450 replies to this topic

[XyzTheDay!]

We simply don't know.

Darn. Well, I guess I'll just maintain my spirit-only assumption then, unless/until new information comes out on the matter.

Given that Lesovikk has appeared in The Powers That Be, I'm now wondering whether Greg was planning to bring Nikila back into the story...

Woah, nice catch...and thinking about it, I would have loved to have seen that; I always thought Nikila was cool and I would have definitely enjoyed a little resolution plot between her and Lesovikk.

And judging by this old quote that I happened upon while sifting through the archives, it seems that we would, in fact, have learned how Jaller's resurrection correlated to the Red Star:

I will give you a scoop, which you can share (or not) as you choose -- a big part of the rest of this serial is going to take place inside the red star ... which is NOT altogether for what people think it is for ... and I will give you some things to keep in mind:

1) The beings in the red star
2) Jaller's death and rebirth in MOL, and exactly how and why it happened.
3) Why it was safe for Teridax to kill so many Makuta over the years

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 26 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[Kraahlix]

Sorry for coming late to the conversation, but has the idea been discussed that a revived being would not return as his former self?
So more of an eastern religion reincarnation type of thing? I think on the podcast you focused on the interpretation that the characters themselves would return.

[XyzTheDay!]

Sorry for coming late to the conversation, but has the idea been discussed that a revived being would not return as his former self?
So more of an eastern religion reincarnation type of thing? I think on the podcast you focused on the interpretation that the characters themselves would return.

I myself entertained that idea at first. I was thinking something along the lines of the Kestora reprocessing the deceased being's consciousness into a new one before transplanting it into a new body and sending them back down to the MU, but that theory soon came into conflict with the fact that Mavrah has clearly been revived and yet still retains his former identity.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 26 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[Refy L.S.]

I myself entertained that idea at first. I was thinking something along the lines of the Kestora reprocessing the deceased being's consciousness into a new one before transplanting it into a new body and sending them back down to the MU, but that theory soon came into conflict with the fact that Mavrah has clearly been revived and yet still retains his former identity.

Perhaps Mavrah had not been "processed" yet? When spirits are sent back to the MU it could just be that they loose all memories when they are in their new body.
It also kind of confuses me where the reincarnated would appear in the MU, and how they were supposed to fit in.

[Tehurye]

I'm pretty sure we can say conclusively that the Kestora are not the revived. It's possible, of course, that they did die too in the past and were revived, but they are clearly stated to be their own type of creation of the GBs, and Mavrah wears a mask so he's not a Kestora, etc. Plus, the system was normally supposed to send beings back, so they had to be in their proper forms, not Kestora -- and Kestora were supposed to be maintainers who stayed on the RS (as they have... at least the staying part...).

That does make sense... you see, I was under the impression that the beings were not limited to being reconstructed with bodies that were identical to their previous ones. In fact, I was almost counting on their being sent back with a different body. I'm forget where I got that idea... ...what do you think?

Perhaps Mavrah had not been "processed" yet?

Yes, Mavrah is very resourceful. I think it's quite possible that he just escaped processing and has been hiding out here... unless there's a new turn in the next serial. We'll have to wait to find out...

And something occured to me: If it was safe for Teridax to kill off his own Makuta (because they just would have been sent back, someday) then perhaps it was safe for the Order of Mata Nui to kill so many of its own agents who knew the location of Artahka. But here's the catch: why would it have been safe if they had been sent back with all their memories intact? They'd still know the location. Perhaps the Kestora or whoever or whatever tends the Red Star would give them a complete memory wipe. Butn then how would it have been safe for Teridax to kill other Makuta if they had been sent back with a complete memory wipe? They'd be little use to him then, and might just go over to the other side. Same problem applies to the Order of Mata Nui agents.

So here's the solution: A selective memory wipe. Just wipe a few memories (like the location of Artahka) and send 'em back. Or wipe no memories at all, depending on the being. Or wipe most memories.

Mavrah has probably either escaped processing and still has all his old memories, or has been slectively wiped. So when the next serial arrives, it could be likely that we'd see a conversation like this:

Kopaka: blahblahblahblah... I thought you'd died on Metru Nui...

Mavrah: Metru Nui? What's that?

You can replace Metru Nui with any fact that would be known to Mavrah, likely a dangerous or important one. And it could have been wiped.

Suggestions?

[toa kopaka4372]

It should be noted that Matoro's revival from the 777 stairs device may rebunk the idea that disintegration means you can't come back. I re-read that scene while looking for Velika quotes (as mentioned in the other topic), and not only is he killed by disintegration, his mask disintegrates too.

So possibly only a "spirit disintegration" effect can permanently kill, and IMO the only clear candidate for this is ironically Matoro as the Mask of Life was said to spend every ounce of energy related to him. Perhaps it works differently with antidermis, though.

I re-read that scene, and it does seem to provide evidence against theory. However, we don't know how that system works; does it wok the same way the Red Star does? Moreso, was it ever confirmed Matoro truly died at that time? We only have the GB's word that it wasn't an illusion or something similar. BS01 does say Matoro was disintegrated, but I assume that's based only on what the GB said. But I'm probably just making excuses here, so yeah, it does seem to weaken the integrity of the theory a bit. Then again, we don't know if the destruction of the body destroys the spirit with it or not. If it does, then I'd be inclined to accept the idea as true regardless of what happened in the Chamber of Death.

I'm quite certain Antidermis works differently. Greg specifically said the essence gets teleported, and for the Makuta that means their antidermis. If it were totally destroyed, like in Teridax's or the Karda Nui (exclusing Krika and Icarax) Makuta's case, then I'd assume they're gone for good.

And something occured to me: If it was safe for Teridax to kill off his own Makuta (because they just would have been sent back, someday) then perhaps it was safe for the Order of Mata Nui to kill so many of its own agents who knew the location of Artahka. But here's the catch: why would it have been safe if they had been sent back with all their memories intact? They'd still know the location. Perhaps the Kestora or whoever or whatever tends the Red Star would give them a complete memory wipe. Butn then how would it have been safe for Teridax to kill other Makuta if they had been sent back with a complete memory wipe? They'd be little use to him then, and might just go over to the other side. Same problem applies to the Order of Mata Nui agents.

