450 replies to this topic

[XyzTheDay!]

@Main Topic: Could the "Spirit's Wish" Gateway have something to do with the Red Star? Tarduk went up that way to find it, and that's where it was on the map. Was it ever canonized that the spot was supposed to be the place of its construction and not foreshadowing for something bigger?

I actually suggested the same thing not too long ago; I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the two could be connected. I really think that there's a lot more to that gateway than we've been told.

[toa kopaka4372]

Spoiler

@Kahi The points you brought up were some worries I had when I first found out about this. They are pretty valid; however, the reason I'm not very bothered by that right now is because nothing's changed. Everyone who died is still dead at this point. .The only one confirmed alive is Mavrah. Let's not forget the Red Star only teleports the essence of MU inhabitants. It's likely that if there is no essence, then that particular being is gone for good. That rules out quite a number of characters who could come back, and the list includes Matoro, so you can still admire the story team (not just Greg; the story team made the decision to have Matoro die) for having the guts to have Matoro sacrifice himself the way he did. The thing is, the story of the Red Star is far from complete. Many questions about how it functions and what's wrong with it remain. Add that with the confirmation that the Kestora have been killing revived beings and it's likely very few deceased characters are coming back. Let's remember that Mavrah was hiding in a room by himself away from all the other inhabitants of the Red Star, apparently because it wasn't safe. Also, Kopaka was frightened by what he saw when he saw the other beings in the Red Star; if they were simply revived people with new bodies like Mavrah, what's there to be frightened about? The point is, there's bbviously stuff going on beyond what Greg has told us. Like bonesii mentioned earlier, the story was not treating this like "yay, all these dead characters are back, let's celebrate!" but like " Something's very wrong here, this is not good, we need to get out of this mess." We don't know what Greg was planning to do with this next, so I think it's unfair to judge this revelation without seeing it consequences in the story.

Also, it is really true that there was no foreshadowing? Again, we don't know how long this has been planned, but according to a BS01 member the impression from Greg was that this was planned before the 2010 serials started, and this strongly implies Greg and the rest of the story team planned this together before the main story ended. The Red Star's emergence in the story once again in 2006 seems to support this. Ever since 2006 the Red Star has been kept in the story in some way; in 2006 it was with the lightning that created the Toa Inika; in 2007 it was with the beings in the Red Star; in 2008 there wasn't really anything; in 2009 it was with Tarduk seeing it on his map and getting to the Spirit's Wish gate. Maybe the foreshadowing could have been a bit better, but I think there's proof Greg did not suddenly come up with this as a 'lazy twist', if anything the way the Red Star connects with the murderer who is actually a GB connected to the Vorox in The Yesterday Quest seems to show elaborate plotting and a well thought-out story; we just didn't see it to its completion. Now that we know part of the conclusion, I can't but help admire how well Greg filled The Powers That Be with hints regarding the story twist.

Edited by toa kopaka4372, Sep 21 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Kahi]

Spoiler

@Kahi The points you brought up were some worries I had when I first found out about this. They are pretty valid; however, the reason I'm not very bothered by that right now is because nothing's changed. Everyone who died is still dead at this point.

For me its less that anyone has officially come back and more of the concept of there being a easy way for anyone to come back. Death doesn't mean anything in the BIONICLE universe anymore. Not just because of the Red Star, but because this proves that Greg doesn't think it means anything and makes story decisions accordingly.

Also, it is really true that there was no foreshadowing? Again, we don't know how long this has been planned, but according to a BS01 the impression from Greg was that this was planned before the 2010 serials started, and this strongly implies Greg and the rest of the story team planned this together before the main story ended. The Red Star's emergence in the story once again in 2006 seems to support this. Ever since 2006 the Red Star has been kept in the story in some way; in 2006 it was with the lightning that created the Toa Inika; in 2007 it was with the beings in the Red Star; in 2008 there wasn't really anything; in 2009 it was with Tarduk seeing it on his map and getting to the Spirit's Wish gate. Maybe the foreshadowing could have been a bit better, but I think there's proof Greg did not suddenly come up with this as a 'lazy twist', if anything the way the Red Star connects with the murderer who is actually a GB connected to the Vorox in The Yesterday Quest seems to show elaborate plotting and a well thought-out story; we just didn't see it to its completion. Now that we know part of the conclusion, I can't but help admire how well Greg filled The Powers That Be with hints regarding the story twist.

There's always been some mystery about the Red Star, yes. But its never been even hinted at as basically the BIONICLE afterlife. It doesn't really matter if it was decided before or after, honestly; no matter how it is, the foreshadowing just wasn't implemented. Like I said in my post: I don't think I could have gotten away with making a theory topic about it here in S&T (before the latest chapter of TPTB was published) because there just isn't enough proof to make it valid. And if I don't have enough evidence to even make a theory topic, there's definitely not enough foreshadowing to make it a good plot twist.

Edited by Kahi, Sep 21 2012 - 11:32 PM.

[bonesiii]

So if the re-teleporter is broken, how come they didn't put everyone back during booster-rocket mode?

I wondered that also; that's part of why I'm thinking the Kestora don't quite have all their proverbial marbles.

I think this is very significant, because if Greg was killing characters with this knowledge in recent years, and going with the idea that disintegrated beings can't be revived, then Greg may have consciously had characters like Teridax killed in a certain way to ensure their permanent death.

An excellent point. That would strongly argue against Matoro (2007 him anyways) being there, and as you say Teridax, coupled with Greg's specific confirmation that Terry is gone for good.

That may also be evidence that it's not just a spirit that gets teleported, but at least a few "cells" (or protodermic molecules), or their brains may be needed. But not necessarily; Matoro's spirit was apparently consumed, and Terry is antidermis and might not have the kind of spirit that Matoranoids do, or possibly spreading out the antidermis that fast disintegrates the spirit. (Too fast for the teleporter to grab.)

Who else was disintegrated?

Carapar...

Besides, didn't Greg once say he wouldn't bring Matoro back? Don't know if I'm remembering wrong.

Might be worth searching the old OGD for if anyone's up to it. :)

I still dunno what I think about that. I can see the case against Matoro being revived, but then the thing I'm theorizing would still have a downside; he wouldn't have any memories after the 777 stairs device. I suppose that's not the biggest downside imaginable. :P

A major question that would help is, what was the GBs' attitude as to killing units, considering Greg confirmed they knew they were at least somewhat sapient? We have an interesting variety of evidence on that.

On the one hand, they made Baterra to murder even SM natives who had weapons (but arguably as a war action and in defense of those who sought peace). Made Marendar to kill Toa who might go outside the robot (but arguably they knew MU beings might glitch and become dangerous). And set up the sacrifice requirement for the Ignika (though that is arguably an unavoidable side effect of the mask, which was clearly portrayed as not quite being under their control ever).

And of course Velika (yet he acted against their knowledge and/or will at least once).

On the other, there's Angonce who seems to want to protect life. They built the giant robot to save lives on Bara Magna (and presumably Bota Magna), though we still don't really understand why they were in danger other than a vague idea that eventually the planet might become completely unstable or something. The Baterra thing was to end a war, not start it, and they made various other things seemingly to protect.

So in conclusion, I have no clear conclusion lol. But a case can be made either way, or in between. (Which is probably good for mystery. ^_^)

Maybe Gaardus guessed this, which is why he said that maybe what he was waiting for (the Nynrah) was up there (the Red Star).

Definitely sounds reasonable. I wonder how many times a being could be killed, revived, and sent back originally? Unlimited? Perhaps Gaardus was tormenting the Nynrah by killing him over and over?

That would explain why he thinks of it as hunting, and (if I recall right) seems to think of that as an ongoing process.

So... maybe what he's doing now isn't, as I thought, teleporting away to leave K&P there, but exploring the RS, looking for the Nynrah to kill perhaps one last time.

He may even be intending to destroy the Red Star, or at least the Reviver, to end the Nynrah once and for all.

Now, a problem with this theory is that there's proof Gaardus never died; his body. His body was mutated by the Nynrah; if he had been restored, wouldn't he have a new body?

It's not proof because we don't know the process of revival in the RS. It's easily possible they just remake whatever body you had when you died.

When Jaller was revived, he took the weakened-then-rebuilt form rather than standard Metruan.

Of course, IF TK was killed in order to be revived, remaking that body would be a bit problematic, lol. But I now highly doubt he was revived.

However, your theory that he teleported to the Red Star is somewhat plausible. Except he did say he didn't choose to go there. If it was an accident other than death, it would seem strangely coincidental. But maybe if it was the first time he ever used his teleporation ability, it could do something like "operate on the same frequency" as the RS's collecting teleporter and pull him in, damaging it in the process.

