118 replies to this topic

[The Iron Toa]

Attention:

We are continuing this topic on my blog here.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Oct 05 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Kaitholas Cage]

I would help you build one as a tabletop. I do think it's a great idea, and I'd love to play one with some of me friends. I highly suggest you see about VNOG and its battle system, as well as D&D.

[Katuko]

I support this, and it would be very interesting to see developed. I've thought about it myself several times while in the BZPRPG.

Since BIONICLE uses elemental energy, I think an MP-based system (rather than the standard spells-per-day that D&D has) would be the best for that part. Kanohi powers and natural powers might be handled in a different manner, perhaps either a cooldown per use or a "fatigue" system, where using powers repeatedly eventually limits you in other ways (penalty on physical strength, speed, mental focus for Kanohi, etc). I'd suggest using D&D as a base for rules, but build classes based around the races that exist in BIONICLE. Races themselves would be classes, almost, since Toa are a kind of fighter/sorcerer build, while Vortixx would never have any "spells" by default.

The most important part of such an RPG system is that it allows you the freedom of chocie in what your character does, while still placing realistic limits on it. For a tabletop game, a D/GM (Dungeon/Game Master, depending on system) is always there to run the show. In the BZPRPG again, players generally settle combat themselves, the GM only steps in if there is quarreling. As the rule-writer, you don't need to make everything perfect, but you need to make it so that the GM's job is not to rewrite your rules all the time.

[The Iron Toa]

Right - there could be specializations, but I don't think classes would work. And we definitely would need stats for willpower and various internal energies. I also wouldn't want it to just be a Toa game - you could play a hero (or villain, or neutral player) of a different species.

[Katuko]

Ah, yes. I mean that each race would be like a class in itself, compared to regular D&D.

[Death of the Endless]

Hooray! I've actually had this idea before myself (as I'm sure many people have), but I've never done it. Perhaps, with multiple minds working on the project, it will actually be completed.

So, the first thing you'll want to think about is a character's basic attributes, numbers which define xir level of ability in various areas. In D&D (you can find out more about that rule system here), these are Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution, and Charisma, and are referred to as "Ability Scores". Just "Attributes" should be a fine name for them in this game.

Here are some potential choices:

Physical: Agility, Constitution, Dexterity, Endurance, Speed, Strength

Mental: Intelligence, Knowledge, Logic, Memory

Personal: Charisma, Creativity, Luck, Morality (or Light), Spirituality, Wisdom

Other: Power (e.g. a Toa's degree of control over xir element)

You should have at least two in Physical, one in Mental, and a few more in the others. The attributes will influence nearly every other stat in the game, mostly through modifiers---positive or negative numbers which provide bonuses or penalties to other statistics. Potential attribute scores are associated with a certain modifier each, with lower modifiers for lower scores and higher modifiers for higher scores. As a general rule, more potential scores should correspond to positive modifiers than negative ones.

Some attributes make others obsolete. For example, a system with Intelligence or Mind as an attribute would be unlikely to need Logic, Memory or Knowledge as much. Other attributes may not suit the universe well (for example, Luck or Creativity would be less useful in a Bionicle campaign). Finally, there may be some attributes that it would be more fun to roleplay, such as Charisma. It won't feel very real to have another character believe a lie that you haven't even told.

So think about that. Sorry if you know most of this already. Your post made your level of knowledge unclear.

[The Iron Toa]

Well, I understand the concept of character attributes, but not sure what stats to have. Let me think...

Well, we want some basic ones:

Strength

Dexterity

Vitality/Endurance/Toughness

Intelligence

Charisma

Willpower

And we'll want some more Bionicle-specific ones:

Moral light/shadow (this could be tied in with an alignment system - but not completely dependent on it. For example, Vultraz was evil even before he got his light drained, and I haven't read the Karda Nui books but it seemed to me Vican wasn't particularly evil as a Shadow Matoran)
Toa energy (for Toa, Turaga, and Matoran destined to become Toa)

We'll want a way of measuring health, but I think there should be consequences of certain parts being damaged rather than just having hitpoints. My dad and I once brainstormed a system of different, well, systems, and how each would have its own health and stamina. For example, being stabbed in the guts would make you lose Gut health and being nauseated would make you lose Gut Stamina. Of course, this would have to be adapted for Bionicle. Let's see, we have Armor (maybe split that into basic armor, their 'skin' so to speak, and extra armor), Flesh/Muscle (the organic tissue that lets them move), Bone (metal bones under the flesh), Lung, Brain, and maybe Heart or Heartlight. This, of course, is for MU beings, we could adapt it for Spherus Magna beings later.

We'd want some sort of 'mana'. For Toa of course this would be Elemental Energy. Beings without special powers wouldn't use it, but anyone capable of using one, whether it's a Rhotuka launcher, the ability to fire Shadow Bolts, or energy blasts like Axonn has, would have some sort of rechargeable inner energy from which to draw these powers. We could also measure Life energy, as some beings can transfer theirs to revive another, but that is rare. I'm not sure about other beings, but Toa would not be able to increase their supply of Elemental Energy. However, they could learn to have finer control over their powers, which would be controlled by their Will stat as well as training.

Sounding good so far?

[Kaitholas Cage]

Sounds good, but there used to be this thing called "Claw Law" that has things related to where you got hit. It was an expansion for D&D.

[The Iron Toa]

I'm bad at research, and a quick search turned up nothing of use. Could you explain this system?

[Death of the Endless]

How about this?

Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Power, Strength, Toughness, Will

Expendable Stats (i.e. numbers which increase/decrease with use, damage, healing, etc.):

A standard hit point system would not be cinematic enough, I agree, but I strongly advise you against using a "Regional HP" system. I've thought of that before, and ended up realizing that:
1) It would be absurdly difficult to play. There are so many numbers to keep track of, and rules would have to be created dealing with when someone would die if they took A amount of damage to region B and C amount of damage to region D, etc.
2) Most actual beings can't take that much damage before dropping dead. You could ignore this and give each region a large amount of HP, but that would eliminate realism. On the other hand, giving each region a very small amount of HP would basically destroy the point of having a regional HP system.

I suggest that compromise, and use two stats: Armor and Vitality.

