450 replies to this topic

[XyzTheDay!]

Spoiler

Does anyone know what happened to Jaller's original body a while after he died? If his corpse never disappeared and was buried, then that should confirm the theory that being's outside the MU do not get revived. Oh, wait, the deceased of the Battle of Bara Magna and Karzahni's (Being) body never vanished, right? In that case the theory would be confirmed.

Spoiler

I don't think Jaller's body disappeared (at least, that's not what I remember, although this was several years ago and I don't have the greatest memory quality in the world), which makes me think that perhaps the "mask storing an imprint" thing is really just another GB failsafe meant to preserve the spirit of anybody that wanders outside of the MU (assuming that the Red Star does not work on people outside of the MU).

Anyway, I'm glad we've finally cleared up who does and doesn't go to the Red Star.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Oct 04 2012 - 10:20 PM.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Spoiler

Well, this is a new, interesting bit of storyline information. I like it because it means that Teridax and Matoro are not in the RS, as others have stated. (And just be clear, I did like their characters. I just think that if they came back, it would make their deaths in the storyline less significant.) I am a little saddened that the other Makuta aren't in the RS though.

This new information does leave me with one question. If the body of a deceased being is teleported to the RS after his death, wouldn't someone have seen one of those bodies vanish? I kind of find it hard to believe that no one over the course of 100,000 years in the MU wouldn't have noticed that there were no dead bodies in the MU. (Aside from dead Rahi, I suppose, since they apparently weren't teleported to the RS. The Maze of Shadow and Voyage of Fear books both had dead Rahi in them, no I guess that supports the theory that they didn't go to the RS after dying.) I guess its possible that someone could've seen a being's dead body 'vanish' and just thought that was suppose to happen when someone died. But again, that would be my guess.

Edited by Toa Smoke Monster, Oct 04 2012 - 11:32 PM.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

Good to get basic confirmation. I wonder how much is enough to work with, though? Obviously Matoro and the Makuta are clearcut instances. An intact brain, a clearcut. If the brain is too destroyed to still contain their consciousness, methinks, is where the line is drawn -- like a broken computer will generally still have all the data on its hard drive but it can't run. Only if the hard drive is destroyed is it beyond hope (nevermind backups for this analogy ).

I do vaguely remember Greg commenting something about a lack of graveyards years ago, though no idea what the quote was -- another good one for someone less lazy than me to try to hunt down.

I'm getting the sense that there might be some ritual where a dead being is actually expected to disappear. It may be such an accepted part of their culture they wouldn't see it as surprising at all. Like Kanohi powers or the like. Obviously the story couldn't have revealed such a thing until now or it would have been a dead giveaway. Sorry, pun intended.

In the case of Jaller, maybe his original body was put through a traditional ritual in which it disappeared as expected, and they keep the mask as a memento, and the masks just serve as anchors the RS teleporter would have originally sent the body back to. Takutanuva would use Makuta's teleportation power to overcome this difficulty, teleporting the repaired and revived but maskless Jaller back to the MU, under the mask.

[fishers64]

Spoiler

Well, that answers that gruesome topic from awhile back about what Matoran do with dead bodies. Of course, now that they are on SM, and if someone dies, they are now going to have to deal with those. That seems very disturbing, considering that they have never dealt in that before...urg.

Make me wonder about the Makuta's evolution into a gaseous state, like it was a ploy by someone to prevent Makuta from ending up in the Red Star.

Also makes me wonder what would happen if Krahka died. (While in the MU. )

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

To add about the MOL revival, since it seems it's confirmed that Takanuva was revived too (but Makuta being antidermis wasn't killed), that seems to confirm there's a teleportation device in the UDD symbol. I wonder if it's a one-off device Makuta built, knowing Takanuva might need to be revived to fulfill the whole "make you think you won" thing.

And that makes me wonder if my memory has deceived me and Makuta in uncontained antidermis form can use their powers... *checks* Hm...


As for Matoro in the Chamber of Death, it seems to me this provides strong evidence against that being this kind of revival, or possibly for it being an illusion. Because his whole body and even his mask were apparently completely disintegrated. Perhaps it was something like a stun combined with a temporary transformation into protodites like Zaktan or Sandman type thing.