So here's the solution: A selective memory wipe. Just wipe a few memories (like the location of Artahka) and send 'em back. Or wipe no memories at all, depending on the being. Or wipe most memories.

This could work, except that if Teridax or the Order of Mata Nui did know about the Red Star, and they noticed no one was coming back, then they could've guessed something had gone wrong with the Red Star and did all that they did because they knew that the dead people wouldn't be coming back. Or it's simply possible, like I theorized earlier, that there are ways to permanently kill a being to ensure they don't get sent to the Red Star in the first place. A memory wipe would explain a lot about how the Red Star worked in the years before it malfunctioned though. I was kind of thinking the Red Star could essentially "recycled" spirits by erasing the deceased being's consciousness and transplanting a new one, but that wouldn't work because I don't think the Kestora have the ability or resources to do that. Mavrah seems to be the primary obstacle to any "memory wipe" theories, but it is possible that he's an exception, like others here have suggested.


'm still wondering how many Kestora operate the place. I'd think it'd be more than three. There could've been Kestora elsewhere on the Red Star. But what's even more interesting is how the Kestora, who are bio-mechanical, don't mind murdering other bio-mechanical beings. Is it possible the Great Beings did not originally intend for the Kestora to gain sentience and emotions just like they didn't intend for the MU inhabitants. It's possible.

[Alyska]

I don't actually see why a memory wipe would be necessary from the GBs' point of view. If one of the nanobots had an accident and died, wouldn't it be better for them to retain the data so that they didn't make that mistake again?

Greg has hinted that Jaller's revival was related to the Red Star, which, along with Mavrah's presence, implies that the dead beings are revived to be exactly the same as they were before. The reason Jaller didn't remember being resurrected in the Red Star (actually, we don't really know what Jaller remembers about dying, if anything), is because he was sent to the Red Star without a mask- he would have been unconscious until he was brought back by Takutanuva.

[Magnetic Vorahk]

I'm getting so frustrated that there's no new serial chapters, but we keep getting all this new information that would have been a lot cooler iv we had gotten it in serial chapters.

[bonesiii]

In fact, I was almost counting on their being sent back with a different body. I'm forget where I got that idea... ...what do you think?

I can see an argument for it (though not sure I agree ). Bionicle often features transformations. If someone dies, but hasn't achieved their destiny, then logically their former body might not be best adapted to seeking that destiny, so a transformation (in this case their new body having a new design) may be useful.

On the other hand, what if a person hasn't achieved their destiny, and died from a freak accident or a stroke of luck on an enemy's part, or just the person failing to concentrate, etc. -- and their former body is ideally designed for their destiny?

But anyways, I don't get the impression different forms are likely, as others said.

And something occured to me: If it was safe for Teridax to kill off his own Makuta (because they just would have been sent back, someday) then perhaps it was safe for the Order of Mata Nui to kill so many of its own agents who knew the location of Artahka. But here's the catch: why would it have been safe if they had been sent back with all their memories intact? They'd still know the location.

Well, I'm still holding out hope that there is a method of killing, especially of antidermis, that does not leave a revivable spirit or whatnot.

If we take the Matoro 777 revival as proof that at least one kind of disintegration doesn't prevent revival, this doesn't rule out all disintegration per se. I think it basically separated all his particles, kinda like turning him into a non-living version of Zaktan's protodites. Each of the particles was still intact, so as it put them together the way they were -- though an impossible task seemingly, it did so -- then it could simply "restart his heart" and bam he's back.

But if all the particles are burnt up, that may be a very different matter. So the energy storms killing the Karda Nui Makuta, perhaps a similar effect killing Artakha-knowers, etc. may still be permanently fatal.

So here's the solution: A selective memory wipe. Just wipe a few memories (like the location of Artahka) and send 'em back. Or wipe no memories at all, depending on the being. Or wipe most memories.

Then why not just use a selective memory wipe without killing?

Moreso, was it ever confirmed Matoro truly died at that time? We only have the GB's word that it wasn't an illusion or something similar. BS01 does say Matoro was disintegrated, but I assume that's based only on what the GB said. But I'm probably just making excuses here, so yeah, it does seem to weaken the integrity of the theory a bit.

Well there's another worthy search of the OGD to embark on.

[XyzTheDay!]

I'm getting so frustrated that there's no new serial chapters, but we keep getting all this new information that would have been a lot cooler iv we had gotten it in serial chapters.

Well hopefully Greg can return to writing them one day. I'm not in a rush about it, though.

I guess it's good for me that spoilers never really affect my enjoyment of a story so even with these updates, I'll still be able to enjoy any potential chapters.

Well there's another worthy search of the OGD to embark on.

On it.

And this is off-topic, but speaking of chapters, bonesiii, do you or anyone else from the BZP staff have a record of the ATYU 2 stories? I recall reading that those were canon, and even if it's not from Greg, I'd still like to see what got added. Although they're not mentioned anywhere on BS01; was the canonicity of the stories negated or something?

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 26 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[bonesiii]

See the S&T Contest history post in the One-Stop pinned topic.

Yes, Greg approved them for canon the same way he did the other S&T contest-winning stories (which are referenced on BS01). For whatever reason BS01's fan-made canon list is still out of date on that. My guess is that whoever is in charge of that page may be confusing the S&T system for BS01's contest system which wisely added a final-approval reading step by Greg, but he never demanded that step be required for all fan-created canon, and we carefully ensure all our entries fit pre-existing canon, etc. I should probably contact them about it but I've been too lazy / busy.

[Tehurye]

This could work, except that if Teridax or the Order of Mata Nui did know about the Red Star, and they noticed no one was coming back, then they could've guessed something had gone wrong with the Red Star and did all that they did because they knew that the dead people wouldn't be coming back. Or it's simply possible, like I theorized earlier, that there are ways to permanently kill a being to ensure they don't get sent to the Red Star in the first place. A memory wipe would explain a lot about how the Red Star worked in the years before it malfunctioned though. I was kind of thinking the Red Star could essentially "recycled" spirits by erasing the deceased being's consciousness and transplanting a new one, but that wouldn't work because I don't think the Kestora have the ability or resources to do that. Mavrah seems to be the primary obstacle to any "memory wipe" theories, but it is possible that he's an exception, like others here have suggested.


