450 replies to this topic

[bonesiii]

I feel like what you just said should be pinned on the first post. Yes, I guess I didn't much think about the fact that death, in itself, is almost non-existent in Bionicle. Okay, that might be a bit extreme, but like you said, there really aren't that many perminent cases of death at all.

Yes, now I do see the increased potential of new story lines (heres to 2014!).

And we could say, I think, that this actually has made Matoro's sacrifice even more meaningful if we're going to think like that, just to add.

OK, so I finished Dark Destiny for probably the 10th time today, and I might have found something. When the Toa Inika first came out of their canisters, they lifted their weapons to the sky and fired off a bolt of lightning. When they did that, six stars were created and fell into orbit around the Red Star. Could that be relevant somehow?

I noticed that too recently. It probably is, but it may just be symbolic of their Toa origin being from the Red Star.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

OK, so I finished Dark Destiny for probably the 10th time today, and I might have found something. When the Toa Inika first came out of their canisters, they lifted their weapons to the sky and fired off a bolt of lightning. When they did that, six stars were created and fell into orbit around the Red Star. Could that be relevant somehow?

I noticed that too recently. It probably is, but it may just be symbolic of their Toa origin being from the Red Star.

Yes, but since when did lightning bolts turn into celestial objects? Even for BIONICLE physics, that seems a little stretched; unless the Star made them or something of the like.

Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon, Oct 23 2012 - 04:28 PM.

[bonesiii]

OK, so I finished Dark Destiny for probably the 10th time today, and I might have found something. When the Toa Inika first came out of their canisters, they lifted their weapons to the sky and fired off a bolt of lightning. When they did that, six stars were created and fell into orbit around the Red Star. Could that be relevant somehow?

I noticed that too recently. It probably is, but it may just be symbolic of their Toa origin being from the Red Star.

Yes, but since when did lightning bolts turn into celestial objects? Even for BIONICLE physics, that seems a little stretched; unless the Star made them or something of the like.

Well... since lightning turned Matoran into Toa?

Toa Stars are standard Bionicle physics, they're just not usually made by that particular action exactly and the circling of the Red Star is different.

[fishers64]

Maybe it's just a bit of leftover energy involved in the Toa-izing that became little alive glowy things.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

OK, so I finished Dark Destiny for probably the 10th time today, and I might have found something. When the Toa Inika first came out of their canisters, they lifted their weapons to the sky and fired off a bolt of lightning. When they did that, six stars were created and fell into orbit around the Red Star. Could that be relevant somehow?

I noticed that too recently. It probably is, but it may just be symbolic of their Toa origin being from the Red Star.

Yes, but since when did lightning bolts turn into celestial objects? Even for BIONICLE physics, that seems a little stretched; unless the Star made them or something of the like.

Well... since lightning turned Matoran into Toa?

Toa Stars are standard Bionicle physics, they're just not usually made by that particular action exactly and the circling of the Red Star is different.

Yes, but I figured the toa stars were more in-robot standard and the ones in MoL were just artistic license.

Maybe it's just a bit of leftover energy involved in the Toa-izing that became little alive glowy things.

Well, if the masks didn't turn into alive kanohi, I would have dismissed that as plausible, lol, but unlikely. However, it could be possible...

[bonesiii]

No, the MOL ones are canon too. See here:

http://biosector01.c...php/Spirit_Star

There's really no reason for them to be only in the MU. Perhaps you were thinking they were part of the sky illusions, but it seems clear they are not. They are basically hovering orbs of energy.

We don't really know much beyond that; why are they there and is there something that "polices" them? IMO it's probably just a destiny symbolism thing that both the robot and the RS can handle. Might be related to their automatic recharging of elemental energy; a sort of mirror function to channel energy to them, kind of like a satellite phone.

[fishers64]

Maybe it's just a bit of leftover energy involved in the Toa-izing that became little alive glowy things.

Well, if the masks didn't turn into alive kanohi, I would have dismissed that as plausible, lol, but unlikely. However, it could be possible...

I was just speculating off my theory a few pages back that the RS shot Life energy at the Toa Inika to make them Toa instead of Toa energy. Leftover life energy would transmute to "living lightening" --> "living little stars". Plus also that is the only time we see those Toa launching pure lightning as opposed to lightning mixed with their element. So that is not the only evidence for that hypothesis.

