a concept thats beyond of the inhabitants of the MU. IMO, the "glitches" that gave them their freedom are probably what allowed the teasing and such, but weren't really enough to go beyond what their understanding of romance would be. I'd imagine its probably because of Unity. The Three Virtues were kind of embedded deeply into their minds, and the apparent romance could be explained away by the glitches still not being able to go beyond what "Unity" would have been defined as.

Kiina exists outside the MU with the other Glatorian, so these rules don't apply to her. It would still be realistic to believe the attraction to be more romantic than what would have been displayed in MU inhabitants.

Heh...I wonder what a Matoran or Toa would say if someone tried to explain romance to them?

[Ballom]

I think romance is a touch Bionicle could have used at times. These various beings have such ranges of emotion otherwise in the story, so to deny them love, or to haphazardly define what types of love exist, seems somewhat ludicrous. All of these responses of "no because they're robots and programs" seem to miss the point, in my mind. It should be a yes, because they're sapient.

~B~

[GSR]

Anachir has put it rather well, I think. Even putting aside the hard rule of "no romance in the MU", it's entirely possible to suggest two characters are romantically linked without actually making them romantically involved. It's a way to add an extra dimension to characters without adding the complexities and pitfalls of integrating actual romance into the plot.

If I may use my own writing for an example (oh god I feel so weird doing so), when writing "An Aftermath", I kept it in mind that there was a pretty strong chance Kiina had had feelings for Mata Nui, but there really wasn't any need to note as such in the narration - never mind suddenly solidifying that possibility into a certainty. But I tried to write her so that the possibility was there, just not in the spotlight. It's just another layer to a character that the readers can interpret on their own.

Edited by GSR, Mar 29 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[///dotcom///]

I have nothing against romance, but I think there would have never been any real way to include it as a noticeable factor, at least in the later years, without makingeverything even more convoluted and trite. And most pairings are boring.

(LewaxKopaka FTW.)

[Tekulo the WindWriter]

So what does everyone think about the whole Hewkii & Hafu and Jaller & Hahli romance/side story thing?

Totally. Canon.
That is what I think.
What? Greg and BS01 say otherwise? Well, they also say Teridax was killed by a giant rock, and we all know that can't possibly be tru-oh drat... =/

I think romance would have been really interesting. There were hints of romance between the toa mata when Hapka was an author (Kopaka vs Tahu for Gali especially) and look me in the eye and tell me a romance between Hewkii and Macku would have been boring come the year 2006. It would have made that year all the more interesting! Heck, even Jaller and Hahli would have been fun to see as a comparison and foil to Hewkii and Macku (Even if they are just "strong friendships" They pretty much abandoned all of their friends and their idols and call me crazy, but I didn't feel much remorse or even the bat of an eye from them. O.o).

In the beginning years? Yeah, it wasn't as meaningful and maybe those relationships didn't have a place at all in the story. However, I think that the ten years Bionicle had would have developed those relationships quite a bit. I'm not saying Gali flip-flops between Kopaka and Tahu with a steamy look at Pohatu every now and then or anything cliche like that, but... I mean, they're fighting to save the world, they learn about a universe that's far more dark and complicated than they originally knew and they see far more death and destruction... wouldn't you be interested to see what that little crush between toa turned into after going through so much?

(dotcom, I think you mean LewaxOnua FTW XP)

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of Gales, Mar 29 2012 - 10:34 PM.

[GSR]

The thing is, Bionicle was never really a series that tried to go that in-depth with its characters. At the end of the day, the focus of the story was (rightfully so) on the greater conflict, not on the relationships between the characters. A romantic element might have added some interesting interactions between the characters, but providing it with practically any focus beyond the occasional line here or there would have gone against the feel of the series as a whole. Realistically speaking, you have to keep in mind that this was a storyline designed to appeal to young males first and foremost, and if Greg had to choose between a fight scene and a character moment in a book or serial, I'm guessing he went for fight scene far more often than not.

