450 replies to this topic

[The Iron Toa]

Spoiler

Hopefully we'll find out what was going to happen next, but my guess is that none of them were coming back (except Jaller), or very few of them (maybe Mavrah will make it off). I can't think of many characters Greg brought back from the dead, and more that he most likely wouldn't (Matoro and all the Makuta). I think the Red Star only worked to revive Jaller, and even if many or all other dead MU beings are alive again on the Red Star, I doubt they'll make it off when the story's over.

[Paleo]

Spoiler

Wow. I like the idea of a "recycling system", but I think it shouldn't have been with all dead characters, instead being just Matoran. My theory on the subject is that because the teleportation to the Red Star worked, but the teleport back didn't, the system got a little clogged up, and the Kestora did some not-so-pretty "housecleaning".

[Toa Jack Bauer]

Spoiler

So death is now completely irrelevant?
So, if that's the case, what's the big deal with Mata Nui dying in 2007? He could have just been revived and shot back in there without Matoro having to die, who apparently, probably isn't really dead. Not to mention Lhikan, Sidorak, 5/6 bohrok kal, Karzahni, Tren Krom, Lesovikk's team, the toa mangai, the entire brotherhood of Makuta, and of course, The Makuta of Metru Nui can just up and come back.
Why implement such a stupid out? It kills any reason to die.

But, at the same time, it could be really cool. If you look at it as an after life rather then a temporary stop (After all, it looks like no one's getting back), then it opens up new opportunities. For example, if someone important were to die, then someone would have to go get them back.

Any way, once again these story additions manage to be very lame and pretty intriguing at the same time. If only it was harder to get to the star.

Oh well.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 07:44 PM.
Spoiler tags added. :) -bones

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

But if everyone was meant to be reincarnated, how and why are new beings made? I mean, I know the 'how' we don't know and the 'why' is because the reincarnation didn't work, but... were they never intended to be able to create more of their kind, but they figured it out on their own? Or perhaps Mata Nui realized the error and compensated for it. And where do the new spirits/personalities come from?

New beings would be made if a new personality, or being with powers, was needed. Like the Toa Mata for the destiny of the safeguard to awaken Mata Nui if needed. And obviously since the send-back option failed, new beings would be needed to replace those that died anyways, just as if they were not revived.

Except Greg specifically said only a "being who died inside Mata Nui" gets transported, so not anyone on the island of Mata Nui (though theoretically that could count) or SM.

That is not clear. He was describing the intent of the system. They were not supposed to spill out onto Mata Nui, or SM. They would have lived in Mata Nui always if things had gone according to plan. And he didn't say "only".

It's some evidence for the idea, but unless it's confirmed not to work for MU beings in general, regardless of where they are, it shouldn't be taken as proof.

I think the Red Star only worked to revive Jaller, and even if many or all other dead MU beings are alive again on the Red Star, I doubt they'll make it off when the story's over.

I don't think it could have been involved for Jaller, since the send-back part was broken. Must have been for a long time before that, at least around a thousand years, since that's when Mavrah died.

My theory on the subject is that because the teleportation to the Red Star worked, but the teleport back didn't, the system got a little clogged up, and the Kestora did some not-so-pretty "housecleaning".

I agree.

Sort of like what recent seasons of Survivor have done where after you are voted off, you compete against others who were voted off, and some continue on while some are gone permanently. Yanno, that actually opens up a really cool story idea, maybe that's where it was headed... If so, I think I would enjoy it with nearly any character, seeing them war against the Kestora, most of them dying for good before the end. Maybe I'm crazy.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[-Jaller-]

Does hitting "CODE" make a spoiler tag, I don't want to accidently ruin this topic.

[joev14]

Spoiler

I guessed that something along these lines was going to happen as soon as the fourth chapter of The Powers That Be was released, as soon as Mavrah was revealed to be alive. I have mixed feelings about this, though it means some of my favorite characters are alive, it really feels like their deaths aren't as meaningful.

Also, what was the point of Matoro's mask of regeneration reanimation then, if all these characters went to the red star and came back to life when they died? What about alternate-dimension characters, would they return to the main dimension red star (ex. all the shadow Takanuvas that the Alt. Di. Light Teridax killed, would they all go to the main dimension red star, or would they travel to the red star in their own original dimension?

and lastly, if somebody died while IN the red star, what would happen to them?

I used similar concepts in my own book. I suspected that the red star was use for such a thing, and I intertwined similar ideas within my own book.,

The Powers that Be Continuation.