Armor basically represents what you'd expect. Until a character's Armor is reduced to 0, damage directed at the character reduces the Armor score. A character suffers no penalties from losing Armor.

Vitality represents the squishy bits beneath the metallic shell. When a character's Armor is reduced to 0, the damage directed at the character reduces the Vitality score. The max Vitality score is (normally) lower than the max Armor score, and a character suffers a -1 penalty to the [placeholder-1] stats for each point of Vitality lost. When a character's Vitality is reduced to 0, xe goes into a coma and must roll a d20 for stabilization each turn until xe rolls [placeholder-2] or above. If xe rolls below [placeholder-2], xe takes one point of damage that turn. If the character When a character's Vitality is reduced to [placeholder-3---a negative number], the character dies.

Elemental Energy would be one for Toa, Skakdi, and some others. Nothing special, just mana points. The max EE score would be determined by a dice roll/rolls and the Power score.

Also, it might be a good idea to make a list of people who have contributed so far:

The Iron Toa (Main Creator)
Toa Kaithas
Katuko
Toa Alaka

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 14 2012 - 09:10 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

I like your stats, except I think Power and max EE should be the same for all individuals of a certain type, with rare exceptions. That is, all Toa have the same amount of maximum Elemental Energy, unless they're enhanced by something like the Nui Stone. Likewise, every, say, Frostelus should have the same amount of power to draw on for its Rhotuka. But some Toa and Frostelus might have higher Will scores and be more skilled than others, allowing them to have finer control over their powers. Some species, though they have the same power stat, can't even draw on that power at all without training -- for example a Vortixx learning to fire shadow bolts like Roodaka. If this doesn't make sense, we can work out a compromise.

About hit points and stuff, I remembered D%... can't find that ampersand in the dark ... uh, D&D has a whole bunch of status effects, like paralyzed, flat-footed, nauseated (I think that was one of them). I don't mind not having complex hit locations, as long as the damage is specific enough so that if your character gets wounded in the legs, for example, he won't be able to move as well. Status effects should cover that, I guess.

[Death of the Endless]

We should probably just get rid of Power, in this case. I can't think of anything it could do that Will couldn't. How about max EE is the same among a species (excepting mutations), and Will is used in individual power descriptions to modify effects? For example: a fire bolt might deal 1d4 damage x the char's Will modifier.

The idea with the penalties for lost Vitality was to simulate the "not move as well"-type thing without getting too complicated. I don't want to make it so that an ordinary attack involves aiming for a certain region. That could get much, much too complicated. Perhaps there are a number of powers which allow a char to make a special attack which does so? For example, one which aims for the legs could introduce a "Slowed" status effect as well as dealing damage.

Oh, and I've decided to list confirmed features of the RPG too.

Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, (Power?), Strength, Toughness, Will
Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality, Elemental Energy

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 15 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[The Iron Toa]

Good so far. Will should be linked to Toughness in a resisting pain type of way, somehow. And your idea of Will increasing damage might work for some beings, but it's not what I had in mind for Toa. Rather, it would effect the precise and controlled use of elemental power. This, along with training, skill, and dexterity could help do more damage by improving the aim of the elemental attack. But any novice Toa's Nova Blast is as destructive as a veteran Toa's. But that veteran Toa could call upon a quarter of a Nova Blast's power and focus it upon one mighty foe, while the novice would lose control of that amount of energy. It would make sense for other beings, though, because their Will would help them tap into their inner powers. This ability to call upon all of one's inner power comes naturally to some beings, such as Toa, but not to others. Still making sense?

And of course the ability for any Toa to do a Nova Blast would make them very powerful, but remember:
1. Toa are very powerful.
2. Depending on the time, Toa might be rare. I imagine in some settings, they would be NPCs only or not even show up. I want to explore the other peoples of the Matoran Universe (and later Spherus Magna).
3. Any Toa who acts like a walking nuclear bomb will be an enemy to everyone, including other Toa. Not to mention such releases of power can harm those who risk them.

As for special aimed attacks, I'm sure D&D has a system for that, or a list of special moves to create certain status effects. If not, we could make our own. I'll take a look at it tomorrow.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Sep 14 2012 - 11:43 PM.

[Katuko]

In D&D, Will or similar is a stat that governs your brain strength or some such, influencing both spells and the ability to resist enemy Will abilities. Since BIONICLE has a lot of focus both on elemental powers and illusion/other powers, I believe it might be good to split the ability-related stats into two:

- Power, for determining the strength of regular fireballs and similar. Resistance to these would be based on the regular defense stat, perhaps the ability to dodge for the quicker ones (reflex save).
- Will, for focusing mental powers, Kanohi and to resist the influence of such powers. Illusion would be one, fear, anger, mind control, and so on.


When thinking up stats, I like to think "what can change?". Physical strength can be increased, giving you the ability to push heavier objects, carry more, and punch harder. However, attack power would not be based on strength alone. Weapons increase your ability to deal damage a lot. Bows would benefit slightly from strength (pull it harder), but not so much as skill with the weapon itself. Projectiles like a Skakdi's gun or a Toa's thrown elemental attack should probably not be influenced by physical strength at all.

Dexterity. Now, what does that mean? It usually means how fast you can run, coupled with how good your are at certain acts like balancing, dodging, sneaking stuff out of people's pockets, etc. In BIONICLE, we have the Mask of Speed, which allows you to run real fast, but you can't really use it for those other things. Of course, Dexterity can still have an effect on run speed, and the Kakama just boosts that modifier a lot.

Limb damage I think we should leave out, as it over-complicates things. It works better for video games, or for hardcore RPG players. The way I think it's usually done in systems without the mechanic is that the player declares his intention for striking a certain body part ("I aim my spell for his hand to knock the artifact away from him.") and the GM then thinks up the appropriate effects on the spot; like "on such a small target you have a -4 to hit, though still a 50% chance to strike the torso if you miss". Attack roll. If the attack hit, the GM might decide that yes, the artifact was knocked away, and the enemy now has a penalty on his sword attacks because his hand is singed. Tabletop RPGs are very flexible, so you don't need to make rules for absolutely everything.