And incidentally... Tahu/Gali vs. Lewa/Onua is a good example of the difference between pairs of characters clearly written with romantic possibilities intentionally insinuated, and characters where romantic possibilities aren't unthinkable, but they're clearly not intended in the characterization. Some of Tahu and Gali's interactions (particularly in the earlier books, as mentioned, and in Mask of Light) most likely were written with providing the possibility of that interpretation and that extra possible layer of character interaction, whereas Lewa and Onua's interactions were pretty clearly written first and foremost as just plain old friendship and 'family' loyalty. It's not that they can't be interpreted that way, but it's almost certainly going against authorial intent.

(Am... am I seriously discussing authorial intent in terms of non-canon romance in a toyline story? I think my English professor just had a migraine and he doesn't know why.)

[Tekulo the WindWriter]

(Am... am I seriously discussing authorial intent in terms of non-canon romance in a toyline story? I think my English professor just had a migraine and he doesn't know why.)

You, my friend, just made my night. XDD

(I mainly threw out the LewaxOnua just for a bit of relaxing humor -even if I do play with the idea from time to time cough-)

You do make good points, and I agree for the most part. Though, the personal aspects of Bionicle characters, or lack thereof kinda made me feel that something was missing from the story every now and then. Well, we did see that side of Vakama as a toa, so focusing on a certain character isn't unheard of in the story, I'd think, and I wouldn't say every character would have to be analyzed personally in the story (That would be insane. XD).

Still, imagine if you kept the little crushes between Hahli and Jaller, and Hewkii and Macku. When 2006 appeared, I wouldn't be expecting a novel soley on their relationships, but a nod in that direction would be kinda nice for fan interpretation at least. Hahli and Jaller seemed kinda dead to each other from that year further in my opinion (Okay, so when Jaller activated his Calix, they got a romantic scene over a boiling lake of lava), but they didn't appear to have a close friendship like they used to (romance or no). =/ Those aspects of them could have been developed, even if so slightly per year, and I have a feeling it could have transformed given enough time (even if it's just little by little)

Well, the target audience probably wouldn't be interested in that stuff (though I kinda disagree because I was shipping my minifigs since I was a kid XP), so I guess I could see why it was shied away from, but it's just something I felt had potential in the story, but was missed. And that is where fanfiction comes in. XDD

There, now we've both discussed non-canon romance in a toyline story (sorry I didn't delve into the authorial intent aspect too much).

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of Gales, Mar 29 2012 - 11:20 PM.

[GSR]

Well, I have a friend who says Lewa/Onua's his OTP, so I guess I'm a little less inclined to process it as a joke pairing now. Also, I remembered you saying you were for it once in some thread or other.

Of course I'm not saying that there should have been novels dedicated just to the characters, with no real action to speak of (that's what fanworks are for, amirite?) but yeah, it's really a case of knowing your audience. What characterization there was had to be kept fairly in line with moving the plot forward, since space was at a premium and the point of the story was, generally speaking, to appeal to the target audience - and the target audience was by and large looking for action of some form or another. I do agree it would have been nice to get a little more interaction out of the characters in response to some of the revelations they faced, but c'est la vie.

Edited by GSR, Mar 29 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[bonesiii]

Well, Glatorian reproduce biologically, so the Kiina thing may be reasonable. But MU inhabitants love each other no more than your computer loves your NXT.

Not really -- they love in most other ways besides romantic love. Brotherly love, love of fellow members of society, motivating to do good instead of evil, etc. are all emotions they feel and have practical value.

IMO, the potential for romantic feelings may be there, although not intended by the GBs any more than sapience is, but since they have no connection with Agori society or, of course, with real-world, they would not feel the need to turn it into what we as humans often try to read into it. So basically I don't see the "close friends" and "romantic feelings" concepts as mutually exclusive in this case. It's simply an alien society to us; they are different from us in many important ways, and so their behavior and emotions aren't exactly like ours. Just close enough that we can mostly relate.