Edited by joev14, Sep 18 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[bonesiii]

Does hitting "CODE" make a spoiler tag, I don't want to accidently ruin this topic.

The third button from the right, then select spoiler in the drop down. Or just type it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Spoiler

I guessed that something along these lines was going to happen as soon as the fourth chapter of The Powers That Be was released, as soon as Mavrah was revealed to be alive. I have mixed feelings about this, though it means some of my favorite characters are alive, it really feels like their deaths aren't as meaningful.

Also, what was the point of Matoro's mask of regeneration then, if all these characters went to the red star and came back to life when they died? What about alternate-dimension characters, would they return to the main dimension red star (ex. all the shadow Takanuvas that the Alt. Di. Light Teridax killed, would they all go to the main dimension red star, or would they travel to the red star in their own original dimension?

and lastly, if somebody died while IN the red star, what would happen to them?

It was a Mask of Reanimation, not Regeneration. Reanimation makes dead bodies act like puppets; it's not revival.

And Regeneration, for the record, repairs inanimation objects (Kanohi Kiril), and is unrelated.

@ Alties -- I guess they're beyond any hope of revival.

@ Red-dead -- I presume they'd be dead for good too.

[Hurricane iBrow]

YESSSS I TOTALLY CALLED THIS FUNCTION WOOT WOOT
ALSO EVEN MORE YESSSS IT EVEN WORKS WITH THE STORY I HAVE THOUGHT UP FOR AN EPIC I'M WRITING I LOVE THIS
NOW TO ACTUALLY SPEAK ABOUT THIS INFORMATION IN A WAY THAT SPOILS IT

Spoiler

This means that the likes of Matoro, Krika, Lhikan, Nidhiki, Zaktan (if he even ever died), Carapar, Lesovikk's team, and Ancient are all alive! And... quite possibly... Tren Krom, Teridax, Karzahni?

Interesting plot developments for my epic, should I choose to use them.

-ibrow

[Tazakk]

Spoiler

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but was this a plan from 2000 or is it something Greg came up with? The impressions I received of the Red Star in 2001 certainly did nothing to imply something like this.

But then again, wasn't the Red Star an invention of Templar's? In that case, Greg obviously made this up at some point.

Edited by Tazakk, Sep 18 2012 - 08:27 PM.

[fishers64]

Spoiler

Dagnabbit... this makes so much sense! This topic...this post...this post...why didn't I think of this before? It nicely resolves this quandry here...

Actually, what about something else? The Red Star might have the capacity to launch lightening to dissolve obstacles as it orbits around a planet to avoid smashing into, say, an asteroid. What's more intriguing is where they got the Toa energy to put into the lightening; usually that only comes from Toa. There's Toa up there?

(Well, yes, duh. Some Piraka killed Toa for fun.)

And this little hint here:

This is a good theory. It makes sense.

Except, perhaps, for this, which I dragged up from the 10th page of the Official Red Star Guide:

I will give you a scoop, which you can share (or not) as you choose -- a big part of the rest of this serial is going to take place inside the red star ... which is NOT altogether for what people think it is for ... and I will give you some things to keep in mind:

1) The beings in the red star
2) Jaller's death and rebirth in MOL, and exactly how and why it happened.
3) Why it was safe for Teridax to kill so many Makuta over the years

Okay, only partially.

At this point, however, I am starting to fail to realize the basis behind the negative reaction to this. This is brilliant! Brilliant!

Edited by fishers64, Sep 18 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Dorek]

Spoiler

Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but was this a plan from 2000 or is it something Greg came up with? The impressions I received of the Red Star in 2001 certainly did nothing to imply something like this.

But then again, wasn't the Red Star an invention of Templar's? In that case, Greg obviously made this up at some point.

The impression that we got from Greg was that it had been a plan in place for a bit, at least less recently than the 2010 serials.

[Kahi]

Spoiler

Regardless, again, all this seems is just another stab at a plot twist to keep characters thought dead to be alive. There is no reason for data of characters like Mavrah to be kept while data of Matoro or Lhikan were to be thrown away. I would honestly not be surprised if Greg was going to use it to bring back one or both of those characters, or even just other prominent characters that were thought to be dead. Kind of cheapens their death, honestly, knowing that they didn't even die.

We don't know if there's no such reason, though. The only one we know for sure was revived is Mavrah.