A Nova Blast should, in my opinion, require several turns of charge-up, with the possibility of being interrupted by an attack in the middle of it. If it goes off, it blasts an area around the user with damage depending on their remaining energy. They take at least a portion of said damage to themselves, meaning that a powerful blast has a good chance of killing them; and in any case the ability should leave them at 0 energy left, possibly with other temporal exhaustion penalties too. Any mechanic that lets a player attempt a super-attack all the time is usually a bad mechanic.

[Death of the Endless]

If we do keep Power, then it should be one of the attributes, different for every individual. EE could still be the same for each species, The Iron Toa.

And I agree with Katuko that we should exercise extreme caution in using aimed attack systems (or, for that matter, much else taken directly from D&D). 3.5e D&D is possibly the most complicated game in the world, and it takes years of practice to be able to keep track of many of the rules. I don't think most people here (even the D&D players) would want to have to learn an RPG that complicated from scratch.

EDIT: Wait, I already said the second thing, didn't I?

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 15 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

What about Alignment? Should we have the Good/Evil and Chaotic/Lawful axes? And like I said Moral Light should be linked to alignment, but not completely, because beings can be evil and still have it.

I completely agree about strength having no effect on use of projectile weapons and elemental powers, with exceptions such as bows. I still like the idea that each species has a set amount of power, their full potential, but most beings need to train themselves to tap into that power. Rhotuka launchers, for example, would be powered by this. Artificial Rhotuka launchers could perhaps have their own energy source to boost it, while natural ones would be completely powered by the user's own energies. I'm pretty sure it was said that bigger, stronger (not just physically - more of a vital energy, so to speak) beings could launch more powerful spinners than beings like Matoran could.

[Death of the Endless]

1) As far as moral light goes, we're going to have to fudge it a bit to fit it into an RPG system. I think we should avoid any sort of D&D-esque alignment system, which is too restrictive to my mind. Moral light can be a stat on its own, and beings with less light are less moral. If a SL attempts a light drain, then it either succeeds (reducing light to 0 and granting shadow powers), succeeds partially (not affecting the light stat but granting minor shadow powers, a la Takanuva), or fails. Which of the three options occurs can be determined by a saving throw of some sort.

2) But if each species has a set amount of power, then that eliminates one possible aspect of character customization. The Power stat can represent their amount of training and talent, while the "full potential" thing could be simulated through the single EE score per species.

Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, (Power?), Strength, Toughness, Will
Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality, Elemental Energy

Contributors: The Iron Toa, Toa Kaithas, Katuko, Toa Alaka

[The Iron Toa]

1. How is an alignment system like that restrictive? Maybe we don't even need to keep much track of Moral Light - just when characters are evil enough to tap into their inner power, or have their light completely drained. Remember, the banishing of inner shadow the alternate universe Makuta did was never done in the main universe. And meditation and the knowledge of how to banish inner light or shadow is a major part. A hypothetical being that never commits a bad deed will not automatically become light-aligned, nor will a purely evil being possess powers over shadow without learning to use the darkness within them.

2. I get what you're saying. I still think the EE pool for Toa should be constant, but the Power stat for other beings could represent how much of their inner power they can tap into -- and therefore be partly based on Will.

Don't forget only certain beings have Elemental Energy. There should be a different version, too, the equivalent of the 'mana' or 'power' of other games. I'm not sure if Power then has to be an attribute of its own - it might just fit into this stat. We'll also need a Toa Energy stat for Toa, Turaga, and destined Matoran, as well as other, minor stats like movement speed. We could also use a Luck stat, to represent the effect of things like the Mask of Possibilities. So I was thinking:

Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Luck, Strength, Toughness, Will

Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality, Elemental Energy, Power

I'm not sure where Moral Light and Toa Energy would fit into these. They don't affect the being's body, intelligence, and willpower as often as the Attributes, and they also wouldn't change as often as the Expendable Stats.

[Death of the Endless]

1) I probably should have phrased that differently. I think a D&D-esque alignment system should be avoided because it puts too much of a set definition on morality. It's too easy to go down the "if it's Evil, it's okay to kill it" root. You read OotS, you should know that. Morality is determined through RPing.

Let's just kill Moral Light, actually. Draining effects don't need that stat in effect. Toa Energy doesn't have to be a stat---a Toa can just choose to sacrifice it and become a Turaga.

2) No Luck attribute. The Mask of Probabilities can be handled easily without a new, mostly useless stat getting in the way.

3) If "Power" would be an expendable stat, then it's exactly the same as EE and the two should be merged into a single "Energy" stat which exists for all beings. Katuko's idea for Power (and mine) was that it would be an attribute used to determine the damage done by supernatural attacks, how easy illusions were to see through, etc. Will would be used to determine resistance to illusions, etc., and control over Kanohi. If Power isn't an attribute, then its job can be taken over by Will. Trust me, I'm speaking as someone who has played Tabletop RPGs before (although I'm hardly a veteran).

Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, (Power?), Strength, Toughness, Will
Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality, Energy

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 15 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

1. Ah, I understand. But I think that way of thinking could be avoided if we avoided sticking each species into alignment categories. But it isn't essential, so we can decide how it will work or whether to include it at all later.

2. You're right. The Mask of Possibilities could be used to affect a roll, for example.

3. I would agree, except for one thing -- if certain abilities are powered by Power, what if a Toa has one of those abilities? It shouldn't be necessarily tied to his/her elemental energy.

And how about a Sanity stat? We have our share of crazies in the story, and while I don't expect it to be common to see Tren Krom, we do have psychic attacks (and look at what happened to Karzahni). If we don't have it as a stat, beings that have had their minds shredded should be encouraged to RP that way. Another thing we need to consider is Resistances. Matoran of certain elements have natural resistances to heat, cold, and electricity, and Makuta have Heat Resistance and Ice Resistance powers. Zyglak are resistant to all Toa elements. That might only apply to actual elemental attacks, though -- like they can cancel EE somehow.

[Death of the Endless]

3) Actually, how about this: only elemental abilities require "mana". The rest wouldn't be used as frequently anyway, so they can be limited by a certain number per day or by a roll-for-recharge effect if required. That way, we can just have Elemental Energy.

