Major Confusions On Elements?

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#41 Tanu Toa of Earth

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Posted Jun 08 2012 - 03:36 PM

No, Toa of Fire can't control lava. If they can absorb enough heat to freeze water, though, I expect they could freeze lava into stone by absorbing heat from it.But in conjunction with a Toa of Earth or Stone, that makes sense. Hm, by that logic, I wonder if a Toa of Fire and a Toa of Ice together could control water.

Ehh... No, somehow it just doesn't seem right though. I can see Fire and Water controlling steam, and Air and Water making a thunderstorm, Air and Earth sandstorm, Ice, Water and Air snowstorm (Or Fire, Water and Air, if the Fire Toa is capable of absorbing heat on that scale), Earth and Fire making glass,, Stone/Rock and Fire controlling lava, etc., but really I doubt that Toa can control other elements, I think that even with combined power, they can only create or destroy them, and that only in certain cases. For instance, Fire/Ice can create or absorb water. 'Ice creates, Fire heats,' or 'Fire sucks heat, Ice absorbs the ice itself' respectively.But, also, couldn't Light and Shadow theoretically create an infinite loop of absorption?

#42 fishers64

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Posted Jun 08 2012 - 11:43 PM

But in conjunction with a Toa of Earth or Stone, that makes sense. Hm, by that logic, I wonder if a Toa of Fire and a Toa of Ice together could control water.

Make water, yes, but not control it. The Toa of Ice could control the water before it was heated, but not after. Lava is not another element - it's a combo between fire and earth, but water is another element, not a combo of ice and fire.

But, also, couldn't Light and Shadow theoretically create an infinite loop of absorption?

The two elements cancel each other out, so he who has the strongest will wins. The loop of absorption would not be infinite, because the focus required by the beings needed to maintain the elemental force cannot be maintained indefinatly.

#43 Tekulo the WindWriter

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Posted Jun 09 2012 - 08:52 PM

OOOH! OOOH! Question: According to Lewa, Sand + Fire = Glass.Say a toa of sand existed. Could this toa control glass or does that fall under stone/earth? Furthermore, would a toa of fire be needed in addition to stone/earth to control molten glass? For that matter does Lewa control all gasses or just air? Air in our world is composed of many different elements, mostly nitrogen and then oxygen. Does this mean he could manipulate separate gasses, or is it just the right mixture that is recognized as "air"? And as for Toa of Plant control, can they create new types of plants? Can they create sentient plants such as Morbuzahk? Considering plants require earth and water to grow, does this mean a toa of earth and water could concentrate on a plant to make it flourish? Add in a toa of the green to that; can that toa utilize the water and earth from the other toa to make a plant larger than the extent of his power alone? For that matter, do toa of earth have the ability to create different types of soils that could be suited for separate plants (such as sandy soil and grapes. Grapes don't like to be pampered; they struggle to survive and thus they grow in rocky soil as opposed to solid soil). Also, considering that whole "I throw dirt at you. Then I throw a rock. Feel the difference?" That question is far too vague to take seriously. Is the rock a pebble? Is a pebble too small a particle for the stone element to control? And for that matter, dirt could easily be compacted into a very hard object and it would still be earth and I'm sure it could hurt just as much as a rock. Why is this not addressed by the canon? That way of explaining things is just illogical. I throw a rock at you. Now I throw a chunk of ice at you. Feel the difference? No? Then they must be the same element by that same logic, correct (which technically they are because ice is a mineral and therefore should be able to be manipulated by a toa of stone. That's another question: Can a toa of stone work with ice? I wouldn't imagine absorbing it, but perhaps shattering a very dense and solid block? Seriously, that one gets me every time. =/). And now this brings me to psionics. Why can't they absorb their element? Heck, what exactly is their element? Brain waves? How is that measured?Speaking of waves, toa of sonics seem kinda strange to me as well. Sound is merely patterns through solids and air and perhaps liquid. Could Lewa/Pohatu/Gali not concentrate and create some type of sound through their element, or is that out of their hand? Not to mention, how does a toa of sound absorb sound? Wouldn't that be absorbing kinetic energy? Does he just take the energy out of the partical motion? That seems to be the most logical. My final question is the most baffling of all: If toa of water can create totally bodacious waves, then why don't they practice their trade with some totally gnarly surfin'? Chaa. (It's a legit question. Sorry for the rants, but all of these have baffled me for quite some time).

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of the Breeze, Jun 09 2012 - 08:56 PM.

#44 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 10 2012 - 01:17 PM

#45 Tekulo the WindWriter

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Posted Jun 12 2012 - 09:09 PM

Bonesiii, you deserve a medal or some sort of award for keeping up with me. XDThat actually does resolve many year-long questions of mine. Though, what I was getting at with number 3 was more along the lines of "could they create a new type of species of plant similar as to how Makuta create new species of rahi?" I could bring up the "But Bionicle physics doesn't necessarily work the same way as our physics" for number nine, but to save all forms of my non-existent sanity, I shall more or less take your word for it. XD (Though that does sound pretty interesting. I'm not much of a scientist, but I might just look into that. Thanks for bringing it up! Small words... I hope it's explained in small words... XD) Then again, when you put it that way, it does seem to make much more sense. ^^As far as 10 goes; ... There are no words to describe how much I like that answer. XD

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of the Breeze, Jun 13 2012 - 06:47 AM.

