323 replies to this topic

[bonesiii]

If that doesn't make any sense, try this - it is possible to heat up a gas and make it plasma, and it is possible to heat up any substance into a gas and heat the resulting gas into plasma, which can be controlled elementally.

While this is true, just to be clear, some substances like metal and rock can't be turned to gas or plasma by Toa of Plasma since the temperature required is just too much; their vaporization points are too high. Also, chemical reaction "plasma" is not included since that's Fire.

1. Gravity is the force of attraction between two objects of matter. So if a Toa had an object at the point you speak of, yes, but otherwise no.

Gravity is an energy, which is normally emitted in tiny amounts by matter, but this fact doesn't mean Toa can only make gravity energy in an object. They could direct a beam of gravity elemental energy to a random point in air or space, and convert the EE into gravitons there, making that non-object point the center that things would be attracted to (as long as it overpowers existing sources like SM). Really, whether there is an object there or not is of no importance as either way they are sending a beam of EE there and converting it to make new gravitons.

Also, a question of my own: Do Toa of Plasma have resistance to heat, or just their element? For example, if a Toa of Plasma was stuck in a desert with hot sun, would they have the resistance to it that a Toa of Fire has?

Well I should point out that the associated Matoran trait was not established; there was a Story Squad project to establish them before the downtime, but it wasn't finished before then, and Greg disappeared, so it probably won't be finished. Whatever might have been established for that might affect this question.

But I would say it has to be the superheat the Toa are resistant to, otherwise using their element normally should be incredibly dangerous. And I see no reason why the resistance could specify just heat from their element; heat is heat. I could be wrong now. But I don't think so.

Makes sense, except for one thing I'm not clear on. In some animations, we've seen Nuhvok-Kal using his powers to move boulders around as if he had telekinesis. Can Toa of Gravity do this? I'd think gravity would only directly make things move up and down. I could also expect it to be able to alter an object's inertia, so that it's easier to be pushed around, but can they make gravity pull objects to the side or something?

EDIT: Nevermind, that got answered just before I posted.

Well I wanna comment on that anyways, mostly because it's something I had planned to say in my above post, but forgot. Have you ever tried moving something around with a magnet, without allowing the something to actually attach to the magnet? It's almost impossible. An artificial gravity field strong enough to move objects sideways (so about at a moon's strength or more) with the ability to quickly start and stop it should be very much like the magnet example. It would be hard not to have the object shoot sideways at high speed and move out of the field.

The one instance of moving things sideways I recall was in a promo of Nuvhok-Kal. He moved some rocks sideways, after lifting them, then set them down. The amount of focus needed to do just that, IMO, would be incredible. As far as I recall all other instances are of increasing or lessening the normal direction of gravity. Besides, of course, the nova-blast black hole he ended up with moved different parts of him up, down, in-left, in-right, etc. So clearly, it CAN be done, but that doesn't make it easy.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 26 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

I thought Toa of Plasma could turn anything into plasma if they applied enough elemental energy to it.

[bonesiii]

Well, perhaps, but the question is if they have enough EE or can use that much at one time, besides a self-destructing nova blast.

[The Iron Toa]

That reminds me, it seems Nova Blasts release power that dwarfs what Toa usually use in fights. Can they only use this much of their power at once because it's not focused?

[bonesiii]

That seems correct, yes. They just release all their elemental energy at once, converting it all into their element. Normally they have to channel relatively small amounts with conscious focus on what it does (made easier with a Toa Tool). Although the amount in normal use can vary it never seems to be able to go anywhere near 100%. Probably because it's just impossible for a Toa to consciously control that much; the more there is, the more complicated it gets.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 26 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Makes sense. This isn't the best analogy, but I think of normal elemental use as like adjusting a valve that requires care to open just the right amount, while a Nova Blast is like making the water tank explode.

[bonesiii]

That's a good analogy, yeah. To add to it, if that valve is attached to a hose that a firefighter is using strategically to put out a fire, that's like normal use, but an exploding water tank gives very little control (and can be fatal heh).

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 26 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[High Voltage]

Hmm, here's an interesting thought:

If High Voltage is right and lava (and other molten substances) can't be directly controlled by elemental powers, there IS another possibility: gravity can sort-of control it. Let me explain:

Let's say a fire or plasma toa and an earth or stone toa combine powers, creating lava. (We already know that toa can produce near-infinite streams of their element, so we have a near-infinite source of new lava through combination.) A Toa of Gravity can use their elemental power to move the lava around (i.e. through HV's Question 1 above), and, presumably, a Toa of Ice could solidify the lava once again. If there was a need to create some sort of lava-structure, then another toa of stone or a toa of iron could produce a framework for the structure, and the Toa of Gravity could increase that framework's gravity such that the lava is drawn more to the framework than to the normal source of gravity.

Does that make sense, or am I just crazy?

I was going to suggest using gravity but that's not really controlling the lava directly, like if a toa of gravity would move a stone, he isn't technically controlling the element of stone. Using gravity or psionics I suppose you could control lava indirectly.

And bonesii, you ask why gravity is OP but right above that you say that they can hypothetically create the full blown kind of black hole . Gravity can crush you, levitate you, have indirect control over every element if the element is present except sonics, magnetism, light, shadow, psionics or lightning, and then move non-elemental substances. Oh yeah, they can fly too. It's a relief that one can't create our kind of black hole by himself, and it would take a lot of both toa and elemental power to do so.

I still say that once the rock is made into lava, the earth/stone toa loses control over it, therefore meaning that it can't be controlled. The reasoning for lava being a combo element between earth/stone and fire/plasma goes 'lava is, at its core, really hot rock. So the fire/plasma would just heat up the rock and the earth/stone would move it along.' Basically 'rock + heat = lava'. And this is true, so lava can be created in this way. However it cannot and would not be controlled any further because this equation leaves the earth/stone toa to control and provide all the material, while the fire/plasma toa just contribute heat. Regardless of how hot it is, the material is liquid earth or stone. This creates an issue because toa of earth and stone only control solids, and since fire/plasma only contributes heat to the equation (not that either of the matter they control would help), once the rock crosses the barrier between really hot rock and lava, it is a liquid which would then fall to the ground because it is obviously not a solid. So the theory of earth/stone + fire/plasma = controllable lava is one that doesn't make sense when thought about.

Also, lewa and gali probably controlled the storm by altering the atmospheric conditions to create the correct conditions for what they wanted, something that is worth noting is that this stays faithful to the restrictions of both elements, unlike lava.

And fischer, so basically it is control over the state of matter we call plasma, correct? Bonesii said something about a gas which they control which they have to make really hot through their control of heat to use, so that's why I asked. And plasmatoran (that is the most entertaining word to type) would definitely have resistance to heat, as it stands to reason that their habitat of choice would be very hot places if they control greater amounts of heat than fire.

Something this brings up: where would matoran of lightning, magnetism, gravity or psionics live?

Edited by High Voltage, Jun 27 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[fishers64]

1. Gravity is the force of attraction between two objects of matter. So if a Toa had an object at the point you speak of, yes, but otherwise no.

Gravity is an energy, which is normally emitted in tiny amounts by matter, but this fact doesn't mean Toa can only make gravity energy in an object. They could direct a beam of gravity elemental energy to a random point in air or space, and convert the EE into gravitons there, making that non-object point the center that things would be attracted to (as long as it overpowers existing sources like SM). Really, whether there is an object there or not is of no importance as either way they are sending a beam of EE there and converting it to make new gravitons.

So Toa of Gravity have the power to make gravitational forces independent of matter, which is what that force is based on? I thought the EE of gravity controlled gravitational forces emitted by other things, not created gravity (or destroyed it)...interesting.

Plasma stuff below.

And fischer, so basically it is control over the state of matter we call plasma, correct?  Bonesii said something about a gas which they control which they have to make really hot through their control of heat to use, so that's why I asked.  And plasmatoran (that is the most entertaining word to type) would definitely have resistance to heat, as it stands to reason that their habitat of choice would be very hot places if they control greater amounts of heat than fire.  

Something this brings up: where would matoran of lightning, magnetism, gravity or psionics live?

Yes, the power of Plasma is controlling the state of matter known as Plasma.

It's just an idea that Toa or Matoran of Plasma would have resistance to superheat but not to lower forms of heat...I see that it's still a question open to interpretation, though. (Now that I think of it, the idea does seem a little silly).

And I don't think it was estabilished fully where these Matoran live, other than in the "chest" region of the Southern and Northern continents. Not in Metru Nui. 