4) I like the idea of a Sanity stat, but it might be difficult to come up with rules on how it would actually affect gameplay.

5) Resistances are easy. We can just use types of damage like in D&D: ordinary (stab, slash, bludgeoning), fire, lightning, acid, poison, sonic, cold, etc. A character might be immune or only take half damage.

[Katuko]

Sanity is another thing that is better RP'd than put into numbers. In games like the Cthulhu-mythos ones it's mostly used to mess up your Will saves and make you prone to suicide due to fright/other effects when reduced.

A lot of special effects can just be added as special effects, they don't need an entire stat on their own. Insanity-inducing spells in D&D, for example, are just like any other lasting magic effect. resistances are not usually stats for everyone, they are just noted where applicable. For example: Fire Elemental (immune to fire). Whenever fire damage would be applied to that Elemental, it would be ignored. But everyone else would not have a stat on their character sheet saying "fire resistance: 0".

For powers, I still think this would be the best system (to reduce randomness too):
- Elemental attacks run off mana points of some sorts. More powerful attacks require more points spent. For example, a burst of flame takes 5, a Fireball 10, heating an object 2 per level of heat, etc. Elemental energy would recharge at a set rate. The damage and finesse of elemental attacks would be derived from attributes such as the mentioned Power stat, Will for keeping focus under pressure, Dexterity for being quick to aim, etc.

- Kanohi powers would get their effectiveness from a Mind stat, and each time they were use they would add mental fatigue of some sort. This fatigue makes the power gradually less effective with consecutive uses, and recharges like elemental energy. Mental fatigue would affect resistance to mental attacks as well, and perhaps influence the ability to aim or similar due to having a light headache at max fatigue.

- Non-elemental and non-mind powers would induce physical fatigue, again being able to be used without limits but also become less effective for each use unless given time to recharge. Being physically fatigued would limit one's physical attributes when it reaches the max point.

With three simple scores ("mana", phys.fat, ment.fat) you could easily have various powers that were free to use, but also tire out the character eventually. I imagine that characters would stay a set energy limit; but that they could spend skill points to make themselves more tailored towards for example melee combat or power usage, reducing the penalties for being fatigued but not necessarily increasing the effectiveness of said powers. On the other hand, someone who wanted a more powerful character could choose to ramp up Power and take lots of powerful skills, but maybe not have enough points left to also boost Fatigue resistance or Energy recharge.

Edited by Katuko, Sep 15 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Death of the Endless]

I agree with Katuko on most of the above, but I'm not sure whether phys. fat. and ment. fat. would be a good idea. Again, it could get very confusing and complicated to determine what affects what. We should keep elemental energy, at least, and I could deal with the use of ment. fat. Phys. fat., I think, would be too difficult to keep track of (Does running or walking reduce it? What about melee attacks? Usage of Skills like jumping or tumbling?)

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 15 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[Katuko]

Excessive use might perhaps do so. But I'd say that it would be there mostly to limit the use of special moves, such as for example Cleave (to use another D&D example). Cleave is described as follows:

If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Great Cleave, on the other hand, has no per-round limit. I imagine that if Cleave was added into this BIONICLE system, with my fatigue suggestion too, then the description of Cleave would be appended with "You can use this ability once per round for free. For each successive use, you are afflicted with fatigue, With 1 for the first Cleave, 2 for the next, then 3, and so on. If Fatigue would exceed maximum after a Cleave, the skill can not be used."

Great Cleave would then be retooled to just have its regular damage bonus and no more per-round usage bonuses; or perhaps it would be scrapped altogether.

Regular attacks, running, jumping, etc. would only matter if the GM decides you've been doing so for long enough to start feeling tired. BIONICLE characters have more stamina than us, after all.

Edited by Katuko, Sep 15 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Actually, I like Katuko's ideas. Though I think all powers should deal at least a small amount of mental fatigue, and so would suffering pain. As I was saying, Will would affect just how much these affected your mind. And you're right, insanity can be expressed by roleplaying in conjunction with damage to Will. And it's good that there's a resistance system to work with. Now, can we get an idea of what these Attributes' numerical values will be? It's usually 1-20, right? If so, here's my first guess for a few characters:

A typical Ta-Matoran
Chr 14 (They tend to be leaders, so I'm thinking higher than average)
Dex 6 (Matoran generally are stocky and not very agile)
Int 10 (Not known for being especially clever or stupid)
Strength 8 (I'm especially unsure about this one. Most beings are bigger, but Matoran are meant to be industrious workers, and are a lot stronger than they look.)
Toughness 8 (Same as strength - they're small, but tougher than they look)
Will 12 (Like charisma, they tend to be leaders and seem to be quite willful)

A Ga-Matoran:
Chr 12 (Not as leaderlike as Ta-Matoran, but the Toa of Water help keep their teams together)
Dex 6, with a bonus (or less of a penalty) in water
Int 12 (The Ga-Matoran in Metru Nui were teachers, so I'm thinking a little higher than average)
Strength 8
Toughness 8
Will 10 (Maybe less, but I'm guessing average)

A Le-Matoran
Chr 11 (Can be friendly, but also sort of off-putting or annoying. I'm thinking of Nidhiki and Matau for that.)
Dex 10, with a bonus in trees
Int 10
Strength 8
Toughness 8
Will 10

A Po-Matoran
Chr 12 (Friendly sort)
Dex 6
Int 8 (Po-Matoran have a reputation for being kind of dumb)
Strength 12 (Po-Matoran are especially strong)
Toughness 8 (might tend to be higher if they're laborers)
Will 10 (Though their minds might not be as sharp, I think they would have a stubbornness that would keep their Will on par with others')

A Ko-Matoran
Chr 5 (Or something appropriately below average)
Dex 6
Int 14 (Ko-Matoran are known for their intelligence)
Strength 8
Toughness 8
Will 10

An Onu-Matoran
Chr 10
Dex 5 (Onu-Matoran are even stockier)
Int 13 (Onu-Matoran are also known for being clever)
Strength 8 (As a default. Those that were miners would have greater strength)
Toughness 8 (Like Po-Matoran, physical labor could increase this)
Will 10

A Toa of Fire:
Chr 12
Dex 12
Int 10
Strength 14
Toughness 12
Will 14

A Vortixx of some authority (not a factory worker):

Chr 12
Dex 14
Int 12
Strength 12
Toughness 10
Will 12

A Steltian laborer:

Chr 5
Dex 4
Int 7 (Krekka's would probably be even lower, like 4)
Strength 17
Toughness 16
Will 5

These numbers are probably pretty far off the mark. I hope I had sort of the right idea, though. What do you guys think?