Running with that, and presuming the Nynrah was still alive and in the MU, and given that going there like that would probably scare him and make him want to go back, he might have left then and not gone back. Earlier I was thinking he would have gone there because he was trying to figure out why the Nynrah wouldn't stay dead, but this way he wouldn't have any idea of that until the TK psionic flash and K&P's questions, when he first forms the theory. And perhaps he's thinking to bring the Toa so they'll distract the Kestora?

What 'last time' is he referring to? When was the last time they tried to force people to go back? His wording almost sounds like 'last time' was the first time they had trouble sending people back. Yet, if the Red Star hasn't been working or nearly 80,000 years, they should've had thousands of people come in and not leave.

This combined with Greg's apparent confirmation that the Reviver itself is still operating (reviving beings, though not necessarily perfectly) while it's the Sendback that is broken are more parts of why I suspect the Kestora are forgetful. The last time was probably very recently, perhaps just the day before or even hours before that day. It reminds me of several other sci-fi stories where people have memory problems; maybe they have the same basic conversation every time.

IMO it's likely the Reviver has lately been only been partially working, but still working, so everybody new lately is highly malformed. So the shock on their faces would be more that K&P look completely intact rather than that they're there at all.

Note the "like that".




Thinking about the "brain glitch" theory, another thing is that they seem to think that the Revived can go back on their own (under the original system which they temporarily, repeatedly seem to forget isn't working that way anymore). Maybe it's a simple mental activation of the Sendback teleporter?

It may be that the Sendback teleporter isn't damaged in the slightest, but is only mentally activated, and that part of MU beings' brains was the first or one of the first things to go with the Reviver started degrading (under that theory). So somewhere there could be an obvious place where the Revived are supposed to go and mentally activate the way back.

Presumably near whereever they first awake when they're revived so it's easy to see.

Maybe there's a big glowing sign, even, in Matoran letters. :P

@Main Topic: Could the "Spirit's Wish" Gateway have something to do with the Red Star? Tarduk went up that way to find it, and that's where it was on the map. Was it ever canonized that the spot was supposed to be the place of its construction and not foreshadowing for something bigger?

The idea of it being connected was already put forward in the Velika announcement topic. I proposed that Velika may have stolen the actual device inside it and be using it as his teleportation to move himself (and apparently Tren Krom / other victims) wherever needed. Since we know the murderer crossed a vast distance in a very short time.

If it's tied into the Red Star though we don't know. It may simply be the same design of teleporter as the one in the Red Star.


OR, if we throw out several previous theories (as often must be done, heh), perhaps the Wish Gate IS the RS's Sendback teleporter, and at some point it was taken away from it and dropped on Bara Magna. That would fit my mental activation theory. But I dunno, not sure that works.

Guess I've been coming off as sort of harsher here than I meant to. Sorry about that.

Accepted. ^_^

I actually do like Greg's style of writing. It's not perfect, of course, and there might be some ways it could be improved, but overall I've enjoyed it. I've never really had a sound dislike for Greg's writing, no, but recently I have had some problem with his plot planning and general adherence to common media tropes.

Alright, fair enough. :)

I'm sorry, I'm still having a problem connecting that to how I read a story? I guess I can't see how the characters react to something in-story can influence or even have any impact on how I would react to it when reading it. Unless this is a biography, I'm not one of the characters. I can relate to them, but the writer can also make decisions that make me not relate to them.

Basically, I'm not in the story. I can't enjoy this idea in-story, not because the characters wouldn't, but because I don't live BIONICLE. I'm not a character in BIONICLE. I instead read it once in a while from my laptop in my room. That's where my point of view comes from, and that's basically all it can come from.

Well, my point is that I think this is probably the biggest reason why you're not enjoying this revelation. :) I don't know if this is a taste thing or what, but to me stories are all about getting in the characters' heads and trying to experience it as it would actually happen. Characters' motivations, desires, wants, dislikes, aversions, needs, and emotions in general are what drive character-based story (which Greg has defined Bionicle as intended to be, versus plot-based). So to say you can't enjoy it as if you were living it as the characters... to me that sounds kinda like saying you can't be in a car as it moves you forward.

In other words, it seems as if your approach to it is more plot-based, at least when it comes to this feature. :shrugs: Since it is the characters who drive the plot and determine what will and will not happen, ignoring who the characters are and what they want when judging the elements of the plot simply does not make sense. Can you understand where I'm coming from here?

1. The escalation of danger resulting from the character death(s) isn't as meaningful as it used to be.

Under the original system, this is obviously true. I agree with this in terms of, for example, a fanfic that's set very early in history. However, arguably there's more danger now. Not only do you get killed, you go to this messed up place and probably get killed again after who knows what unspeakable things happen to you.

Of course, for sake of argument, under the original functioning system, this begs the point that yes, it would mean less danger, and that obviously is the point. :) To continue the principle of applying this thinking to other things, when we find out that there is a power in the MU that can do X, then we learn that in past story, if there was a need that only X could fulfill, then what we might have erroneously assumed was a danger may not have been. You could make this case about every power, to varying degrees.

When, after a long period of time, they don't come back, that thought turns into admiration. "That was a pretty gutsy move, doing that. That character is never coming back. He can never be used again.

But see, this is all in your head. :P

When I see a character die, I don't start off where you did to begin with, with anything like a "they can't do that" or "they can do that." I simply understand why in the circumstances they logically would die, and connect with the emotions of the characters about it. I don't look at it as a "they" "doing" it. Even though it's certainly possible to "kill off", I give writers the respect to ignore that thinking entirely when I'm following a story, or at least keep it off to one side as something to acknowledge but that doesn't factor into my enjoyment of it at all.

Like, okay, this character had to die because in the real world, that actor wants off the show. But when I'm watching it, I can put that entirely to the side. I think people tend to bring those things forward (as I've pointed out often on BZP) at the times of death as psychological shields to avoid dealing with the realistic emotions of death. I think that generally even if an author does want a character to die for whatever reason, they want it to make sense that they'd die then, and they want the reader to experience the emotion. Writers are all about that, IMO.

Anywho, hopefully you get where I'm coming from, don't wanna go on and on about it lol.

The writer deserves credit for having the bravery to pull that off with lasting effects. Death actually means something when he writes the story."

The problem I have with this is, this is purely based on your choice of perspective as a fan, with little to no connection to whether it makes sense in-story (which is what we writers work so hard to concern ourselves with! :P), and to prove it, just look at how many others can look at the very same action and have a totally opposite reaction -- "that writer doesn't deserve credit for this, they just killed them off to avoid having to keep writing about them.

Both are plot-based reactions that ignore the real meat of the stories -- and, in this case, the backbone of the basic logic of the secrets and stuff.

Anywho, why not apply the gutsy label, if you're going to go that route, to the revival thing? After all, death is fairly common in stories. It takes a really gutsy writer to go against the grain of many who have a sort of entrenched aversion to it and feature revival. :P

But personally, I don't think of any of these things as related to guts. What I look for is brilliance in the idea of it, originality, and this has that up the wazoo. I don't need guts to feature any of these things, if it makes sense for them in the world I'm telling about, and I generally presume that's true of all other authors. It's their stories, they can do whatever the heck they want. What I want is something that shows they did something with the really basic 'tropes', if the story goes that way, that is done in an imaginative way.

Make any sense at all? :shrugs:

It also gives any other battle an even higher sense of danger.

And I'm often one of the nearly lone voices pointing that out when people are complaining that characters died. :P

Ah irony abounds whenever this subject comes up. Reminding me of the topic where Greg originally brought up the character-based vs. plot-based thing. In that topic at the time he and I were defending death in-story for this reason, and in another topic at the same time defending the other elements of non-death (in that case, heroes killing if they have no other choice, which he affirmed Toa might, versus the standard Toa Don't Kill rule).

The truth was that in both cases the two extremes were making the mistake of insisting on putting on "plot-based" glasses to try to judge the story, even though Greg was writing it as the much more meaningful character-based kind of story. And IMO the same thing is true here.

If you try to play the plot-based game as a writer to appease someone who makes a plot-based criticism, IMO that's when you lose, because there are just as many making opposite plot-based arguments. In plot trope reasoning, everything is purely subjective, and there's nothing 'scientific' or meaningful that we can really all grab onto.

But in character-based, it's all about empathizing with people who are different than us, as symbolized by fictional characters, in fictional "what if" worlds like Bionicle or in real-world-style or whatever. It's about learning what it would be like to be in very different shoes. And because that can be built on actual reasonable thinking through what such characters would actually do, and "letting the characters write the story" (as many authors, plus me, can attest it can feel like), then there is something objective, and with potentially universal appeal we can all appreciate even if our tastes as far as tropes are diverse. :)

Now again, that taste thing still means who likes what most and who dislikes what will vary, etc. But playing the game of always trying to perfectly match your exact tastes is kinda pointless because we all have different sets of tastes to some extent. And not saying constructive criticism isn't possible, etc. Just trying to get across what it seems you're saying that you don't understand about what I'm advising. :)

When I saw Serenity, this thought really burned into my head for the last battle scene. If it had been a usual movie, I wouldn't have been as concerned. But Joss Whedon had not only killed Bishop an hour ago, he had also just killed Wash. No one expected that.