#46 Toa Lapaka

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Posted Jun 13 2012 - 12:41 AM

a couple questions just popped into minds, though I don't know if they all fit into this topic, about Toa of psionicsCan they read the minds of things like rahi and animals?don't they in some ways control electromagnetic waves since that's what brains emit and use to function?And since they can read both Spherus Magnian's and Matoran's, does that mean Matoran have organic minds?

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#47 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 13 2012 - 07:54 AM

I'm not sure about the first two questions, but as to whether Matoran brains are organic, it's not confirmed to be one way or the other. Greg said whether they are organic or mechanical, the way they work is based on Agori brains, which is why psionic powers of Matoran Universe beings also work on Spherus Magna beings (and the other way around, I guess).

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#48 darkslizer

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Posted Jun 13 2012 - 09:23 AM

Some of you may be asking about the difference between fire and plasma. As far as I can understand, the only difference is fire can control flame, as plasma cannot. It may be possible however, for a fire being to melt rock into lava, much like a being of plasma.

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#49 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 13 2012 - 01:18 PM

Though, what I was getting at with number 3 was more along the lines of "could they create a new type of species of plant similar as to how Makuta create new species of rahi?"

I see. Well, I'm not totally sure, but Greg was asked if they could make plants that involve uses of other elements or substances, especially poison, in response to the earlier Story Squad discussion about the unestablished Matoran traits. He confirmed that they could, and he didn't say anything like, "but only if they had already seen such a plant somewhere." So yes, it appears they can make new plants.But to be cautious, it may be that all they could do is create versions of types they had encountered already, or mix and match traits and abilities from what they've seen. Making something completely different from anything pre-existing does sound a bit overpowered.

I could bring up the "But Bionicle physics doesn't necessarily work the same way as our physics" for number nine, but to save all forms of my non-existent sanity, I shall more or less take your word for it. XD

Just to be clear, Greg confirmed that the SM matter is normal atoms and molecules like ours, so we do know that that part of physics applies. He also confirmed that protodermis is a molecule made of real-world atoms (of unestablish-able type). At the very least, it being easier to convert energy into energy than energy to matter is clearly true.

a couple questions just popped into minds, though I don't know if they all fit into this topic, about Toa of psionicsCan they read the minds of things like rahi and animals?

Yes, it was confirmed that Mask powers like Telekinesis and Mind Control are sub-powers under the element of psionics, and that Toa of Psionics can do all of that, and at several points in the books Toa Onewa used his Komau on Rahi. At one point it was remarked that the reason it wouldn't work on Vahki or Kralhi (robots) for example was that they had no minds, unlike Rahi (the Mavrah story). And mind-reading is also one of the Psionics sub-powers.

don't they in some ways control electromagnetic waves since that's what brains emit and use to function?

Well along the lines of my answer to Tekulo's question about waves up there, in some sense most elements control electromagnetism, as atoms are made of positively charged protons and negatively charged electrons. So all the physical elements involve electromagnetism, and Fire and Plasma include radiating heat. Light is electromagnetic energy in its purest form, and both Magnetism and Lightning also involve it. About the only element that doesn't (not directly anyways ) is Gravity. You could argue Shadow too, but it directly counters the purest form of em, so I'd say it counts too, as a sort of "anti-electromagnetism".But to be more specific, like I said to Tekulo above, I think it's likely there's a fictional Psionics energy much like there's cold energy and shadow energy in Bionicle. We don't know how their brains work; they might not use electromagnetism directly. But certainly they're made of atoms, so it's involved somehow.If we assume that their brains work like ours (whether biological or mechanical), with electromagnetism and chemical reactions, then this energy might indirectly affect it the same way Gravity will indirectly bend light or move atoms around. If so, then they wouldn't be actually controlling electromagnetism itself like a Toa of Magnetics.But really, we don't know, as this was an area the canon had only just begun to delve into when Greg stopped working on it. We might never know.

Some of you may be asking about the difference between fire and plasma. As far as I can understand, the only difference is fire can control flame, as plasma cannot. It may be possible however, for a fire being to melt rock into lava, much like a being of plasma.

And don't forget that Plasma is far hotter than fire, as said before. Yes, Tahu can melt rock into lava as shown in at least one animation, but it's a lot harder for him than for a Toa of Plasma. (And likewise, doing smaller safer things with heat is harder for a Toa of Plasma so they must be more sparing in their use of their element.)

#50 Anti Nui

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Posted Jun 17 2012 - 07:56 PM

Crystal cannot be controlled by any element, both on SM and in the MU, right? I know this was probably answered a thousand times already, but I just want to be sure.

#51 Flipz

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 12:45 AM

Since we're on the subject of Plasma, I'd like to ask: since we don't know for sure exactly how plasma works (i.e. is it true plasma like what the real-world sun is made of, or is it a "cartoonified" version as one person above put it), would it be implausible for a Toa of Plasma to be able to control lava? (Obviously, this would be under a "cartoonified" version of Plasma, real-world plasma is a far different thing than lava.) If not, what kind of Toa could control lava?

#52 High Voltage

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 03:55 AM

Since we're on the subject of Plasma, I'd like to ask: since we don't know for sure exactly how plasma works (i.e. is it true plasma like what the real-world sun is made of, or is it a "cartoonified" version as one person above put it), would it be implausible for a Toa of Plasma to be able to control lava? (Obviously, this would be under a "cartoonified" version of Plasma, real-world plasma is a far different thing than lava.) If not, what kind of Toa could control lava?