Oh, I just remembered D&D has size categories for beings. To make this more in the Bionicle theme, I say that our size categories should be based on Bio (which is 4.5 feet). If the upper limit for Small would be 1 bio, Medium would be 1-2, Large would be 2-... 4 I guess. Sure. So...

Fine: Less than 1/8 bio
Diminutive: 1/8 - 1/4 bio
Tiny: 1/4 - 1/2 bio
Small 1/2 - 1 bio
Medium 1-2 bio
Large 2-4 bio
Huge 4-8 bio
Gargantuan 8-16 bio
Colossal Greater than 16 bio

I think that's pretty close to the original sizes.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Sep 15 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Death of the Endless]

The sizes are good. The attributes are a little low. Generally, with attributes:

1-2 = Absurdly bad; in the case of Intelligence, non-sentient
3-5 = Abysmal
6-8 = Bad
9-10 = Slightly below average
11-12 = Average
13-15 = Good
16-18 = Great
19+ = Awesome

How about we have a single ment/phys fatigue stat: Endurance? After all, physical and mental fatigue nearly always overlap. Endurance would be expended when using non-elemental powers and probably when running. I'm sorry, but the idea with mental fatigue coming with Kanohi use AND pain AND every power would be too difficult to keep track of---not suitable for a tabletop game. Endurance could take a penalty for every Vitality point lost, though. Also, I dislike the idea of having high=good and low=good expendable stats in the same game. Again, too difficult to keep track of.
---
Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Power, Strength, Toughness, Will
Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality, Elemental Energy, (Endurance / M/F Fatigues?)
Size Categories: Fine (1/8 bio), Diminutive (1/8-1/4), Tiny (1/4-1/2), Small(1/2-1), Medium(1-2), Large (2-4), Huge (4-8), Gargantuan (8-16), Colossal (16+)

Contributors: The Iron Toa, Toa Kaithas, Katuko, Toa Alaka

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 15 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

That Endurance stat idea makes sense -- not the same as physical damage, but rather how much exertion/pain/mental strain you can bear before you can't do any more or pass out. And I thought 10 was average. Can certain creatures have stats over 20? Like a dragon or really strong giant or something? We could make the physical stats of Matoran the average, but I thought they would be slightly below average considering how many bigger, stronger beings there are. There are smaller Rahi, but I don't think there are enough for them to need a wide range of physical stats.

[Death of the Endless]

Yeah, the attributes you put before are probably fine, actually. Certainly, many of the more powerful beings would have some attributes over twenty---Makuta, for example, or dragons like the Tahtorak or Kanohi Dragon. Final confirmation: Are we including Power as an attribute or handing over its potential effects to Will and Toughness?

---
Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Power, Strength, Toughness, Will
Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality, Elemental Energy, Endurance
Size Categories: Fine (1/8 bio), Diminutive (1/8-1/4), Tiny (1/4-1/2), Small(1/2-1), Medium(1-2), Large (2-4), Huge (4-8), Gargantuan (8-16), Colossal (16+)

Contributors: The Iron Toa, Toa Kaithas, Katuko, Toa Alaka

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 15 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

If you mean Power as a 'mana' value, I think we only need that as Elemental Energy. Other powers can cost Endurance, as you said, and endurance could be based on both Toughness and Will. And it's good to know 20 isn't the absolute limit. Now that I think about it, I actually knew that, but I guess I forgot. But I'm guessing most beings (the playable races, assuming Makuta can't be PCs) should have values under twenty.

Now, about Moral Light, I realized we could use it as the basis for an alignment system, but we need to keep a couple things in mind. In the main universe, no one gained became a being of pure Moral Light, so I'd say we make that impossible, except for in alternate universes, and anyway it would be extremely difficult. Most beings don't know how to purge their Light or Shadow in the first place. Evil beings with the will and the knowledge can tap into their inner Shadow (how much would be based on Will, Endurance, and how much Moral Shadow they have), but this doesn't necessarily give them the element of Shadow -- that's just for beings whose light has been completely drained (or could already use Elemental Shadow). The ability to detect how much Moral Light/Shadow a being has is rare, and the only known being with that power is Keetongu. No flinging Detect Evil spells around in Bionicle.

So let me sum up all everything that we'll want to keep track of (that I can think of) for a particular character, not including personality, backstory, etc.

Name
Species and Subspecies
Gender (Big 'duh' to all of those)
Age (This probably won't come up in normal life in the MU, given their lifespans. But there is artificial aging, and it could be relevant in a Spherus Magna story. Perhaps it needn't be a number.)
Apparel and equipment
Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, Strength, Toughness, Will
Expendable Stats: Armor, Vitality (hitpoints - I wouldn't mind just calling it hitpoints, but either's good), Endurance, Elemental Energy (only Toa, Turaga, and certain other beings such as elemental entities)
Resistances: Stabbing, slashing, crushing (more inclusive than bludgeoning, I'd say), heat, electricity, acid, poison, sonic, cold, elemental (resistance that applies to any EE attack but only EE -- that is, a Toa of Fire's fire, but not a natural fire), light, shadow... maybe one for unspecified energies, such as a Guurahk's disintegration power and some Rhotuka? There are probably more we could come up with, too.
Other stats:
Moral Light (which would express itself as a simple good/neutral/bad alignment in most cases)
Toa Energy (Toa, Turaga, and destined Matoran only)
Attack speed
Movement speed

I kind of lost my train of thought, and I can't think of anything else now. There's probably something obvious missing.

[Death of the Endless]

1) I don't mean Power as a mana value, I mean it as a basic attribute. Same as Will, Strength, etc. Power is what determines the strength of a Toa or other creature's supernatural attacks. For example, a fire bolt might deal 1d4 x [Power modifier] damage. If Power doesn't exist, that role would be taken over by Will in some cases and by Toughness in others. This is what I have been trying to say pretty much since my first post here.