'm still wondering how many Kestora operate the place. I'd think it'd be more than three. There could've been Kestora elsewhere on the Red Star. But what's even more interesting is how the Kestora, who are bio-mechanical, don't mind murdering other bio-mechanical beings. Is it possible the Great Beings did not originally intend for the Kestora to gain sentience and emotions just like they didn't intend for the MU inhabitants. It's possible.

Well it's not an airtight theory. That did occur to me, about Teridax and the OOMN noticing that no one was coming back. I do think Mavrah is an exception... likely an escaped victim of the Kestora...

I'm pretty sure there are many more than three...

@Bonesii

Thank you. you sort of picked at the weak parts of my theory.

Really though, what you say makes good sense. It's so hard to get any definite ideas at this point... that's how speculation goes...

Different forms may or may not be likely, but I think we should count them as possible...

As to why they had to die when all they needed was a little wiped memory? Not sure, that's one big whole in my idea that I didn't think of before.

Edited by Tehurye, Sep 26 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Toa Of Virtues]

This theory sounds similar to some being discussed earlier, but this one is a little different. What if all the people who died, actually did die. And their new forms have a new mind and spirit. Think about it, the red star may be a huge database that stores all the personalities/destinies/duties of everyone made in the MU. If someone dies, the red star takes their essence and downloades the personality back into it. Therefore, they would have no memories of ever being in the MU. This would make everyone who died get almost brand new personalities, since much of your personality is a result of your history. They would still have the same sence of duty, be made out of the same materials of their former self, and share the same destiny, but no experience.

Personally, this would un-cheepen the deaths of many people who died in the MU, since their reincarnations wouldn't truely be their former self. Really, their origional spirit would have died, and copies of them are being made. Mavrah gave no sign of memory, yet, so I think it could work. Some simple information such as recognizing species, language, their name, etc could probably come with the new copied spirit.

Also, how would memory be transported to the Red Star? If someone's body is ruined bad enough, they would not be able to extract information from the body. Becides, it would be a pain to try to fish out the memories if they could, and much easier to just store their personality on a database.

On a seperate note... I don't think all that reincarnated in the red star are still alive, remember this?
“Maybe a dissection would tell us why they can’t go back. Of course, we tried that before, and all we wound up with was a mess … a lot of messes, actually …"

We can infer from this that the many people that came back, died as a result of these "dissections". So, maybe there is very few MU-ians still alive in the red star. Who knows? The characters we thought would be brought back like this might be really 100% dead.

[Refy L.S.]

Just about Teridax and Mata Nui being able to be revived through the system, it's probably most likely that only spirits of people inside the MU being sent to the Red Star. I think it's unlikely that the GB would have included a way for Mata Nui's spirit to be sent there, as that probably wasn't anticipated. The same would apply for Teridax when he died, as he was 'piloting' the robot rather than inhabiting it.
Also, do we know if only sentinent beings are sent there, or rahi too?

[Kraahlix]

See the S&T Contest history post in the One-Stop pinned topic.

Yes, Greg approved them for canon the same way he did the other S&T contest-winning stories (which are referenced on BS01). For whatever reason BS01's fan-made canon list is still out of date on that. My guess is that whoever is in charge of that page may be confusing the S&T system for BS01's contest system which wisely added a final-approval reading step by Greg, but he never demanded that step be required for all fan-created canon, and we carefully ensure all our entries fit pre-existing canon, etc. I should probably contact them about it but I've been too lazy / busy.

I've tried addressing that, you'll have to talk to Dorek.

[bonesiii]

This theory sounds similar to some being discussed earlier, but this one is a little different. What if all the people who died, actually did die. And their new forms have a new mind and spirit. Think about it, the red star may be a huge database that stores all the personalities/destinies/duties of everyone made in the MU. If someone dies, the red star takes their essence and downloades the personality back into it. Therefore, they would have no memories of ever being in the MU. This would make everyone who died get almost brand new personalities, since much of your personality is a result of your history.

At this point we don't know it isn't possible, however the evidence seems to be against it. Greg apparently tied the Red Star mystery to Jaller's revival, remember? We don't know how it's connected, since the teleporter was broken, but since Jaller retained all his memories. Also Matoro's revival kept his memories. (And if Takanuva was revived canonically, same.)

It's true Mavrah didn't give any hint of his memories besides his name, but then we didn't see enough of him to get evidence either way.

But it's possible.

And if there is something similar to DNA, the basic "genetic" personality could be recreated without a database like that too.

Maybe worth mentioning that the Mask of Life was able to somehow collect Hydraxon's memories and put them into the transformed Dekar, though. If that is in any way tied to the Red Star (though without an actual revival) it could show it can store/access/transfer memories, not just basic personality, and even if not, it at least demonstrates that such a thing is possible. It's the Ignika, so it obviously has special abilities, but then many other powers can access the mind as well.

Also, Greg confirmed there is a spirit that for Matoranoids attaches to the mask and when they're revived, the memories and all that come from that. So there is something the RS reviver could possibly be accessing, at least for relatives of Matoran.

Just about Teridax and Mata Nui being able to be revived through the system, it's probably most likely that only spirits of people inside the MU being sent to the Red Star. I think it's unlikely that the GB would have included a way for Mata Nui's spirit to be sent there, as that probably wasn't anticipated.

Why not? Safeguards R Us thinks of just about everything.

You know, I've been thinking, maybe we have enough clues to form a theory about the connection between all the previously seen revivals and the RS, even though the teleporter's broken. I hadn't been thinking much about Mata Nui's revival which is probably how I missed this (and yet another clue the RS thing was probably planned by 2006ish BTW). But in both his case and in Jaller's it's confirmed that a lot of life energy was spent to revive them. In Mata Nui's case, Matoro's life energy, and his Toa Energy, Elemental Energy, body, and spirit.

In both their cases, something channeled that system. Takutanuva with a mask and the Ignika in Karda Nui. With Matoro it was a room with who knows what behind it, and his dust (maybe the red lightstones). If in Matoro's case, life energy from the Ignika was tapped into, all three cases would match. So it may be that revival takes life energy to set up a remote connection to the RS, overriding the broken teleporter.