*ahem* I did. ;)

Who's to say that it wouldn't happen again to any of the characters? Those characters never came back. The weren't there at the end of the film. Death meant something in this world.

Again, this implies that only finality "means something." I would just like to point out, to this Great No One who is apparently out there in your estimation that we all die eventually of something or another. ;)

What really means something is the way they die, what it means to people, the loss, etc. Think about it, how could finality have value if there was not first a sense of loss? And if there is loss, that implies that possession or regaining has value too. Meaning, there must even more basically be value to life.

If there is value to life, then there is value to revival.

Serenity simply is not a world in which that feature was desired by its authors. They may share your tastes on it or not, I dunno, but authors are under no obligation to always allow revival. :P

In my The Islander story for example, there is no hint of any possibility of revival, and there's a lot of death. I had no reason in that story to feature it. Doesn't mean I as a writer am opposed to it. In another story (I won't say which if yall haven't read my fanfics :P) someone comes back to life. In that story, there were reasons (many of which are still secret) why that had to happen that way, and it had meaning in that story to the characters. Etc.

Basically I like having options, yanno? And since I have in-story reasons for it all, I know that none of it is intended as a plot device.

This decision isn't just for one character to come back. That's not why I'm so against this. This opens up the realization that, no matter who they were, they never really died.

It opens up the slight possibility... But that seems highly unlikely. Besides, it's confirmed the Kestora permanently killed some, so that's simply false. Also, there are many reasons to think, as we are discussing, that it doesn't work with all deaths. :)

Also, who says death is the worst thing that can happen to you? It's generally considered that torture is worse, and I got the distinct impression from Kopaka's highly emotional reaction to what he saw of them (nearly any such emotion is unusual for him) that the existence many of them have now is quite torturous.

Greg wasn't as gutsy

Your logic is self-defeating, Kahi. You argue that the choice to allow a character to die (versus authorial guiding to save them) is gutsy -- why?

Is it not because you feel that some, including originally you ("They can't do that!"), would complain about it? Would try to say he can't do it, but he did it anyways.

Likewise, now Greg has done something that yet again you and others are complaining about, and would try to say he can't do it.

By your own logic, that's gutsy. ;)

And I actually would say that it really IS very gutsy. I had the theory, and strongly suspected it was true, but quite frankly I feared Greg wouldn't have the guts to go up against people who have knee-jerky reactions against revival. I was extremely impressed that he did this. Let's face it, everybody dies. It doesn't take guts to feature death in an action story that needs death to add to suspense! What takes guts in a story like this is revival, IMO.

(Though like I say, I won't claim to have or need guts myself. :P Still not really sure what that even means lol.)

2. Anyone and everyone is fair game. Stan Lee has famously gone on record for saying he wanted the X-Men to be mutants because he was tired of creating new origin stories for superheroes. By saying they were a mutant, he just had to say they were born with powers and make them superheroes. I guess this is sort of the same thing. Its easy and honestly kind of lazy. Not only did no one ever die, but they can be brought back without any extra trouble.

Lol, I could add to that if certain subjects weren't disallowed here. :P But I kinda agree about that for X-Men, suffice to say. But it seems to me that here, you are assuming anyone is fair game by ignoring what nearly everybody else is saying, which is that they almost certainly aren't... It kinda sounds like you're hoping it's the worst case scenario so that your argument against it is stronger...

3. Lack of serious foreshadowing. This is a big reason for me, and its why I've had problems with the two recently release points of information. Greg not only didn't think of this beforehand, he also didn't foreshadow it nearly as enough as it needed to be. There aren't any hints, any clues, any after-the-credits scenes that led up to this. It just sort of comes out of nowhere.

I just don't buy this at all. See previous posts on the subject. Velika was foreshadowed excellently even though it wasn't planned (consciously :P). And the RS was almost certainly planned and foreshadowed, but we may have missed some of the clues.

But take any other secret in Bionicle. None of them had significant foreshadowing in the sense that you could be sure of them or couldn't be surprised. Now that's a sweeping generalization that probably has exceptions, intentionally because I don't know how much foreshadowing you would accept. But it's a mystery-adventure story. Secrets are supposed to be secretive, and unexpected.

If you'd like to give me examples of other bold secrets that did have significantly more clear foreshadowing, go ahead. :) Just keep in mind we don't know what was and wasn't foreshadowing about this specifically -- however, I think it's clear that Jaller's revival was about as blatant a clue as you can get, and was even a major feature of the first movie. I don't see a strong case for saying this wasn't hinted at.

Also, how can anything Great Being related possibly earn the description "comes out of nowhere"? They have been nearly complete mysteries to us since the very beginning, and known about since then, until in 2006 when we learned they could be very stealthy and still very mysterious. For all we knew, just about anything was possible for Great Beings. And surely it isn't that hard to imagine one might be in disguise in the universe they created? There was a time when nearly all online fans assumed the GBs were all watching and taking active roles, lol.

There has been no foreshadowing for the Red Star having all of the dead characters inside it. There were no hints leading up to this revelation.

Kahi, your wording is mixing up reader with author. We as readers cannot make definitive statements that there were no hints. You as one fan may not see any potential hints; that would be accurate. I as one fan see many potential hints, some highly likely. And I actually really like the term "foreshadowing" here, as that can include even things that the author might not have consciously intended as a hint when they wrote it (but may have subconsciously, or it fits as). I'm a big believer that the "when the author thought of it" should be rigorously treated as totally irrelevant. :P Since obviously within the world the author doesn't exist, and things happen for reasons that exist purely within the world. It is another approach that breaks suspension of disbelief through no fault of the author's.

Unless you're operating under the obviously false illusion that only ideas the author originally thought of prior to writing any of it are okay...

Basically, I'll put it this way. If I had made a topic, right here, in Storyline and Theories, and theorized that the Red Star was where all the dead characters of BIONICLE went to when they died (let's ignore the fact that there's an Official Red Star topic for now =P), would you keep that open? Or would you close it because it fell under "speculation" and I didn't have enough proof? I honestly think that it would be closed

Kahi, I'm getting the distinct impression you haven't really been following the story, this forum, or even this topic closely?

As I said, I myself theorized it. Erebus said right at the beginning of this topic that others did. And there was a topic recently about it which I did leave open, and I believe it is still open. It's actually been floated, in basic essence, several times before on the old forums too. Really isn't rocket surgery lol.

Death doesn't mean anything in the BIONICLE universe anymore. Not just because of the Red Star, but because this proves that Greg doesn't think it means anything and makes story decisions accordingly.

Kahi... you're sinking back into confrontational mode again apparently... catch it. :) This is simply an innacurate statement, and I think you know that. Because as I already pointed out, death means a lot more than merely finality. (And finality is not ended, as tk4372 said.)

All your statement indicates is that you don't think death means anything other than finality. ;) Maybe Greg is the one who thinks it means a lot more than you do?

Although I suspect you don't really believe that yourself... We all know there's more to death than merely an end. Finality is, anyways, an extra idea added onto death anyways. Whether it is used in a story that features death is up to the author. Death simply means the character is taken out of current ability to interact at all -- plus all the emotion and suchnot that goes with that. It should not be assumed -- especially in a world where revival has been featured before -- that finality is necessarily attached to death in fantasy/sci-fi fiction.

But its never been even hinted at as basically the BIONICLE afterlife.

Do I really have to say it? .... :P

It's a mystical thing in the sky MNOG attached to awe-inspiring music and telling the future. Kinda like many people's idea of...

You know. ;)

Which is probably why so many fans actually thought of it or something similar since before I joined lol. Remember the old legends that Mata Nui and Makuta came down from above, were spirits, then the Toa too? Maybe you weren't around back then, but this basic idea was actually very common, and candidate Numero Uno was... you guessed it...

Of course, other revelations later seemed to argue against it. Of course, in a mystery story that's quite common. I think this is a brilliant move, because even though there's been this massive emotive shift to a techy feel, this does callback to the original fanbase mythology that was so popular near the start, lending some credence to some of it in a way many had become accustomed to think was too much to expect. And in a way that flows totally logically from the tech rationale at that. ^_^

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 22 2012 - 02:52 AM.

[XyzTheDay!]

Besides, didn't Greg once say he wouldn't bring Matoro back? Don't know if I'm remembering wrong.

Might be worth searching the old OGD for if anyone's up to it.

He doesn't directly state it, but it is strongly implied quite far down the page in Onua Krom's post: Not really any more need for this link then
Also, that post reminded me of another disintegrated character: Ancient. (Though I'm not quite sure how I feel about the "Disintegration Exemption" theory yet.)

Off-topic meta-moment: I just realized that some of my own questions/responses from Greg are on that page, albeit under my old username.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 22 2012 - 03:21 AM.