Also, this is revealing that Mavrah did die, so they all died, but didn't stay dead, like Jaller. I agree it kind of cheapens them, but IMO not much. It's like if someone risks their life for someone else, like soldiers to protect their country, just because the random bullet didn't happen to hit them doesn't make that any less courageous and honorable. In this case, if someone dies, especially if it's to save others, like Lhikan or Matoro, they still didn't know they were going to be revived, and even if they did, they couldn't know for sure it would function properly. It's always possible it would break just before they died.

Besides, let's not forget the rescue / hospital angle here.

I think its less about what they did but instead about the dramatic angle it has. Drama is pretty much the real reason any main character dies in a story. As humans, we identify with character deaths because for us death is pretty much the ultimate sacrifice for anything. A heroic protagonist that sacrifices himself with the ultimate price leaves a hanging impact on us and lessening that ultimate price into a sort of mediocre price makes that impact not as heavy. We also disconnect emotionally from the scene because we know either subconsciously or from personal experience that our own loved ones do not return to life after they die.

By cheapening death, you cheapen our perception. Jaller did heroically defend Takua from the Rahkshi, but because of his subsequent resurrection, the emotional impact was reduced to an afternote. The emotional impact and identification is key when writing a good character death. Its what separates Lois Lane's "death" in Superman compared to Agent Coulson's death in Avengers.

Note: this is not to say that all resurrections are necessarily bad, there is a way for them to be done right without completely lessening the emotional impact or shock value. However, the Red Star being a halfway house to heaven seems to come more out of left field and, along with Tuyet's resurrection, are clear demonstrations in BIONICLE how not to do so. The foreshadowing was close to non-existent. The only prominent example of this happening before in the storyline was with Jaller and seeing as how it also took place in the same movie where the lord of darkness challenged the hero to a sport he shouldn't even know about for no real reason in particular besides doing a cliched Chevok's (Previously Failed) Skill ending, its clearly meant to be so kids wouldn't be sad (and is also something which Greg himself has said he wished he could retcon [the Kohlii match ending, not Jaller's ressurection]).

Note 2: As to "the reason", the explenation above states that repopulation is the reason for the Red Star serving this purpose. Why they need old memory backups of dead beings or, regarding the destiny theory, why they would be selective about which dead beings they would use is beyond me, given the objective. This explanation seems to be flawed on multiple levels.

Edited by Kahi, Sep 18 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Biff]

Spoiler

You know, maybe we're all looking at the destiny thing, when we should really be wondering who is important enough to be reincarnated.

Edited by Biff, Sep 18 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Tenuk]

Spoiler

Does the Red Star Create new bodies for the consciousness? I would assume no but this seems to deny the "finite materials" explanation.

Edited by Tenuk, Sep 18 2012 - 08:44 PM.

[-Jaller-]

Thanks Bonesiii

Spoiler

This new news leves me with one big question. What about Jaller's case? I read Bonesiii's reply to a post like this, yet it still does leave the question of Jaller's case

[fishers64]

Spoiler

Regardless, again, all this seems is just another stab at a plot twist to keep characters thought dead to be alive. There is no reason for data of characters like Mavrah to be kept while data of Matoro or Lhikan were to be thrown away. I would honestly not be surprised if Greg was going to use it to bring back one or both of those characters, or even just other prominent characters that were thought to be dead. Kind of cheapens their death, honestly, knowing that they didn't even die.

We don't know if there's no such reason, though. The only one we know for sure was revived is Mavrah.

Also, this is revealing that Mavrah did die, so they all died, but didn't stay dead, like Jaller. I agree it kind of cheapens them, but IMO not much. It's like if someone risks their life for someone else, like soldiers to protect their country, just because the random bullet didn't happen to hit them doesn't make that any less courageous and honorable. In this case, if someone dies, especially if it's to save others, like Lhikan or Matoro, they still didn't know they were going to be revived, and even if they did, they couldn't know for sure it would function properly. It's always possible it would break just before they died.

Besides, let's not forget the rescue / hospital angle here.

I think its less about what they did but instead about the dramatic angle it has. Drama is pretty much the real reason any main character dies in a story. As humans, we identify with character deaths because for us death is pretty much the ultimate sacrifice for anything. A heroic protagonist that sacrifices himself with the ultimate price leaves a hanging impact on us and lessening that ultimate price into a sort of mediocre price makes that impact not as heavy. We also disconnect emotionally from the scene because we know either subconsciously or from personal experience that our own loved ones do not return to life after they die.