Also, I wonder what this revelation says about the "resources"? Does this mean it's brain material that is the limited or difficult to grow resource?

Also makes me wonder what would happen if Krahka died. (While in the MU. )

Well, Greg confirmed she had a standard form, so I'd lean towards as long as the brain part of the standard form was intact she could be. Or any brain of the dead body intact, really.

I guess.

[Makuta_of_Oz]

Spoiler

So we may meet the first Toa Team yet! That might explain Lesovikk's role in the story.

[toa kopaka4372]

Spoiler

Good to get basic confirmation. I wonder how much is enough to work with, though? Obviously Matoro and the Makuta are clearcut instances. An intact brain, a clearcut. If the brain is too destroyed to still contain their consciousness, methinks, is where the line is drawn -- like a broken computer will generally still have all the data on its hard drive but it can't run. Only if the hard drive is destroyed is it beyond hope (nevermind backups for this analogy ).

If this were to be true, than the body would not have to be totally wiped out to prevent revival. Beings like Sidorak, Botar, and Guardian would not be revived then, since they were crushed, which seems like pretty irreversible damage to me.

In the case of Jaller, maybe his original body was put through a traditional ritual in which it disappeared as expected, and they keep the mask as a memento, and the masks just serve as anchors the RS teleporter would have originally sent the body back to. Takutanuva would use Makuta's teleportation power to overcome this difficulty, teleporting the repaired and revived but maskless Jaller back to the MU, under the mask.

This could be plausible, but only works if the Red Star does work outside the MU, and as far as we can see, bodies on SM have not disappeared, which would seem to imply otherwise.

However, I can think of an alternate explanation that could work around that. One similarity between Karzahni's and Tren Krom's deaths were how brutal they were; they were both shattered into pieces. Even Kopaka was disturbed by how badly the Karzahni's body was ruined:

Kopaka peered over the rim of the canyon. At the bottom, he could see the shattered remains of a figure.
“Dead?” asked Kopaka.
“Extremely,” said Pohatu. “Wait. It gets better.”
Pohatu whisked Kopaka down the steep slope to the bottom of the canyon. Even the Toa of Ice, who had seen his share of gruesome sights, was struck by the horror of the scene. It only took a moment’s glance to confirm that the corpse matched the description Toa Jaller once gave of Karzahni.

It's possible Velika was killing them in especially violent ways to ensure their bodies were too damaged to be teleported. Just throwing that out there.

Also makes me wonder what would happen if Krahka died. (While in the MU. )

I think Krahka would have died and not been revived anyways; no matter how intelligent she is, she's still a Rahi, and as far as we can tell, the bodies of dead Rahi always stay behind (see Voyage of Fear, Maze of Shadows, and Reign of Shadows for examples.)

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

This could be plausible, but only works if the Red Star does work outside the MU

True. Although, we do need to keep in mind that Mata Nui, Voya Nui, and Mahri Nui are often considered (by fans anyways) "spillout" zones of the MU. Since they're made of protodermis and come from inside it. Mata Nui itself is in the place of an intentional design feature. The RS might still work there. Or just outside the surface of the MU.

TK & Karzy were on the other hand very far from it when they were killed.

It's possible Velika was killing them in especially violent ways to ensure their bodies were too damaged to be teleported. Just throwing that out there.

Well that's interesting... But looking at TPTB, it sounds like the only killing blow on Karzahni was a knife in the back (or Toa Tool). Not a blow to the brain as I'd expect. True, maybe Velika knew enough about physics to know the fall would then handle it, but yeah. I suppose that this does put evidence back in the "It works on SM" corner. The beings in the fortress would probably be crushed too.

I guess we should just be cautious about the question of the limits on where they could die for the RS reviver to reach and hope Erebus will ask Greg.

[Toa of Italy]

Spoiler

This is all getting stranger. If corpses were teleported to the Red Star, then what about those we saw in the MU? I admit there weren't many, but I can think at least about the ones we saw in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet. Which makes you wonder how long bodies stay inside the MU before being teleported to the Star.