[High Voltage]

Hmmmm... Maybe. I can see it through how they don't have that precise control over heat, but it still seems like it would make more sense if they were just resistant to heat. And I know they don't live in metru-nui, what I was wondering is what type of environment they would live in. Like how onu-matoran live underground or how ta-matoran live in hot places.

[fishers64]

Hmmmm... Maybe. I can see it through how they don't have that precise control over heat, but it still seems like it would make more sense if they were just resistant to heat. And I know they don't live in metru-nui, what I was wondering is what type of environment they would live in. Like how onu-matoran live underground or how ta-matoran live in hot places.

I don't think that was confirmed, either, so the best thing is to use one's imagination. I'll give it a try, though.

Lightening - probably in a place with lots of electricity. I tend to go with them living in a place with lots of electrical conduits with lightening crackling in between - like the Hakann game in the Piraka animations of 2006.

Magnetism - Since there is magnetic rock IRL, probably somewhere with lots of the Bionicle equivalent. I kinda see it as them riding magnetic forces around when they're not working.

Gravity - I made a theory once that Matoran of Gravity would live somewhere where they can adjust the gravity systems of the robot to make sure that other Matoran don't feel any change, despite the fluctuating gravity outside the robot (weightlessness, other planet's gravity, etc.) Thus, they would be in a place where they could sense the change and respond to it.

Psionics - Probably in big cities or trading ports. Their area of expertise seems to be the minds of the MU inhabitants themselves, so I'm guessing they would be somewhere where they can interact with a lot of them.

This is just what I think on this subject, however. I recall some Matoran (either Gravity or Magnetism) were confirmed to live upside down - not sure if that was right or not...

[Visaru]

And bonesii, you ask why gravity is OP but right above that you say that they can hypothetically create the full blown kind of black hole . Gravity can crush you, levitate you, have indirect control over every element if the element is present except sonics, magnetism, light, shadow, psionics or lightning, and then move non-elemental substances. Oh yeah, they can fly too. It's a relief that one can't create our kind of black hole by himself, and it would take a lot of both toa and elemental power to do so.

Your confusing gravity with telekinesis (telekinesis IS very powerful). Telekinesis via gravity is. As bonesiii size earlier in the topic, VERY difficult. Gravity is almost always used to crush or send things into space, so making it float would be tricky, and totally controlling would be very hard and take years of practice.

And, also as bonesiii said, it would take an army of well trained gravity toa to make a black hole. I don't think there ever was enough toa of gravity to create an army. And besides- an army of any sort of toa would be incredibly powerful- toa of fire could make a small sun, toa of rock cou lift an island, etc.

However, gravity is a very powerful element. The great beings made very few toa of gravity because of that.

[fishers64]

bones did not say that it would take an army of Gravity Toa to make a black hole. At least, I don't think he did...

Besides, I'm certain that a black hole is a Nova Blast power of Gravity, and can be done by a single Toa.

[bonesiii]

And bonesii, you ask why gravity is OP but right above that you say that they can hypothetically create the full blown kind of black hole .

But only if they kill themselves with a Nova Blast (apparently), like how Nuvhok-Kal came to his end. His black hole barely did any damage beyond himself. Or, only if you have a vast army of them, and no such army exists. Also, a vast army of ANY element will obviously be extremely powerful, far more so than one Toa, so that doesn't speak to gravity itself being more powerful. It's a limitation, actually.

Keep in mind some of this is just extrapolation, too, not necessarily canonically confirmed. We only saw one instance of a black hole, and it only destroyed the maker of it himself, not even affecting those standing near him or the cavern he was in. And (as far as I recall) we only saw that one instance in a promo of gravity moving things sideways. All other uses were making an area gravity-free or increasing the normal direction of gravity so things seemed heavier. Thus it seems that those two uses are the two easiest and the others are unlikely.

Gravity can crush you, levitate you, have indirect control over every element if the element is present

Why do you only list the powerful stuff Gravity can do? Fire can incinerate you, Water can drown you, Ice can freeze and then shatter you, etc. etc. etc. Also, nearly all elements can indirectly move around all other elements. Air and Water especially. Some of them can give more precise indirect control than I think Gravity can, especially Psionics or Ice. Ultimately the answer is that all the elements are very powerful and flexible. None are overpowered.

except sonics, magnetism, light, shadow, psionics or lightning

Well there you go. But to nitpick, with enough gravity they should be able to bend light, at least, and the others except maybe not Sonics, as black holes do bend light, etc. But the key there is with enough. Gravity is actually one of the weakest energies, so with certain materials magnetism for example, or Air, etc. etc. would be much more useful in moving other things around. Also many elements can be very powerful against the beings who are weilding Gravity, like Psionics, Lightning, or the cold or heat energy of Ice/Fire/Plasma.

In other words, it's a basic fallacy that is present in almost all "overpowered" arguments, though understandable, to think that listing ways an element IS powerful makes it overpowered, which forgets that the whole point of elements is to be powerful, including over other elements. All elements are supposed to have a variety of ways they are strong or weak against others, and that is no different with Gravity, as you said.

The only way Gravity could really be overpowered is if they somehow had vastly more elemental energy than other elements. But they have the same amount, and that is the basic limit, besides its weaknesses against certain others.

and then move non-elemental substances. Oh yeah, they can fly too

But as with the very first example of moving non-MU-elements, Sand, Air was shown to move sand around. Think about it -- Stone, Earth, Water, etc. could all move sand around. That is hardly unique to gravity. Also, these elements could also fly if they really wanted to: Air (strong enough updraft), Fire/Plasma (with the proper Tool to channel the plasma down), Magnetics (above magnetic metal with opposite poles), possibly Psionics (although I seem to recall someone saying no, but one Toa of Psionics could telekinetically lift another anyways), and possibly even Water.

Even Stone and Ice could lift themselves up on a column of their element, as could Earth though less sturdily, or Iron, or Plants, etc. Does that make them overpowered? For example, Pohatu could make a stone staircase that could last for a long time and allow others to climb to a height, more so than most other elements other than maybe Iron. So yes, in that one instance, Stone is more powerful than most. But here's the key -- life isn't just about that one example. There are other circumstances Stone is less powerful in.

I still say that once the rock is made into lava, the earth/stone toa loses control over it, therefore meaning that it can't be controlled. The reasoning for lava being a combo element between earth/stone and fire/plasma goes 'lava is, at its core, really hot rock. So the fire/plasma would just heat up the rock and the earth/stone would move it along.' Basically 'rock + heat = lava'. And this is true, so lava can be created in this way. However it cannot and would not be controlled any further because this equation leaves the earth/stone toa to control and provide all the material, while the fire/plasma toa just contribute heat.

You could be right about this, but then how would you explain things like the Piraka lava fusion elemental control, or the Lava Vatuka beast which was elemental lava? You could work around this with your interpretation by simply saying all those other things are protodermis powers that are unrelated to elements, but the simple fact remains that controlling the substance lava is by definition elemental. The only distinction between that kind of control and what a Toa of Water does is that Water is a single element, not a combo, in the MU. Both are controlling a substance, so I think it's simpler just to conclude it's elemental control.

Also, lewa and gali probably controlled the storm by altering the atmospheric conditions to create the correct conditions for what they wanted, something that is worth noting is that this stays faithful to the restrictions of both elements, unlike lava.

Here again, this could work, but it's circular. You are assuming lava is totally beyond their influence to conclude that it's beyond their control. But if they CAN control it, then by your own logic lava must not be entirely beyond their influence.

Also, even if a Toa of Stone alone has no control at all over lava, as is probably true more or less, that doesn't logically prove that a combo element wouldn't grant control. That argument assumes that combining the elements doesn't change what is being controlled, but it probably does.

Now if none of what I'm assuming is true than your conclusion works, and it's wise to be aware of the possibility since combo elements were not cleared up very much officially. One point though, to add, is that it would seem shortsighted for the GBs to make these Toa elements and yet not give the elements most closely related to the non-Toa elements a way to control them. Wouldn't it make the most sense for those Toa to do it? Rather than leaving it up to Toa like Air or Gravity to move things around indirectly. Lava is still related to Stone, Earth, Fire, and Plasma, so it makse sense for them to have a way to control it. Yes?

plasmatoran (that is the most entertaining word to type)

I loled.

would definitely have resistance to heat, as it stands to reason that their habitat of choice would be very hot places if they control greater amounts of heat than fire.