In the mask of light I recall Tahu and Onua controlling lava in conjunction and I think that is the only way to control it. If plasma is involved then I think it would require more concentration then fire due to how the don't actually control heat. And I believe Toa of Plasma would use the real world version. On a slightly related note, fire would probably be a side effect of plasma if flammable materials where nearby but the element itself is not related to flame. To explain it in real world physics, I guess you could think of it as fire being the control of heat energy and flame while plasma is control of superheated matter. Basically plasma is a physical substance while fire isn't. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is how I've always seen it.So while plasma is bought up, is plasma the control of a specific form of matter, just superheated matter in general, or a substance of its own which exists naturally called plasma?

Edited by High Voltage, Jun 18 2012 - 04:05 AM.

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#53 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 10:14 AM

Crystal cannot be controlled by any element, both on SM and in the MU, right? I know this was probably answered a thousand times already, but I just want to be sure.

Well, all volcanic rock is made of at least tiny crystals, and Toa of Stone can control it (once it's solid). Large-scale crystals should probably also count under Stone, but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure Greg was asked about this due to the popularity of the suggestion to canonize Crystal as its own element (which was turned down), so an answer should be findable.

Since we're on the subject of Plasma, I'd like to ask: since we don't know for sure exactly how plasma works (i.e. is it true plasma like what the real-world sun is made of, or is it a "cartoonified" version as one person above put it), would it be implausible for a Toa of Plasma to be able to control lava? (Obviously, this would be under a "cartoonified" version of Plasma, real-world plasma is a far different thing than lava.) If not, what kind of Toa could control lava?

But we do know exactly how Plasma works, or nearly so. What Greg confirmed to me personally is that Fire is the creation of (unidentified) flammable material plus just enough heat to make it react to the oxygen equivalent (which is probably now oxygen) in air, while Plasma is simply the creation of gasses that need not be flammable -- so could be normal Air for example -- that are superheated so that they turn to the fourth state of matter and give off heat and light without combustion.Now if the gas being given off was flammable by combustion it should react to the probable-oxygen at a lower heat, but Greg confirmed to me that Plasma does not make flames, but it's more like shooting a beam of glowing, superhot gas. So yes, it's Plasma like that in the sun.The one thing we don't know for sure is exactly what the gas is.And the lava thing was answered in more detail in previous posts here, but in short, the superheat part of Plasma would be able to melt existing rock to make, but not control, lava. A combo element of Plasma plus Stone could probably control lava, as well as some other combos (Earth plus Fire for example), but to my knowledge none of these have been directly shown in story with Toa. See previous posts.

In the mask of light I recall Tahu and Onua controlling lava in conjunction and I think that is the only way to control it.

I don't recall such a scene unless you're thinking of when Lewa made a whirlwind pick up sand, and Tahu melted the sand to glass. That's one of the only confirmed combo elements of Sand + Fire = Glass. (And Sand + Plasma could make glass too, although it might be more distorted or something due to the extreme heat.)

If plasma is involved then I think it would require more concentration then fire due to how the don't actually control heat.

No, it's the other way around. Plasma controls -more- heat than fire. It's Toa of Fire who would have a lot more trouble melting rock to lava. In-story Tahu has been shown doing a lightsaber -- sticking his firesword in rock and moving it around to cut it. That's about the extent of what would be easy for him. But Pahrak was shown instantly melting massive rocks; this is easier for users of Plasma due to the superheat.The reason Toa of Plasma need to make more heat is that their gas is not flammable. Fire combusts via a natural reaction with oxygen, so the combustion does the work to make the flames a plasma, while Toa of Plasma must superheat the gas directly without help from chemical reactions.

Basically plasma is a physical substance while fire isn't. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is how I've always seen it.

Both create both a physical substance and heat; Plasma makes more heat. See above in this post.

So while plasma is bought up, is plasma the control of a specific form of matter, just superheated matter in general, or a substance of its own which exists naturally called plasma?

Greg confirmed superheated gas specifically, so not superheated matter in general (which is why lava is not under its control). If by your third option you mean something at room temperature, no, neither Fire nor Plasma are laying around normally; they must be made under special circumstances just like the real world, though natural fires are possible (like forest fires), and the sun and stars in Bionicle are real-world stars filled with Plasma.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 18 2012 - 10:25 AM.

#54 Nuparu1995

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 12:19 PM

No, Toa of Fire can't control lava. If they can absorb enough heat to freeze water, though, I expect they could freeze lava into stone by absorbing heat from it.But in conjunction with a Toa of Earth or Stone, that makes sense. Hm, by that logic, I wonder if a Toa of Fire and a Toa of Ice together could control water.

No, but a Toa of Ice can turn water into ice and control it, I assume. But maybe a Toa of Fire could control the thermal energy within a given object, so...I dunno. But not with water, no.

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#55 darkslizer

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 02:38 PM

I know that nova blasts are mass explusions of a toa's respective element. I know a light nova blast is a blast of light, ice nova blasts freeze everything, fire nova blasts burn everything. I need to know what these Nova blasts would look like and or do:1. Stone2. Earth3. Psionics4. Iron5. Plasma (I don't know if its a blast of heat or plasma itself, or both.)6. Magnetism7. Gravity8. Sonics9. Plant Life(I know that a toa of Plant Life would be a Toa of "The Green" but that element name annoys the heck out of me, so I say plant life.)

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#56 Anti Nui

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 04:32 PM

^I would imagine that a Psionics Nova Blast would simply kill every sentient being with any sort of mind in the area instantly.I just thought of a question. Who would have more control over plant life: Toa Ignika or a Toa of the Green?