In addition, we saw an even "older" corpse, that of the alternate Tuyet placed in the Pit, who had been killed a thousand years before. Granted, she was from an alternate dimension, but if vanishing corpses in the MU is the norm, then you don't understand how neither Makuta nor Matoro were surprised at seeing her (neither knew she wasn't actually their dimension's Tuyet). And certainly corpses don't stay in the MU for 1000 years, because otherwise Mavrah wouldn't even be on the Star.

Finally, we have heard MU beings talk about corpses before. For example, I remember when, in Prisoners of the Pit, Defilak states that Matoro is probably dead, but that there may still be a corpse to recover.

[Toa Kopaka TJByrum]

So basically, when a person dies they go to the Red Star, get 'fixed' then sent back down to the MU?

Do the Kestora fix them?

[bonesiii]

So basically, when a person dies they go to the Red Star, get 'fixed' then sent back down to the MU?

Do the Kestora fix them?

There's some evidence they don't, as they seemed to assume Kopaka and Pohatu had been revived, even though they didn't remember doing so, but we don't know for sure. (As I pointed out, there's also evidence that they have memory problems.)

Spoiler

This is all getting stranger. If corpses were teleported to the Red Star, then what about those we saw in the MU? I admit there weren't many, but I can think at least about the ones we saw in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet. Which makes you wonder how long bodies stay inside the MU before being teleported to the Star.

This would be easy to fit with my earlier theory that there is an established ritual that they put the bodies through during which it is teleported. Perhaps they even have to bring them to Suva? Or it may simply be a standard time delay, and they are aware of it and used to it (that could work with or without a ritual that they plan to coincide with the time delay).

In addition, we saw an even "older" corpse, that of the alternate Tuyet placed in the Pit, who had been killed a thousand years before.

Was the body crushed?

[toa kopaka4372]

So basically, when a person dies they go to the Red Star, get 'fixed' then sent back down to the MU?

Do the Kestora fix them?

There's some evidence they don't, as they seemed to assume Kopaka and Pohatu had been revived, even though they didn't remember doing so, but we don't know for sure. (As I pointed out, there's also evidence that they have memory problems.)

Spoiler

This is all getting stranger. If corpses were teleported to the Red Star, then what about those we saw in the MU? I admit there weren't many, but I can think at least about the ones we saw in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet. Which makes you wonder how long bodies stay inside the MU before being teleported to the Star.

This would be easy to fit with my earlier theory that there is an established ritual that they put the bodies through during which it is teleported. Perhaps they even have to bring them to Suva? Or it may simply be a standard time delay, and they are aware of it and used to it (that could work with or without a ritual that they plan to coincide with the time delay).

In addition, we saw an even "older" corpse, that of the alternate Tuyet placed in the Pit, who had been killed a thousand years before.

Was the body crushed?

Spoiler

No, it wasn't crushed, but it was shattered. The fact that Decoy Tuyet's corpse remained even after she died inside the MU is very interesting. There are two explanations I could think of:
1) Since she's from an alt. dimension, the Red Star doesn't work on her
2) Her body was too ruined to be teleported. If this turns out to be true, then it seems that the body doesn't have to be totally obliterated, just become ruined to the point that it can't be teleported.

I think it's possible there's a short time lapse between death and a body's disappearance, which would explain the corpses that were found in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet. Of course, it's possible that the Ta-Matoran and Le-Matoran Tuyet killed had too much damage done to their bodies to be teleported, but the Ga-Matoran she drowned should definitely should have been teleported, since Mavrah died the same way.

Also, with this new information, I think we could guess more at what Kopaka saw; I think it's possible after a while the Kestora stopped repairing/restoring bodies, so they revived the dead beings in the state their bodies were in. Kopaka might have ended up seeing people with messed up bodies walking around. Of course, this might contradict the idea that the body doesn't have to be totally destroyed to be not be revived; whatever Kopaka saw muts've been extremely disturbing, so it could have been mutilated people coming towards them, which would be extremely creepy.

Edited by toa kopaka4372, Oct 05 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[Chro]

In addition to toa kopaka4372's two theories above, I have a third idea...