Not necessarily. One of the things that was factored in the Story Squad project was that there probably is no such thing as a Plasma-based habitat in the sense of lava like Ta-Matoran prefer. That too is a circular argument. Their habitat of choice would not be hot if they did not have that resistance. Most use of plasma in the real world for example is kept far from the weilders, so there are other problems besides heat that might be more important to overcome -- hence one of the popular options in that project was some kind of protective eye power so they wouldn't be blinded looking at plasma.

Something this brings up: where would matoran of lightning, magnetism, gravity or psionics live?

Short answer is we don't know (I think... I forget exactly which elements weren't established, other than Plants and Plasma off the top of my head).

A lot of these stranger elements may have less obvious preferences since it's unlikely to live in a place with natural (or natural to the artificial MU, as it were) emphasis on these elements. Thus their specialties might be more of general usefulness so they might live anywhere, especially on the continents.

But barring that, things like fishers' examples are likely.

So Toa of Gravity have the power to make gravitational forces independent of matter, which is what that force is based on? I thought the EE of gravity controlled gravitational forces emitted by other things, not created gravity (or destroyed it)...interesting.

It's all of the above, really. The gravitons being emitted by matter normally can also be controled (direction bent, for example) since control is a basic part of elemental powers. If it seems strange to you that they could make gravity directly from elemental energy, keep in mind it is just as strange for a humanoid being to be able to make Stone from elemental energy. Really it's no different; it's all beyond what we can do.

And besides- an army of any sort of toa would be incredibly powerful- toa of fire could make a small sun, toa of rock cou lift an island, etc.

Exactly.

bones did not say that it would take an army of Gravity Toa to make a black hole. At least, I don't think he did...

Besides, I'm certain that a black hole is a Nova Blast power of Gravity, and can be done by a single Toa.

But that kills the Toa. What I was trying to say was you'd probably need an army to make one safely (safe for the Toa anyways ). Because of what we were saying earlier about how normal use of elements is a much smaller amount at a time than a Nova Blast. In other words, normal use of Gravity isn't really all that powerful.

BTW, about the Kal, this brings up the question of whether a Ba-Toa's Nova Blast would be more damaging to things or beings around him. Nuvhok-Kal's black hole was apparently not dangerous beyond a short radius of distance. I don't know the answer to that; are Kal less powerful than Toa? The specific elements they weilded happened to be very useful against the six of the Toa Nuva, but they might have had a lot less EE for example. I dunno.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 27 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Anti Nui]

Something this brings up: where would matoran of lightning, magnetism, gravity or psionics live?

Unfortunately, Greg already confirmed that Ba-Matoran and Ce-Matoran (Gravity and Psionics) don't live in any specialized environment, something I highly disagree with, since it disrupts the balance between the elements.

Though if it were up to me, I would say Ba-Matoran live in valleys, because the way Ba-Koro was described made it seem like it was in a valley, and perhaps living closer to the underside of the island puts you closer to the gravity generators, thus making everything heavier?

As for Ce-Matoran, I would have said they lived in a place associated with storing information, such as a library.

As for Matoran of Lightning and Magnetism, I would guess that Lightning Matoran live in a place with very frequent storms (if there is such a place in the MU, if not then a place like Fishers suggested), and I would guess that Magnetism Matoran live in a place where there is no metal or something.

[bonesiii]

Unfortunately, Greg already confirmed that Ba-Matoran and Ce-Matoran (Gravity and Psionics) don't live in any specialized environment, something I highly disagree with, since it disrupts the balance between the elements.

How do you figure? Having a few that are more adaptable is a good thing. Isn't that more balanced by definition? Having them all live in unusual locations by preference would leave none to prefer living in more average or normal places.

It's fine to imagine them as doing so for fanfics and headcanon and stuff though.

[The Iron Toa]

I agree that Matoran of Lightning would probably live in stormy places. Why would Matoran of Magnetism live in a place without metal?

[fishers64]

I agree that Matoran of Lightning would probably live in stormy places. Why would Matoran of Magnetism live in a place without metal?

It would seem to me that Matoran of Magnetism would prefer to live in a place with metal, as opposed to a place without, seeing as magnetism manipulates metal.

[Anti Nui]

Well, the reason I said "without metal" was because I was thinking of this theory that said that Magnetism Matoran could naturally attract metal to their bodies, so they would want to live in a place completely devoid of metal. That and the fact that Fe-Matoran already have the metallic environment, so it would be a little redundant.

There was also this other idea that they could completely resist magnetism, so they could live in a place where there were strong magnetic fields that would affect any other metal being in the area besides them, so there you go. I guess it really depends on what their Matoran ability is.

@Bonesiii: Well, one of the main problems that people have with Psionics and Gravity being elements is the fact that "you can't find the stuff laying around somewhere" (or in the case of Gravity, it's everywhere), and the fact that Ba/Ce-Matoran were confirmed that they don't have any elemental environment (when they could) seems to support this argument against them. Basically, if you had a Cavern of the MU Elements, there couldn't be caverns for Gravity and Psionics, making them seem less like "classical elements" than the rest.

[The Iron Toa]

Unfortunately, the elemental traits of all the other types of Matoran were never canonized, but I thought the consensus was that having Matoran of Magnetism be magnetic was too much like giving them actual use of their element. You could argue against that, of course, and come up with any ideas for your own head-canon. So I see why either location would make sense -- metal, no metal... some metal. I myself can't decide on a particular habitat for them, but I think of them as having naturally good senses of direction, like an internal compass.

[Flipz]

Unfortunately, the elemental traits of all the other types of Matoran were never canonized, but I thought the consensus was that having Matoran of Magnetism be magnetic was too much like giving them actual use of their element. You could argue against that, of course, and come up with any ideas for your own head-canon. So I see why either location would make sense -- metal, no metal... some metal. I myself can't decide on a particular habitat for them, but I think of them as having naturally good senses of direction, like an internal compass.

Perhaps Magnetism Matoran are natural traders who regularly travel between different islands? It would fit well with that "can't get lost" idea you have (which I am definitely implementing within my internal headcanon).

[fishers64]

I thought that Magnetism Matoran would be able to sense magnetic fields and changes in magnetism of objects.

It's all in the head-canon at this point.

[bonesiii]

Well, the reason I said "without metal" was because I was thinking of this theory that said that Magnetism Matoran could naturally attract metal to their bodies, so they would want to live in a place completely devoid of metal.

Ah, I remember that now lol. I was stumped too on why anyone would think they'd prefer a place without metal, but I guess that makes sense. Still, it's pretty unlikely; why would the GBs design any Matoran to have such a weakness? Unlike De-Matoran, that weakness could be physically dangerous to their health. So yeah, I'd prefer a different trait. Anyways, the traits aren't going to get established, apparently, unless Greg does come back sometime.

That and the fact that Fe-Matoran already have the metallic environment, so it would be a little redundant.

I forget what was said about them, if any, as to environment... Off the top of my head, one of the popular Magnetics suggestions was basically an inner compass, able to detect magnetic fields of important machinery in the MU, so they could navigate anywhere inside it easily. If that one was picked, their preferred living place would probably be a ways away from those fields so the closest one wouldn't mess up their sense, or just no preference.

And I'd suggest in general that we should focus more on what the Matoran ability is first, rather than their preferred location because the habitat preference is a result of the ability. The reason Ta-Matoran prefer to live near lava for example is because of their ability of heat resistance.

BS01 says this about Fe-Matoran:

They contain a minuscule amount of Elemental Iron Energy, to the extent that they are more physically endurant than other Elemental Types of Matoran

Sounds like it means they have more stamina (versus Po who have more strength). See, that could work all kinds of ways in terms of preferred location, not metal per se. And BS01 says nothing about a preferred location.

So, hypothetically if Magnetics' ability was resistance to magnetic fields or minor manipulation of them, for example, they indeed might want to live around magnetic materials. Also, magnetic rock isn't necessarily under Iron, but might be more of a combination of Iron and Stone, so living in a magnetic place doesn't necessarily directly overlap Iron, even if Iron prefers to live around metal.

Anywho, kinda rambling, but yall got me interested in that so yeah.

I guess it really depends on what their Matoran ability is.

Right on, right on.