#57 Flipz

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 05:44 PM

Crystal cannot be controlled by any element, both on SM and in the MU, right? I know this was probably answered a thousand times already, but I just want to be sure.

Well, all volcanic rock is made of at least tiny crystals, and Toa of Stone can control it (once it's solid). Large-scale crystals should probably also count under Stone, but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure Greg was asked about this due to the popularity of the suggestion to canonize Crystal as its own element (which was turned down), so an answer should be findable.

Since we're on the subject of Plasma, I'd like to ask: since we don't know for sure exactly how plasma works (i.e. is it true plasma like what the real-world sun is made of, or is it a "cartoonified" version as one person above put it), would it be implausible for a Toa of Plasma to be able to control lava? (Obviously, this would be under a "cartoonified" version of Plasma, real-world plasma is a far different thing than lava.) If not, what kind of Toa could control lava?

But we do know exactly how Plasma works, or nearly so. What Greg confirmed to me personally is that Fire is the creation of (unidentified) flammable material plus just enough heat to make it react to the oxygen equivalent (which is probably now oxygen) in air, while Plasma is simply the creation of gasses that need not be flammable -- so could be normal Air for example -- that are superheated so that they turn to the fourth state of matter and give off heat and light without combustion.Now if the gas being given off was flammable by combustion it should react to the probable-oxygen at a lower heat, but Greg confirmed to me that Plasma does not make flames, but it's more like shooting a beam of glowing, superhot gas. So yes, it's Plasma like that in the sun.The one thing we don't know for sure is exactly what the gas is.And the lava thing was answered in more detail in previous posts here, but in short, the superheat part of Plasma would be able to melt existing rock to make, but not control, lava. A combo element of Plasma plus Stone could probably control lava, as well as some other combos (Earth plus Fire for example), but to my knowledge none of these have been directly shown in story with Toa. See previous posts.

Ah, that explains a lot, thanks!

I know that nova blasts are mass explusions of a toa's respective element. I know a light nova blast is a blast of light, ice nova blasts freeze everything, fire nova blasts burn everything. I need to know what these Nova blasts would look like and or do:5. Plasma (I don't know if its a blast of heat or plasma itself, or both.)6. Magnetism7. Gravity8. Sonics9. Plant Life(I know that a toa of Plant Life would be a Toa of "The Green" but that element name annoys the heck out of me, so I say plant life.)

5. I imagine it would be something like creating a new star from scratch, or else a letal explosion of plasma that melts everything in the area (user included)--perhaps like what happened to Pahrak-Kal?6. I picture it to be like what happened to Gahlok-Kal: a magnetic field that draws in huge amounts of shrapnel to fly at the target and tear it to shreds.7. Easy: black hole. At the risk of sounding repetitive, Nuhvok-Kal ended via one.8. Perhaps a huge explosion of sound that deafens everyone in the area? There are sonic grenades in the real world--I'd imagine it as an amped-up version of one of them.9. For some reason, I'm picturing an explosion of plant life suddenly springing up around the user, sort of like what the Ignika did to SM at the end of the comics, but on a smaller scale and ONLY for plant life.

#58 fishers64

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Posted Jun 18 2012 - 05:58 PM

Crystal cannot be controlled by any element, both on SM and in the MU, right? I know this was probably answered a thousand times already, but I just want to be sure.

Well, all volcanic rock is made of at least tiny crystals, and Toa of Stone can control it (once it's solid). Large-scale crystals should probably also count under Stone, but I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure Greg was asked about this due to the popularity of the suggestion to canonize Crystal as its own element (which was turned down), so an answer should be findable.

3. Could a Toa of Stone control crystal-like protodermis?

3. No

Link (Archive link logout warning)I thought so too, but apparently not. Looking back over what my search pulled up, there was some speculation that crystal was a combo of six Toa Elements - that "Toa seal" material. Nothing conclusive, though.

In the mask of light I recall Tahu and Onua controlling lava in conjunction and I think that is the only way to control it.

I don't recall such a scene unless you're thinking of when Lewa made a whirlwind pick up sand, and Tahu melted the sand to glass. That's one of the only confirmed combo elements of Sand + Fire = Glass. (And Sand + Plasma could make glass too, although it might be more distorted or something due to the extreme heat.)

Uniting their powers, the Toa defeat the Rahkshi: Guurahk, Panrahk, and Lerahk are trapped in glass, while Vorahk and Kurahk are frozen after being showered with lava.

I clearly recall the scene of Tahu leaping in on Onua's suspended dirt thing and making lava out of it, but not that the two actually controlled the stuff. That's debatable - the animation software makes it look like that, but it could just be gravity pulling the liquid back to earth.

#59 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 19 2012 - 09:28 AM

Thanks, fishers. Yeah, I do remember that scene now.

I know that nova blasts are mass explusions of a toa's respective element. I know a light nova blast is a blast of light, ice nova blasts freeze everything, fire nova blasts burn everything. I need to know what these Nova blasts would look like and or do:1. Stone2. Earth3. Psionics4. Iron5. Plasma (I don't know if its a blast of heat or plasma itself, or both.)6. Magnetism7. Gravity8. Sonics9. Plant Life(I know that a toa of Plant Life would be a Toa of "The Green" but that element name annoys the heck out of me, so I say plant life.)