***

Another creepy speculation. Things that are a container for Life energy in the Bionicle Universe are, well, alive. (Like the Mask of Life...which is proof that Life energy brings characters back from the dead, which the Red Star does, so it might have Life energy...). But when Pohatu touched the walls of the RS, they were not alive. So the alive portion of the RS is somewhere else, somebody killed the Red Star, the Red Star is dying... That could be why the RS isn't exactly teleporting dead bodies right now.

I don't know how long the thing has been "dead". But knowing the GBs and their propensity to accidently create sapient life, somebody might have been evil...but now I'm really speculating.

[Axonn's Fury]

Another creepy speculation. Things that are a container for Life energy in the Bionicle Universe are, well, alive. (Like the Mask of Life...which is proof that Life energy brings characters back from the dead, which the Red Star does, so it might have Life energy...). But when Pohatu touched the walls of the RS, they were not alive. So the alive portion of the RS is somewhere else, somebody killed the Red Star, the Red Star is dying... That could be why the RS isn't exactly teleporting dead bodies right now.

I don't know how long the thing has been "dead". But knowing the GBs and their propensity to accidently create sapient life, somebody might have been evil...but now I'm really speculating.

So you're saying the reason the RS cannot teleport beings out, is because the alive segment of itself is elsewhere?

Hm.. That is actually quite intriguing. What type of 'alive' do you think it might be? Like a being, a mask, an entity?


- Taka

[Dual Matrix]

I think it is was missing energy because of the great cataclysm, so it couldn't revive the beings anymore, and the beings alive inside the star slowly started to die (and sometime during the dark time some kestora migrated to the star) but when the robot whoke up it recieved again it's energy and began reviving the first being who died after the great cataclysm (Marvah).

Bat the teleporter back was broken so the beings couldn't be sent back

[fishers64]

Another creepy speculation. Things that are a container for Life energy in the Bionicle Universe are, well, alive. (Like the Mask of Life...which is proof that Life energy brings characters back from the dead, which the Red Star does, so it might have Life energy...). But when Pohatu touched the walls of the RS, they were not alive. So the alive portion of the RS is somewhere else, somebody killed the Red Star, the Red Star is dying... That could be why the RS isn't exactly teleporting dead bodies right now.

I don't know how long the thing has been "dead". But knowing the GBs and their propensity to accidently create sapient life, somebody might have been evil...but now I'm really speculating.

So you're saying the reason the RS cannot teleport beings out, is because the alive segment of itself is elsewhere?

Hm.. That is actually quite intriguing. What type of 'alive' do you think it might be? Like a being, a mask, an entity?

- Taka

No, actually, I was not, but that's a good theory that I hadn't thought about. I was thinking that the living part of the Star could be in a section that Pohatu and Kopaka hadn't gone to yet.

As for how it would be alive, I'm thinking the way the Mask of Life is alive.

[toa kopaka4372]

I thought that with the new information, I might as well make a list the MU characters who are confirmed deceased; they were never revived.

Ancient
Antroz
Bitil
Carapar
Chirox
Gorast
Icarax
Karzahni (Being)
Karzahni (Plant)
Kojol
Krekka
Krika
Makuta of Stelt
Matoro
Morbuzakh
Mutran
Nidhiki
Spiriah
Teridax
Tren Krom
Tridax
Vamprah

Hydraxon and Botar are confirmed alive, I think, and maybe Lhikan. We'll see about the rest (most of their causes of deaths are unknown, so...).

[The_Didact]

I thought that with the new information, I might as well make a list the MU characters who are confirmed deceased; they were never revived.
Karzahni (Being)

I think Karzahni (Being) also is in the Red Star; he only fell in the Iron Canyon

[Pikiru]

So if all beings in the Matoran Universe go to the Red Star when they die and come back, why should any one be sad if someone dies?

Picture this example: There are three Matoran. We will call them Matoran 1 Matoran 2 and Matoran 3. Then Matoran 1 dies (through Rahi attack or something).

Matoran 2: "oh no he dead!"

Matoran 3: "nah he will be back in a week"

Matoran 2: "oh yah forgot about that"

Why isn't this the case when any buddy dies in the MU?

Or did the Red Star not work from the beginning, so no one came back to the MU? If this is the case then my point above is rendered moot (I think).

[The_Didact]

So if all beings in the Matoran Universe go to the Red Star when they die and come back, why should any one be sad if someone dies?