[bonesiii]

Besides, didn't Greg once say he wouldn't bring Matoro back? Don't know if I'm remembering wrong.

Might be worth searching the old OGD for if anyone's up to it.

He doesn't directly state it, but it is strongly implied quite far down the page in Onua Krom's post: http://www.bzpower.c...5890-12750.html
Also, that post reminded me of another disintegrated character: Ancient. (Though I'm not quite sure how I feel about the "Disintegration Exemption" theory yet.)

Off-topic meta-moment: I just realized that some of my own questions/responses from Greg are on that page, albeit under my old username.

Canya quote rather than link? So we don't all have to logout?

[XyzTheDay!]

Canya quote rather than link? So we don't all have to logout?

Oh, sure. (My formatting lacks finesse, though, which is why I didn't just do that initially, although I was wondering why I kept getting logged out. )

9. If you had to revive any of the bionicle characters which one would it be?

9) If I had to pick one, I don't know ... I lean toward Matoro, but I think bringing him back would cheapen his sacrifice.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 22 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[bonesiii]

Lol, that could work both ways. I'd be inclined towards the latter part though. Thanks for digging it up. That is certainly reassuring, or so I hope, to those who think in that way.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 22 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[toa kopaka4372]

@XyzTheDay Thanks for the quote.

@bonesii Others who were disintegrated besides Teridax I think include Ancient, the Karda Nui Makuta. Might be others, I can't be sure.

I think the strongest proof we have that the GBs when it comes down to it don't think much of killing the MU inhabitants is their original plan to have the MU shut down once Mata Nui completed his mission, which would arguably kill the majority of the inhabitants, which seems to be what the GB's were aiming for (they probably would have shut down the Red Star as well to prevent revivals.)

Definitely sounds reasonable. I wonder how many times a being could be killed, revived, and sent back originally? Unlimited? Perhaps Gaardus was tormenting the Nynrah by killing him over and over?That would explain why he thinks of it as hunting, and (if I recall right) seems to think of that as an ongoing process. So... maybe what he's doing now isn't, as I thought, teleporting away to leave K&P there, but exploring the RS, looking for the Nynrah to kill perhaps one last time.He may even be intending to destroy the Red Star, or at least the Reviver, to end the Nynrah once and for all.

That's an excellent idea, I can't think of anything that that would really contradict it.

I have been wondering how many times a being can be revived, I suppose it'd make sense in-story to revive them as many times as needed, as that particular unit might still be needed.

So the shock on their faces would be more that K&P look completely intact rather than that they're there at all.
Note the "like that".

Good point.

The 'remaking body when you die' idea could work. There's not really any proof for it or against it, so I'll leave it at that. The evidence does seem to support the theory that Gaardus died at some point, though.

I am curious as to why the Kestora seem to think the problem in the Red Star has to do with the beings stuck inside it; they're dissecting proves that they thought that might find a solution in the trapped beings.

The two Toa had gone about a hundred yards when the lights suddenly went out. Now they could hear movement from all around them. There were whispers, too, but they couldn’t make out the words. Kopaka triggered his Akaku Nuva, piercing the walls around him with x-ray vision. In one direction, there was nothing to see but outer space. In the other, he saw things – a lot of things – he could have lived without seeing. When he spoke, his voice was raw.
“We need to move,” said Kopaka. “Now.”
“What’s the matter?”
“You don’t want to know. Grab my hand. We’re finding a way out of this.”
The sounds were coming closer now. Some sounded like rodents skittering, others like bodies being dragged across a metal floor. At one point, they saw a lighted corridor up ahead, but as they approached, the lights went off there too. Worse, the noises were starting to come from up ahead as well as behind.

Kopaka's reaction obviously shows that something's not right about what he saw. The theory that the recently Revived beings are malformed seems to be supported here. I imagine they must look disturbing enough to frighten Kopaka. It's a disturbing thought what's been happening here.

Kopaka used the Akaku and saw that there were no other figures in the room beyond. If it was a trap, it probably wasn’t a very good one. The two Toa headed for the door and slipped inside. The figure closed it behind them.
“It’s not safe out there,” their rescuer said. “But then you probably figured that out. A lot of very unhappy people up here, you know.”

I still find it interesting Mavrah's by himself here. Kopaka's Akaku confirms he was hiding alone. Does this mean Mavrah's the only "normal" revived one here. Obviously he feels the need to hide from the others. This calls into question how long the Reviver has been malfunctioning, if it has been. Mavrah died only 1,000 years ago. Yet he seems to be the only okay person in the Red Star. What happened to those before him who died? A possible explanation is that the Kestora have killed everyone since 1,000 years ago, and Mavrah's the last survivor; perhaps everyone after him has become messed up. The Kestora's previous conversation seems to indicate the Sendback button and the Reviver both malfunctioned at the same time, at least to me. If that's true, then people should have been becoming malformed for most of the Star's existence and Mavrah is an exception.

An alternate, simpler explanation is that the trapped beings have simply become insane in the Red Star and have done unspeakable things to each other in the Red Star.

Also, I don't know if this has been brought up before, but what about beings who were absorbed by others, like Spiriah, Nidhiki, and Krekka? I was thinking that if the essence of the being who absorbed them was destroyed, they'd be gone for good as well. That would rule out Krekka and Nidhiki.

Just an idea, I'm in a bit of a hurry so I'm not elaborating for now

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

@toa kopaka4372: So are you saying that there are zombies in the Red Star? Why do I feel like that is one of the coolest things I've ever heard?

Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon, Sep 22 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Katuko]

It's not normal for people to forget they murdered people, no.

It is if you've done it a thousand times already and it's part of your everyday work. Briefly forgetting even obvious things is human behavior, and could easily translate to the Kestora too. Haven't you ever found yourself - for example - been sitting at your computer, having someone talk yo you/something happens nearby and then you completely space out on how to find your bookmarks? It's happened to me, at least. When someone else is watching what I'm doing, suddenly I'm inclined to mess up or overlook even the obvious things. In my experience this occurs in reverse as well.

have often been critizied for making death almost pointless as a plot device because it's known that any character can be brought back for any reason that a writer feels like adding. Keeping it unexplained is then better, almost

Problem is this is just your taste. If we try to judge by the fan or critic's taste, then the problem is you can always find another fan who would say that leaving it unexplained is what would make it a mere plot device.

Yes, true. But sometimes saying that "rainbow unicorns did it" is bad, while saying he "just survived" is better. The second can be ridiculous to many, but the former can be just plain bad writing to even more; see what I mean? Sometimes, if a series is going to make a lot of such things happen, then I do prefer the X-Men style (he's a mutant, he got powers, end of story) over every single one getting some backstory like lighter gas accident/radiation inhalation/super drugs/spawned from a toad eating asphalt that would just make things overly complicated, confusing and/or contradicting.

Anywho, I just think the solution to all these criticisms is simply for authors to never "use plot devices" but rather to follow the Arena Method. That is, if it is logical that something would exist in the world, it develops because of the world and the characters, not because it might happen to match up with a trope. And if that something wouldn't exist/happen/whatnot, then don't do it, even if doing so would fulfill someone's preference for a certain plot device, trope, or extraneous out-world rule. To have events in the story have no relation to what's on the other side of the Fourth Wall, except in where you as the author choose to place those windows.

Make sense?

Yes. If you write your story universe to have some things, then you should not break those things too hard later. But still, you can write whatever you like so long as it "fits", at least through simply being written in a way we can accept.

Kinda like the kid who pretends not to like a food in order to avoid trying it -- to avoid change, or whatever -- but if they do finally try give it a chance with a positive attitude towards it finds out he/she likes it.

I simply must note that there is still a lot of food I have held off on since childhood, then I tried a bite when I was older, and promptly quit eating it once more. Sometimes bad food is bad food, even if it's just my taste.

[bonesiii]

I still find it interesting Mavrah's by himself here. Kopaka's Akaku confirms he was hiding alone. Does this mean Mavrah's the only "normal" revived one here

I've been wondering that too. I bet, though, that the RS is too big to see all of it with the Akaku, and Mavrah was about to lead them to a group of others. But I also suspect it's a small group, maybe that used to have other familiar ones that have since fallen.

It's not normal for people to forget they murdered people, no.

It is if you've done it a thousand times already and it's part of your everyday work.

Can I just lol at how that sounds?

Generally repetition makes things easier to remember, but anywho. All I'm saying is, it's evidence for the theory. All you're saying, I think, is that there's another somewhat plausible theory. Not that the one theory being possible disproves the other, right?

But the thing is, as I've said earlier, there are plenty of other clues that the forgetfulness/insane theory would explain. Just momentary shock wouldn't, so how would you explain those other things? Like why didn't they come up with some other means to send them back?