Stone - I can think of two main options as I've said in other topics; first, it creates an wave of solidifying rock that encases everything (gently, but it could still suffocate everything). Or, scarier/cooler IMO, it creates a constantly growing mass of pebbles, rocks, boulders that flood everything, rolling over each other, crushing everything in their path... I lean strongly towards the second. :PEarth -- pretty obvious; the dirt version of option two for Stone. A massive expanding flood of earth, like an earth geyser, of massive proportions.Psionics -- Anti-Nui's option makes sense. Since telekinesis is involved I'd like to think it would push everything away at high speed, so it wouldn't instantly kill everybody but you'd have to work very hard to survive it, and some mental craziness could be involved too. More fun that way then just "everybody dies."Iron -- Well, I'm tempted to think the two Stone options, although not sure if pieces of metal make sense. It tends to hold together rather than crumble like rock. Maybe even a third option since metal can bend; a pushing-outward single mass of metal that will push things aside instead of encasing them.Plasma, Magnetism, Gravity, Sonics, Plant Life -- agree with Flipz.And no, "The Green" is a nickname Greg prefers for some reason, there's no reason we have to use it. (I agree with you on that. ) The actual element name is Plant Life, or Plants, or Jungle (from SM).

^I would imagine that a Psionics Nova Blast would simply kill every sentient being with any sort of mind in the area instantly.I just thought of a question. Who would have more control over plant life: Toa Ignika or a Toa of the Green?

Excellent question. From what we've seen in the story, the Legendary power of Life means control over living beings in the sense of having brains (even tiny ones like Gadunka), so the answer is probably Toa of Plants. That said, Ignika can turn plants into beings with minds and then do what it wants with it so it basically depends on what the rules of "controlling plant life" are.Besides, in any direct contest the Ignika could also curse the Toa... but that's cheating so yeah.

#60 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 19 2012 - 01:03 PM

9. For some reason, I'm picturing an explosion of plant life suddenly springing up around the user, sort of like what the Ignika did to SM at the end of the comics, but on a smaller scale and ONLY for plant life.

Except, I'd like to point out, it would be destructive instead of peaceful terraforming. The sudden plant growth would probably tear apart and smother obstacles.

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#61 darkslizer

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Posted Jun 20 2012 - 04:08 PM

Thanks, fishers. Yeah, I do remember that scene now.

I know that nova blasts are mass explusions of a toa's respective element. I know a light nova blast is a blast of light, ice nova blasts freeze everything, fire nova blasts burn everything. I need to know what these Nova blasts would look like and or do:1. Stone2. Earth3. Psionics4. Iron5. Plasma (I don't know if its a blast of heat or plasma itself, or both.)6. Magnetism7. Gravity8. Sonics9. Plant Life(I know that a toa of Plant Life would be a Toa of "The Green" but that element name annoys the heck out of me, so I say plant life.)

Stone - I can think of two main options as I've said in other topics; first, it creates an wave of solidifying rock that encases everything (gently, but it could still suffocate everything). Or, scarier/cooler IMO, it creates a constantly growing mass of pebbles, rocks, boulders that flood everything, rolling over each other, crushing everything in their path... I lean strongly towards the second. :PEarth -- pretty obvious; the dirt version of option two for Stone. A massive expanding flood of earth, like an earth geyser, of massive proportions.Psionics -- Anti-Nui's option makes sense. Since telekinesis is involved I'd like to think it would push everything away at high speed, so it wouldn't instantly kill everybody but you'd have to work very hard to survive it, and some mental craziness could be involved too. More fun that way then just "everybody dies."Iron -- Well, I'm tempted to think the two Stone options, although not sure if pieces of metal make sense. It tends to hold together rather than crumble like rock. Maybe even a third option since metal can bend; a pushing-outward single mass of metal that will push things aside instead of encasing them.Plasma, Magnetism, Gravity, Sonics, Plant Life -- agree with Flipz.And no, "The Green" is a nickname Greg prefers for some reason, there's no reason we have to use it. (I agree with you on that. ) The actual element name is Plant Life, or Plants, or Jungle (from SM).

^I would imagine that a Psionics Nova Blast would simply kill every sentient being with any sort of mind in the area instantly.I just thought of a question. Who would have more control over plant life: Toa Ignika or a Toa of the Green?

Excellent question. From what we've seen in the story, the Legendary power of Life means control over living beings in the sense of having brains (even tiny ones like Gadunka), so the answer is probably Toa of Plants. That said, Ignika can turn plants into beings with minds and then do what it wants with it so it basically depends on what the rules of "controlling plant life" are.Besides, in any direct contest the Ignika could also curse the Toa... but that's cheating so yeah.

I would think, on first instinct, that a Toa of Plant Life would have greater ability over plants. (That sentence would sound so stupid if not for the context.) But, considering that Toa Ignika does wear the Mask of Life, I would think that it could control, to an extent, anything living. Possibly it could only control the organic matter in a biomechanical being, like a Toa or Matoran. Since plants, as far as I can tell in Bionicle, are completely organic. So I would expect that Ignika would rule over a Toa of Plant Life.I believe that a Psionics nova blast would be a burst of material psychic energy, if a Toa of Psionics could create that. But... I have no proof, so whatevs!!!

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#62 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 20 2012 - 05:02 PM

The Ignika has to be able to control the mechanical sides too, or it couldn't have done things like enlarging Gadunka or transforming the Inika to Mahri. The metal parts were changed as well as the biological.Also, I was thinking earlier that the Ignika had to have minds to control but the whole SM terraforming incident disproves that... I'm thinking it can do three main things:1) Turn any matter living.2) Transform living things.3) Turn living things into dead things (kill).So the one thing Toa of Plants should be able to do that the Ignika can't is make new plants right from elemental energy. The Ignika's creation of plants on SM would have to be something like turning parts of the sand and rock into living sand and rock, then transforming them into seeds and making them rapidly transform sand and rock into roots and grow upward to form trees, bushes, etc.In other words it can only transform matter, not make new matter. But Toa (of material elements) can make new matter.Still, Ignika can control the Toa himself so Life still wins in any realistic contest lol.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 20 2012 - 05:03 PM.