2) I still don't really like Moral Light. How exactly would we keep track of all these effects?

Name: Yup.
Species and Subspecies: Yup.
Gender: Yup.
Age: Should be expressed in categories rather than numbers. That way, people can use the same system whether playing a "classic" super-long lifespan campaign or a humanized one.
Apparel and Equipment: Let's just call this "Equipment". Most Bionicle characters don't wear clothes, so "Apparel" could get confusing.
Attributes: Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence, POWER, Strength, Toughness, Will.
Expendable Stats: All good. I'd rather call it Vitality, which seems more original and reflects the meaning better (after all, in this case the Armor is a form of hit point too).
Resistances: I don't think there's much point to Stabbing, Slashing and Bludgeoning resistances when we can just give the creature a giant Armor score instead. As for the others: Heat, Electricity, Acid, Poison, Sonic, Cold, Light, Shadow, Elemental, Rhotuka, perhaps? But I'm not sure we'd ever have anything to resist the Rhotuka.
Moral Light: I don't like it. But if it's just a simple alignment system, then just call it "Alignment".
Toa Energy: No. Nothing would ever be done with it!
Attack Speed: ...does not exist in tabletop RPGs. All attacks are automatic. Don't bother trying to come up with something for this one. I'm not budging.
Movement Speed: Let's just call it "Speed". There will have to be different kinds: Land, Swim, Burrow, Climb, Arboreal (hopping from tree to tree). Most creatures only have a Land speed, and have to make a Skill check to swim or climb. Speed can be a base species number of feet (bio is too large) plus the character's Dex modifier.

And yes, there are six things missing:

Levels: Do we want levels? I'd vote for a lack of them, which is more cinematic and doesn't end up making characters unplayably powerful. Perhaps we could have a "training" mechanic which allows a character to become stronger in a specific area if it is plot-relevant.
Attack Rolls: When a character attacks, xe makes an Attack Roll to determine whether the attack hits. This is a roll of 1d20 + a modifier of some sort. Typically, part of this modifier will be the Str modifier (for melee) or Dex modifier (for ranged). In 3.5e D&D, there is also a "Base Attack Bonus" applied to both melee and ranged which represents combat training. The Attack Roll also takes a penalty if being done with a weapon the char is not proficient with. In 4e D&D, there is no Base Attack Bonus, but instead there are proficiency bonuses as opposed to non-proficiency penalties.
Defenses: For an attack to hit, the attack roll has to meet or exceed the target's Defenses. These are three numbers: one for physical attacks, one for mental attacks, and one for poison or disease.
Skills: Characters aren't going to spend all of their time decapitating monsters. There will be a list of skills (e.g. Jump, Acrobatics, Forage, Knowledge: Nature), each one associated with a certain Attribute. Characters roll 1d20 (this is called a "skill check") when using one of these skills, and add the modifier of the skill's associated Attribute to their roll. During character creation, a certain amount of skill points is given to a player to spend on various skills. Skill points spent on a skill are added to the 1d20 roll when a skill check occurs.
Powers: Self-explanatory. Extra tricks and actions beyond basic melee and ranged attacks. For example, the Cleave which Katuko mentioned, and all elemental abilities.
Feats: While powers are something your character does, feats are just extra things about your character that provide more customization. For example, there might be a feat which increases your speed, representing that your character is an unusually fast runner.

Blagh, I'm not being very articulate, am I?

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 16 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Of course I forgot some important things. Now how about a Wisdom stat? I'm not sure exactly how it would be used, but it does sound like you'd expect a Turaga character to have a lot of. I like the Endurance value you came up with, and I think it makes a (non-EE) Power stat unnecessary. The idea is mental and physical stress, including the use of such powers, deals Endurance damage. Your Will and Toughness would control both how much Endurance you can expend on a 'magic' attack and how much Endurance you have in total. Makes sense?

I guess the only thing we need an Alignment system for is to see if characters are evil enough to use their inner shadow (if they know the technique), and if characters like Keetongu would see them as evil. I don't mind if it's as simple as that, but I still think we need that much. Toa Energy, I admit, would not come up much, but it's still important (unless Toa are never PCs). A Toa could use it to bring new Toa into being, perform miraculous healing... I'm not sure what else it could do, but when it gets used, it's a big deal. It also determines in part when a Toa becomes a Turaga.

As for Attack Speed, alright, I didn't know that, and I like your categories for movement speed. I'm leaning against having levels if we can come up with another way to do it. Feats, traits, whatever you want to call them - that sounds good. And skills too. I'll need help with Attack Rolls and Defense, as how they work isn't that clear to me. Armor could be more resistant to crushing, piercing, and slashing -- but since it's all pretty much the same armor, maybe different values for those resistances aren't necessary after all. Rhotuka resistance could fit into the generic energy resistance. I'm not sure what to call it, though... it could just be called Energy Resistance but we already have Heat, Light, and EE resistance, which makes it not sound like the best choice.

I'm thinking of a way EE/Endurance expenditure will affect the potency of powers, but I don't have time to post it now. I will as soon as I can.

[BenLuke]

Of course I forgot some important things. Now how about a Wisdom stat? I'm not sure exactly how it would be used, but it does sound like you'd expect a Turaga character to have a lot of.

Coming up with a stat and then thinking about what it does seems a bit. . . backwards.

Personally, this seems a bit overly D&D derivative. Other role-playing systems exist, some of them more focused and even less obtuse .

[Katuko]

I agree with BenLuke. When designing a game, you'll want to think about what the player will be doing, and then what stats that would fit said gameplay. If I may use my own game as an example again: I ditched such stats as "luck" and "wisdom" because they would have no real purpose. Similarly, Intelligence did not logically fit in anywhere. Instead, I went with Strength (physical attack modifier), Vitality (health), Dexterity (speed, movement), Element (special power modifier) and Mind (mental power modifier). Raising strength influences weapon damage , primarily. Element increases your attack power with elemental and some other powers, and affects your maximum energy pool. Mind lets you use Kanohi to a greater extent, influences some other powers (like Rahkshi of Fear, for example) and increases your maximum energy pool even further.