Spoiler

In addition, we saw an even "older" corpse, that of the alternate Tuyet placed in the Pit, who had been killed a thousand years before. Granted, she was from an alternate dimension, but if vanishing corpses in the MU is the norm, then you don't understand how neither Makuta nor Matoro were surprised at seeing her (neither knew she wasn't actually their dimension's Tuyet). And certainly corpses don't stay in the MU for 1000 years, because otherwise Mavrah wouldn't even be on the Star.
Finally, we have heard MU beings talk about corpses before. For example, I remember when, in Prisoners of the Pit, Defilak states that Matoro is probably dead, but that there may still be a corpse to recover.

I'd think that the Red Star would somehow know, in a sense, that there was already a Tuyet in the universe, and thus not fix the Alt.U. version of Tuyet. I am not familiar with the specifics of Tuyet's story and the dates associated with such, so if the main universe Tuyet was already in a pocket dimension, or dead (or something else) by that point, then my third reason theory is disproven.

[Toa Kopaka TJByrum]

Bionicle just keps getting more confusing, it not interesting.

It has a lot of history and depth in it. I haven't seen this much depth since The Elder Scrolls.

[Alyska]

Spoiler

Alt. Tuyet's body was in pieces- Matoro had to use the mask to reassemble it. But the Matoran deaths in Metru Nui do seem like a bit of a plothole.

If Gaardus' witness is any credibility, Tren Krom had enough time to realize that he couldn't move very well in his gelatinous form before being destroyed, and also time to feel shocked and send a telepathic message, which he probably wouldn't have time to do if the teleportation itself killed him.

What if it was the teleporting itself that killed him? Like, if he was teleported there inside out, or with some internal organs in the wrong places, and that kind of restructuring caused an explosion?

Okay, how about this- we don't know what kind of tech/powers Velika has access to, but he could achieve that effect with Tren Krom and Karzahni using only teleportation technology. In Karzahni's case, he was teleported to a spot in mid air high enough for the fall to shatter his body, and in Tren Krom's case, there could have been some sort of explosive that he was teleported onto. If it was a time bomb, there'd be time for Velika to run away, time for Tren Krom to look at his surroundings and wonder what was happening before getting blown into sushi.

[Biff]

whatever Kopaka saw muts've been extremely disturbing, so it could have been mutilated people coming towards them, which would be extremely creepy.

...Which would make the noise of dragging bodies make sense.

Edited by Biff, Oct 05 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Chro]

If it was a time bomb, there'd be time for Velika to run away, time for Tren Krom to look at his surroundings and wonder what was happening before getting blown into sushi.

Krom sushi, eh? Somehow seems exactly as appetizing as one would expect.

[bonesiii]

there'd be time for Velika to run away

Since it appears he must have some kind of teleporter, there's no need for him to physically run.

Spoiler

I think it's possible there's a short time lapse between death and a body's disappearance, which would explain the corpses that were found in The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet. Of course, it's possible that the Ta-Matoran and Le-Matoran Tuyet killed had too much damage done to their bodies to be teleported, but the Ga-Matoran she drowned should definitely should have been teleported, since Mavrah died the same way.

Well let's look at what the story said.

Lhikan knelt down beside the still, ruined body of the Ta-Matoran. He lay where he had fallen after a vat of molten Protodermis had inexplicably tipped and spilled its searing contents on him. It was an awful way to die.

According to the "brain has to be intact" theory this one is likely ruled out for the Red Star. I'm presuming he would be standing when this happened, and the head would be the first melted -- at least it's the most likely scenario.

The first rays of dawn had illuminated the object in the road now, and Kongu could see it for what it was: a dead Le-Matoran, mask shattered from a fall.

It's possible the impact destroyed his brain enough to count. Depends on the fall and the makeup of the brain. The mention of the mask shattering, but not any other detail makes me wonder if the head hit first (and if that might even be intentional? ).

He was even clutching a tablet that was intact. Dunno if Tuyet put that in his hand afterward or not, though. The first one was too, and I don't think that tablet was damaged either as far as is mentioned, so that might not help...

But just thinking it through -- since we know corpses disappear (and this must be common knowledge), and we don't know how long the time delay is, if any, and we know Tuyet was putting tablets in their hands (my point not being about whether before or after the killing but that she needed the tablets found in their hands to set up the DH threat cover story), if she let them die in a way that she knew enabled them to disappear, her goals would fail. She needn't have any clue why bodies typically disappear. But she would need to make sure they die in ways that destroy the brain. Otherwise there's no corpse to hold her tablets.