And we know the RS even connects to the MU in flight mode. At least for a while previous to 1000 years you'd think there'd be an airlock connection or the like, yet Gaardus is said to have been there much earlier, placing the time after which it hasn't worked way back. Insanity / mental problems would explain why they instead kill them, and apparently keep dissecting them even though it's not helping find anything. Plus would explain all of what they said even after they got over the initial shock (and like I said, the first one seems to forget what the second one had just reminded him of moments later).





I thought of something to add onto my previous reply to Kahi.

I've never really had a sound dislike for Greg's writing, no, but recently I have had some problem with his plot planning and general adherence to common media tropes.

I'm curious if you could elaborate on this. Just thinking it over myself, and from what I saw on That Trope Site I Forget If We're Allowed To Mention (irony!), anything and everything in nearly all fiction can be (and has been) matched up with a trope. Greg's early writing and late writing with no noticeable difference as far as I can tell.

I wonder if perhaps you simply became more aware of the idea of tropes as you got older and saw how later new story matched up with some, but previous to that you didn't think about it? I would argue that many people complained that the early years were very tropey and that Bionicle moved away from many of the more common ones. But it would help to know which ones you mean, if you don't mind getting a little tangential for interest's sake.

Edited by bonesiii, Sep 22 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[Darkon219]

What I think:

System teleporting to the Red Star definitely did not work fully automatically in the same way for all subjects. Namely, when a Matoran, remember the worker required to work for Mata Nui is dead in an accident such as lava fell on him from the furnaces in Ta-Metru or sink as Marvah then Mata Nui as the assumption of the Great Beings while flying in space he would be informed at some interface or what he had there, and not even looking at it closely, because as we all know he was not interested in what was going in the inside of him. He accepted the request of the system, such as "Do you want to send the dead Matoran to a Red Star". In case of death of any Vortixx or Skakdi is the same or not. My point is that it is not known whether Mata Nui at all for some time after the start, would use such a system and whether or not such a system would operate in this manner, however I don't know if it was an automatic system?. If so, That individual would not disappear immediately in front of the rest. Maybe the character who died first would have to be prepared for the teleportation lightly touching on such things as in Greek mythology?

Anyway, what I wrote is just my theory quite plausible that it may not prove to be true until we receive more information from Greg. There is still one thing I came up with for Makuta: Mata Nui certainly knew about teleporting to the Red Star, and he created the Makuta. While creating them he gave them the opportunity to existence as Antidermis after the destruction of their bodies. Of course, Makuta had to evolve first. I think it may have some connection.

And don't get used to this reincarnation stuff. Remember that it never worked at all and there wasn't such a thing as "I see dead people" AND Lihkan couldn't be teleported coz his dead was just after the Great Cataclysm.







Sorry for bad english I had to post the same thing on two forums with another languages and put all of this text to the google translator.

[toa kopaka4372]

Something that has still been bugging me is how exactly resurrections worked back when the Red Star was still fully functional, if we are to assume it's been damaged for 80,000 years. I mean, did they simply resurrect the beings and send them back? How did the Red Star's purpose remain secret? Even if the Kestora told the revived beings to not breathe a word about it, that wouldn't have stopped old friends from suddenly seeing a person whom they had witnessed die back and alive. There would be questions. It doesn't make sense. Let's take Lesovikk's team as an example. At the time they died the Red Star was still operating; wouldn't they have been sent back? Wouldn't they have tried to find Lesovikk? I find it hard to swallow they never encountered each other again, especially since word of the their probable heroic deeds would spread once they got back. It doesn't seem to make sense.

Another thing; does the Order of Mata Nui know about this? The evidence seems to point to no; otherwise they wouldn't have bothered eliminating those who knew of Artakha's location. Also, the Toa Mata were told they had to waste the majority of their lives in the Codrex so they wouldn't be killed before the universe needed them; and yet why bother, now that we know about the Red Star's function? Weren't they following Mata Nui's will? It would seem that Mata Nui himself doesn't know about this.

I hope all this gets clarified one way or another.

[Katuko]

But the thing is, as I've said earlier, there are plenty of other clues that the forgetfulness/insane theory would explain. Just momentary shock wouldn't, so how would you explain those other things? Like why didn't they come up with some other means to send them back?

Because if their equipment is broken and they're stuck on a floating space station they simply don't have the resources to rebuild it from scratch? Machinery that rebuilds dead individuals and teleports them back to where they're supposed to be sounds like something that would require more than just some scrap metal, soldering and a battery to fix.

When all you got is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. If the Kestora only have a broken machine, a lot of people who are supposed to be dead/alive and rayguns, then there's not all that much they can do except trying to tear something open to look at the nternal workings. However, if the Great Beings built the place and the Kestora can't fix it at the present time, that leaves only those wrongly resurrected to check on.

Once more: If you view the MU inhabitants as not-quite-living due to their original AI nature, then the Kestora do not have to be insane to view them as expendable. Imagine scientists here on Earth building robots with programmed personality. Chances are, they would be willing to tear a few of them open again if it meant resolving an issue with the rest of them; or some other machinery they need the parts for. They made the robot, they know that no matter how human it seems, it's an AI. Sure, the MU inhabitants have true sentience, but do the Kestora view it that way, or do they see the people of the MU as simple worker bees to dissect in order to find out why the hive isn't built right anymore?

I thought of something to add onto my previous reply to Kahi.

I wonder if perhaps you simply became more aware of the idea of tropes as you got older and saw how later new story matched up with some, but previous to that you didn't think about it? I would argue that many people complained that the early years were very tropey and that Bionicle moved away from many of the more common ones. But it would help to know which ones you mean, if you don't mind getting a little tangential for interest's sake.

They say that a media education and/or that-trope-site will destroy your perception and enjoyment of the media because you start analyzing, but it's not all true. With my experience in both (education and tropes) I can say that I enjoy stuff just as much as I used to, I can just more easily put into words why I like or dislike certain things.

So if someone asks me why I like the Bag of Holding in D&D so much when it's just a simple item, I can reply that I like it because it's an explanation for how Hammerspace works in this universe; and if I'm asked why I'm not fond of the Deck of Many Things spell from that same universe, I can say that it's because the randomness can break games, and the randomness allows a fiction writer just pull Deus Ex Machina plot solutions or Diabolus Ex Machina plot twists from it if he writes badly.

Something that has still been bugging me is how exactly resurrections worked back when the Red Star was still fully functional, if we are to assume it's been damaged for 80,000 years. I mean, did they simply resurrect the beings and send them back? How did the Red Star's purpose remain secret? Even if the Kestora told the revived beings to not breathe a word about it, that wouldn't have stopped old friends from suddenly seeing a person whom they had witnessed die back and alive. There would be questions. It doesn't make sense. Let's take Lesovikk's team as an example. At the time they died the Red Star was still operating; wouldn't they have been sent back? Wouldn't they have tried to find Lesovikk? I find it hard to swallow they never encountered each other again, especially since word of the their probable heroic deeds would spread once they got back. It doesn't seem to make sense.

I got the vibe that it's never worked properly, so the issue never popped up. If dead people had been coming back ever since the initial stages of the MU, then its inhabitants would be cool with it and not think much of it, I suppose. It would just be a part of their lives.

Edited by Katuko, Sep 23 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[Meta-Mind]

Something I pointed out in the "afterlife" topic: in The Final Battle, Krika said something to Gali about a Makuta legend, by which everything a Makuta put out into the universe would be returned to them when they died. In a less supernatural vein than I suggested there, though, could this mean that the Makuta had some knowledge (perhaps passed down in prophecy from Mata Nui or the GBs) of what fate awaited them on the Red Star?

There's always the possibility that this was just a legend, but if it has any relation to the Red Star...

[bonesiii]

however I don't know if it was an automatic system?

The Kestora seem to imply it is. When they see Kopaka and Pohatu they speak as if they assume they were just revived, and act like they can go back on their own (though they seem to forget momentarily that this is not working). And then they theorize that the problem with the sending back is something in the revived person, and hope that dissecting them will show this.

Of course, they also say doing so didn't show any explanation before (that they remember anyways lol), so their theory may be wrong.

And don't get used to this reincarnation stuff. Remember that it never worked at all

Actually it appears the Kestora confirmed that it did work until Gaardus went there long ago. But hasn't worked since (the sendback anyways). And I strongly suspect it was likely to be destroyed or lost in some way at the end of TPTB.

Something that has still been bugging me is how exactly resurrections worked back when the Red Star was still fully functional, if we are to assume it's been damaged for 80,000 years. I mean, did they simply resurrect the beings and send them back? How did the Red Star's purpose remain secret? Even if the Kestora told the revived beings to not breathe a word about it, that wouldn't have stopped old friends from suddenly seeing a person whom they had witnessed die back and alive. There would be questions. It doesn't make sense.

Well, first of all, who says that those who are revived normally know where they are? You'd see that you were in tunnels, and presumably go to some teleportation pad by direction (of signs, Kestora, or whatnot). Then you'd be home. You wouldn't know what secret to tell.