As to why, not sure if I should theorize that far out, but essentially more safeguardism.

Also, do we know if only sentinent beings are sent there, or rahi too?

We don't know.

I've tried addressing that, you'll have to talk to Dorek.

Alright. Will try to soon...

[XyzTheDay!]

Hey guys, this may seem a bit random, but I found a handful of Greg quotes in the forum archives that, if nothing else, may at least make for some fun speculation.

5)This must be the upteenth time I'm asking you this, and I'm sorry about it, but when are we going to see TSO again (or know what happened to him)?

5) Basically, when I find the right time and place to work him in. It is most likely going to be someplace in Powers That Be.

1. Does the GB necessarily have evil intentions?

1) Who defines evil? All we know is that whatever he is planning to do, Orde objects to it and wants it stopped. But to the GB, it might not be "evil" at all.

1) Why you didn't consider (or see) TSO as a evil character?

1) I do consider him to be one, which is why he isn't the Great Being.

Just some food for thought.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 28 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Cratak]

Hey guys, this may seem a bit random, but I found a handful of Greg quotes in the forum archives that, if nothing else, may at least make for some fun speculation.

5)This must be the upteenth time I'm asking you this, and I'm sorry about it, but when are we going to see TSO again (or know what happened to him)?

5) Basically, when I find the right time and place to work him in. It is most likely going to be someplace in Powers That Be.

1. Does the GB necessarily have evil intentions?

1) Who defines evil? All we know is that whatever he is planning to do, Orde objects to it and wants it stopped. But to the GB, it might not be "evil" at all.

1) Why you didn't consider (or see) TSO as a evil character?

1) I do consider him to be one, which is why he isn't the Great Being.

Just some food for thought.

I wonder how many more quotes are there that lead up to this moment...

[Nujanii: Kanohi Master]

Possibly related thought:

When Jaller dies in MoL, he might not have completed his destiny. So, perhaps destiny forced the Red Star to "work" and so get Jaller back. And since Spherus Manga has been destroyed, we don't know if destiny is still in effect. Perhaps beings no longer must accomplish their destiny and therefore the red star is no longer necessary?

On a related note, the Kestora might have attained personalities through the same "glitch" as the other characters. In this case, they might have made different decisions concerning their charges than they otherwise would....

And I also am holding out hope for the return of some of our favorite characters. Lhikan is well and truly dead I say, and Matoro also. However, I would like to see Nikila return. If Lesovikk sees that he never truly failed, we might be in for some good stuff in our coming serials.


Assuming they do come.

[bonesiii]

When Jaller dies in MoL, he might not have completed his destiny. So, perhaps destiny forced the Red Star to "work" and so get Jaller back. And since Spherus Manga has been destroyed, we don't know if destiny is still in effect.

I presume you meant the giant robot is destroyed.

But yeah, Jaller was destined to be a Toa Inika/Mahri, so it makes sense.

[Nujanii: Kanohi Master]

When Jaller dies in MoL, he might not have completed his destiny. So, perhaps destiny forced the Red Star to "work" and so get Jaller back. And since Spherus Manga has been destroyed, we don't know if destiny is still in effect.

I presume you meant the giant robot is destroyed.

But yeah, Jaller was destined to be a Toa Inika/Mahri, so it makes sense.

Wait... you mean that bit about the death star didn't actually ha-- oh, wait a minute...

In all seriousness, I meant something more like "...since the MU has been destroyed..."

What I still want to know, though, is about the last two virtues and how they relate to the Red Star (I would abbreviate it to "RS," but that would get hopelessly confusing.) So, obviously if a matoran is killed, he needs to be recycled to fulfill his duty. But what about Toa? Are Toa so important that they need to be revived? Since these Great Beings made the system with little-to-no respect for the lives of their creations, why would they revive dead Toa unless the specific Toa is commissioned to fulfill a goal through destiny? And is destiny so rigid that the MU would resurrect a dead Toa instead of just making a new one?

Say for a moment that Jaller was revived by the red star and that destiny no longer exists (since the Matoran Universe [Not SM] has been more or less destroyed). What was Jaller's destiny that required bringing back to life. He made a cool set as a Toa Mahri (making cool sets could be a part of destiny!), but honestly he didn't do too much else. He was an escort for Matoro, though. That could reasonably have been his destiny. If so, I think we can assume that destiny is pretty rigid.

Thoughts? Modifications? Grammar and speling corrections?

[bonesiii]

Well, we don't know how strategic the destiny systems are. Just becoming a Toa has been confirmed to be a destiny. It might not care if they have a second destiny after that.

But he was the leader, and one who made wise choices, often much better than Tahu or Vakama. One of the books even makes direct mention of that. All six Toa Inika/Mahri were essential. Only Matoro played the Big Role, but without all five of the others he would never have been able to.

[toa kopaka4372]

Well, it seems discussion has slowed down here a bit.

In any case, I went to the BZP Forum archives and looked through the OGQ topic, and I found some interesting stuff.

From Toa Nidhiki05:

1a. So Tren Krom is dead, correct?
1b. Was he the one who sent the image of the Red Star to Kopaka?

1A-1B) Yes and yes

If we take this as official confirmation that Tren Krom is officially, permanently dead, then it could indirectly confirm the ttheory that MU inhabitants killed outside the MU don't get revived.


From Lewa Krom:

Seeing as the "What was planned from the beginning" topic you posted back in December was closed, I was wondering if you could answer these questions here.

1. Was the secret of the Red Star established in the beginning or later on
2. Was the nature/secrets of the Great Beings established in the beginning or later on?
3. Was the bolts of lightning emitted from the Red Star that struck the Toa Inika's canisters a fluke by the Red Star?
4. Are the beings within the Red Star biomechanical or are they closer to the people of Bara Magna?
5. Is Sahmad's Tale still going to be a short serial like you had originally suggested or is it going to be 9-10 chapters like most others?
6. I know you don't plan ahead but any chance Varian might be appearing sometime soon/ever? (Don't want an approved name to go to waste just being used in one short story)
7. Is Tarduk still trying to get to the Red Star?