Picture this example: There are three Matoran. We will call them Matoran 1 Matoran 2 and Matoran 3. Then Matoran 1 dies (through Rahi attack or something).

Matoran 2: "oh no he dead!"

Matoran 3: "nah he will be back in a week"

Matoran 2: "oh yah forgot about that"

Why isn't this the case when any buddy dies in the MU?

Or did the Red Star not work from the beginning, so no one came back to the MU? If this is the case then my point above is rendered moot (I think).

Only the Great Beings and the Kestora knows about that function

[toa kopaka4372]

I thought that with the new information, I might as well make a list the MU characters who are confirmed deceased; they were never revived.
Karzahni (Being)

I think Karzahni (Being) also is in the Red Star; he only fell in the Iron Canyon

No, he's dead because the Red Star stopped working after the Battle of Bara Magna with the destruction of the MU. Since Karzahni died afterwards, he was never revived.

[The_Didact]

No, he's dead because the Red Star stopped working after the Battle of Bara Magna with the destruction of the MU. Since Karzahni died afterwards, he was never revived.

Greg said we don't know if the Red Star continues to fulfill its role.

[toa kopaka4372]

No, he's dead because the Red Star stopped working after the Battle of Bara Magna with the destruction of the MU. Since Karzahni died afterwards, he was never revived.

Greg said we don't know if the Red Star continues to fulfill its role.

From GregF:

Can the Red Star still teleport the dead MU inhabitants to it now that the MU is effectively destroyed, and if not, how was it able to reach the Matoran in canisters in Voya Nui to turn them into the Toa Inika?

It can't teleport right now, because the system is broken.

[fishers64]

Somebody reminded me about Greg's blog, which still exists, and I found this tidbit:

And in chapter 4: More red star, somebody hits the right switch and regrets it ... or is the wrong switch?, and there are some people who get very frustrated by long lines ... murderously frustrated, in fact.

So the people up in the RS are waiting in line? Is that why bodies are getting dragged around?

[toa kopaka4372]

Somebody reminded me about Greg's blog, which still exists, and I found this tidbit:

And in chapter 4: More red star, somebody hits the right switch and regrets it ... or is the wrong switch?, and there are some people who get very frustrated by long lines ... murderously frustrated, in fact.

So the people up in the RS are waiting in line? Is that why bodies are getting dragged around?

Hm... that's interesting. Waiting in line for what, I wonder?

[Toa Zaz]

Why wasn't Tuyet's corpse teleported to the Red Star?

[Dual Matrix]

Because she was outside the MU and from another dimension

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

Somebody reminded me about Greg's blog, which still exists, and I found this tidbit:

And in chapter 4: More red star, somebody hits the right switch and regrets it ... or is the wrong switch?, and there are some people who get very frustrated by long lines ... murderously frustrated, in fact.

So the people up in the RS are waiting in line? Is that why bodies are getting dragged around?

Hm... that's interesting. Waiting in line for what, I wonder?

Greg has a blog?

[Erebus]

Somebody reminded me about Greg's blog, which still exists, and I found this tidbit:

And in chapter 4: More red star, somebody hits the right switch and regrets it ... or is the wrong switch?, and there are some people who get very frustrated by long lines ... murderously frustrated, in fact.

So the people up in the RS are waiting in line? Is that why bodies are getting dragged around?

Hm... that's interesting. Waiting in line for what, I wonder?

Greg has a blog?

He has a blog, but he has not been here for a long time, so it hasn't been updated.

[fishers64]

Somebody reminded me about Greg's blog, which still exists, and I found this tidbit:

And in chapter 4: More red star, somebody hits the right switch and regrets it ... or is the wrong switch?, and there are some people who get very frustrated by long lines ... murderously frustrated, in fact.

So the people up in the RS are waiting in line? Is that why bodies are getting dragged around?

Hm... that's interesting. Waiting in line for what, I wonder?

Greg has a blog?

He has a blog, but he has not been here for a long time, so it hasn't been updated.

Yes, I just stole that tidbit from the most recent entry here, which is very old.

Anyway, probably teleportation back home? That's my guess.

[bonesiii]

That sounds like Gaardus, Kopaka, or Pohatu figure out how to switch the Sendback teleporter back on, and all the villains and others storm the area to get home -- though how that would work given the "nowhere to send them now" line, not sure.