Presumably over the course of the extremely long history in Bionicle someone would have figured this pattern out, and she heard of it.

It took longer than Lhikan expected to get his tasks done. Night had already fallen by the time he made it to Ga-Metru. Nidhiki was there ahead of him, standing with Toa Tuyet amidst a crowd of Matoran. A Ga-Matoran was lying on the ground, unmoving. From the puddle around the body, Lhikan guessed she had been fished out a canal. In her hand was the now familiar stone tablet bearing Tuyet's name.

"What happened?" he asked, already guessing the answer.
"It was awful," said Tuyet. "I heard a scream and a splash … I ran out … but she was already dead. Drowned, with that … that terrible reminder in her hand."
"Just like the others," Nidhiki said, his eyes meeting Lhikan's for a long moment. "Tell him when this happened, Tuyet."
"Only a few minutes ago," said the Toa of Water.

At first glance this one seems to contradict, but notice the context -- it only happened a few minutes ago. More evidence for the time delay; presumably this corpse did disappear later.

This could minorly contradict my above reasoning too, but notice a crowd gathers in just a few minutes, and Tuyet mentions a scream -- likely because the crowd heard it too and she couldn't contradict their witness accounts. I bet Tuyet was trying to use a more effective means of killing (to make sure the body remained for the tablet), but this Matoran screamed and drew witnesses, so Tuyet had to quickly drown the Matoran and then make it look like she tried to rescue a drowning Matoran. If such a scenario did happen, after all, a drowning death is exactly what you'd expect from a murderous Toa of Water, and I would not expect a Toa of Water who's murdering to intentionally use drowning as a method (as that would too obviously draw attention to her). Interesting...

And then Lhikan confronts her. I skimmed some parts but I'm pretty sure it was only those three victims. It can all fit quite naturally on close examination. I'd even say that once again it appears Greg had planned this well in advance of this story, as he includes exactly the right details to make it fit this easily. Note that this was posted in 2007, at a time when we've already concluded he had almost certainly decided this.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 06 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[The Iron Toa]

Spoiler

But if bodies that are heavily damaged don't disappear, then there would be a need for Matoran graveyards.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

But if bodies that are heavily damaged don't disappear, then there would be a need for Matoran graveyards.

What Greg said was, "which is why you don't see BIONICLE graveyards", which doesn't necessarily mean there are no graves. Most bodies would disappear, but there could be occasional exceptions, since he said, "then either repaired or a new one is made to house the consciousness" -- strongly implying that if the consciousness is gone from the body (due to the brain being obliterated), the being cannot be revived.

But keep in mind it's still possible the first two bodies in Many Deaths did disappear later. The mention that the third had just happened helps show that they saw it within the theorized time delay, but it tells us nothing about how long that time delay is. I was running on the theory that the brain needed to be intact to be teleported up. We don't know that for sure -- perhaps there's a way to repair most brains to "data recovery" the consciousnesses. If not, then all three bodies likely were teleported, and the time delay must be a while.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

Spoiler

O....M....G!
This makes me so happy! It supports my hope of zombie-matoran in the red star! Yes! Thank you Greg!

[Makuta Matata]

Spoiler

So... DOES THIS MEAN TURAGA LIHKAN IS ALIVE?

[Magnetic Vorahk]

So, then... so, then...

Spoiler

Characters That Could Be Alive
Botar
Hydraxon (the original)
Jovan
Lhikan
Mavrah
Nikila
Nocturn
Reysa
Sidorak

Characters That Could Not Be Alive
Ancient
Antroz
Bitil
Carapar
Chirox
Gorast
Icarax
Kojol
Krekka
Krika
Matoro
Mutran
Nidhiki
Spiriah
Tridax
Vamprah
Zaktan

Characters Whose Methods of Death are Unknown
Hydraxon (the original)
Ihu
Jovan
Kodan
Naho
Nocturn

Edited by Magnetic Vorahk, Oct 06 2012 - 07:26 PM.

[Lewa Krom]

Spoiler

Surprisingly, I'm actually okay with Lhikan coming back if he's a Turaga. I don't why, but I think that could be very interesting.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Spoiler

Oh, great, so pretty much NO ONE died except the Makuta and Matoro?