Thanks for your time.

1) Which secret?
2) Pretty much early on
3) I wouldn't call it a fluke, no
4) You'll find out when you meet them
5) Don't know yet
6) I have no plans for the stasis Toa, no. If I had, I wouldn't have okayed the story contest being held, most likely.
7) I don't recall Tarduk trying to get to the red star, unless you are talking about the red star on the map?

I bolded the questions I found interesting. Question 3's answer intrigues me; it pretty much implies that there is more to the lightning that transformed the Toa Inika that it seems at first.

Question 6's answer is also very interesting. GregF okayed the Memoirs of the Dead competition in 2009, when he likely knew of the Red Star's function; his answer here could imply that GregF had no problems with approving it because he wasn't planning on bringing any of the current dead characters back. The circumstances the the S&T contest could be different, but it's still something to think about.


Another one from Lewa Krom:

2. Will it only be Kopaka and Pohatu traveling to the Red Star? (Or do we have to wait and see? )

2) I don't plan to send anyone else at this time

If no one else was going to the Red Star, this could be more evidence for the theory that those killed outside the MU don't get sent to the Red Star.


From The iBrow Classic:



QUOTE

QUOTE
Hello Greg, I hope this doesn't bother you.

1. I was reading the red star topic, and I saw that you've told us Kopaka and Pohatu will be going to the Red Star. Another member posted a theory that if someone from the matoran universe dies, they go there. If this was true, would someone like Lhikan (who died as a turaga) appear there as a turaga because he was one when he died, a toa because he was most powerful then, or whenever he was happiest (such as matoran or one of the others)?

Thanks!
-iBrow

So this person is speculating that the red star is sort of the BIONICLE "heaven?"

Yes, they are.

We don't deal with the concept of the afterlife in BIONICLE, it is a religious topic and would offend people.

..........


From Toa of Italy:


QUOTE

QUOTE

QUOTE
Mr. Farshtey,

after reading the new chapter of The Powers that Be, I felt I had some questions to ask:

1)When Kopaka says the cyclone he and Pohatu meet "is just a cyclone", does he mean it's a natural phenomenon or someone or something else caused it?

2)How far did Tahu and Gali search for a New Atero site? Did they go as far as Bota Magna?

3)Did Tren Krom get out of the MU on his own (its destruction having freed him) or did something else get him out?

4)In the serial, it says (It was certainly a crime a Toa of Air had the power to carry out). But I would see Tren Krom as vastly more powerful than a Toa of Air (I mean, in FoF he displays the power to easily destroy a being by killing Carapar). How could Kopaka and Pohatu even consider Lesovikk being responsable?

5)How much time has passed between Teridax's death and Chapter 1 of The Powers That Be? Does the latter occur before or after TYQ's first chapter?

6)Will the Toa Mahri's fate be eventually revealed (and possibly their rescue)? What about TSO's fate?

7)Could Marendar be responsable for the murders of Karzahni and Tren Krom, or should we discount that possibility?

8)I heard we'll learn much more about the Red Star. Will it also be revealed why and how the Toa Inika were created?

9)Is the Toa Team serial TYQ, or has it not yet started? If so, will it start after Sahmad's Tale ends?

10)Do you decide when to make a contest, or do BZP, BS01 and KJ staffs suggest you a number of contests and you just approve or refuse them? In both cases, would a storyline contest regarding GN10 events be possible (I'm not suggesting you do it, just asking if you could do it)?

Thank you,

Toa of Italy

1) Natural phenomenon
3) Someone else got him out
4) Simple. If a Toa of Air created enough air pressure inside another being, it could cause an explosion. TK is very powerful, but also completely organic, so easy to blow up.
5) After TYQ's first chapter
6) Yes and yes
7) No, it's not Marendar. Marendar is aimed at Toa, and neither one of them was a Toa
8) Depends, we'll see
9) Toa team serial is TYQ, yes


3)Will we learn who it was and why he/she has done it?
4)But wouldn't Tren Krom stop him before that could happen?
10)And would you accept a contest about GN10 story if they were to propose it to you?

3) Yes
4) Might, if he knew it was coming and could act in time. But obviously whoever killed him acted before TK could. Maybe it was someone TK would think trustworthy?

From me () :


QUOTE

QUOTE
Hello, GregF! I hope you're having a good time. I would just like to tell you that the new chapter of TPTB was great (and was uploaded quite quickly and I can't wait for Chapter 4. Meanwhile, I have a few questions.

1. The Black and Purple entities in the Star.... are they the same as the ones in Journey of Takanuva or just connected?
1b. Will we ever get an official title for the species?

2. Does Gaardus have any other powers beside teleportation?

3. Is the mask that Gaardus wears actually a Hau or a powerless one shaped like a Hau? (This question is based on the actual combiner)

4. Do you know how many chapters that TPTB will have?

5. Do you know approximately how many years ago Gaardus was mutated by the Nynrah Ghosts?

6.
QUOTE
The third interrupted, pointing at Gaardus. “That one has been here before. He was the last. He must know why no one can go now.”

From this quote can we assume that at one point many beings went to the Red Star? Also, when the being said "no one can go now", is he referring to the MU?

Thank you very much!

1) Yes.
1b) Possibly
2) Flight, enhanced senses, and he's pretty strong
3) It is an actual Hau, yes
4) Oh, I would say at least 7 or 8. I don't want to pad it, but I also don't want to rush it.
5) Quite a long time ago, actually. Pre-Barraki rebellion
6) He is referring to going from the red star to the MU, yes.


BS01 seemed to have used this answer to estimate it to be around 80,000 years, byt GregF didn't specify. Gaardus could have gone to the Red Star any time during the MU's first 20,000 years and the subsequent malfunction could have occurred them as well.


Lewa Krom again:

QUOTE

QUOTE
I LOVED Chapter 3!!!


2. And what of Lesovikk? Do you think he'll be popping up again sometime in this serial?


Thanks.



2) Most likely, yes


Now that really makes me interested as to what role Lesovikk was to play in the serial.


From Blaze-Wind Master:

QUOTE

QUOTE
Hey GregF, I got a couple of questions for you today.