Gaardus likely knows because he has his own power of teleportation and must think about where his destination is to go there. And he told Kopaka and Pohatu. The Kestora might also be loose-lipped about it; they easily let slip that they were not in Mata Nui. But again, it appears that normally there was a smooth process with no need for such a conversation -- possibly they wouldn't normally even meet a Kestora.

And whether they are told where they are or not, like I said earlier, presumably directions or Kestora instruct them not to tell anyone what happened.

However, do we know it was supposed to remain a secret? A lot of 'secrets' in Bionicle were common knowledge long ago in the early history of the MU but became forgotten or turned into twisted legends or barely remembered myths when something caused them not to affect the lives of those who would remember. In this case, it stopped sending anyone back, so those still alive in the giant robot would not notice any difference anymore.

Finally, there are two extremely simple cover stories. "Mata Nui brought me back!" or "The Great Beings brought me back!" that the people would easily believe. And both are true in a sense.

Also, even if some people knew the secret, knowing it and being able to act on it are two very different things. Originally nobody was supposed to be able to choose to do evil. So knowing what one piece of the machinery you live in and maintain does is irrelevant. Quite possibly later the Order purged knowledge too when it became evident some were choosing evil.

At the time they died the Red Star was still operating; wouldn't they have been sent back? Wouldn't they have tried to find Lesovikk? I find it hard to swallow they never encountered each other again, especially since word of the their probable heroic deeds would spread once they got back. It doesn't seem to make sense.

I haven't bothered to compare dates on such things, so I'll just take your word on it for now. But admittedly that is a tricky one.

It's always possible some were given new missions. I see several ways he wouldn't.

Death while doing right could indicate you are a "good worker" and be sent to the secretive Artakha.

Death while on the wrong track for your destiny could possibly have you be sent to any other secretive location to pursue another destiny (maybe while being revived a system checks your destiny; the RS has been connected to destiny before in MNOG, so 'twould make sense). Like you could become a servant of the Order on Daxia, or prior to the Brotherhood going publicly evil, one of their servants on Destral.

But it's also possible Lesovikk simply despaired and never went home.

Plus, later on Toa were being murdered by the Brotherhood and Dark Hunters, and currently there are far less than there originally were. Any of those three explanations or others could explain part of the time when he didn't find them, until later they were killed after the sendback stopped working. Or an accident or some other such thing earlier.

There's also this:

When he returned to his village, he found out that the Turaga had gone mad and had sent the entire Matoran population to Karzahni, including Sarda and Idris. He then spent tens of thousands of years wandering the universe, looking for his friends and trying to redeem himself.

Who knows why he went mad -- but there was no home to return to. So the other Toa could have found the same thing and left for the same reason, and the two moving groups simply never happened to meet, until something happened to the other Toa perhaps, etc.

Another thing; does the Order of Mata Nui know about this? The evidence seems to point to no; otherwise they wouldn't have bothered eliminating those who knew of Artakha's location

Unless they did it in a way that couldn't be revived. But when did they do that? If after it stopped working, it would still be effective.

Same answer for the Mata -- presumably it's still possible to get killed without being revived in various ways.

Once more: If you view the MU inhabitants as not-quite-living due to their original AI nature, then the Kestora do not have to be insane to view them as expendable.

Yes, I was wondering the same thing. They -are- a different species. So they may simply suffer from a form of racism, but based on the AI thing. Still, the GBs knew they were living, so you'd think they would have told the Kestora -- once again, memory problems would seemingly be needed to explain such a view.

And of course, it could be argued you have to be a little of either insane or evil to view other beings that way.

They say that a media education and/or that-trope-site will destroy your perception and enjoyment of the media because you start analyzing, but it's not all true.

Well, this is why I started out by saying that the attitude people should take to that out-story stuff is purely as an extra thing for fun, as long as what is done in-story makes sense according to motivations and abilities of the characters who drive it (as this clearly does) -- to not take those trope type observations seriously when it comes to actually judging the story. (At least with character-based story as Greg has confirmed this is.) So I would say that it appears you are doing that, while perhaps Kahi isn't quite.

Anywho...

[Katuko]

Once more: If you view the MU inhabitants as not-quite-living due to their original AI nature, then the Kestora do not have to be insane to view them as expendable.

Yes, I was wondering the same thing. They -are- a different species. So they may simply suffer from a form of racism, but based on the AI thing. Still, the GBs knew they were living, so you'd think they would have told the Kestora -- once again, memory problems would seemingly be needed to explain such a view.

And of course, it could be argued you have to be a little of either insane or evil to view other beings that way.

That last sentence is where some real-life conflicts stem from. Leaving out racism because it's a terribly touchy subject, we can use hunting as an example. Some people are fine with shooting animals for sport/food, thinking that it's part of the natural cycle of life. Others find it horrifying, animal abuse, murder for fun rather than necessity, etc. Meanwhile, both groups can often agree on saving the wildlife, species threatened by extinction, preserving nature, etc. Viewpoint has a lot to say here. The Kestora might do dissection for the lulz, or they might have a different view of it than us, or they simply not care about morals because they don't have a concept of it. In any case, I don't think they'll be fixing the Red Star via dissection.

[jala12]

So does this mean people like Lhikan and Sidorak can now be alive again? Lol.

[bonesiii]

That last sentence is where some real-life conflicts stem from. Leaving out racism because it's a terribly touchy subject, we can use hunting as an example. Some people are fine with shooting animals for sport/food, thinking that it's part of the natural cycle of life. Others find it horrifying, animal abuse, murder for fun rather than necessity, etc. Meanwhile, both groups can often agree on saving the wildlife, species threatened by extinction, preserving nature, etc. Viewpoint has a lot to say here.

I should have said "sapient" that the GBs knew the MU inhabitants were at least partially. Both Kestora and the beings they revive are all sapient, not just sentient & living like animals. Of course, it's always possible the GBs never told them that.

[Katuko]

I should have said "sapient" that the GBs knew the MU inhabitants were at least partially. Both Kestora and the beings they revive are all sapient, not just sentient & living like animals. Of course, it's always possible the GBs never told them that.

Ah, but I believe at least one group of animal activists have said that they view animals as intelligent and/or sapient, just that they don't express it in the same way as humans.

But anyways, if the sapience did not occur until a bit after the MU was operational, then the Great Beings might know while the Kestora don't. I think I'll wait for more dialogue from them before I pass my judgement.

[toa kopaka4372]

@Meta-Mind I doubt they knew about the Red Star, since they reacted to their impending doom in such horror-filled ways. If the disintegration theory is correct, that could be explained with them knowing the storm would end them for good, maybe...

@TNT-DG Vezon The idea that they're something resembling zombies does keep coming to me.

@bonesii Your explanation on how people could have forgotten about the Red Star as time went by could work, but this line from Gaardus does make me think that people who go to the Red Star remember their resurrection:

“I could bring you. But I do not want to return there. No one ever does.”

Mainly the "no one ever does" part, which implies that, but I guess that's irrelevant in light of your suggested scenarios.

Just to make sure, I did confirm that Lesovikk's team died 100,000 years ago. In any case, your suggested scenarios, despite being a little convoluted, are plausible. However, there is a simpler explanation; it was their destiny to die so they weren't resurrected; this would require the theory that those who achieve their destiny don't get resurrected to work, and I understand the theory doesn't make complete sense in-story. Hm....

Right now I'm extremely curious as the the exact time this plot twist was planned, especially because I realize now it's very possible the Order of Mata Nui knew about the Red Star. Let's just go with the "disintegrated/incinerated = permanent death" idea from here. Is it a coincidence Tobduk carried out virtually all his assassinations with one distinct method?

Sure enough, he incinerated/disintegrated all his targets. Let's review:

Kojol- Destroyed armor and obliterated energy form.
Tridax: Incinerated energy form.

If the Red Star's function was planned from 2007, it would give a whole new perspective on the high number of death by disintegration in 2008...

I was looking through Riddle of the Great Beings, and I could not help but notice how the point of the Red Star in the serial was never explained. It was on piece of metal Tarduk found, but was never truly elaborated on? Why did Greg bother including it in the serial if it played no part in its story? Here are descriptions of what Tarduk found.

Fishing it out, he found it was a square of metal, about twice the size of his hand and obviously broken off of something larger. Inscribed on it was a circle with a much smaller circle inside and at the bottom of it.

He turned the piece of metal over, hoping there would be another symbol on the back. Instead, he found something quite different. A map had been scratched into the metal. Some of the places on it he recognized, some he did not. At the bottom of the map was a mountain chain that looked a great deal like the Black Spike Mountains to the north. The features drawn just below the mountains seemed to bear out that it was the same range. Most of the map was areas north of the mountains, though, a region he was not familiar with. All he really knew about it was the Skrall were said to come from there. At the top of the map, there were two more symbols, but a bit different from the ones he had found before. One was just a mesh of interconnected lines looking almost like a net or a web. The other was a star. What made that last interesting was that it was the only symbol that was colored. The star was red.