By cheapening death, you cheapen our perception. Jaller did heroically defend Takua from the Rahkshi, but because of his subsequent resurrection, the emotional impact was reduced to an afternote. The emotional impact and identification is key when writing a good character death. Its what separates Lois Lane's "death" in Superman compared to Agent Coulson's death in Avengers.

Note: this is not to say that all resurrections are necessarily bad, there is a way for them to be done right without completely lessening the emotional impact or shock value. However, the Red Star being a halfway house to heaven seems to come more out of left field and, along with Tuyet's resurrection, are clear demonstrations in BIONICLE how not to do so. The foreshadowing was close to non-existent. The only prominent example of this happening before in the storyline was with Jaller and seeing as how it also took place in the same movie where the lord of darkness challenged the hero to a sport he shouldn't even know about for no real reason in particular besides doing a cliched Chevok's (Previously Failed) Skill ending, its clearly meant to be so kids wouldn't be sad (and is also something which Greg himself has said he wished he could retcon [the Kohlii match ending, not Jaller's ressurection]).

Note 2: As to "the reason", the explenation above states that repopulation is the reason for the Red Star serving this purpose. Why they need old memory backups of dead beings or, regarding the destiny theory, why they would be selective about which dead beings they would use is beyond me, given the objective. This explanation seems to be flawed on multiple levels.

Spoiler

Guys, I don't think Greg will cheapen Heroic Deaths. Instead, he will use this device to bring back people who the fans didn't want to die! There is a whole topic over here on deaths that you all didn't want to happen, and now everyone is complaining about these people getting a chance to come back!

*shakes head in profound disbelief*

[Tenuk]

Spoiler

Regardless, again, all this seems is just another stab at a plot twist to keep characters thought dead to be alive. There is no reason for data of characters like Mavrah to be kept while data of Matoro or Lhikan were to be thrown away. I would honestly not be surprised if Greg was going to use it to bring back one or both of those characters, or even just other prominent characters that were thought to be dead. Kind of cheapens their death, honestly, knowing that they didn't even die.

We don't know if there's no such reason, though. The only one we know for sure was revived is Mavrah.

Also, this is revealing that Mavrah did die, so they all died, but didn't stay dead, like Jaller. I agree it kind of cheapens them, but IMO not much. It's like if someone risks their life for someone else, like soldiers to protect their country, just because the random bullet didn't happen to hit them doesn't make that any less courageous and honorable. In this case, if someone dies, especially if it's to save others, like Lhikan or Matoro, they still didn't know they were going to be revived, and even if they did, they couldn't know for sure it would function properly. It's always possible it would break just before they died.

Besides, let's not forget the rescue / hospital angle here.

I think its less about what they did but instead about the dramatic angle it has. Drama is pretty much the real reason any main character dies in a story. As humans, we identify with character deaths because for us death is pretty much the ultimate sacrifice for anything. A heroic protagonist that sacrifices himself with the ultimate price leaves a hanging impact on us and lessening that ultimate price into a sort of mediocre price makes that impact not as heavy. We also disconnect emotionally from the scene because we know either subconsciously or from personal experience that our own loved ones do not return to life after they die.

By cheapening death, you cheapen our perception. Jaller did heroically defend Takua from the Rahkshi, but because of his subsequent resurrection, the emotional impact was reduced to an afternote. The emotional impact and identification is key when writing a good character death. Its what separates Lois Lane's "death" in Superman compared to Agent Coulson's death in Avengers.

Note: this is not to say that all resurrections are necessarily bad, there is a way for them to be done right without completely lessening the emotional impact or shock value. However, the Red Star being a halfway house to heaven seems to come more out of left field and, along with Tuyet's resurrection, are clear demonstrations in BIONICLE how not to do so. The foreshadowing was close to non-existent. The only prominent example of this happening before in the storyline was with Jaller and seeing as how it also took place in the same movie where the lord of darkness challenged the hero to a sport he shouldn't even know about for no real reason in particular besides doing a cliched Chevok's (Previously Failed) Skill ending, its clearly meant to be so kids wouldn't be sad (and is also something which Greg himself has said he wished he could retcon [the Kohlii match ending, not Jaller's ressurection]).

Note 2: As to "the reason", the explenation above states that repopulation is the reason for the Red Star serving this purpose. Why they need old memory backups of dead beings or, regarding the destiny theory, why they would be selective about which dead beings they would use is beyond me, given the objective. This explanation seems to be flawed on multiple levels.