3) Does the OOMN know of Gaardus?
b)The BOM (back when they were still active)?
c)Artakha?


Thanks in advance.


2) Yes
3) Yes
3b) Yes
3c) I would say it's likely


Hm......




From Makuta Dullahan:

QUOTE
Hi Greg,
Hope you're doing well.

1. Was Tren Krom anchored to anything when he was killed (like he was to his island), or was he in some other, mobile form?
2. Was the surprise in his scream from being ambushed, or not suspecting the attack. eg someone jumping out of the bushes versus someone you're talking to suddenly punching you.
2a. If it was an ambush, would he have survived a face-to-face battle?
3. Were Karzahni and Tren Krom killed by the same thing?
4. Was Tren Krom's death an accident, or intentional?
5. How did Tren Krom end up in a forest so far from the crashed MU?

Thanks for your time...


1) He was not anchored to anything
2) I think just from the fact someone was actually able to defeat him
3) Yes
4) Intentional. He was murdered

5) Same way he got off his island

From Anti Nui:

QUOTE

QUOTE
1) Just to be 100% sure, Annona and the Red Star have no connection, correct?

Thanks

1) I can't answer that



.............


From Toa of Italy again:

QUOTE
Hello, Mr. Farshtey,

5)This must be the upteenth time I'm asking you this, and I'm sorry about it, but when are we going to see TSO again (or know what happened to him)?



5) Basically, when I find the right time and place to work him in. It is most likely going to be someplace in Powers That Be.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

From Anti Nui:

QUOTE

QUOTE
1) Just to be 100% sure, Annona and the Red Star have no connection, correct?

Thanks

1) I can't answer that



.............

I thought about pointing something out about Annona and the red star, but it looks like you beat me to it.
I think Greg was dropping us a hint with Annona in Sahmad's Tale, since
A. When Sahmad was waking up an going to the light, he said it looked like a red star.
B. Annona knew that someone in the ingredients of the Golden Skinned Being was "One thought dead."
So, could Annona have been hiding from the GBs in the red star and teleported itself back to Bara Magna when Sahmad started looking? How else would he know who dead MU beings are?

There's a bone everyone! Chew on it!

[fishers64]

Some notes :

Theory: In the Red Star during 2006 story, there must have been at least one revived Toa alive in the Red Star to place the Toa energy that built the Toa Inika.

At least one Toa got revived intact.

OR, if we throw out several previous theories (as often must be done, heh), perhaps the Wish Gate IS the RS's Sendback teleporter, and at some point it was taken away from it and dropped on Bara Magna. That would fit my mental activation theory. But I dunno, not sure that works.

But how would the teleporter be stolen if the robot was away for 100,000 years and put back there? I'll admit it is possible that it was taken out before the robot left, but who would do that? Who would want to be sure that dead MU inhabitants stayed dead?

Also, it occured to me that the Red Star's reviving mechanism may work intact, but the Send Back mechanism, upon failure, might warp or malform the being sent through. The Kestora might thus infer that the problem with the sending back is the being that they are trying to send back, not the machine, and then try to dissect the being they tried to send through. Other beings, upon seeing this, try to fight against the Kestora to avoid being warped. Kind of reminds of His Dark Materials and the Oblation Board.

@Toa Kopaka4372

I know that the Karzahni and the Morbuzahk aren't up there because they are technically Makuta creations. And rahi aren't on the red star.

How do you know that there aren't Rahi up there? Or Makuta creations? Although there is some evidence...due to the way that the Karzahni plant was revived the first time...that reviving him using the Red Star is unlikely.

From Chapters 4 of the Powers That Be:

"The one you call Tren Krom appeared in the forest, from nowhere," Gaardus began, speaking slowly and carefully. "He was … confused. He could move, but not very far or very fast. I was going to hunt, but his mind touched mine, and it hurt. Then … there was someone else, and the winds came, and I saw the star, and …"

toa kopaka4372's GregF quote here, in combination with the above, would seem to suggest that Tren Krom was teleported to the forest right before his murder:

5. How did Tren Krom end up in a forest so far from the crashed MU?

5) Same way he got off his island.

***

And would the Golden Skakdi possibly contain a revived being from the Red Star? I doubt it, since the beings that go to the Red Star are actually dead, but I guess it's worth an ask.

Edited by fishers64, Oct 03 2012 - 02:11 AM.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

@Toa Kopaka4372

I know that the Karzahni and the Morbuzahk aren't up there because they are technically Makuta creations. And rahi aren't on the red star.

How do you know that there aren't Rahi up there? Or Makuta creations? Although there is some evidence...due to the way that the Karzahni plant was revived the first time...that reviving him using the Red Star is unlikely.

When I said "know" I meant I was about 99.99% sure. And the reason for this is that the GB's didn't create the rahi or the morbuzahk/karzahni. They wouldn't have needed to be revived since the makuta could make more when they died. Some shouldn't have been created in the first place.

Edited by TNT-DJ Vezon, Oct 02 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

About incinerated and disintegrated beings and Makuta not getting revived - isn't their spirit a disembodied thing, something their bodies (and essences in the case of the Makuta) just contain? Oh, and this quote:

5. How did Tren Krom end up in a forest so far from the crashed MU?

5) Same way he got off his island.

to me means he was teleported off his island, likely directly to where he died (Gaardus said he appeared out of nowhere and looked confused) and maybe Velika had a part in it.

Edited by The Iron Toa, Oct 02 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[toa kopaka4372]

About incinerated and disintegrated beings and Makuta not getting revived - isn't their spirit a disembodied thing, something their bodies (and essences in the case of the Makuta) just contain?

In the Makuta's case, yes, definitely, so if it were incinerated, as has happened in the story many times, they should be prevented from revival.

In the case of normal beings, we don't exactly know. It could be that their spirits are connected to their bodies in some way; we know that their spirits serve as both their life force and their consciousness-it seems their spirit would need to be connected to their bodies for everything to work out.

Of course, we don't know how physical a spirit is-can it be held in your hand, or is it just energy like Antidermis?

Also, it's possible the Red Star only teleports bodies; if a body was destroyed, and the spirit survived, maybe it wouldn't be teleported at all. It's sort of unlikely, but anything could be possible.