Gaaaaah.

[Angel Bob]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Oh, great, so pretty much NO ONE died except the Makuta and Matoro?

Gaaaaah.

Considering that the Makuta and Matoro would, IMO, have been the only irksome ones to bring back, I'm cool with that. Most of these not-obliterated dead characters were never given enough screen time, and I'm almost glad that we could see them again.

[Tekulo the WindWriter]

You laughed at me... You all laughed at me...

Spoiler

Hmm... I'll try to break this down into two possibilities.
1) The body is buried.
2) The body is not buried.

I'll start with 2).
We know that the matoran were created as tools. Say I break a wrench. What would I do? First I'd try to fix it, maybe see if I could save any of the material for scrap work. This is the logic that might propose matoran are not buried. They have quite a bit of mechanical parts to them, and if I were a Great Being, if one of these "broke down" (aka died) then I might consider that possibility and create a system where the materials might be reused.
We know matoran are created specially (they're full adults when created, and I've imaged they're made by a factory of sorts somewhere in Mata Nui's body for replacements). So, what if there's a sort of "laundry chute" or a "scrap yard" where Mata Nui's body could re-absorb the material and use them elsewhere?
If I were a Great Being, that's the route I would take instead of just wasting the material to create a matoran. '
I'm not necessarily saying the matoran actually use this system, but I think it's an interesting thought to consider the possibility of one existing.

1) matoran are buried.
However, the Great Beings did not count on the sentience of Matoran. Seeing as how human they act (humanoid figure, moral debates, etc), I wouldn't say it would be crazy to think they buried their dead. As said previously, the idea of "Memorial Carvings" would mean they do indeed have a similar outlook on death as humans would.
Going back to 2) for a moment: This doesn't necessarily mean the carvings go with the body. They could just be a place mark to remember what is lost (including the materials to create the matoran).

I could see either option being canon (maybe even both), though there seems to be a bit more support for 1), looking at the previous comments.

i will admit i like the possibility of your second option. my only thing is that there would have to be a lot of chutes all through out the matoran universe and i just don't think it would be efficient. and safe. heck the dark hunters could just take somebody and throw them into the chute. although that could be a way of recycling.

Hmm... Good point, though this is a universe where people shoot energy from their fingertips, travel to other dimensions and transform, so it doesn't necessarily have to be so generic in design.
The chutes may not even be physical. We saw Botar transport prisoners to the pit by opening up a portal. Maybe it's a similar concept? There could be a sort of timing device in their bodies that, when it goes off, it transports the body away to a "scrap yard," or it could be another design entirely, like after the bodies are buried, the ground absorbs the body (assuming, of course, bodies are indeed buried)?

Of course, I could be totally wrong on this. XP

Every time someone died, all they had left was their Kanohi, so that probably doesn't transport.

Ah, yes, I think it was mentioned earlier that kanohi could be easily re-used for living matoran (for example, where Jaller's mask broke when they first arrived on Mata Nui and Vakama replaced his old mask with Lhikan's).
I think it would be possible for the Great Beings to take that into consideration? :shrug:
After all, putting on a mask? Easy. Replacing your broken arm? Not so easy (or maybe it is seeing as how the Toa Mata did it. XP).

Edit: Or it might be because a mask is detached from the user's main body. This would likely also mean that any armor the user is wearing would also be left behind.
Support: Toa Tuyet found under the waters near Mahri Nui. All that remained was her armor and kanohi (if I remember correctly) as well as crystal fragments. I'm not sure how mechanical parts deteriorate over time, but I'd think there would be more than armor and a mask left over (even after so long). This might support the existence of a "scrap yard" where the rest of her body was transported. (Or gears are just bio-degradable and I'm completely wrong. XP).

... I was... right... I actually guessed something right about Bionicle (or at least I was highly on the right track)... I... I need a moment... This has never happened before. XD (Though, it does put a damper on a few fanfic thingies...)

Edited by Tekulo: Toa of the Breeze, Oct 07 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Angel Bob]

Congrats Tekulo, you're brilliant.

[Erebus]

Added new information about the lightning to the first post.

[Tekulo the WindWriter]

Congrats Tekulo, you're brilliant.