Spoiler

Guys, I don't think Greg will cheapen Heroic Deaths. Instead, he will use this device to bring back people who the fans didn't want to die! There is a whole topic over here on deaths that you all didn't want to happen, and now everyone is complaining about these people getting a chance to come back!

*shakes head in profound disbelief*

Spoiler

That topic is not "Characters you didn't want to die" it is "Deaths you didn't want to happen" meaning the fans saw the deaths were foolish or unneeded, I don't think they wanted the characters back. The fans wanted the deaths to have never happened.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

Thanks Bonesiii
This new news leves me with one big question. What about Jaller's case? I read Bonesiii's reply to a post like this, yet it still does leave the question of Jaller's case

Well, I was thinking maybe Makuta knows of this, and Takutanuva had a temporary knowledge of how to tap into the reviving power from afar, circumventing the normal need to teleport them to the RS first.


Guys, I'd suggest trying not to judge this as a human sitting here in the real world, but try to imagine yourself in the shoes of the actual characters. There's a very real problem sometimes with fans who try to turn everything that happens in stories into mere plot devices in their minds, and "tune out" from the experience as it's intended.

In other words, topics asking which characters you didn't want to die are kinda fun as a side issue, but shouldn't really play a role in judging the story seriously. Within the "in-shoes" perspective, it's pretty obvious that deaths have meaning that isn't robbed at all... and that you would want to be able to come back, etc. No Ko-Matoran is going to go "Oh I wish Matoro didn't have any chance of coming back to life, that cheapens his sacrifice!"

Sorry, pet peeve. But I guess my point is, what really cheapens things like this is when we fans take too seriously these outside-the-story considerations.

Also, it's fiction, filled with fictional possibilities we don't have here, like elemental powers. Science fiction is filled with such things. Should there be a rule against exploring the idea of consciousnesses being downloaded into new bodies, like Star Trek has had, or Avatar, just because it isn't possible in real life? (As far as you know. ) If you take that thinking to its logical conclusion, aren't you really saying sci-fi and fantasy fiction shouldn't be done?

Say your grandmother dies in a house fire. Does having a story about a Toa who has fire resistance affect that real-life situation at all? Do you ban the idea of fictional characters with fire resistance because of it?

Of course not.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[Dorek]

(pssssssst this is why you people should listen to the podcast because it will take waaaaaaaay longer for us to get a transcript up than it will for you guys to take half an hour out of your horribly busy lives and stick in a pair of earphones and listen to us talk about a lot of the points people are raising)

Spoiler

As we discussed on the podcast, I think that the fact that they weren't actually inside the robot might have had something to do with it as well. One of the theories was related to how the Turaga actually make Matoran in the first place, and that it requires specific input (which, in this case, could be Takutanuva) to call up a dead spirit. Though the why is definitely up for grabs, I would definitely put some money on the "how" being their location, and that it wasn't inside the MU.

[-Jaller-]

Spoiler

Thanks Bonesiii
This new news leves me with one big question. What about Jaller's case? I read Bonesiii's reply to a post like this, yet it still does leave the question of Jaller's case

Well, I was thinking maybe Makuta knows of this, and Takutanuva had a temporary knowledge of how to tap into the reviving power from afar, circumventing the normal need to teleport them to the RS first.


.

That makes sense, I suppose that could/does work.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

(pssssssst this is why you people should listen to the podcast because it will take waaaaaaaay longer for us to get a transcript up than it will for you guys to take half an hour out of your horribly busy lives and stick in a pair of earphones and listen to us talk about a lot of the points people are raising)

As we discussed on the podcast, I think that the fact that they weren't actually inside the robot might have had something to do with it as well. One of the theories was related to how the Turaga actually make Matoran in the first place, and that it requires specific input (which, in this case, could be Takutanuva) to call up a dead spirit. Though the why is definitely up for grabs, I would definitely put some money on the "how" being their location, and that it wasn't inside the MU.

We're talking about Jaller, right? That was in the MU. Or at least, in Mata Nui (if you count only "in the domes" as MU). It was right outside the dome, not up on Mata Nui Island. Inside the giant robot.

[Mega Man: The Blue Bomber]

Huh....I have an idea we could do with this as an RP.

Back on topc:

Spoiler

This brings me to another thing...that means that the Makuta could have survived, as well as Lhikan, and the Zaktann. Though the Makuta is about as likely as the chances of me growing a beard, zip, considering they are made of antidermis which is a gas or type of living air per say.