I really hope we get some kind of clarification soon.

[The Iron Toa]

Well I thought it doesn't teleport bodies because corpses don't disappear from the Matoran Universe. If the spirit of the Makuta is in their Antidermis, not the Antidermis itself, they could be revived as well as everyone else. (We know Teridax isn't coming back though.) I'm pretty sure we know the spirits of other beings are intangible and invisible. But maybe they can be disrupted by energy, for example the Energy Storms of Karda Nui...

[fishers64]

When I said "know" I meant I was about 99.99% sure. And the reason for this is that the GB's didn't create the rahi or the morbuzahk/karzahni. They wouldn't have needed to be revived since the makuta could make more when they died. Some shouldn't have been created in the first place.

But the Turaga could make more Matoran when they died. The purpose of the revival seems to me not to be to perserve the amount of beings needed for operations, but rather to preserve the knowledge and expriences that those beings had. So if the experiences and knowledge of a Rahi, while being minimal, where vital to the Matoran Universe's operation, I imagine that they would be brought back.

And Mata Nui assigned the Makuta to create Rahi, apparently to serve some vital purpose. What it is we don't know. If that purpose is vital, then I imagine that the revival system would cover them as well. Depends on if the GBs agreed with Mata Nui there.

About incinerated and disintegrated beings and Makuta not getting revived - isn't their spirit a disembodied thing, something their bodies (and essences in the case of the Makuta) just contain? Oh, and this quote:

5. How did Tren Krom end up in a forest so far from the crashed MU?

5) Same way he got off his island.

to me means he was teleported off his island, likely directly to where he died (Gaardus said he appeared out of nowhere and looked confused) and maybe Velika had a part in it.

Why would Velika transport TK out into the woods just to kill him? You'd think it would be easier to off him in his island - or Velika could have just let the forces of dying universe kill him - no need for a murder.

I want to say that something else teleported TK out of the universe against Velika's will...I just don't think he wants to call attention to himself if he doesn't have to. Unless he needs the attention of Pohatu and Kopaka to carry out his plan...he said he needed the Toa Mata, but not where Kopaka and Pohatu are...

Interesting.

[bonesiii]

And Mata Nui assigned the Makuta to create Rahi, apparently to serve some vital purpose. What it is we don't know. If that purpose is vital, then I imagine that the revival system would cover them as well.

I thought we do know that in general they were to discourage Matoran from wandering into areas they weren't supposed to visit.

Not disagreeing that it could involve them too, we really have no evidence to give any kind of a percent on it. The only direct evidence for Rahi revival -- the brief description of the way beings move on the RS IMO is really more likely evidence that some beings aren't quite right in form; malformed, injured, whatnot, given Kopaka's reaction. I think if he'd seen Rahi among that group instead of something mutilated or whatever he wouldn't have had such a reaction.

Of course, who knows how big the RS is or how many rooms and sections there are -- that may be a tiny fraction of the beings on it.

Why would Velika transport TK out into the woods just to kill him?

I had already concluded this, FTR, in a previous post here. Greg's latest reveal of Velika's motives made it clear he was trying to get rid of the wildcards, which seems to be strong support for the idea that any being inside the MU could be revived, but the same beings outside cannot be. Therefore, to permanently kill him, Velika would need to first teleport him outside.

IMO it's likely TK knew about the RS and was intentionally staying inside the MU as insurance, so if he did somehow get killed he would be revived. Hence why his final thought would be of the Red Star, even though Greg has apparently confirmed he isn't revived there. Because he's thinking "oh no my insurance got thwarted!"

Also, I theorized that it isn't a coincidence that he teleported him near Gaardus. Possibly also not a coincidence he teleported him near Gaardus at the same time K&P were moving near. Could be any number of explanations for that; if he wanted Gaardus to take K&P up there that would be the obvious way to set that up. Killing two birds with one stone -- getting rid of that wildcard, and setting something else in motion with the Toa being on the RS.

Of course, there's evidence against the K&P part; it might be coincidence that they came near at that time (Velika didn't seem to know where they went). I just think it's too much of a stretch that having all three of them there at that moment is a coincidence.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 03 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[Alyska]

What if it was the teleporting itself that killed him? Like, if he was teleported there inside out, or with some internal organs in the wrong places, and that kind of restructuring caused an explosion?

[fishers64]

And Mata Nui assigned the Makuta to create Rahi, apparently to serve some vital purpose. What it is we don't know. If that purpose is vital, then I imagine that the revival system would cover them as well.

I thought we do know that in general they were to discourage Matoran from wandering into areas they weren't supposed to visit.

Not disagreeing that it could involve them too, we really have no evidence to give any kind of a percent on it. The only direct evidence for Rahi revival -- the brief description of the way beings move on the RS IMO is really more likely evidence that some beings aren't quite right in form; malformed, injured, whatnot, given Kopaka's reaction. I think if he'd seen Rahi among that group instead of something mutilated or whatever he wouldn't have had such a reaction.

Of course, who knows how big the RS is or how many rooms and sections there are -- that may be a tiny fraction of the beings on it.

Pretty much, but there was a big debate over that in ages past, and I would rather not get into it again.

I have the serial chapter up in front of me, and I'm not exactly sure that mutilated beings would provoke such a reaction (let's get out of here!) out of him. I'm not an expert on Kopaka's psychology, but just working off the sounds (rodents, bodies being dragged around) there is a war going on, or at least some sort of conflict/battle. If there were just grotesquely featured beings sitting around, there wouldn't be any mention of things not being safe by Marvah either. They are fighting each other. Particularly gross sights could be provided by beasts participating in the fight...particularly those wondrous creatures that Mavrah kept as pets.

Which, I might add, he was badly protective of, which means they probably aren't part of the fight. If they weren't there I would think he would be somewhat angry, but he seems matter-of-fact/resigned instead, indicating that maybe he stashed them in a safe place somewhere away from the war.

Said creatures might be why Marvah's not part of the scuffle...but now I'm speculating.

Why would Velika transport TK out into the woods just to kill him?