I've been thinking of retooling the stats of my game at some point, though mostly because min/maxing some stats is more effective than others; and I'm not sure if they give the desired effect compared to making the stats less relevant and adding more describing perks/feats. Instead of having a player weigh strength vs dexterity, I might just have a feat settings in the vein of the archetypes "Mighty Glacier", "Fragile Speedster"... with each setting having a slider for adjusting the strength-vs-speed tradeoff and such.

That's a bit off-topic, however. My point is that for a stat to work, it must be prevalent within the gameplay but also not overshadow it. If the use of melee makes powers completely useless, for example, or if the "magic"-related stats don't influence the "magic" enough to make a difference, then the system needs to be rewritten.

Take Skyrim, for example: Destruction magic is not very balanced. Leveling your One-Handed weapon skill from 1 to 100 makes your basic melee attacks progressively stronger. While getting better gear is still important, you can handle yourself fine with the same sword over many levels, especially if you also use Smithing to improve it. On the other hand, Destruction magic has a set damage output, and your skill level only dictates what spells you can learn. This is like in D&D, so you'd just get yourself more powerful spells, right? Well, ignoring the lack of usability from top-level spells compared to top-level melee gear; there are still some design flaws:

1) Unlike D&D, your available mana only increases per level if you choose it to do so. D&D has it set: you get X number of spell slots per level and X more HP. Skyrim has you choose. If, as a mage, you don't pick a lot of magicka+, or if you don't Smith yourself cost-reducing gear, then you'll be unable to cast high-level spells at all.
2) Top-level mages are still rather squishy. In D&D you would generally be toting effective spells from all kinds of schools, such as Stoneskin and Fire Shield in addition to the offensive magic, but Skyrim mages have the trouble of likely being very low level in some schools and high in others. As such, splitting your training between different schools can actually leave you facing high-level foes with only mid-level magic.

D&D, on the other hand, may have over-compensated. It is true that fighters will be better on early levels due to more obvious strength increases, but once a wizard reaches a mid-high level he or she becomes death incarnate due to their sheer versatility and powerful magic. Sure, fighters and archers have no restrictions on spell slots or anything, but when you're packing a magical nuke in each slot then you don't need all that many anyways.

I guess the end question here is: In a BIONICLE RPG, would you do like MNOG and focus mostly on melee with powers as supplementary material; would you make the fantastic and varied powers something that always trumps melee until the energy runs out; or would you seek what I'd recommend: a healthy balance? Toa VS Piraka come to mind as a good example, where both sides engaged in close-range combat but used their powers to mix things up in the middle of it. Personally I love that kinda fight.

[Death of the Endless]

1) The Iron Toa, I think you still don't understand what I mean by Power. POWER WOULD NOT BE AN EXPENDABLE STAT. I have said that many times now. It would be an Attribute, which has a specific meaning in this context: one of a small number of stats, with scores usually 1-20, which represent a character's level of ability in a given area and determine many other scores in the game through modifiers. The other Attributes are Charisma, Dexterity, Intelligence Strength, Toughness, and Will. Only those are Attributes. I have never intended Power to be any sort of mana or expendable stat. Or anything like that. I'm sorry if I'm seeming a bit aggressive (or a lot aggressive) here, but I feel like I need to be as clear as possible.

2) I don't think we need Wisdom. It's covered plenty by Intelligence and Will. (Of course, maybe we should change Intelligence to Mind because of this. No gameplay difference, just sounds more inclusive of Wisdom-y stuff).

3) It's true that this is very D&D-derivative, but considering that Iron Toa has never played a tabletop RPG and I've only played a bit of D&D (and learned a little about Paranoia), you can't really expect anything different.

4) Given that this is a tabletop RPG, we'll need to be able to simulate both melee and powers, since both are prominent within the universe of Bionicle. However, it might be a good idea to make the powers of Toa, for example, a tad less extensive than they are in canon, or else melee will be overshadowed.

Oh, and alignments are fine, I guess.

Edited by Toa Alaka, Sep 16 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Sorry. I get your meaning about Power as an Attribute. But I think we don't need it. Special powers would either cost Endurance (meaning they deal fatigue -- how much depends on Will, Toughness, training, etc) or Elemental Energy. Perhaps it would be easier if we referred to the amount of Endurance expended for an attack as Power, or maybe that would make things more complicated.

I just realized we might actually want to keep track of Moral Shadow so we can know how much of it evil characters have available to use for shadow powers. Personally, I'm not a fan of Moral Light/Shadow, but I want to stick to the lore and include all aspects of it. Still, I'm all for simplifying it, to a reasonable degree.

[BenLuke]

3) It's true that this is very D&D-derivative, but considering that Iron Toa has never played a tabletop RPG and I've only played a bit of D&D (and learned a little about Paranoia), you can't really expect anything different.

I've never played a tabletop RPG either, actually, I've just read a little on the subject. You can find the basics of a lot of rulesets online, and at least looking into multiple sources for idea can't hurt.

Unfortunately, all of my idea all for streamline, point buy systems for use in forum RPs, so I'm not sure how well I can help with what you guys have come up with so far. I'll still chine in if I get any ideas, thought.

Edited by BenLuke-116, Sep 16 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Sorry, I accidentally skipped over BenLuke and Katuko's posts last time I posted! But I've read them now.

I still think we need to keep Intelligence in some form. True, it will no longer directly influence 'spells' as in D&D. But we could use it for things like learning skills, and a (probably GM-assisted) bonus to figuring out riddles and such. But if it would work just as well combined into a Mind stat, I wouldn't, uh, 'mind'. Charisma I think would be equally mental and physical. For an example of how it can be physically based, consider the Barraki. Once proud, imposing warlords, then they were turned into creepy sea monsters. It wasn't their minds that were changed by the mutagen (not including psychological effects because of the mutation).

Anyway, I just typed up my idea of how special powers should work while the website was unavailable:

Toa, Turaga, Makuta (I think), Skakdi, Elemental Entities, and perhaps other beings have EE. Each member of a species (or type, in the case of Toa and Turaga) has the same amount.