But this probably works ONLY in the MN robot, though this may not apply to MU beings currently on Spherus Magna.

Thanks Greg for this new tidbit of info

[fishers64]

Spoiler

(pssssssst this is why you people should listen to the podcast because it will take waaaaaaaay longer for us to get a transcript up than it will for you guys to take half an hour out of your horribly busy lives and stick in a pair of earphones and listen to us talk about a lot of the points people are raising)

As we discussed on the podcast, I think that the fact that they weren't actually inside the robot might have had something to do with it as well. One of the theories was related to how the Turaga actually make Matoran in the first place, and that it requires specific input (which, in this case, could be Takutanuva) to call up a dead spirit. Though the why is definitely up for grabs, I would definitely put some money on the "how" being their location, and that it wasn't inside the MU.

We're talking about Jaller, right? That was in the MU. Or at least, in Mata Nui (if you count only "in the domes" as MU). It was right outside the dome, not up on Mata Nui Island. Inside the giant robot.

Yes, but Jaller's death occurred outside the giant robot. And I thought the spirit-sticking-to-the-mask-thing still applies under this revelation, so Jaller's revival could still happen with the energy from Takutanuva.

Although the posts I quoted earilier would seem to point to that, however. It's possible.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

BTW, guys, Greg confirmed Teridax is dead. I would take that to mean not revived. You wouldn't say "Jaller is dead" now, right? So I'd say Teridax is confirmed to be out.

Edit: Hey, remember that device on the 777 stairs that seemed to kill and then revive Matoro? I wonder if that plays any role in this...

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Mega Man: The Blue Bomber]

Spoiler

BTW, guys, Greg confirmed Teridax is dead. I would take that to mean not revived. You wouldn't say "Jaller is dead" now, right? So I'd say Teridax is confirmed to.

Spoiler

In theory yes, and it makes sense, no way Teridax could be revived unless he was not the whole robot itself, or if he wasn't a Makuta.

Time for some changes in my fanfic...

[-Jaller-]

I just thought of this, but it does sound a little odd so here it goes

Spoiler

I heard that Takanuva used makuta's life force to revive Jaller. So do you think that the chunk of Teridax's life force that was used then subsituded for Jaller's life force that would go to the red star? Again this is just a thought I could easily be wrong.

[GSR]

Spoiler

In-universe, I can see the logic behind it. When a piece of a system breaks down, you usually want to try and repair it, not just throw it away. And it opens up a lot of interesting questions about the nature of 'death' in the MU. I'll likely work it into the epic I'm working on, since it dovetails nicely with some of the ideas I'm exploring in it.

Out-of-universe, it's a complete head-against-the-desk moment for me. I understand we're treating some deaths as permanent, but this is an essentially a giant 'bring back dead character x for free' button. It removes a lot of the impact of the danger characters find themselves in, because it turns out that if they do die, they're supposed to get a shiny new body and sent right back. And just having the way back broken doesn't change much - if anything, it makes it more grating, since it just feels like a quick way to say, "oh, and here's why we never saw this in the main story."

[The Lorax]

Spoiler

I have to say, I'm a bit surprised by this revelation. After so long of Greg refusing to discuss what may or may not happen to BIONICLE characters after death or the possibility of an afterlife, it's an interesting move.

I don't think beings actual bodies would go up to the Red Star. It would be their "spirit", their personality, memories and identity (or, using the computer analogy, all the data from their nanotech brains) that gets brought to the Red Star and then transferred to a new body. This is likely the same thing that a kanohi iden releases from the body. We've never yet seen any indication of MU beings' bodies mysteriously disappearing after death. In fact, we have a few titbits to say the opposite.

Teridax to Icarax: "Your talents are still of some use to me, and so I will not kill you ... today. But one day - perhaps in a year, or 1000 years, or 100,000 years - I may grow tired of you, Icarax. You may cease to be amusing, with your posturing and your boasting and your lust for battle. And on that day, your armor will be a meal for metal-eating scavengers, and your essence a wisp on the wind."
This seems to imply that Icarax's dead body would still be lying around after his death for rahi to eat, even if nobody was watching it.

And again in Dark Mirror: "Tuyet glanced down at the street. The mob was coming closer, and though she could easily kill them all, it would leave her as the ruler of an empire of corpses."
For Tuyet to rule an empire of corpses, the corpses would need to stay where they were, rather than being teleported to the Red Star.