#63 Nuparu1995

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Posted Jun 20 2012 - 05:32 PM

So Toa of the Green can only manipulate existing plant matter, then?
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#64 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 20 2012 - 05:50 PM

So Toa of the Green can only manipulate existing plant matter, then?

No, they can make new plant matter from their elemental energy same as any Toa can make their element. And only they can do this; Ignika must transform existing matter into plants to make new plants, is what I'm theorizing. Toa can make new plants without any matter at all.Of course, I still dunno what to think of whether, given an existing plant, Ignika or a Toa would have more control over it. Maybe it would be like a power version of matched arm wrestling lol where the first to waver in willpower loses. But again, more likely if such a contest did happen for some strange reason, Ignika would cheat by cursing the Toa, or turning the plant to a Rahi. Maybe it would turn the Toa into a Rahi lol.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 20 2012 - 05:54 PM.

#65 Nuparu1995

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Posted Jun 20 2012 - 07:54 PM

So Toa of the Green can only manipulate existing plant matter, then?

No, they can make new plant matter from their elemental energy same as any Toa can make their element. And only they can do this; Ignika must transform existing matter into plants to make new plants, is what I'm theorizing. Toa can make new plants without any matter at all.Of course, I still dunno what to think of whether, given an existing plant, Ignika or a Toa would have more control over it. Maybe it would be like a power version of matched arm wrestling lol where the first to waver in willpower loses. But again, more likely if such a contest did happen for some strange reason, Ignika would cheat by cursing the Toa, or turning the plant to a Rahi. Maybe it would turn the Toa into a Rahi lol.

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#66 fishers64

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Posted Jun 20 2012 - 09:56 PM

The Ignika has to be able to control the mechanical sides too, or it couldn't have done things like enlarging Gadunka or transforming the Inika to Mahri. The metal parts were changed as well as the biological.Also, I was thinking earlier that the Ignika had to have minds to control but the whole SM terraforming incident disproves that... I'm thinking it can do three main things:1) Turn any matter living.2) Transform living things.3) Turn living things into dead things (kill).

Sorry, but I can't resist - the Ignika also can transform things that once were living and change their shape and function. (I'm thinking of the time Mata Nui changed the Glatorian tools' form and function.)This means, since we are talking about a hypothetical contest, that the Ignika could change the shape of dead plants as well as living plants. (The Ignika wins against any Toa anyway. No wonder all the bad guys wanted it.)

#67 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 03:42 PM

I thought I knew the answer to this, but I guess I forgot...Can Toa of Earth control sand?

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#68 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 04:34 PM

I thought I knew the answer to this, but I guess I forgot...Can Toa of Earth control sand?

No, sand is a separate Bara Magna element, between Earth and Stone in particle size. Incidently, Sand might be a combo element between those two in the Matoran Universe, though I don't think it was ever confirmed.

#69 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 05:08 PM

Hmm, what about rock powder? Does that count as Earth, for elemental control?

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#70 fishers64

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 05:19 PM

Hmm, what about rock powder? Does that count as Earth, for elemental control?

Rocks broken up into chunks would be under stone, even if the pieces were really small. Sand is produced by erosion of rock and molding of water, so it depends on how small the rock parts are in the powder.

#71 Anti Nui

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 07:36 PM

I thought I knew the answer to this, but I guess I forgot...Can Toa of Earth control sand?

No, sand is a separate Bara Magna element, between Earth and Stone in particle size. Incidently, Sand might be a combo element between those two in the Matoran Universe, though I don't think it was ever confirmed.

I think you might be thinking of that combo that was listed on BS01 where it said that Air and Fire could make glass, if sand was present. As far as I remember with GregF and his answers, no being or beings inside the MU had direct elemental control over Sand.Well, except for Devastator and Kranua, though I guess they don't really count because presumably Sand isn't considered elemental in the MU.

Edited by Anti Nui, Jun 23 2012 - 07:38 PM.

#72 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 08:00 PM

In those two cases, it's turning your body into sand, not elemental control of sand. But my question still stands: If stone was ground up into very fine powder, would it count as Earth, or still be Sand and so not controllable by a Toa?Also, can Toa of Earth make earthquakes on any sort of solid ground, including glaciers and sand dunes? I'm not sure if earthquakes are a special elemental ability they can cause anywhere there's something to quake, or if they can only do it over Earth that they can normally control.

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#73 Anti Nui

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Posted Jun 23 2012 - 09:45 PM

In those two cases, it's turning your body into sand, not elemental control of sand.

Yes, but elemental beings (and guys that can turn into them) are generally considered to have elemental powers, even if it means they only manipulate the element that makes up their body. But like I said, they probably don't count anyway, so it doesn't matter.Also, on the BS01 Earth page it lists the earthquake ability under "Manipulating earth and soil," so that would make me think that they can only do it with earth, and not ice.

#74 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 24 2012 - 11:51 AM

I thought I knew the answer to this, but I guess I forgot...Can Toa of Earth control sand?

No, sand is a separate Bara Magna element, between Earth and Stone in particle size. Incidently, Sand might be a combo element between those two in the Matoran Universe, though I don't think it was ever confirmed.