@Bonesiii: Well, one of the main problems that people have with Psionics and Gravity being elements is the fact that "you can't find the stuff laying around somewhere"

Well, what are we discussing now? The seventh Toa element introduced, Light, established the principle that energy could be an element, and two of the originals established that fictional energy could be involved -- cold energy with Ice and shadow energy with Shadow. So if you're saying that people think it's inconsistent with Bionicle's original style, I strongly disagree. Gravity is one of the important energies, like Light (and heat from Fire), and Psionics is another fictional energy, one encompassing a wide range of subpowers that were also shown early in the story, like Mind Control.

But if you're just saying that this "weirdness" of those elements makes some people like them less, that some people prefer tangible elements, then there's really nothing to debate because that's a matter of personal taste.

Myself, I just like a decent variety. The EM elements try to be complete but cautious, so it's a bigger list that does a better job of encompassing realistic differences in materials, yet the non-combo list can't go on forever because there's a limit to what's realistic. For Bionicle, I think I mostly like the list as is; a few more tangible ones like Lava and Crystal would be nice.

Also, this is getting tangential but something that occured to me because of posts here earlier today is, although I support Kinetics, I've come to realize that actually, I think Kinetics supporters can find Kinetics in Psionics. Telekinesis is a subpower of it, and it could be argued that the reason it can also control minds is that it's affecting kinetic energy of the inner workings of the mind, whereas the kinetics of molecules themselves are too small. So the telepathic powers are just more complicated versions of telekinesis. This would explain why Psionics isn't just called Telepathy, and why Telekinesis is a part of it.

So in a sense, we could think of Psionics and Kinetics as synonyms. Anywho...

(or in the case of Gravity, it's everywhere), and the fact that Ba/Ce-Matoran were confirmed that they don't have any elemental environment (when they could) seems to support this argument against them.

I understand all that, but that doesn't argue for them being overpowered, which was what I thought we were discussing.

Light is everywhere too, and I didn't see that being used to argue against it in 2003, or ever really. And Air has been pretty much everywhere in the original plot and most of the rest, except 2007 and some brief space stuff later. So is heat.

And disliking Ce-Matoran not having a specialized environment isn't an argument against the element existing; it's an argument against that detail. Personally in that case, I think it's likely that Ce-Matoran's ability is mental and thus they like to live near other Matoran. Since all Matoran generally like to live near other Matoran, that makes this not really a specialized environment, and yet, if you were to put one in a remote hermit type life, it might drive them a little more insane than normal Matoran. That's my take on it anyways. (No idea what the mental ability would be.)

Basically, if you had a Cavern of the MU Elements, there couldn't be caverns for Gravity and Psionics, making them seem less like "classical elements" than the rest.

Sure there could. Keep in mind we don't know what the Matoran traits would have been, but they would be related to their elements, and thus a specialized environment could be constructed for them. Greg simply said that they don't happen to live in such specialized environments, not that they couldn't.

I see those two elements as sort of the "glue" that socially holds together the MU. The assumption that each type of Matoran must want to live separately from others is very unattractive, at least to me. It implies that all Matoran would be prone to the antagonism towards people who were different that unfortunately developed on Mata Nui during the thousand years of Rahi raids. Having one, two, or more that naturally want to live with other types of Matoran makes sense, to help remind people that "different is good". It paints a much more positive picture of Matoran society.

Basically I think it's a mistake to consider these things only with the narrow lens of "what is very similar to past elements", or even just "elements", but you have to consider more important things like psychology, culture, etc. And in this case, since true sapience, with culture, wasn't planned by the GBs, you have to consider the practical benefits a pre-sapient culture would have with this design. Clearly, Greg saw good reasons for these statements, and we should not ignore that. This is a much larger story than just establishing a list of elements. In-story, the GBs must have had good reasons to set up the elements the way they did and include the ones they did.

For example, think about Gravity in terms of the giant robot. Really, the GBs did not intend for it to be possible for there to be bad guys inside the giant robot to begin with. Those thinking about being overpowered are thinking, "what makes a satisfying story about a struggle against evil?", but this isn't even remotely what the GBs would have been thinking. More likely they were thinking, "What if the artificial gravity systems go out? We should have Toa for that."

Psionics is admittedly more dubious since it sounds like something that belongs with sapient beings, but not necessarily. Animals have minds that Psionics can control, and it includes Telekinesis, so like I said above, it may be best to think of this as Kinetics, so it's actually simply completing the list of energy elements. But barring that, it would simply be part of how their "nanotech" functioned.

Hope this helps.

I thought the consensus was that having Matoran of Magnetism be magnetic was too much like giving them actual use of their element. You could argue against that, of course, and come up with any ideas for your own head-canon. So I see why either location would make sense -- metal, no metal... some metal. I myself can't decide on a particular habitat for them, but I think of them as having naturally good senses of direction, like an internal compass.

We don't really know what the consensus was because the project never got to the voting stage. The downtime came while the open suggestion topic was still running.

Personally, I think I like the internal compass idea best too. It seems to balance out all the main concerns in the best way.

The only problem I see with it, which is just superficial, is that it might confuse some fans who at first assume it would only work with a planet's magnetic field, so wouldn't work while the giant robot was flying through space (but see above in this post for why that wouldn't be a real problem). The canon has been very inconsistent with applying the rule of "don't confuse" anyways, as sometimes it used advanced physics like vibrating through a wall but other times fairly simple sci-fi concepts were turned down, and Psionics has obviously confused nearly everybody. So I don't take that problem too seriously; after all, Greg has also said that Bionicle is supposed to require work to understand.

You know, maybe it would be fun to run the polls from the suggestions anyways just to see what the most popular headcanon choices are, heh. What-think yall? Crazy? Fun? Crazy-fun?

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 28 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[The Iron Toa]

The BS01 article actually says Fe-Matoran prefer industrial regions, which is where we've seen them so far. I kind of think of it as anywhere they can work metal, which often means industrial regions because large groups of Fe-Matoran or especially skilled ones cause big industries to sprout around them (or they would gather where there are existing forges and such). As for the polls, it sounds like a good idea, too bad there can't be any more official canonization.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Jun 28 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[Anti Nui]

Ah, I remember that now lol. I was stumped too on why anyone would think they'd prefer a place without metal, but I guess that makes sense. Still, it's pretty unlikely; why would the GBs design any Matoran to have such a weakness? Unlike De-Matoran, that weakness could be physically dangerous to their health. So yeah, I'd prefer a different trait. Anyways, the traits aren't going to get established, apparently, unless Greg does come back sometime.

True. Although it could let them spider-man crawl up walls, though. Might be a bit overpowered, but hey.

Sounds like it means they have more stamina (versus Po who have more strength). See, that could work all kinds of ways in terms of preferred location, not metal per se. And BS01 says nothing about a preferred location.

Actually, according to a Greg quote, Fe-Matoran prefer areas where they can mine metal. BS01 lists it as "industrial regions," I guess because that would include the mines as well as the Fe-Matoran living in Xia, but yeah. I see how endurance would help in a mine.

So, hypothetically if Magnetics' ability was resistance to magnetic fields or minor manipulation of them, for example, they indeed might want to live around magnetic materials. Also, magnetic rock isn't necessarily under Iron, but might be more of a combination of Iron and Stone, so living in a magnetic place doesn't necessarily directly overlap Iron, even if Iron prefers to live around metal.

I agree.

Well, what are we discussing now? The seventh Toa element introduced, Light, established the principle that energy could be an element, and two of the originals established that fictional energy could be involved -- cold energy with Ice and shadow energy with Shadow. So if you're saying that people think it's inconsistent with Bionicle's original style, I strongly disagree. Gravity is one of the important energies, like Light (and heat from Fire), and Psionics is another fictional energy, one encompassing a wide range of subpowers that were also shown early in the story, like Mind Control.

But if you're just saying that this "weirdness" of those elements makes some people like them less, that some people prefer tangible elements, then there's really nothing to debate because that's a matter of personal taste.

Myself, I just like a decent variety. The EM elements try to be complete but cautious, so it's a bigger list that does a better job of encompassing realistic differences in materials, yet the non-combo list can't go on forever because there's a limit to what's realistic. For Bionicle, I think I mostly like the list as is; a few more tangible ones like Lava and Crystal would be nice.

Well, I don't agree with the inconsistency argument either. I was only saying that the fact that they don't have a confirmed environment supports the argument of "can't find it lying around," which again, I don't agree with. Because as I mentioned before, there are the gravity generators and the information libraries, both of which would make sense.