The circle Tarduk found was likely a letter from the Matoran language, and the description leads me to believe it was an "A". Then of course you have the symbol of the Red Star. It could be connected to the Spirit's Wish gate, but I'm curious about the rest of the map, since Tarduk only found a portion. Moreso, why was a letter from the Matoran language inscribed on it? If this belonged to the GBs, wouldn't they write in their own language. It could've been done to prevent others from understanding it, but still....
I'm wondering if Greg was trying to give us a hint with this. The true function of the Red Star was almost cetainly planned at this point, since Greg knew about Bionicle's end from 2008, and he could've been in the process of planning out the future serials during this time. Just something to think about.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

If this belonged to the GBs, wouldn't they write in their own language. It could've been done to prevent others from understanding it, but still.

Exactly. No one on Bara Magna knew how to read Matoran.

[bonesiii]

I should have said "sapient" that the GBs knew the MU inhabitants were at least partially. Both Kestora and the beings they revive are all sapient, not just sentient & living like animals. Of course, it's always possible the GBs never told them that.

Ah, but I believe at least one group of animal activists have said that they view animals as intelligent and/or sapient, just that they don't express it in the same way as humans.

But anyways, if the sapience did not occur until a bit after the MU was operational, then the Great Beings might know while the Kestora don't. I think I'll wait for more dialogue from them before I pass my judgement.

We're talking about Bionicle, so that analogy breaks down. Of course, it's worth noting that some Rahi are sapient too. Anywho...

@bonesii Your explanation on how people could have forgotten about the Red Star as time went by could work, but this line from Gaardus does make me think that people who go to the Red Star remember their resurrection:

I meant other people who hadn't died.

However, there is a simpler explanation; it was their destiny to die so they weren't resurrected; this would require the theory that those who achieve their destiny don't get resurrected to work, and I understand the theory doesn't make complete sense in-story. Hm....

Well, it's possible. My arguments against it I think are more likely, but maybe only by a little. A lot depends on what these "resources" are and just how hard it would be to make a new being versus revivals. Plus, let's keep in mind there must not be such a shortage of materials that new beings couldn't be made since this is what was forced to happen since the sendback didn't work.

One argument I can think of for the destiny thing would be that even though fulfilled beings are still useful, the MU might need new destinies to be sought, so may sometimes need new beings to replace old ones without reviving the old ones at all. But this could get pretty complicated, so I dunno.

Right now I'm extremely curious as the the exact time this plot twist was planned, especially because I realize now it's very possible the Order of Mata Nui knew about the Red Star. Let's just go with the "disintegrated/incinerated = permanent death" idea from here. Is it a coincidence Tobduk carried out virtually all his assassinations with one distinct method?


Sure enough, he incinerated/disintegrated all his targets.

Interesting. More possible foreshadowing, heh.

I really think the evidence is very strong that it was established by 2006. Probably the strongest evidence for this is the red lightstones thing -- it need not be taken as evidence that the 777 device actually backed up Matoro; that is a more indirect theory. But at the very least, I think the color red was intended to be associated with revival in our minds as an intentional clue (probably by the GBs too, not just the story team). Red lightstones are certainly not a normal thing in other portrayals of the Bionicle universe, and this is in the same year (after) the RS is brought back, with the red lightning, etc.

I was looking through Riddle of the Great Beings, and I could not help but notice how the point of the Red Star in the serial was never explained. It was on piece of metal Tarduk found, but was never truly elaborated on? Why did Greg bother including it in the serial if it played no part in its story?
...
I'm wondering if Greg was trying to give us a hint with this. The true function of the Red Star was almost cetainly planned at this point, since Greg knew about Bionicle's end from 2008, and he could've been in the process of planning out the future serials during this time. Just something to think about.

Oh, definitely. That story was clearly about building up to a big reveal about the RS. The timing of it all actually worked out really well; the only real problem is that Greg stopped writing TPTB so we didn't get to see the way he would have revealed it beyond what was published.

So anyways, I would say it's highly likely he planned it by the start of 2006 (in planning during 2005 or earlier), and several clues towards this were dropped along the way. BTW, another is that the RS was populated by Kestora, or as Gali put it originally, "beings", with the implication being that they were not just Matoran or other typical MU beings, so they had to have a special role, implying the RS did, besides merely a booster rocket. That part of what it does I think was given along the way partly to add to the possible surprise factor when the main purpose was revealed. But if it was just a booster rocket, then you'd think beings from the MU could have been put there, esp. Matoran, to maintain it, since maintenance is what they were designed for.

You know, perhaps the simplest theory of all to explain the Kestora's apparently odd attitude towards the beings is that even prior to the sendback breaking, they may have had to make active decisions about who to revive and send back. So all these theories about "if their destiny is fulfilled" and "if they're evil" and the like may all have one answer which could be "the Kestora decide."

This would seem to contradict a bit of evidence, though (that it seems the reviving is automatic... but maybe it wasn't originally, who knows?) -- but it would help explain how they jumped to re-killing and dissecting, since they would already be in a similar position of having authority over life and death as a matter of course. Just another random thought to lob into the mix.

[toa kopaka4372]

I meant other people who hadn't died

Oh sorry, I should've phrased that better. The first part of my statement was referring to the people who didn't die, the second part to the people who did. Sorry, I should've been clearer. My point was people who didn't die could forget about it, but the ones who did and were revived would likely never have forgotten, so the secret could still have slipped out of someone.

You know, perhaps the simplest theory of all to explain the Kestora's apparently odd attitude towards the beings is that even prior to the sendback breaking, they may have had to make active decisions about who to revive and send back. So all these theories about "if their destiny is fulfilled" and "if they're evil" and the like may all have one answer which could be "the Kestora decide."

This would seem to contradict a bit of evidence, though (that it seems the reviving is automatic... but maybe it wasn't originally, who knows?) -- but it would help explain how they jumped to re-killing and dissecting, since they would already be in a similar position of having authority over life and death as a matter of course. Just another random thought to lob into the mix.

This idea simplifies the whole situation, but it does call into question what their criteria for reviving specific individuals is. For example, if they have records of what each MU inhabitant did in his lifetime, and a certain person was labeled "destructive", then they'd remove them by not reviving them, kind of like deleting a virus. A person with a healthy record would be revived. This is mostly speculation, though, seeing as there is no proof to support it thus far.

I've been wondering about the Kestora's anatomy; I'm inclined to think they're mostly or fully organic, like SM's original inhabitants, because of the why they apparently treat MU inhabitants. If they were bio-mechanical like them I think they'd have a different attitude.

Pohatu looked down the hallway. Three small beings clad in purple and black armor were moving toward them. Something about them seemed vaguely familiar, like Pohatu had heard them described before, but he couldn’t remember when.

I think that Pohatu might have heard them described before from Takanuva (who encountered them in that pocket dimension), who could've told him in Karda Nui; Gali and Pohatu were the first to meet Takanuva when he arrived in Karda Nui anyways, so it makes sense. I can't really think of an alternate plausible explanation.

Like a few others here, I think it's likely the Red Star was to be destroyed in some way at the end of TPTB; it virtually had no more purpose in the story. If we assume that people on the surface of SM don't get sent there, then it was truly useless; there wasn't even a use left for its booster rocket function anymore. Besides, I think that would've been the best way to wrap up the doomed legacy of the Red Star. The Kestora would probably have died, along with all the other beings in the Red Star; I suspect death would've been a mercy if we are to think that they were distorted and in pain.

[bonesiii]

This idea simplifies the whole situation, but it does call into question what their criteria for reviving specific individuals is. For example, if they have records of what each MU inhabitant did in his lifetime, and a certain person was labeled "destructive", then they'd remove them by not reviving them, kind of like deleting a virus. A person with a healthy record would be revived. This is mostly speculation, though, seeing as there is no proof to support it thus far.

Well, one simple method would be if the AIs are stored as software, or accessible at least as software. They could simply review their memories. Presumably for the destiny thing there would be a system as well to inform them what the destinies are from the destiny system in the MU, which I doubt would be in their memories. But other things could be.

You know, come to think of it, the "don't revived destiny-fulfilled beings" theory does provide a reason for the RS to be inherently tuned to the destiny systems. Whether Kestora or automatic, this would help towards explaining why the original purpose of the RS in MNOG was connected to destiny via 'astrology.' Still not seeing how or who would make it move to form the constellations, but it's a step in that direction.

I've been wondering about the Kestora's anatomy; I'm inclined to think they're mostly or fully organic, like SM's original inhabitants, because of the why they apparently treat MU inhabitants. If they were bio-mechanical like them I think they'd have a different attitude.

For such questions we have BS01.