[fishers64]

That sounds like Gaardus, Kopaka, or Pohatu figure out how to switch the Sendback teleporter back on, and all the villains and others storm the area to get home -- though how that would work given the "nowhere to send them now" line, not sure.

Er, the chapter he was referring to is here... the fourth chapter of The Powers That Be. I suspect the refrence may be a bit more cryptic.

Could be about some plans for that chapter that he never did, though.

[bonesiii]

Hm... Probably he just didn't get to part of it, then. Unless I'm forgetting a switch that was pressed... ? The crowd of whoever/whatever Kopaka was frightened by sounds like the "line".

[Flex Fiction]

Alright, thanks for clarifying. That helps. Basically you're saying, you want it to be used sparingly. And I agree.


I do get the sense that, considering all the breakdowns and the Survivor, almost Hunger Games concept of how things turned out there (apparently), that in effect it may be very sparing in terms of who is actually left like Mavrah now. I strongly suspect it's very few, that Greg isn't just bringing back everybody but Matoro.

Could be wrong, but yeah.

Let's hope so . So would their bodies be at the Red Star anyway? Like it still teleports them there and they are just chilling collecting dust? Or possibly they get melted down to make new beings?

Well, I think it's been broken for a long, long time. There's some question about it in some ancient cases, like Lesovikk's team, though, but apparently the Sendback stopped working shortly after that. There's been plenty of precedent for the ancient state of things in the MU to be largely forgotten or turned into legend that is only mentioned when it comes up in present plot, like the Visorak.

Also, I get the sense that at least part of this -- the bodies disappearing -- has been very common knowledge to the characters, but the writers had to be selective about showing it or even implying it to preserve the mystery. There were some old answers by Greg about Jaller's original body that implied this, and that future story would clear up why this was; that now seems to be clearly referring to the Red Star.

So the red star was working at the time Jaller died? Or it at least could pick up bodies but not send them back?

By that time it's been so incredibly long since it worked there would be no reason to expect it to be thought of. But we're still not really sure it works at all outside the MU; there's some evidence both ways right now.

That makes me a bit more okay with this since it hasn't worked in so long, I didn't know that before. I thought it has been working all along XD. So pretty much it just serves as a new cool plot arc since its broken, well the 'sender backer' thing is anyway, so they could possibly bring back some interesting characters but have them trapped on the star.

In very, very ancient times, perhaps -- likely not the Vortixx. Maybe the Barraki? But then, how could they know for sure that they wouldn't be ruled out for revival due to their rebellion? I don't quite buy the logic that anyone would feel totally confident they'd come back no matter what, yanno?

Yeah makes sense, I just thought that whenever it worked someone would abuse it or take it for granted. Being basically immortal can corrupt many beings in my opinion.

Like fishers said, it seems almost certain they keep their memories; if not, you might as well just make new beings with the same inherent personalities. I gave a lot of reasoning about that earlier. And Jaller, Takanuva, and Matoro all came back with their memories intact.

That said, it would be cool to see this as the next thing Greg answers for sure.

Very true. Wait Matoro came back? I thought he died and never came back.

I don't think a memory wipe is necessary to keep the secret specifically of the Red Star being connected to this. Kopaka and Pohatu had special inside knowledge that they were going to the Red Star by a method few else ever could; Gaardus's own teleportation power. Everybody else would merely know they wake up in corridors and stuff. Also, I don't think anyone besides maybe the Makuta, and the Mata Nui Island Matoran and the like (maybe the Order?) know about the Red Star to even wonder about it. Most of them think of the domes and islands and the two continents as their universe. They would likely assume it's some unknown cavern hidden somewhere on the continents or an obscure island or whatnot.

I suppose, especially since the Mata Nui Island Matoran all had their minds wiped before they came to that island from Metru Nui so they probably wouldn't remember. Possibly they don't have the materials to make whole new beings so they mind wipe them, but it doesn't sound like they do.

[bonesiii]

We have no evidence that the teleporter that brings the dead up to the RS ever stopped working. That doesn't necessarily prove it's still working, but Greg said the reason Matoro wasn't revived was that he was disintegrated; no mention of the reviver itself not working.

And I was referring to the 777 stairs revival (apparent revival) of Matoro in 2006.

[toa kopaka4372]

Apparently burial was known in the Matoran Universe; in Challenge of the Hordika it was mentioned that the Toa Hordika buried some dead Visorak. I wonder what Greg has to say about this. 