I think you might be thinking of that combo that was listed on BS01 where it said that Air and Fire could make glass, if sand was present. As far as I remember with GregF and his answers, no being or beings inside the MU had direct elemental control over Sand.Well, except for Devastator and Kranua, though I guess they don't really count because presumably Sand isn't considered elemental in the MU.

No, that combo is confirmed. I'm talking about who in the MU could control sand itself. If anyone it would probably be Stone and Earth, but this was never confirmed. Is what I'm saying. .I do think turning yourself into sand and moving around could be elemental control over sand. In some stories including the Expanded Multiverse, there's a power called Self-Transmutation; the ability to turn yourself into your element. Once in that element, you can control what is now you and move around. Could be seen as a mix between a sub-power of sand (not granting control of other sand) and transformation.Iron Toa, it's all about particle size. If the particles were larger than Sand, it would be Stone's control. The size of sand, neither Earth nor Stone would control it (except maybe working together), but rather the Element Lord of Sand could. If it was smaller than sand it would count as Earth. (It's not ALL about particle size, I generalize. Hey that rhymes.)Toa of Earth can make earthquakes by two methods:1) If there is a layer of earth already present under the sand or ice or whatever, they could cause it to shake.2) They could make new Earth under the sand, in cracks of ice, etc. and shake that.Either way it would be less of a quake than if they were surrounded by a deep earthscape.

#75 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 24 2012 - 12:07 PM

So very fine rock particles also count as Earth. Thanks, Bonesiii.

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#76 High Voltage

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Posted Jun 26 2012 - 12:44 PM

If plasma is involved then I think it would require more concentration then fire due to how the don't actually control heat.

No, it's the other way around. Plasma controls -more- heat than fire. It's Toa of Fire who would have a lot more trouble melting rock to lava. In-story Tahu has been shown doing a lightsaber -- sticking his firesword in rock and moving it around to cut it. That's about the extent of what would be easy for him. But Pahrak was shown instantly melting massive rocks; this is easier for users of Plasma due to the superheat.The reason Toa of Plasma need to make more heat is that their gas is not flammable. Fire combusts via a natural reaction with oxygen, so the combustion does the work to make the flames a plasma, while Toa of Plasma must superheat the gas directly without help from chemical reactions.

Basically plasma is a physical substance while fire isn't. Correct me if I'm wrong but that is how I've always seen it.

Both create both a physical substance and heat; Plasma makes more heat. See above in this post.

So while plasma is bought up, is plasma the control of a specific form of matter, just superheated matter in general, or a substance of its own which exists naturally called plasma?

Greg confirmed superheated gas specifically, so not superheated matter in general (which is why lava is not under its control). If by your third option you mean something at room temperature, no, neither Fire nor Plasma are laying around normally; they must be made under special circumstances just like the real world, though natural fires are possible (like forest fires), and the sun and stars in Bionicle are real-world stars filled with Plasma.

Thanks, learned some things from that. A lot of what I said was based on the assumption that control over heat was restricted to fire, so plasma just had control over plasma. I think I posed my question a little clumsily, I meant something along the lines of 'In the bionicle universe, could any gas existing at room temperature be turned into elementally-controlled plasma, could any form of matter if sufficiently heated be turned into elementally-controlled plasma, or is elementally-controlled plasma a specific substance called plasma which is a completely separate substance from anything else?'. I have an idea of what plasma is but I'm still a little hazy on what is going on with that, so if anyone could please clarify then that would be good.And, while I am reluctant to bring up the whole lava thing as I may repeat stuff others said, I searched for the scene and, like fischers64 said, due to how the rocks were already moving downwards and how they lose all direction when they turn into lava seems to indicate that while earth and fire combined certainly can create lava, they are probably not able to control it. Based on what you said that greg said, plasma would follow the same rules. So judging on all the evidence that is presented, it would be unlikely for lava to be able to be controlled. Earth and stone lose the power over it the instant it turns to liquid, fire and plasma can't control it as they control a fuel (fire) or really hot gas (plasma) (which both wouldn't be very useful) and heat (which, while giving the ability to create lava from previously created rock, would not allow control over its movement). As earth or stone lose the control over it in that moment, then it couldn't be applicable as a combo element between earth/stone and fire/plasma either. I know you said before that molten glass could be controlled in combination, but if you think about it that really doesn't make sense. As there are substances that can't be controlled by elements, could we rule out molten substances as something that can be controlled by elements by any means? It would just make sense.Seperate questions: 1. Could a toa of gravity increase the gravity of something in a single point so that objects will be attracted to that point instead of spherus magna?2. If a toa of gravity created a black hole through a nova blast, would that black hole ever go away? Because if not then they definitely shouldn't do any nova blasts.And 3. Why is gravity so ridiculously OP?

Edited by High Voltage, Jun 26 2012 - 12:56 PM.

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#77 Flipz

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Posted Jun 26 2012 - 01:14 PM

Hmm, here's an interesting thought:If High Voltage is right and lava (and other molten substances) can't be directly controlled by elemental powers, there IS another possibility: gravity can sort-of control it. Let me explain:Let's say a fire or plasma toa and an earth or stone toa combine powers, creating lava. (We already know that toa can produce near-infinite streams of their element, so we have a near-infinite source of new lava through combination.) A Toa of Gravity can use their elemental power to move the lava around (i.e. through HV's Question 1 above), and, presumably, a Toa of Ice could solidify the lava once again. If there was a need to create some sort of lava-structure, then another toa of stone or a toa of iron could produce a framework for the structure, and the Toa of Gravity could increase that framework's gravity such that the lava is drawn more to the framework than to the normal source of gravity.Does that make sense, or am I just crazy?