Much like other creations of the Great Beings, the Kestora are bio-mechanical in nature, and bear purple and black armor.

It would have made sense, but no. On the plus side, this means they would be well represented in set/MOC form.

I think that Pohatu might have heard them described before from Takanuva (who encountered them in that pocket dimension), who could've told him in Karda Nui; Gali and Pohatu were the first to meet Takanuva when he arrived in Karda Nui anyways, so it makes sense. I can't really think of an alternate plausible explanation.

Yeah, pretty sure that's all that meant.

Unless the Toa Mata or just Pohatu could have met Kestora somehow prior to entering the canisters... but I highly doubt it.

Like a few others here, I think it's likely the Red Star was to be destroyed in some way at the end of TPTB; it virtually had no more purpose in the story. If we assume that people on the surface of SM don't get sent there, then it was truly useless; there wasn't even a use left for its booster rocket function anymore. Besides, I think that would've been the best way to wrap up the doomed legacy of the Red Star. The Kestora would probably have died, along with all the other beings in the Red Star; I suspect death would've been a mercy if we are to think that they were distorted and in pain.

Yanno, it's quite possible that the most valuable component of the Red Star now is simply the power source. I have theorized before that it must be one of the most powerful in existence, not as much as Mata Nui, but I get the impression Mata Nui's is far more taxed to near its limit by normal operation, hence why some of the more challenging functions are relegated to the RS.

With both those functions -- reviving and booster -- now irrelevant, maybe Velika is after the RS for the power source itself?

For some "grand plan" that requires a lot of energy. On Spherus Magna.

As to what that might be, no idea lol.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Could we consider the Red Star revival system 'reincarnation'?

[Tehurye]

Spoiler

I had guessed at the truth quite some time ago, so this didn't surprise me too much.

Still, it's very interesting.

Matoro's not coming back, of course. Aside from the obvious fact that it would be a horrible storyline idea, Matoro's death was different, unique. It would ruin the integrity of his sacrafice and his heroism.

But something occured to my brother, who just passed it on to me. Toa Lhikan... maybe? There's certainly a lot more to discover about this, since every dead person coming back would be... quite absurd. The Kestora have clearly killed multiple beings up there... I doubt the Kestora were part of Mata Nui's plans!

Most likely only a few are actually remaining up there, Mavrah, of course, being one of them.

Hmmm... perhaps the Kestora are the rebodied dead beings?

[bonesiii]

Could we consider the Red Star revival system 'reincarnation'?

I wouldn't. If their memories are erased, though, you could make the case. The term usually means that it's really a totally new person, but with the same basic personality or some more mystical connection to a past life with perhaps occasional flashes into memories of them. A total memory wipe could count as that in a sense.

But until told otherwise I think it's far more likely they keep at least most of their memories (for reasons explained earlier, ask if you need me to repeat ), and thus it's just revival, not reincarnation.

I had guessed at the truth quite some time ago, so this didn't surprise me too much.

Still, it's very interesting.

Matoro's not coming back, of course. Aside from the obvious fact that it would be a horrible storyline idea, Matoro's death was different, unique. It would ruin the integrity of his sacrafice and his heroism.

But something occured to my brother, who just passed it on to me. Toa Lhikan... maybe? There's certainly a lot more to discover about this, since every dead person coming back would be... quite absurd. The Kestora have clearly killed multiple beings up there... I doubt the Kestora were part of Mata Nui's plans!

Most likely only a few are actually remaining up there, Mavrah, of course, being one of them.

Hmmm... perhaps the Kestora are the rebodied dead beings?

(Just so this is clear, spoilertags are no longer needed, so I'm not carrying them over. )

We don't know for sure that Matoro wouldn't come back, but it does seem virtually guaranteed he won't, yeah.

I think Lhikan is a strong possibility. I get the impression as I mentioned earlier that the reviver itself might not be making perfectly formed beings now, and those who died in the era of Lhikan and Mavrah may be the most recent who are formed properly. Anyone after the thousand years of Rahi raids and such could thus be ruled out -- but strong cases could be made against this reasoning too. Probably the most likely theory is that anyone who was not disintegrated or otherwise had their spirit destroyed was revived.

Yanno, we've been listing beings who were disintegrated and thus probably ruled out. But let's try a list of those who weren't, and are likely to be revived. I'm too busy at moment to try it though.

I'm pretty sure we can say conclusively that the Kestora are not the revived. It's possible, of course, that they did die too in the past and were revived, but they are clearly stated to be their own type of creation of the GBs, and Mavrah wears a mask so he's not a Kestora, etc. Plus, the system was normally supposed to send beings back, so they had to be in their proper forms, not Kestora -- and Kestora were supposed to be maintainers who stayed on the RS (as they have... at least the staying part...).

[toa kopaka4372]

@bonesii Silly me, I can't believe I didn't check the Kestora's page just to make sure it wasn't known.

Yanno, we've been listing beings who were disintegrated and thus probably ruled out. But let's try a list of those who weren't, and are likely to be revived. I'm too busy at moment to try it though

I'm on it.

Just for the sake of completeness, I'm going to compile a list of both who is likely to have been revived and who probably wasn't. Just to be clear, this list is based on two theories, that if you are disintegrated/obliterated/completely destroyed you are not revived, and that MU inhabitants who die outside the MU are not revived. If these theories are proven wrong anytime in the future, this list is irrelevant.

Those who are probably dead permanently (were never revived)
Ancient
Antroz
Bitil
Carapar
Chirox
Gorast
Original Hydraxon
Icarax
Karzahni (Being)
Kojol
Krekka
Krika
Makuta of Stelt
Matoro
Mutran
Nidhiki
Nocturn
Spiriah
Teridax
Tren Krom
Tridax
Vamprah


Beings who could possibly be revived
Botar
Guardian
Ihu
Jovan
Lhikan
Sidorak
Nikila
Reysa

Beings whose causes of death are unknown or whose qualifications are unknown(could or couldn't be revived)
Naho
Kodan
Karzahni (Plant)
Morbuzakh

The last list included those whom we have no idea were killed by which method, at least for Naho and Kodan. As for the other two, we haven't really discussed if plants can get revived, so...

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

@Toa Kopaka4372

I know that the Karzahni and the Morbuzahk aren't up there because they are technically Makuta creations. And rahi aren't on the red star.

[CarkaJack]

And let's not forget the Kestora are cruel by nature. They have, at least in all of their few appearences, made many other beings' lives miserable. Be it dissecting The Red Star Zombies or killing all the City Building Creatures.

I know that the Karzahni and the Morbuzahk aren't up there because they are technically Makuta creations. And rahi aren't on the red star.

But what about he skittery noise Kopaka heard?

The sounds were coming closer now. Some sounded like rodents skittering, others like bodies being dragged across a metal floor. At one point, they saw a lighted corridor up ahead, but as they approached, the lights went off there too. Worse, the noises were starting to come from up ahead as well as behind.

Edited by CarkaJack, Sep 24 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

That's where the insane-zombielike-malfunction theory comes from.

EDIT: I think someone may have jumped the gun on Kodan's page like they did on Teridax's.
http://biosector01.c...index.php/Kodan

Is this right?

Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon, Sep 24 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[bonesiii]

That's where the insane-zombielike-malfunction theory comes from.

EDIT: I think someone may have jumped the gun on Kodan's page like they did on Teridax's.
http://biosector01.c...index.php/Kodan

Is this right?

No, looking at the history, looks like this was in FROGGER0's original round of edits, but slipped by staff.

Basically, if you don't hear it from Greg, none of these are going to be right.

[The Forbidden Entity]

Fixed Kodan. Will be happy to fix any other missed if notified

[Magnetic Vorahk]

Spoiler

Hmmm... perhaps the Kestora are the rebodied dead beings?

Dude.

You could be on to something.

[bonesiii]

It should be noted that Matoro's revival from the 777 stairs device may rebunk the idea that disintegration means you can't come back. I re-read that scene while looking for Velika quotes (as mentioned in the other topic), and not only is he killed by disintegration, his mask disintegrates too.

So possibly only a "spirit disintegration" effect can permanently kill, and IMO the only clear candidate for this is ironically Matoro as the Mask of Life was said to spend every ounce of energy related to him. Perhaps it works differently with antidermis, though.

[XyzTheDay!]

Just for clarification; it's the person's spirit that gets transported to the Red Star, correct? Not their body? Or is it body and spirit? I've been picturing the Kestora transplanting the spirit into a new body, so I'm assuming that it's spirit-only.

[bonesiii]

Just for clarification; it's the person's spirit that gets transported to the Red Star, correct? Not their body? Or is it body and spirit? I've been picturing the Kestora transplanting the spirit into a new body, so I'm assuming that it's spirit-only.

We simply don't know.

[Alyska]

Given that Lesovikk has appeared in The Powers That Be, I'm now wondering whether Greg was planning to bring Nikila back into the story...