Also, this is getting tangential but something that occured to me because of posts here earlier today is, although I support Kinetics, I've come to realize that actually, I think Kinetics supporters can find Kinetics in Psionics. Telekinesis is a subpower of it, and it could be argued that the reason it can also control minds is that it's affecting kinetic energy of the inner workings of the mind, whereas the kinetics of molecules themselves are too small. So the telepathic powers are just more complicated versions of telekinesis. This would explain why Psionics isn't just called Telepathy, and why Telekinesis is a part of it.

So in a sense, we could think of Psionics and Kinetics as synonyms. Anywho...

That's an interesting theory. Since we don't actually know how Psionics works, I guess that could be possible.

I understand all that, but that doesn't argue for them being overpowered, which was what I thought we were discussing.

Actually, what I meant was "balanced" symbolically, not balanced in terms of power. Sorry, I guess I didn't clarify that.

Light is everywhere too, and I didn't see that being used to argue against it in 2003, or ever really. And Air has been pretty much everywhere in the original plot and most of the rest, except 2007 and some brief space stuff later. So is heat.

Yes, you do have a point there. Though the "light environment" for Av-Matoran is a place with lots of light, and the "air environment" for Le-Matoran is a place that is high in altitude, which, in other words, means places where there is "more" of that element lying around than usual. So there are still distinguishable places that are associated with elements that are pretty much everywhere. And since Light and Air are both pretty common elements in fiction, it doesn't take long for us to associate Light with bright places and Air with the sky and stuff like that. But Gravity and Psionics aren't as common elements.

I guess what I should have said is that most people wouldn't immediately think that there is a place in the MU where there would be more gravity or psionics "lying around" than usual, and it would have helped if it was confirmed that they do live in such places.

And disliking Ce-Matoran not having a specialized environment isn't an argument against the element existing; it's an argument against that detail.

Fair enough, I guess.

Personally in that case, I think it's likely that Ce-Matoran's ability is mental and thus they like to live near other Matoran. Since all Matoran generally like to live near other Matoran, that makes this not really a specialized environment, and yet, if you were to put one in a remote hermit type life, it might drive them a little more insane than normal Matoran. That's my take on it anyways. (No idea what the mental ability would be.)

Living near other Matoran makes sense. Though you could also say that they not only like to live around other Matoran, but other beings in general, including intelligent Rahi.

And isn't the mental ability the shielded mind thing?

Sure there could. Keep in mind we don't know what the Matoran traits would have been, but they would be related to their elements, and thus a specialized environment could be constructed for them. Greg simply said that they don't happen to live in such specialized environments, not that they couldn't.

Ah, well, that changes everything.

I see those two elements as sort of the "glue" that socially holds together the MU. The assumption that each type of Matoran must want to live separately from others is very unattractive, at least to me. It implies that all Matoran would be prone to the antagonism towards people who were different that unfortunately developed on Mata Nui during the thousand years of Rahi raids. Having one, two, or more that naturally want to live with other types of Matoran makes sense, to help remind people that "different is good". It paints a much more positive picture of Matoran society.

Basically I think it's a mistake to consider these things only with the narrow lens of "what is very similar to past elements", or even just "elements", but you have to consider more important things like psychology, culture, etc. And in this case, since true sapience, with culture, wasn't planned by the GBs, you have to consider the practical benefits a pre-sapient culture would have with this design.

Fair enough. But would it have really mattered if that glitch hadn't occurred that made everything in the MU sentient? What benefits would there be for a social-glue Matoran type in a culture-less and pre-sapience world? Perhaps they made the sociable Ce-Matoran as a failsafe in case the glitch did happen, so there would be a Matoran type that could help unite the other types.

Clearly, Greg saw good reasons for these statements, and we should not ignore that. This is a much larger story than just establishing a list of elements.

Well, this is a topic about elements, after all. And I agree with you on there being more to the story than the elements. I just don't happen to agree with the way some of them are implemented in the story, is all.

In-story, the GBs must have had good reasons to set up the elements the way they did and include the ones they did.

That's the thing, though. As far as the story goes, we haven't really gone that deep into the functions of all the elements in the Matoran Universe, which is something that I think should have been explored a little more. And who knows? Perhaps we were going to see some of that in Yesterday Quest.

For example, think about Gravity in terms of the giant robot. Really, the GBs did not intend for it to be possible for there to be bad guys inside the giant robot to begin with. Those thinking about being overpowered are thinking, "what makes a satisfying story about a struggle against evil?", but this isn't even remotely what the GBs would have been thinking. More likely they were thinking, "What if the artificial gravity systems go out? We should have Toa for that."

And I agree. That would make it make sense that the Ba-Matoran would want to live some place close to the gravity systems.

And again, sorry about all that, I didn't mean "overpowered" at all.

I say go for it with the polls.

[bonesiii]

The BS01 article actually says Fe-Matoran prefer industrial regions,

We must not be looking at the same article; Iron page does not say that. I just reread it all again; not there.

... Searching... Not under Fe-Matoran... I give up; where? (Prepares to bang head on wall if obvious lol.)

Well, I don't agree with the inconsistency argument either. I was only saying that the fact that they don't have a confirmed environment supports the argument of "can't find it lying around," which again, I don't agree with. Because as I mentioned before, there are the gravity generators and the information libraries, both of which would make sense.

Alright, fair enough. The gravity generators may be a problem with that thinking, as they create uniform gravity fields everywhere in the MU, although the idea of special areas where generators don't reach or make more gravity has been used in other science fiction so I suppose Bionicle could borrow it. Libraries makes a lot of sense too, for Ce.

I guess what I should have said is that most people wouldn't immediately think that there is a place in the MU where there would be more gravity or psionics "lying around" than usual, and it would have helped if it was confirmed that they do live in such places.

Yeah, makes sense. I just think that how it is does make a lot of sense in-story. Might take a little more thought, but that can be a good thing.

And isn't the mental ability the shielded mind thing?

You're absolutely right. The page I found that seems best for this info, or rather section, while trying to find the part about Iron above, is here:

http://biosector01.com/wiki/index.php/Matoran#Elemental_Types

So yeah, forgot about that. I suppose that doesn't really help my theory that if they lived alone it might be harder on them. Still, not having a preferred unusual location does help them sort of act as societal "glue."

So, the ones NOT established are: Gravity, Plasma, Plants, and Magnetism. For some reason I thought the list was a bit longer than that, but I guess not. It was nearly a year ago that we ran the project after all lol.

Ah, well, that changes everything.

Cool.

Fair enough. But would it have really mattered if that glitch hadn't occurred that made everything in the MU sentient? What benefits would there be for a social-glue Matoran type in a culture-less and pre-sapience world? Perhaps they made the sociable Ce-Matoran as a failsafe in case the glitch did happen, so there would be a Matoran type that could help unite the other types.

That's one option; makes a lot of sense with mental shielding being the trait too. Another one, that I was kinda driving at before, is that not having sapience does not mean not having minds. The GBs did intentionally create beings with minds, able to imagine, etc. And more importantly, they still need information to pass along, in order to work together in maintaining the Great Spirit. So for example Ce-Matoran would make excellent messengers.

Also, the fact that these mind reading and controlling and shielding powers were established without sapience being intended tells me the GBs would know such powers were possible and that their nanotech could fall prey to them in case of an incursion by an alien species while Mata Nui was spying on a planet. So it could be a failsafe for more than just the possibility of enemies native to the MU.


About the gravity generators, it's worth mentioning that we don't really know where those are. They might just be machines on the islands and continents in all the domes, so living just about anywhere might be close to them. Not sure if it's possible for it to be just one machine; I think Greg called them generators plural, but unsure. Anyways, on the other hand they might be very far away, in the "skin", probably towards the back.

But, considering Gravity Toa can fly, I don't think living near the generators would be much of an issue. In case of a failure, probably Mata Nui (or perhaps someone in the Order, maybe a "Scroll of Repairs" from the GBs, something) could inform a Ba-Matoran who is destined to become a Toa, or an existing Toa, of where to go, and it shouldn't take very long to get there. Also, I was thinking more like the Ba-Toa would make temporary artificial gravity; it need not even be anyone of the Ba element who actually does the repairs.

Hypothetically let's say there's one machine per dome and they're buried under the dirt and a stone layer on each island/continent. Just one Toa of Gravity to keep gravity working with his own power, and Toa of Earth and Stone could do the repairs themselves, or open up the way for Matoran to come in and do them, etc. And repairs likely would require the making of new pieces or the altering of broken pieces which might require other elements like Iron. Anywho, these are just alternatives; it doesn't mean what you suggested is impossible, just not required.