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

I recall hearing that, while beings fro the MU are not capable of reproduction between themselves and as such don't have a need for romantic love, the Spherus Magnans are fully capable of it.

That said, I believe that MU citizens are probably capable of romantic love, but they'd pobably see it as ultimate friendship.

Also, in Sahmad's tale, it does mention 'the woman he loves', but that may just be his mother or something. Romantic love doesn't have to be the love he's talking about. However, it's highly likely, due to the words used in describing this woman and her actions, that it is romantic love being mentioned.

[Ballom]

It's not that they can't be interpreted that way, but it's almost certainly going against authorial intent.

(Am... am I seriously discussing authorial intent in terms of non-canon romance in a toyline story? I think my English professor just had a migraine and he doesn't know why.)

Of course, authorial intent does not have to be restriced to only what the author consciously intended, if you're one of the people who believes in psychoanalytic criticism. Also, that last sentence was pretty funny.

~B~

Edited by Ballom, Mar 30 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[Applejack]

So what does everyone think about the whole Hewkii & Hafu and Jaller & Hahli romance/side story thing?
I thought it was just kinda distracting and out of place. Especially in the Bohrok animations.
What do all you think?

...Hewkii and Hafu?
...no.
He was into Macku. =P


I'd support romance in Bionicle.

[Ballom]

Hey guys, people can ship whoever they want.

~B~

[Triggons]

I never cared for romance in Bionicle; it seemed out of place and kind of detracted from the story's simplicity. :/

[VeoiTheRascal]

As far as I go with Romance, as long as it's written well and fits with the story without hampering it, I will enjoy it tremendously.
If it is none of the above, then no.


--VeOi ThE rAsCaL

Edited by VeoiTheRascal, Mar 31 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[The Inquisitive Automaton]

I think romance can exist purely on an emotional level in the Matoran Universe, so just seeming like a really strong friendship, but never actually delving into anything closer. The residents of Spherus Magna (Pre-Shattering) were more biological though, so their romance was a lot more real, hence Kiina's interest in Mata-Nui and their ability to reproduce.

That said, when has that EVER stopped shippers?

[Kumata]

i think love is for girls

they should of had more killing in Bionicle

[VeoiTheRascal]

i think love is for girls

they should of had more killing in Bionicle

I really hope that was sarcasm, mate.

[Booker DeWitt]

I think the romantic connections between Hewkii/Macku, Jaller/Takua and the more complicated relationships between those such as Tahu and Kopaka, as well as Axonn and Brutaka created an interesting subtext to the story. There wasn't much room for these to be properly expanded, but I think including these romantic connections was a good thing that added quite a bit to the story.

- Tilius

[Vandenreich]

Uhhhh Jaller and Takua ? I hope you mean Hahli ?

[Parazan]

Yes,there is. Matau crashing into buildings while Nokama was around.

[Booker DeWitt]

Uhhhh Jaller and Takua ? I hope you mean Hahli ?

I don't. Why would you be hoping I did? Did you see MoL? The whole film is basically about Jaller and Takua's 'close friendship'.

- Tilius

[Tekulo the WindWriter]

I saw the movie, though I payed more attention at the kohli scene where Jaller and Hahli were flirting with each other. XP (It's still canon in my book)

Though, those are interesting pairings to consider (I never really saw Axonn and Brutaka's relationship like that, though I can see why you'd think it would add something to the story). I never really thought of those before. It's still no LewaxOnua though.

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of Gales, Mar 31 2012 - 06:53 PM.

[Aanchir: Rachira of Time]

Well, Glatorian reproduce biologically, so the Kiina thing may be reasonable. But MU inhabitants love each other no more than your computer loves your NXT.

How dare you insinuate that what my computer and NXT have isn't real. >=(

Just kidding, I don't actually have an NXT. Still, I think comparing Matoran to non-sapient computers is a huge exaggeration. After all, whether or not Matoran have romance, they do have friendship, which is another thing unheard-of among real-world machines or nanotech. In a world where there is no "going the next step" beyond a close personal friendship, what really separates that from romance?