[The Iron Toa]

Yeah, the only problem I have with this Red Star thing is the lack of evidence of it in the story.

[toa kopaka4372]

Yeah, the only problem I have with this Red Star thing is the lack of evidence of it in the story.

To be fair, there is some minor foreshadowing, but there are still unresolved inconsistencies, like all the corpses of beings and Rahi we saw. 

 

BTW, in Time Trap Lariska tells the Shadowed One to do something about her dead targets laying outside before they start "to smell." It implies that bodies stayed long enough to have an odor, which could support the "bodies disappear after certain time period" idea. 

[bonesiii]

Isn't there more evidence of it than of most other big secrets? Other than maybe the giant robot itself, nothing's standing out off the top of my head...

[The Iron Toa]

I guess it would work out if the bodies lingered for a while.

[bonesiii]

Well we know they do linger for a while. We just don't know how long and if that was the case in some of the trickier cases, like the victims of Tuyet in Many Deaths. Greg's latest explanations from the Greg Answers topics seem to imply that as long as there's a body left at all, the RS does take it eventually.

[toa kopaka4372]

Well we know they do linger for a while. We just don't know how long and if that was the case in some of the trickier cases, like the victims of Tuyet in Many Deaths. Greg's latest explanations from the Greg Answers topics seem to imply that as long as there's a body left at all, the RS does take it eventually.

 

What if there's a body, but it's broken into pieces? Would the teleporter just teleport all the pieces and the body would be put back together on the Red Star. If the answer's yes, what if the body was shattered and the pieces were spread out miles apart from some explosion? Would the body still be teleported?

 

Decoy Tuyet's corpse still being around 1,000 years after her death needs an explanation. The two I can think of is what I mentioned above, assuming the answer is no, or that since she's from an alt. dimension the Red Star doesn't work on her. 

Edited by toa kopaka4372, Dec 02 2012 - 08:10 PM.

[KlakWest]

 

Well we know they do linger for a while. We just don't know how long and if that was the case in some of the trickier cases, like the victims of Tuyet in Many Deaths. Greg's latest explanations from the Greg Answers topics seem to imply that as long as there's a body left at all, the RS does take it eventually.

 

What if there's a body, but it's broken into pieces? Would the teleporter just teleport all the pieces and the body would be put back together on the Red Star. If the answer's yes, what if the body was shattered and the pieces were spread out miles apart from some explosion? Would the body still be teleported?

 

Decoy Tuyet's corpse still being around 1,000 years after her death needs an explanation. The two I can think of is what I mentioned above, assuming the answer is no, or that since she's from an alt. dimension the Red Star doesn't work on her. 

 

 

I think Decoy Tuyet can be explained using an analogy:

 

Think of the Red Star as a Windows computer. The Main Matoran Universe corpses can be seen as programs. Decoy Tuyet can be seen as a program, but since she's from another universe, let's say she runs on a different OS, say, Mac.

 

You can't make a program that only runs on Mac work on a Windows computer without some modifications. Likewise, you can't make a dead Toa from an alternate universe get processed by the Red Star, because the programming is different.

 

I hope this explains it.

[toa kopaka4372]

BS01 lists Nikila as being revived in the Red Star. That makes absolutely no sense, though; Nikila and the rest of her team were killed 100,000 years ago, around 20,000 years before the Red Star malfunctioned. Thus, assuming her body was left intact to be teleported, she should be back in the Matoran Universe... which has its own hosts of problems; I find it hard to believe she couldn't have found Lesovikk in a span of 100,000 years (although I suppose something could have happened that prevented her from moving around). I hope Greg clears this up next chat. 

[Chro]

It's possible that those writing the BS01 page assumed that Nikila would be on the Star without knowing just when the sendback became defunct.

[Podu]

BS01 lists Nikila as being revived in the Red Star. That makes absolutely no sense, though; Nikila and the rest of her team were killed 100,000 years ago, around 20,000 years before the Red Star malfunctioned. Thus, assuming her body was left intact to be teleported, she should be back in the Matoran Universe... which has its own hosts of problems; I find it hard to believe she couldn't have found Lesovikk in a span of 100,000 years (although I suppose something could have happened that prevented her from moving around). I hope Greg clears this up next chat. 

 

 

Or, if Nikila died in a way that revival was not an option. It is also possible that it would take 20,000 years to revive someone. :/