Pfft, I've always known that. It's just nice to have some proof. XP

Spoiler

So, that's the story behind the lightning, huh? Does this mean that the toa Mahri were only destined to be toa upon circumstance? In other words, they weren't meant to be toa unless they were needed as a fail-safe? Interesting. Destiny, your virtue grows ever more convoluted.

[Makuta Matata]

Congrats Tekulo, you're brilliant.

Pfft, I've always known that. It's just nice to have some proof. XP

Spoiler

So, that's the story behind the lightning, huh? Does this mean that the toa Mahri were only destined to be toa upon circumstance? In other words, they weren't meant to be toa unless they were needed as a fail-safe? Interesting. Destiny, your virtue grows ever more convoluted.

Spoiler

They weren't destined to be Toa in the first place. I'm pretty sure it was stated in the book. The part that surprises me is that Matoran were never meant to leave the MU.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

They weren't destined to be Toa in the first place. I'm pretty sure it was stated in the book. The part that surprises me is that Matoran were never meant to leave the MU.

1) In what book? Pretty sure you have to have a destiny to be Toa to become one. And if it could just override a lack of destiny, why not pick six Voyatoran -- maybe replacing Dezalk for Velika since he was actually a GB, admittedly, but yeah?

2) Well, I think Greg is talking about the original GBs' plan. Mata Nui island was just supposed to be an uninhabited camouflage island in case aliens of the planets he spied on happened to sail there. It was not supposed to be a refuge for the Matoran -- we've known that for a long time. However, I think it's still likely that destiny changed when Mata Nui fell ill and crashed -- whether he set it to change in his last awake moments or it's automatically adaptive I dunno. So after that it is probably true that a new plan was made up so that they were supposed to leave there, as there was nowhere else to go.

On the other hand, Makuta basically drove them away, so not sure.

[Magnetic Vorahk]

Spoiler

They weren't destined to be Toa in the first place. I'm pretty sure it was stated in the book. The part that surprises me is that Matoran were never meant to leave the MU.

1) In what book? Pretty sure you have to have a destiny to be Toa to become one. And if it could just override a lack of destiny, why not pick six Voyatoran -- maybe replacing Dezalk for Velika since he was actually a GB, admittedly, but yeah?

2) Well, I think Greg is talking about the original GBs' plan. Mata Nui island was just supposed to be an uninhabited camouflage island in case aliens of the planets he spied on happened to sail there. It was not supposed to be a refuge for the Matoran -- we've known that for a long time. However, I think it's still likely that destiny changed when Mata Nui fell ill and crashed -- whether he set it to change in his last awake moments or it's automatically adaptive I dunno. So after that it is probably true that a new plan was made up so that they were supposed to leave there, as there was nowhere else to go.

On the other hand, Makuta basically drove them away, so not sure.

Spoiler

Well, considering the weirdness of the Inika's transformation, it's possible that the whole "you have to be destined to become a Toa" thing could have been overridden. And anyway, the Red Star wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Voya Nui resident and a newcomer, it just picked six Matoran.

[~The 1st Shadow~]

Spoiler

Somehow, I'd guessed at the part about the lightning. I got the idea from what the Av-Matoran in Karzahni said about only Toa being able to ride in the canisters. And then at the end of Dark Destiny when it said something about the Piraka being "far away from the scene of rebirth." That all got me thinking that the RS was trying to send something/someone (namely, Toa) down to the ocean, but it hit the six Matoran by chance, and they merged with whatever was being sent down and they became Toa, as such.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

Well, considering the weirdness of the Inika's transformation, it's possible that the whole "you have to be destined to become a Toa" thing could have been overridden. And anyway, the Red Star wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Voya Nui resident and a newcomer, it just picked six Matoran.

If it just picked, then why go at the exact moment six Matoran arrived after a long and difficult journey to reach it, when there were resident Matoran it could have transformed at any time? The lightning actually activated long before the Inika arrived, in fact; the transformation happened as soon as they were in range. Methinks that's no coincidence.

And we can't know that it can't tell that difference, but more likely the only difference it can tell is destined Matoran and non-destineds. Or it might not need any sensor at all -- just send out the beam and the moment a destined walks into the beam, the effect happens like a chemical reaction. Any non-destineds in range will not be affected. (In theory.)