Saying "romance doesn't exist" isn't the same as saying anything vaguely romantic-looking in the story never happened. Just that there's no reason it would ever go any farther, and it's not like it would have anyway even if Greg hadn't been involved. LEGO themes with human characters have never had explicitly-in-love characters go from that stage to getting married and living together. Except, of course, licensed themes like Star Wars.

[Goldenguy]

Well, they're robots so they have no reporductory purposes. so romance is almost impossible, but , as the story has shown, other relationships can exist, such as the close FRIENDSHIP of most toa teams, of course this only applies to the guys from the MU, because as the glatorian and Agori do reproduce (I think) there is a biological purpose for love, but as the story was cut short, we couln't see much apart from a small Mata Nui/Kinaa, and thats over cause Mata Nui is sleeping..

[Roxy Lalonde]

Well, they're robots so they have no reporductory purposes. so romance is almost impossible

Except for the fact that romance and a need or ability to reproduce are two different concepts that can exist independently of each other.

That said, I think Bionicle could've definitely used a little more romance. I didn't pay much attention to Jaller and Hahli's relationship, but Macku's and Hewkii's in MNOG was pretty cute.

The entire story could've just used a little more love in general between characters.

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 01 2012 - 11:55 AM.
Remember to keep this appropriate for all ages. --bones

[Takatu]

Personally, I've just always had a hard time believing that people that became sapient enough to develop cultures, friendship, etc, even if it all was an accident, could develop pretty much the whole range of emotions EXCEPT love. I'm okay with there not being a whole lot of romance in the story, may have ended up taking away from some messages (Greg was pretty limited in the length of the books). But I never saw the harm in at least acknowledging that the Matoran could romantically love each other.

Besides, I pretty much never play the "shipping" game in fiction I like, but I think Jaller and Hahli are cute.

[Booker DeWitt]

I saw the movie, though I payed more attention at the kohli scene where Jaller and Hahli were flirting with each other. XP (It's still canon in my book)

Though, those are interesting pairings to consider (I never really saw Axonn and Brutaka's relationship like that, though I can see why you'd think it would add something to the story). I never really thought of those before. It's still no LewaxOnua though.

I put the flirting down to Jaller's own confusion about the situation - and by the end of the movie, he's realised where his heart really lies.

- Tilius

[Legolover-361]

Except for the fact that romance and a need or ability to reproduce are two different concepts that can exist independently of each other.

Not really. Romance comes from the need to reproduce; without the need to procreate, there would be no reason to have romance. On the other hand, close companionship originated with the need to band together to survive. While the characters of Bionicle would surely have had need to band together for the cause of survival, it's debatable whether their obvious lack of any need to procreate would have inhibited the development of romantic feelings.

I don't. Why would you be hoping I did? Did you see MoL? The whole film is basically about Jaller and Takua's 'close friendship'.

You'll notice, though, that Takua didn't seem at all upset by Jaller and Hahli's flirting; if anything, Takua acted somewhat supportive.

Anyway, this isn't the place to argue ships.

(JALLER X HAHLI FOR THE WIN.)

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 01 2012 - 11:57 AM.
Remember to keep this appropriate for all ages, and do not discuss real-world controversial subjects. --bones

[bonesiii]

Folks, I hoped not to need to say this, but please remember to keep this appropriate for all ages. I just had to edit a few posts for forgetting this rule. If this topic gets out of hand it will be closed.

[GSR]

You know, considering just how optimistic and harping on the values of friendship and unity the series could be at times, I feel like "romance isn't possible without an ulterior biological motive" doesn't really hold water in this context. And it's not like it'd be the only time the Toa/Matoran started doing things not directly linked to their programming.

Edited by GSR, Apr 01 2012 - 12:14 PM.