[The Iron Toa]

Actually, it's the infobox on the Fe-Matoran article that says they prefer industrial regions. I'm not sure where that information came from originally. As for Matoran of the Green, I thought they preferred jungles and forests. Well, I suppose open farmland would make sense... anywhere there are plants growing. The arguments that there are no locations thematically linked to Gravity and Psionics reminds me -- what about Plasma? Can plasma be found naturally in the Matoran Universe? Would any particular place make sense for Matoran of Plasma to live?

[fishers64]

Yes, you do have a point there. Though the "light environment" for Av-Matoran is a place with lots of light, and the "air environment" for Le-Matoran is a place that is high in altitude, which, in other words, means places where there is "more" of that element lying around than usual. So there are still distinguishable places that are associated with elements that are pretty much everywhere. And since Light and Air are both pretty common elements in fiction, it doesn't take long for us to associate Light with bright places and Air with the sky and stuff like that. But Gravity and Psionics aren't as common elements.

Nitpicky here, but there isn't more air at higher altitudes - in fact, there's less. So that formula doesn't work. The characteristic of Le-Matoran as high altitude has to do with flying and open air, not the amount of air itself. (It's a bit more of a traditional thing).

Fair enough. But would it have really mattered if that glitch hadn't occurred that made everything in the MU sentient? What benefits would there be for a social-glue Matoran type in a culture-less and pre-sapience world? Perhaps they made the sociable Ce-Matoran as a failsafe in case the glitch did happen, so there would be a Matoran type that could help unite the other types.

That's one option; makes a lot of sense with mental shielding being the trait too. Another one, that I was kinda driving at before, is that not having sapience does not mean not having minds. The GBs did intentionally create beings with minds, able to imagine, etc. And more importantly, they still need information to pass along, in order to work together in maintaining the Great Spirit. So for example Ce-Matoran would make excellent messengers.

Also, the fact that these mind reading and controlling and shielding powers were established without sapience being intended tells me the GBs would know such powers were possible and that their nanotech could fall prey to them in case of an incursion by an alien species while Mata Nui was spying on a planet. So it could be a failsafe for more than just the possibility of enemies native to the MU.

Also, I would think that the GBs wanted their creation to be flexible and adapt to change, so Matoran who analyzed other Matoran to understand them would be a part of the machine as well. Ta-Matoran work at forges, Onu-Matoran in the Archives, etc - so they would want a bunch of Matoran traveling the universe, seeing which Matoran were good at what, and how to deploy them to the robot's best advantage in order to solve problems Mata Nui might be facing.

For example, if Mata Nui crash-landed on a planet and broke a leg (I know, crazy example) then the Ce-Matoran would be selecting and sending lots of Fe- and Po-Matoran to repair the damage, and would know pretty much which of those to send where. Other Matoran might be required to fix systems broken by the crash, and these people, along with Mata Nui, would send the right Matoran where they needed to be. This system would be mentally shielded to avoid outside interference.

So I don't take that problem too seriously; after all, Greg has also said that Bionicle is supposed to require work to understand.

If it was too easy to understand, it would take all the fun out of it.

You know, maybe it would be fun to run the polls from the suggestions anyways just to see what the most popular headcanon choices are, heh. What-think yall? Crazy? Fun? Crazy-fun?

Who says the S&T people can't have a little fun? Go for it.

Edited by fishers64, Jun 28 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[High Voltage]

So I don't take that problem too seriously; after all, Greg has also said that Bionicle is supposed to require work to understand.

Haha, aint that the truth.

Anyway, fair enough on the gravity is OP thing. I think I may think gravity is OP because we haven't seen it in action beyond the kal, who were quite powerful across the media. Gravity isn't infallible if people are trained for it, I think Lariska trained for fighting a Ba-toa and won. You could make a lot of arguments that psionics is OP, but since we've seen two actual toa of psionics do stuff, it isn't that impressive. Or it might be, maybe I'm just saying that cause both got captured. Point is, I'm retracting most of my statement that gravity is OP. I say most, it still is a tiny bit .

I searched a list and the only unconfirmed environments are for lightning and magnetism. Gravity and psionics, like Anti-nui said, have no specific prefered habitat, though what others suggested were cool, like the libraries and the generators (If they are in specific locations in each dome). Good for fanon basically. Plasmatoran live in hot areas, and like you said Bonesiii, their habitat would be a consequence of their ability so, if you work backwards, this would suggest their ability has something to do with heat resistance. I wouldn't know what the story squad project said, I think I left by that point, but based on what information I have on hand this makes sense. The resistance to bright lights sounds cool though.

Bonesiii, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the lava thing . The combo elements we've seen have been able to be controlled through what the two elements are capable of. I don't see any reason to believe that if you combine elements that changes the restrictions on the elements being combined. It would just make sense that lava couldn't be controlled based on what we know and it would stay internally consistent. And as with skakdi combinations, I'm not sure, was the creature described specifically as lava, like liquid rock? It could have been very hot, but solid, rock if it wasn't. I do agree with you on one thing though, combo elements have had too little description in the story to accurately pinpoint how they work, and we'll probably never know unless greg comes back. Again, I'm basing this on what would make sense within the bionicle universe, so unless concrete evidence to the contrary comes up, lava will be considered uncontrollable by me.

BTW, about the Kal, this brings up the question of whether a Ba-Toa's Nova Blast would be more damaging to things or beings around him. Nuvhok-Kal's black hole was apparently not dangerous beyond a short radius of distance. I don't know the answer to that; are Kal less powerful than Toa? The specific elements they weilded happened to be very useful against the six of the Toa Nuva, but they might have had a lot less EE for example. I dunno.

If they were elite bohrok designed to free the Bahrag, then they should be well equipped against threats. I think the reason that their defeats didn't effect anyone besides themselves is that they were defeated by an overload of their powers, so it only affected them.

Your confusing gravity with telekinesis (telekinesis IS very powerful). Telekinesis via gravity is. As bonesiii size earlier in the topic, VERY difficult. Gravity is almost always used to crush or send things into space, so making it float would be tricky, and totally controlling would be very hard and take years of practice.

I am certainly not confusing gravity with telekinesis. However, using their power, toa of gravity could do what telekinesis does. And it may be hard, not that we'd know, but it is doable. From what we've seen with gravity, it can move stuff. Making it float wouldn't be difficult at all though, just alter how much gravity affects the subject, boom, floating. Telekinesis isn't that powerful either, it's restricted by all the restrictions of a toa that gravity has. It could do stuff like what gravity can more easily though.

And besides- an army of any sort of toa would be incredibly powerful- toa of fire could make a small sun, toa of rock cou lift an island, etc.

Toa of fire could make a large fireball, toa of plasma could make a star . Also, lifting islands vs black hole. I know who I'd bet on. (Completely ignoring that you'd need way more toa to make a black hole ). Though neither would really win as they would probably both be well within the event horizon, so basically inevitably going to die, unless the Ba-toa found a way to channel elemental energy over really long distances and had access to space flight.

But to nitpick, with enough gravity they should be able to bend light, and the others except maybe not Sonics, as black holes do bend light, etc. But the key there is with enough. Gravity is actually one of the weakest energies, so with certain materials magnetism for example, or Air, etc. etc. would be much more useful in moving other things around.

Yeah, not with what they have availiable. And they can bend it, not control it. Also, yes it's the weakest FF, but gravity (the element) can increase or decrease the effects of gravity (the force) on a target. We've seen stuff moved by gravity before, and the way that would probably work gravity could potentially alter one point to be the new centre of gravity and then alter the effect of that on a specific target, and boom, presto, ya got yourself some stuff moved by gravity or whatever (real world physics is weeping in a corner from that, but it's bionicle physics, so it's okay).

Air was shown to move sand around. Think about it -- Stone, Earth, Water, etc. could all move sand around. That is hardly unique to gravity. Also, these elements could also fly if they really wanted to: Air (strong enough updraft), Fire/Plasma (with the proper Tool to channel the plasma down), Magnetics (above magnetic metal with opposite poles), possibly Psionics (although I seem to recall someone saying no, but one Toa of Psionics could telekinetically lift another anyways), and possibly even Water.

Now here's something I know for sure ! The only elements confirmed for elemental flight on their own are iron, magnetism and gravity. Air can if you have a miru.

Air and Water especially. Some of them can give more precise indirect control than I think Gravity can, especially Psionics or Ice.

Fair enough, ice and psionics do allow greater control, though gravity would be more precise than water and air. Gravity and psionics are kind of your 'jack of all trades' kind of elements for moving stuff.