And finally, Roodaka's line in WoS "Bring me their bodies". This would be a much harder task than she makes it out to be if the bodies would disappear the moment somebody was no longer looking at them.

So with this in mind, it could be safe to say that it isn't their physical bodies that go to the red star.

If this is true, however, I don't think you would find too many Makuta up in the red star. This would fit with Greg's statements that Teridax won't be returning, but it is unfortunate for other characters like Krika who we might have wanted to see more of. The problem is that for a (post-evolution) Makuta to die, their antidermis needs to be dispersed or destroyed. Antidermis is said to be a Makuta's "essence" given physical form. According to the new announcement above, it is a beings "essence" that is transferred to their new body. This would be a problem for Makuta after they evolved into antidermis, because with their essence destroyed at death, it would be unavailable for transfer to a new body. Ironically, their evolution to gasseous antidermis made them powerful and very difficult to kill, but also blocked them off from resurrection. Only Makuta the died before their evolution would be able to be ressurected.

Edited by The Lorax, Sep 18 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[Dorek]

Spoiler

(pssssssst this is why you people should listen to the podcast because it will take waaaaaaaay longer for us to get a transcript up than it will for you guys to take half an hour out of your horribly busy lives and stick in a pair of earphones and listen to us talk about a lot of the points people are raising)

As we discussed on the podcast, I think that the fact that they weren't actually inside the robot might have had something to do with it as well. One of the theories was related to how the Turaga actually make Matoran in the first place, and that it requires specific input (which, in this case, could be Takutanuva) to call up a dead spirit. Though the why is definitely up for grabs, I would definitely put some money on the "how" being their location, and that it wasn't inside the MU.

We're talking about Jaller, right? That was in the MU. Or at least, in Mata Nui (if you count only "in the domes" as MU). It was right outside the dome, not up on Mata Nui Island. Inside the giant robot.

Spoiler

True, but it was before the massive gate, and the closest proximity to the red star that we've seen someone die in yet.

Spoiler

BTW, guys, Greg confirmed Teridax is dead. I would take that to mean not revived. You wouldn't say "Jaller is dead" now, right? So I'd say Teridax is confirmed to be out.

Edit: Hey, remember that device on the 777 stairs that seemed to kill and then revive Matoro? I wonder if that plays any role in this...

Spoiler

I had always kinda figured that he hadn't actually died, that it was mostly just an illusion (I mean, none of them actually ask Matoro "what was it like being dead?"), but now that we know this, it does raise some interesting ideas.

[///dotcom///]

Spoiler

I don't see why people expect characters like Matoro or the Makuta to be revived. The operative word here is that the Red Star is teleportation device. If there's nothing to retrieve, nothing will be transported. There's nothing left of Matoro and friends, so they're gone. It's all trying hard at the sci-fi angle--these are nanotech beings, their data is retrieved from a body and transplanted to a new one. It's not going to magically gather the "spirit" of characters out of thin air to recreate them.

This does allow other beings who did leave corpses behind--Lhikan, maybe other Makuta, Nikila, etc. to come back, which is not something I'm the happiest about.

Still, it's not invalidating every death.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

So with this in mind, it could be safe to say that it isn't their physical bodies that go to the red star.

This makes sense -- unless it only worked for bodies that living characters lose track of, like Mavrah. It's interesting that the only example we have backs up that idea. But then, Greg connecting this (apparently this anyways) beforehand to Jaller does dash that to pieces, I'm just not quite sure how lol.

I was thinking, you know how masks can be teleported, since 2001, easily with Suva. Maybe it's only masks, and it simply uses Suva teleportation. Then, connecting to the massive power source of the RS to revive them.

This would 1) leave corpses, 2) explain how the To teleportation works while the From failed (easier to teleport a mask by Suva system than a being by some other system), and 3) not be just a spirit being teleported; something physical would go.

Of course, it would rule out Skakdi and the like, so yeah, I dunno.

This would fit with Greg's statements that Teridax won't be returning, but it is unfortunate for other characters like Krika who we might have wanted to see more of. The problem is that for a (post-evolution) Makuta to die, their antidermis needs to be dispersed or destroyed.

Well I'm still not convinced Krika is out. His existing body faded from existance. But what if prior to that it, or just his mask, was teleported (still fading from existence) to the RS, and his consciousness transferred?

Unlike Teridax, he still had a mask and his antidermis wasn't dispersed or immediately destroyed.