I had already concluded this, FTR, in a previous post here. Greg's latest reveal of Velika's motives made it clear he was trying to get rid of the wildcards, which seems to be strong support for the idea that any being inside the MU could be revived, but the same beings outside cannot be. Therefore, to permanently kill him, Velika would need to first teleport him outside.

IMO it's likely TK knew about the RS and was intentionally staying inside the MU as insurance, so if he did somehow get killed he would be revived. Hence why his final thought would be of the Red Star, even though Greg has apparently confirmed he isn't revived there. Because he's thinking "oh no my insurance got thwarted!"

Also, I theorized that it isn't a coincidence that he teleported him near Gaardus. Possibly also not a coincidence he teleported him near Gaardus at the same time K&P were moving near. Could be any number of explanations for that; if he wanted Gaardus to take K& P up there that would be the obvious way to set that up. Killing two birds with one stone -- getting rid of that wildcard, and setting something else in motion with the Toa being on the RS.

Of course, there's evidence against the K&P part; it might be coincidence that they came near at that time (Velika didn't seem to know where they went). I just think it's too much of a stretch that having all three of them there at that moment is a coincidence.

*facepalm*

Yes, I agree with you about it not exactly being a coincidence. If Velika transported TK out of the Matoran Universe, he didn't have to teleport him there - could have teleported him to somewhere else if he didn't want Gaardus or Kopaka & Pohatu to see.

What if it was the teleporting itself that killed him? Like, if he was teleported there inside out, or with some internal organs in the wrong places, and that kind of restructuring caused an explosion?

If Gaardus' witness is any credibility, Tren Krom had enough time to realize that he couldn't move very well in his gelatinous form before being destroyed, and also time to feel shocked and send a telepathic message, which he probably wouldn't have time to do if the teleportation itself killed him.

Edited by fishers64, Oct 03 2012 - 02:49 AM.

[Chro]

Greg has hinted that Jaller's revival was related to the Red Star, which, along with Mavrah's presence, implies that the dead beings are revived to be exactly the same as they were before. The reason Jaller didn't remember being resurrected in the Red Star (actually, we don't really know what Jaller remembers about dying, if anything), is because he was sent to the Red Star without a mask- he would have been unconscious until he was brought back by Takutanuva.

Someone has likely already suggested this, but I haven't read the entire thread, so bear with me.
Like you said, Alyska, when Jaller was dead, his mask remained on Mata Nui with everyone else. And when he was resurrected, so to speak, he returned in the same location as his mask. Similarly, Matoro was vaporized on the Stairs, but reappeared with his team. So I'm thinking it's one of these things:

A ) The teleportation would lock on to a specific item, being, or something else that somehow related to the person who had just died, e.g. Matoro to his friends, and Jaller to his friends and mask. (I'm not really sure how specific this process would be, though... just a vague idea.)

B ) The Kestora can be extremely precise with their teleportation. Not sure how exactly, but they would be able to send beings back to somewhere very close where they were when they died.

Personally I like A better, though perhaps B is more likely...
These theories are likely incorrect for various reasons or have been disproven already, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[toa kopaka4372]

Well I thought it doesn't teleport bodies because corpses don't disappear from the Matoran Universe. If the spirit of the Makuta is in their Antidermis, not the Antidermis itself, they could be revived as well as everyone else. (We know Teridax isn't coming back though.) I'm pretty sure we know the spirits of other beings are intangible and invisible. But maybe they can be disrupted by energy, for example the Energy Storms of Karda Nui...

Oh yeah, corpses don't disappear, I'm forgetting a lot of basic facts...

I'm pretty sure that Antidermis is the spirit of a Makuta. In the story Antidermis was referred to as the essence of Makuta, and according to what we know so far about the Red Star the essence needs to be available so the being can be revived. Since the essence of most of the Karda Nui Makuta was totally obliterated, I'd say they're likely gone for good.

[Chro]

Just another thought- could an Iden wearer's spirit possibly exit the Star and possibly return to the MU, or did "Safeguards R Us" somehow prevent that?

[Iron Voltex]

Glad to see the information the recent update confirmed.

-ibrow

[Baron Von Nebula]

Spoiler

OK, so the following MU characters died w/out their bodies being (completely) destroyed:
Botar, Guardian (maybe, he fell into a chasm), original Hydraxon, Ihu, Jovan, Karzahni, Kodan, Lhikan, Naho, Nikila, Nocturn, Reysa, and Sidorak.

For characters who weren't stated to be totally destroyed, I assumed there was something of them left. I'm actually sad about this new fact, since it means that there is no hope for any Makuta coming back. I think that's what Greg meant about Teridax not needing to worry: since Makuta were antidermis, they had to be totally destroyed to die. None could come back and seek revenge on him.

[The Iron Toa]

Spoiler

So the bodies do disappear? And if there were no graveyards, then it must have been known that corpses disappeared. And yet nothing was ever said to make that seem like it was the case.

[toa kopaka4372]

Spoiler

YES! YEEESSSS!

*calms down*

Well, I'm really glad that theory was finally confirmed, clears some stuff up (I was big supporter of the theory, in case you haven't noticed yet )

Strange, though, I was sure corpses in the MU remained. Hm...

Also, I wonder to what extent the damage has to be? GregF said "utterly" destroyed, so I guess it had to be totally wiped out. Still, maybe it just has to be severe. Slso, I guess that would mean people who are absorbed into someone else (like Nidhiki was) are dead for good too, since they have no bodies anymore.

Anyways, the following could be considered permanently dead based on this information:
Antroz
Vamprah
Krika
Icarax
Bitil
Gorast
Chirox
Mutran
Spiriah
Makuta of Stelt
Kojol
Tridax
Matoro
Ancient
Carapar
Teridax
Nidhiki
Krekka

Since Karzahni's (plant) "corpse" didn't disappear, I guess plants are not revived. Ditto for Rahi, as we see bodies of dead Rahi all over the place throughout the story.

Does anyone know what happened to Jaller's original body a while after he died? If his corpse never disappeared and was buried, then that should confirm the theory that being's outside the MU do not get revived. Oh, wait, the deceased of the Battle of Bara Magna and Karzahni's (Being) body never vanished, right? In that case the theory would be confirmed.

Edited by toa kopaka4372, Oct 04 2012 - 09:27 PM.