Every being also has a stat called Endurance. This is a measure of how much strain or suffering they can endure before passing out. It is different from Vitality, which measures actual physical damage, but the pain would also deal Endurance damage.

Beings with the knowledge and/or weapons to channel their inner energies can do so, but this costs Endurance (as it's a draining physical and mental effort). How much Endurance they have and/or how quickly it is expended will depend on their Will and Toughness. (I'm not yet sure exactly how these stats will affect Endurance.)

Will, along with training/practice/skill, will also allow beings to have a finer control over the amount of energy they use, whether it is EE or Endurance-costing power. Maybe we could call that Vital Energy, actually? The amount of energy used will affect the following factors:

Intensity -- In the case of damage-dealing effects, how much damage it does, and the same goes for the effectiveness of healing. For non-damage dealing attacks, such as paralysis, a higher Intensity would give a higher chance of overcoming the target's defenses/resistances. (I'm not clear on how that would work yet, but I think it would be something like requiring a higher saving throw.) And finally, Intensity would also have other effects such as the brightness of Light, Fire, or Plasma.

Duration -- For sustained us of an element (such as a wall of flame) how long that would last, for other effects such as paralysis, how long that lasts.

Area -- The size of the power's area of effect, if applicable. Of course, some things such as most Rhotuka will be single target only.

Range -- How far the power reaches -- for energy projectiles, how far they fly, for elemental manipulation, how far the caster's control reaches.

Some of these values will be fixed (a particular power might always have the same intensity, or duration, or area of effect, or range). For those that can vary, again, Will and skill give more control over what can and can't be done.

Channeling more energy will require more time, Will, and practice to keep aimed. I'll need help working out the specifics here, too. But I'm thinking if your concentration is broken while you're focusing energy, you will either suffer a penalty to aim or simply release all the energy as an area of effect attack around you. What happens would depend on how much energy you were handling, and again your Will and skill. Will and skill would also decrease the time it takes per amount of energy, and perhaps give some sort of bonus to rolls against concentration being broken.

I hope that won't be too complicated. Keep in mind this system could do away with a lot of spells if done right. A Toa of Fire wouldn't need to cast 'Lesser Fireball' or 'Greater Fireball', he could just channel more EE.

[Death of the Endless]

You still don't understand what I mean by Power as an attribute, but it doesn't matter since you've found a way around its absence that I actually like better. So forget about Power. No Power.

I really like this system. Duration should be nearly always unalterable, I think, as should Area. Anyway, how about this? Multiply the char's Will modifier by 2. This is xir variability, or the number of points of Endurance/EE xe can add to a power's base cost. Intensity will usually be measured as 1dX x (End/EE cost)/2. I don't think we should have channeling more energy take more time; time is difficult to simulate in RPGs and makes things too complicated.

Other than that, I don't have much to add to your special Power system. It's very good.

Endurance damage from pain can be simulated through a char losing 1 Endurance every time xe loses a point of Vitality.

Endurance and EE can go under the heading of Energy; Armor and Vitality can go under the heading of Hit Points.

Oh, and we might want to think about how Endurance is regained. How about this: every round one is under one's max Endurance, one regains one point of Endurance. Outside of combat (which is where rounds show up), one regains a certain amount of Endurance every...hour? Hmmm. Maybe we should just have people regain all Endurance once the combat is over. Actually, that makes more sense. After all, it doesn't take very long to catch one's breath.

All EE is regained by spending half an hour in-game without combat in physical contact with one's element. We'll determine specifically how this is accomplished with Gravity or Psionics elementals, etc., at a later date.

[The Iron Toa]

Sorry I never understood what you meant about Power, but we'll forget about it in terms of using it as an Attribute.

I'm glad my idea isn't too complicated. I was thinking Duration and Area would be relevant most often in sustained elemental attacks. Elemental powers and some other powers should have AoE abilities, and Duration would also be important part of the potency of debuffs (again, like paralysis).

For clarity and simplicity, I am going to use the word Power to mean power channeled, encompassing both power from EE and power that costs Endurance. I am also going to call the modifier based on a combination of Will and skill (either a sum or a multiple of the two values) Finesse. We can do away with these terms or change the name later, for now I need them for an example.

Some powers (such as use of elements) should have no base cost -- as long as the character has the skill, he or she should be able to use the minimum amount of power possible. But again, such fine control of powers depends on Finesse. I think we're going to need channel time, this will be a major factor in preventing a Toa from starting and ending a fight with a Nova Blast. Also, most powers will suffer a loss of accuracy from being charged. I agree it sounds kind of complicated, but I think it should be alright. Maybe putting it into the form of some equations will help:

Finesse = Will * Skill or Will + Skill

I'm not sure what would work best. I'm leaning in the direction of a sum, to keep the number from getting too big at higher levels. It might require a bit of testing to figure it out.

Accuracy Penalty = W * Power^2 / (X * Channel Time * Finesse)

All the letter variables are constants that can be determined later (we can even set them to one or zero to make them unnecessary). Power will contribute to the penalty exponentially, because large amounts of power should be very hard to control.

If Accuracy Penalty > Finesse * Y, the power channeled will be released as an instantaneous AoE of random Area and Intensity. Again, Z is a constant that we can define later - the idea is there is a threshold directly based on Finesse, under which it's no longer a controlled attack at all. In certain cases, like if the caster meant to release an uncontrolled blast he could get a bonus to his Defense or Saving Throw or whatever you call it. For example, a Toa releasing a Nova Blast would still have to defend himself against his own uncontrolled attack, but as he was expecting it, he would get a bonus. A Toa charging up his power that gets suddenly interrupted would not be prepared and get no bonus to defense.

Power = Intensity * Duration * Area * Ranged * Z

Meaning as one of the values on the right increases, the other decrease, or more Power must be expended.

I hope that made it a little easier. I'll post more equations when I think of them.

[Death of the Endless]

I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. The equations just made it worse. Sorry, I know this is an extremely blunt way of putting it. We need the powers to be simpler. A lot simpler.

The base cost is necessary because some powers are obviously much more, well, powerful than others. They should cost more EE, in theory.