You know, maybe it would be fun to run the polls from the suggestions anyways just to see what the most popular headcanon choices are, heh. What-think yall? Crazy? Fun? Crazy-fun?

Sounds crazy. And fun too!

I say go for it with the polls.

We need more polls!

Edited by High Voltage, Jun 28 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[fishers64]

Plasmatoran live in hot areas, and like you said Bonesiii, their habitat would be a consequence of their ability so, if you work backwards, this would suggest their ability has something to do with heat resistance.

Er, probably not best to assume that. While I would go with the fact that they would live near plasma, and plasma is inherently hot, we don't know how Plasma is handled in Mata Nui's systems and what characteristics would be required.

Again, I'm basing this on what would make sense within the bionicle universe, so unless concrete evidence to the contrary comes up, lava will be considered uncontrollable by me.

I'm sorry, but this pun is hilarious. I think it's a good idea to assume that you can't control lava...

Air was shown to move sand around. Think about it -- Stone, Earth, Water, etc. could all move sand around. That is hardly unique to gravity. Also, these elements could also fly if they really wanted to: Air (strong enough updraft), Fire/Plasma (with the proper Tool to channel the plasma down), Magnetics (above magnetic metal with opposite poles), possibly Psionics (although I seem to recall someone saying no, but one Toa of Psionics could telekinetically lift another anyways), and possibly even Water.

Now here's something I know for sure ! The only elements confirmed for elemental flight on their own are iron, magnetism and gravity. Air can if you have a miru.

I don't know if any of you have had the privilege of watching birds fly near a canyon ridge, but if you have, you'll notice that they just glide through the air - don't even flap their wings. The air in those areas has warm thermal currents in it, which these birds can ride and stay aloft (paragliders and hang gliders use these as well). Thus, I would say that Fire/Plasma, given enough EE, could probably fly. Granted, they're not birds or paragliders, but I'm betting that these Toa can form a much stronger thermal than is present naturally in real-world air.

Air would be harder IMO, without a Miru - I imagine that such flight would be slow and awkward, and probably not the greatest. Water...nah...maybe if you had a water spout or something...

If you had two Psionics Toa, both could fly, but the other would be controlling the other's flight. Given that they can read each other's minds as well, that would be an interesting situation...but telekinesis can't lift yourself, so no, individual Psionics Toa cannot fly.

[The Iron Toa]

I expect any sort of flight powered by elements besides air and perhaps gravity and magnetism would take a lot of elemental energy. I can picture Toa of Psionics telekinetically lifting each other, and Toa of Fire, Plasma, and Water propelling themselves on jets of their element, but that would be hard to maintain for long. As for the preferred environment for Matoran, the Bionicle wiki (at Wikia) says they prefer hot climates, but someone might have added that in without any source. I can't think of anywhere that's been confirmed.

[bonesiii]

Actually, it's the infobox on the Fe-Matoran article that says they prefer industrial regions. I'm not sure where that information came from originally.

Ah... hiding in plain sight. I presume it came from Greg as the BS01 staff watches carefully for nonofficial information to remove, and obviously it wasn't from the story itself.

The arguments that there are no locations thematically linked to Gravity and Psionics reminds me -- what about Plasma? Can plasma be found naturally in the Matoran Universe? Would any particular place make sense for Matoran of Plasma to live?

Well keep in mind the habitat preferences aren't necessarily as simple as "the element is found naturally here." Ta-Matoran, both in Ta-Metru and Ta-Koro, did not live among natural fire (not to overthink the term "natural" of course, considering it's a robot), but in a Metru filled with molten protodermis, which could provide heat for flames of course, and same in Ta-Koro. And the De-Matoran try to stay away from much of their element.

Nitpicky here, but there isn't more air at higher altitudes - in fact, there's less. So that formula doesn't work. The characteristic of Le-Matoran as high altitude has to do with flying and open air, not the amount of air itself. (It's a bit more of a traditional thing).

Well, to nitpick the nitpick, lol, the density of air within a big distance of the ground is about the same, so if you're against the ground, there's roughly half as much air near you as if you're, say, about fifty feet up. It's only if you get up really high like cloud height that the density gets significantly less.

For example, if Mata Nui crash-landed on a planet and broke a leg (I know, crazy example) then the Ce-Matoran would be selecting and sending lots of Fe- and Po-Matoran to repair the damage, and would know pretty much which of those to send where. Other Matoran might be required to fix systems broken by the crash, and these people, along with Mata Nui, would send the right Matoran where they needed to be. This system would be mentally shielded to avoid outside interference.

Nice thinking. And if there was such a fracture it could definately open up the MU for easier invasion.

When in doubt, remember the Great Beings' motto, "Failsafes R Us."

Gravity isn't infallible if people are trained for it, I think Lariska trained for fighting a Ba-toa and won.

Yep.

You could make a lot of arguments that psionics is OP, but since we've seen two actual toa of psionics do stuff, it isn't that impressive. Or it might be, maybe I'm just saying that cause both got captured. Point is, I'm retracting most of my statement that gravity is OP. I say most, it still is a tiny bit .

Alright, lol. And yeah, Psionics is probably the best candidate for being overpowered, but then that's probably part of why Greg said they couldn't absorb, for example, and maybe not having a specialized environment might have been factored there too, to balance it out. Also, the telekinetic part requires a lot of focus for heavier objects, so the real risk of being OP would be mind control IMO.

Bonesiii, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the lava thing . The combo elements we've seen have been able to be controlled through what the two elements are capable of. I don't see any reason to believe that if you combine elements that changes the restrictions on the elements being combined.

Well something I thought of after that post was the group of logical fallacies which I label Parts Confusion; mistaking the abilities and limits of what each individual part of a larger machine (or group of things/people/etc.) can do for the abilities and limits of the machine as a whole. An example given when I was studying logic was looking at an airplane part and assuming it has the same properties as the whole airplane, so could fly, etc. -- or in this case, seeing that the one part cannot fly and thus assuming that an airplane can't fly.

Basically by fusing their elemental energies it makes sense to me Toa would gain a sort of control over it. But I can see the argument both ways; after all, they aren't in a hivemind state like Kaita. Either way, I think what is most important we can agree on, right? -- that they can combine their elements to make other elements most likely. With lava, if you throw lava on someone, it's not gonna much matter if technically you can control what the lava does after that, heh. That might matter more for other combo materials though.

Also, lifting islands vs black hole. I know who I'd bet on.

I don't, because the example he was giving wasn't specifying the same amount of Toa needed for the comparable effect; he was just giving a basic example. If you had an equal number of both types of Toa, then maybe the amount needed to lift the island is reached while the amount to make a black hole without going nova isn't. The point is we shouldn't assume the math of these things is unbalanced to make one overpowered. I think they generally all balance out so there are reasonable weaknesses with any.

By the way, I should amend something I said earlier about the GBs not sharing our (the fans') concerns about balance in powers for story enjoyment. Actually, thinking about it, even if there was no sapience, glitches might still happen with any unit that would make it important for all units to have reasonable weaknesses that other units could exploit to take down or stun and repair glitching units. So really, the GBs probably DID want a balance of powers.

(Completely ignoring that you'd need way more toa to make a black hole ). Though neither would really win as they would probably both be well within the event horizon, so basically inevitably going to die, unless the Ba-toa found a way to channel elemental energy over really long distances and had access to space flight.

Also, let's not forget that Makuta, weilding the full power of the Great Spirit giant robot, did use a massive gravity attack. What he was intending for it to do is unclear, but when Mata Nui aimed Makuta's arm up and the power hit the moons, they didn't implode into black holes or anything. Exactly how that factors here I'm not sure, but it's food for thought. I get the impression he was planning to have increased gravity kill the beings on the surface of Bara Magna and the other giant robot, while he would flee the planet; that even that massive attack would not have collapsed the planet into a black hole.

The only elements confirmed for elemental flight on their own are iron, magnetism and gravity.

First of all, you forgot Fire; Vakama was not only confirmed but shown in the story as flying with fire. Also, Iron? I thought Greg specified that a Toa of Iron could lift other beings, but not themselves. I dunno, but yeah (maybe I'm thinking of Psionics though). Also, the purpose of the Miru for Air is almost certainly not because they can't make a strong enough updraft to fly -- all the elements are confirmed as being very powerful -- but that flying by that method alone is very inefficient, so it saves EE to just use a Miru.

Edited by bonesiii, Jun 28 2012 - 03:19 PM.