#78 bonesiii

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Posted Jun 26 2012 - 01:33 PM

As there are substances that can't be controlled by elements, could we rule out molten substances as something that can be controlled by elements by any means?

We can't absolutely rule it out; we just don't know either way. The one thing we know for sure is that the combo elements of Storm (Air + Water) was controlled. It seems highly unlikely this is the only combo that has control.The reason Tahu and Lewa couldn't control the Glass was that neither controlled Sand. If an Element Lord of Sand and Fire (or Toa of Fire, or Plasma) were there, they probably could have controlled the glass.As for lava, again, Plasma contains both the gas and the superheat. It seems to me that clearly a Toa of Stone/Earth and Plasma working together should be able to control it like Gali and Lewa could control the storm. Possibly Fire would not simply because it isn't enough heat, but maybe to a lesser extent. The only reason we don't consider it absolutely certain is that it's an extrapolation from other confirmed facts rather than a confirmed fact itself, so it's technically just a theory. But a very likely one.1) Yes.2) Yes; Nuhvok Kal's black hole dissipated almost immediately. The difference between this kind of black hole and a real-world one is that the real-world ones actually contain enough mass to generate that much gravity. The Kal, or a Nova-ed Toa of Gravity, artificially make gravity from elemental energy. As soon as the generator of this extra gravity -- the Toa or Kal -- is crushed, the extra gravity stops being made, and the black hole ends.Hypothetically, a vast army of Gravity Toa working together might be able to make a singularity that wouldn't kill them instantly, and could eat up enough mass (more than a normal star) over time to hold together on its own, but this would be incredibly difficult.3) Isn't that "begging the question"? First you need to explain why you think it's overpowered. I don't think it's overpowered. The level of power is the same as with all the other elements. It's just one of those elements that can easily move things around, which makes some people think of it as more powerful. But really it depends on the circumstances.Flipz, yes, but I think the amount of specific control of movement is very limited with Gravity. You're not controlling the motion directly; you're controlling a field of energy which indirectly pulls things along. That's why it's far easier for Gravity beings to just increase or decrease the level of normal gravity, making things feel heavier or float away. Portrayals of them moving things sideways are very rare and for good reason.But a Toa of Psionics should be able to do that better, with their telekinesis subpower. This would also be limited, though, by extreme focus. Perhaps far more so for a liquid.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 26 2012 - 02:08 PM.

#79 fishers64

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Posted Jun 26 2012 - 01:33 PM

Thanks, learned some things from that. A lot of what I said was based on the assumption that control over heat was restricted to fire, so plasma just had control over plasma. I think I posed my question a little clumsily, I meant something along the lines of 'In the bionicle universe, could any gas existing at room temperature be turned into elementally-controlled plasma, could any form of matter if sufficiently heated be turned into elementally-controlled plasma, or is elementally-controlled plasma a specific substance called plasma which is a completely separate substance from anything else?'. I have an idea of what plasma is but I'm still a little hazy on what is going on with that, so if anyone could please clarify then that would be good.

Any form of matter, if sufficiently heated, can change from is current form to a gas which can be heated to form plasma; any gas can be superheated to form plasma, and plasma is indeed a specific substance called plasma which is separate from everything else. All plasma in the Bionicle universe can be elementally controlled be Toa of Plasma or whatever has that power. If that doesn't make any sense, try this - it is possible to heat up a gas and make it plasma, and it is possible to heat up any substance into a gas and heat the resulting gas into plasma, which can be controlled elementally. However, the plasma which it is now is not the same as what it was before, and the elemental control of plasma works regardless of what was heated to make the plasma.Hope that helps.

Seperate questions: 1. Could a toa of gravity increase the gravity of something in a single point so that objects will be attracted to that point instead of spherus magna?2. If a toa of gravity created a black hole through a nova blast, would that black hole ever go away? Because if not then they definitely shouldn't do any nova blasts.And 3. Why is gravity so ridiculously OP?

1. Gravity is the force of attraction between two objects of matter. So if a Toa had an object at the point you speak of, yes, but otherwise no. 2. I'm going to say yes, when the Toa runs out of power. Gali's water blast didn't last for eternity. 3. Because otherwise we will all float off into space. :)Edit: ninja'd by bonesiii. Mostly, anyway. :)Also, a question of my own: Do Toa of Plasma have resistance to heat, or just their element? For example, if a Toa of Plasma was stuck in a desert with hot sun, would they have the resistance to it that a Toa of Fire has?

Edited by fishers64, Jun 26 2012 - 01:42 PM.

#80 The Iron Toa

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Posted Jun 26 2012 - 01:45 PM

Makes sense, except for one thing I'm not clear on. In some animations, we've seen Nuhvok-Kal using his powers to move boulders around as if he had telekinesis. Can Toa of Gravity do this? I'd think gravity would only directly make things move up and down. I could also expect it to be able to alter an object's inertia, so that it's easier to be pushed around, but can they make gravity pull objects to the side or something?EDIT: Nevermind, that got answered just before I posted.As to Fisher's question, we don't know what the innate elemental ability of Plasma is (like heat resistant for Ta-Matoran). But I'd expect a Toa of Plasma, or at least an experienced one, would get used to the heat of his element just by being exposed to it over time.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Jun 26 2012 - 01:52 PM.

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