I don't see why people expect characters like Matoro or the Makuta to be revived. The operative word here is that the Red Star is teleportation device. If there's nothing to retrieve, nothing will be transported. There's nothing left of Matoro and friends, so they're gone.

I think I agree with this, but then that 777 stairs thing gets me wondering... Maybe, as an act of mercy, the GBs put that there, since they knew the guy who would have to do this, nanotech or not, would have to die, as a backup system. Maybe his consciousness up until that point was backed up, connected, etc.

Of course it already had an apparent in-story explanation (a test), but then if the kind of thing I'm suggesting was the case, it would need a cover story. Plus it would still serve the purpose of a test; this wouldn't change that. Just add to it.

If so, then the Matoro on the RS might not remember anything after that point. I dunno...

[Edit: You know, besides the mercy angle, thinking like a GB, a guy who's willing to sacrifice his own life would definitely be a valuable "unit" to back up. More I think about it, more I'm wondering if Matoro MIGHT be there!]

It's all trying hard at the sci-fi angle--these are nanotech beings, their data is retrieved from a body and transplanted to a new one. It's not going to magically gather the "spirit" of characters out of thin air to recreate them.

If you're referring to me, not really trying hard. Just relaxing and enjoying imagination. That's what LEGO's all about, yeah? It's fun. And whether you like this twist or not, ya gotta admit, it definitely provides food for the imagination and analysis.

And this is a story filled with "magic" powers, all of which Greg defined as sci-fi-not-understood -- why not?

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 18 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[Cian Toa of Rage]

Wow! Not expecting that. I consider myself a hard fan, but this, is.............. interesting. And I agree with HahliNuva. There are so many ways, and different things, that can happen in the story now. Can't wait to find out more!!!!!

[Cratak]

Gosh. Now I know what it must have felt like for the first fans of Bionicle when new info was released. Even more puzzle pieces fit, and the picture nears completion (or so I think).

[Axilus Prime]

Spoiler

So that explains Mavrah, Velika's murdering (So certain evil people would STAY dead, as the MU was no longer needed and everyone had become true beings rather than nanotechnology to maintain a giant robot.), and a few other things I can't remember....wow. I'm glad Greg's tying up the loose ends for us now that he can't make the serials.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

So that explains... Velika's murdering (So certain evil people would STAY dead

Not so sure about the evil part. Didn't his thoughts reveal that he planned to kill the Toa Mata? *checks for quote*

Here, from TPTB:

The Toa Mata were too important to have their lives sacrificed needlessly. Oh, they would die, eventually, but it would be at a time of his choosing

[Bambi]

Interesting..

Spoiler

So that means Krika, Matoro, and Lhikan are all partying inside the Red Star??

[xccj]

Spoiler

Not super impressed with this. It feels like the revolving door of death. While Greg got a little kill-crazy in the later years, deaths in Bionicle were generally important and delivered well. And now to have something that could bring back others... it's just not to my tastes. Oh well.

But gosh it does explain Jaller's revival, which I guess was technically unexplained up to now, but we didn't really need a reason for it because we just accepted it. Now I just wonder if it was one of those things that was always planned but never really hinted to much (Mata Nui giant robot body) or just a last minute gimmick? (Again, I might guess the former just because of the Jaller situation, but it still feels to me like the latter.)

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

But gosh it does explain Jaller's revival, which I guess was technically unexplained up to now, but we didn't really need a reason for it because we just accepted it. Now I just wonder if it was one of those things that was always planned but never really hinted to much (Mata Nui giant robot body) or just a last minute gimmick? (Again, I might guess the former just because of the Jaller situation, but it still feels to me like the latter.)

Why does the possibility that it may have been thought of later translate to "gimmick"?

I doubt it was planned from the very start because as someone said, the RS was apparently an MNOG-originated thing, not necessarily something that was in the original story bible. But as to how recent it may be, could be anywhere between 2001 and now, since the whole giant robot, 'nanotech' stuff was planned from the start and this goes right along with it. And if Greg only thought of it for The Powers That Be, more power to him, IMO, and the timing of its planning doesn't affect anything really.

More likely this reaction is coming about just because of the delivery since it wasn't revealed as intended via a serial.

[Axilus Prime]

Spoiler

In that case, he just wanted people to stay dead. But that does put an...evil spin on the character.

[ZHX]

Spoiler

Well this is ... surprising. No idea what to make of it. Recycling things is understandable ... but ... yeah. I got nothin'.