[Anti Nui]

Yes, you do have a point there. Though the "light environment" for Av-Matoran is a place with lots of light, and the "air environment" for Le-Matoran is a place that is high in altitude, which, in other words, means places where there is "more" of that element lying around than usual. So there are still distinguishable places that are associated with elements that are pretty much everywhere. And since Light and Air are both pretty common elements in fiction, it doesn't take long for us to associate Light with bright places and Air with the sky and stuff like that. But Gravity and Psionics aren't as common elements.

Nitpicky here, but there isn't more air at higher altitudes - in fact, there's less. So that formula doesn't work. The characteristic of Le-Matoran as high altitude has to do with flying and open air, not the amount of air itself. (It's a bit more of a traditional thing).

Well, that's why I put "more" in quotation marks. Basically, what I meant was that in a place high in altitude, there is more open air everywhere, just as you said.

Actually, it's the infobox on the Fe-Matoran article that says they prefer industrial regions. I'm not sure where that information came from originally. As for Matoran of the Green, I thought they preferred jungles and forests. Well, I suppose open farmland would make sense... anywhere there are plants growing. The arguments that there are no locations thematically linked to Gravity and Psionics reminds me -- what about Plasma? Can plasma be found naturally in the Matoran Universe? Would any particular place make sense for Matoran of Plasma to live?

That information came from the Greg quote said was that Fe-Matoran preferred places where iron could be mined. The "industrial regions" thing came from the fact that many Fe-Matoran live in Xia, which is definitely an industrial place, and the fact that mining areas in general are also industrial. So it would be easier to just say "industrial regions."

And yes, Greg has confirmed that the Green Matoran live in forests and jungles.

As for Plasma, I believe a popular idea for the Plasma Matoran was that they could withstand extremely high temperatures, beyond even a Ta-Matoran, to the point where they could live in extremely hot locations (where there would be plasma, I presume). The downside to this is that going to a place like Ko-Koro would be very dangerous to them, when it would only be uncomfortable to a Ta-Matoran. Of course, this idea was never confirmed, and I don't know why that wiki would say that. Unless it was, and I didn't know about it.

Also, I don't really understand why a Toa of Psionics couldn't fly under his or her own power. Isn't using Telekinesis to fly a common thing in fiction?

Edited by Anti Nui, Jun 28 2012 - 05:13 PM.

[bonesiii]

Also, I don't really understand why a Toa of Psionics couldn't fly under his or her own power. Isn't using Telekinesis to fly a common thing in fiction?

Well different fictional franchises have a wide variety of different rules for these sorts of things. I tend to think of it as the same thing as using your arm to lift things, just a magical version of an arm. And we can't lift ourselves with our arms to fly.

Basically the power of telekinesis comes out from the Toa to things or beings around her, rather than controlling herself. If nothing else you can think of it as yet another special limitation the GBs encoded to make sure they weren't overpowered.

[Ballom]

Also, I don't really understand why a Toa of Psionics couldn't fly under his or her own power. Isn't using Telekinesis to fly a common thing in fiction?

Well different fictional franchises have a wide variety of different rules for these sorts of things. I tend to think of it as the same thing as using your arm to lift things, just a magical version of an arm. And we can't lift ourselves with our arms to fly.

Basically the power of telekinesis comes out from the Toa to things or beings around her, rather than controlling herself. If nothing else you can think of it as yet another special limitation the GBs encoded to make sure they weren't overpowered.

Technically, a Toa of Psionics could use telekinesis on their armor, and thus levitate that way. However, I think it can be explained as in issue of both focus necessary to do such a complex task as well as the amount of exertion needed that would prevent it, rather than some odd limitation. As you said, tekekinesis usually works like physically moving things, so effectively throwing your heavy metal body around using it would be difficult enough. Factoring in properly controlling the process so they don't suddenly fall and eat dirt, and you have a handy explanation against flying Psionic Toa.

~B~

[High Voltage]

(Completely ignoring that you'd need way more toa to make a black hole ). Though neither would really win as they would probably both be well within the event horizon, so basically inevitably going to die, unless the Ba-toa found a way to channel elemental energy over really long distances and had access to space flight.

Also, let's not forget that Makuta, weilding the full power of the Great Spirit giant robot, did use a massive gravity attack. What he was intending for it to do is unclear, but when Mata Nui aimed Makuta's arm up and the power hit the moons, they didn't implode into black holes or anything. Exactly how that factors here I'm not sure, but it's food for thought. I get the impression he was planning to have increased gravity kill the beings on the surface of Bara Magna and the other giant robot, while he would flee the planet; that even that massive attack would not have collapsed the planet into a black hole.

The only elements confirmed for elemental flight on their own are iron, magnetism and gravity.

First of all, you forgot Fire; Vakama was not only confirmed but shown in the story as flying with fire. Also, Iron? I thought Greg specified that a Toa of Iron could lift other beings, but not themselves. I dunno, but yeah (maybe I'm thinking of Psionics though). Also, the purpose of the Miru for Air is almost certainly not because they can't make a strong enough updraft to fly -- all the elements are confirmed as being very powerful -- but that flying by that method alone is very inefficient, so it saves EE to just use a Miru.

I'm not sure what teridax was going to do either, but he already has access to long distance gravity blasts and space flight. I was just saying it would be suicidal for the toa as they would need to be closeby, or close enough that they were going to die if the black hole was created.

And if Vakama flew with fire, then fair enough. I think I vaguely remember that. I think you're thinking about psionics, he definitely said that they couldn't fly by themselves and I remember him saying that fe-toa could fly. And I think greg specifically said that toa of air need some sort of glider to fly. A miru would be handy because they need to be up high to start the flight. Toa of iron, magnetism and gravity could fly of their own accord. And besides, if you really wanted to save EE you could just use a Kadin .

Edited by High Voltage, Jun 29 2012 - 01:13 AM.

[fishers64]

Makuta's red eyes gleamed with triumph. "You know, don't you? A single blast of gravitic power and this planet will fold in on itself, destroying everything and everyone on it. I will survive...perhaps you might as well...but everything else will be a memory."

There it is from the giant robot himself. I don't think that was a black hole, no...

As for Vakama, I recall that he was using his disk launcher as a jetpack, but I thought that it was levitation disks or that being a jetpack was a natural function of the tool. But yes, if he was using his elemental power there is could work, like a jetpack anyway.

[High Voltage]

Makuta's red eyes gleamed with triumph. "You know, don't you? A single blast of gravitic power and this planet will fold in on itself, destroying everything and everyone on it. I will survive...perhaps you might as well...but everything else will be a memory."

There it is from the giant robot himself. I don't think that was a black hole, no...

As for Vakama, I recall that he was using his disk launcher as a jetpack, but I thought that it was levitation disks or that being a jetpack was a natural function of the tool. But yes, if he was using his elemental power there is could work, like a jetpack anyway.

So he needed a tool as well. I don't know if it worked elementally, but bs01 says it activated with his thoughts. And it probably wouldn't have been a black hole, no, black holes can't be made from planets. Well, theoretically they can, but no known force has the ability to make a planet that dense. Talking about what planet sized robots can and can't do is kind of hard to do though.

Also, I can't help but think everyone's getting bogged down on gravity and plasma. So I have a question about light. Namely, how does one create solid objects out of it?

[fishers64]

So he needed a tool as well. I don't know if it worked elementally, but bs01 says it activated with his thoughts. And it probably wouldn't have been a black hole, no, black holes can't be made from planets. Well, theoretically they can, but no known force has the ability to make a planet that dense. Talking about what planet sized robots can and can't do is kind of hard to do though.

Also, I can't help but think everyone's getting bogged down on gravity and plasma. So I have a question about light. Namely, how does one create solid objects out of it?

Even if the Mata Nui robot could create a black hole, I don't think Teridax intended to create one with this gravity blast. Black holes can be dangerous to giant robots.

As for Vakama, there's no indication in-story that using the tool for flight constituited an elemental energy drain, so I'm tempted to say that it is an innate quality of the tool to allow for flight, and that its power would be activated similar to a mask power - though the mind.

As for the light question, you mean like Solek did? I don't think those objects were solid, exactly, more like a electromagnetic force field that held a shape.

[Ballom]

So I have a question about light. Namely, how does one create solid objects out of it?

I think that's something that's usually not explained, and just handwaved, due to the general implausibility of it, like in Halo.

~B~

Edited by Ballom, Jun 30 2012 - 11:20 PM.