[The Iron Toa]

Spoiler

So if the Red Star can bring Toa into being outside of the Matoran Universe, does that mean that as long as it's working and orbiting Spherus Magna the Toa will never go extinct? Maybe not, now that Mata Nui's mission is over, but I wonder what determines a need for Toa.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Spoiler

And more new information comes in.

I'm not surprised that Matoran were never meant to live outside the MU. But the part with the lightning transforming Jaller and co. into Toa Inika is a little weird to me. Aside from the 'it was their destiny' statement, the whole scene with them becoming Inika just feels like it was a random event to me. I know other members have given reason as to why it might have not been a coincidence, but it still feels random to me.

[bonesiii]

Spoiler

So if the Red Star can bring Toa into being outside of the Matoran Universe, does that mean that as long as it's working and orbiting Spherus Magna the Toa will never go extinct? Maybe not, now that Mata Nui's mission is over, but I wonder what determines a need for Toa.

Well, perhaps now that the Toa have reached it they might be able to reprogram it so the people of Spherus Magna determine it.

Prior to that, I think destinies set by the GBs or Mata Nui (especially as contingencies) determined it. We don't know enough to rule out that destiny could adapt... and we don't know that destiny isn't still in play with the protodermic beings and the Red Star itself. But presumably Mata Nui can't set them the way he could when he was in charge of the giant robot.

I'm not surprised that Matoran were never meant to live outside the MU. But the part with the lightning transforming Jaller and co. into Toa Inika is a little weird to me. Aside from the 'it was their destiny' statement, the whole scene with them becoming Inika just feels like it was a random event to me. I know other members have given reason as to why it might have not been a coincidence, but it still feels random to me.

You mean it felt random at the time? Or still feels random? As to why the RS would be used for this, I gather? (Because in terms of the need for Toa, the story at the time was clearly not random; we saw six Matoran, one of each element, go on a quest to an island that desperately needed Toa, and we know of destinies for such things, and that we need new canister heroes every year (setwise I know but it's part of the genre ). Isn't it pure logic that they would become Toa? But the method I agree felt surprising and I think many fans missed the point that it was supposed to be mysterious and saw it as a copout type thing.)

I actually theorized about that before; basically if someone who's destined is under the real sky, it's simple logic that a satellite in that sky might be able to send a beam of needed energy (Toa energy) to Toa-ize them. If they were outside. Pretty much exactly what Greg revealed, actually, although I had a bit more about the destiny systems in my theory. By contrast, someone in the MU wouldn't be reachable by that beam, and they'd have to get a Toa Stone or the like from a current / old Toa. Which would be much easier there since there were supposed to be Toa everywhere in there. But outside, not so.

[Katuko]

Spoiler

Well, considering the weirdness of the Inika's transformation, it's possible that the whole "you have to be destined to become a Toa" thing could have been overridden. And anyway, the Red Star wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a Voya Nui resident and a newcomer, it just picked six Matoran.

If it just picked, then why go at the exact moment six Matoran arrived after a long and difficult journey to reach it, when there were resident Matoran it could have transformed at any time? The lightning actually activated long before the Inika arrived, in fact; the transformation happened as soon as they were in range. Methinks that's no coincidence.

And we can't know that it can't tell that difference, but more likely the only difference it can tell is destined Matoran and non-destineds. Or it might not need any sensor at all -- just send out the beam and the moment a destined walks into the beam, the effect happens like a chemical reaction. Any non-destineds in range will not be affected. (In theory.)

Spoiler

The Matoran who became the Toa Inika arrived at Voya Nui in Toa Canisters. To me, that seems like the reason they were targeted by the lightning.

[fishers64]

Spoiler

Not really surprised by recent reveal. It was a pretty logical theory anyway.

Somehow, I'd guessed at the part about the lightning. I got the idea from what the Av-Matoran in Karzahni said about only Toa being able to ride in the canisters. And then at the end of Dark Destiny when it said something about the Piraka being "far away from the scene of rebirth." That all got me thinking that the RS was trying to send something/someone (namely, Toa) down to the ocean, but it hit the six Matoran by chance, and they merged with whatever was being sent down and they became Toa, as such.

I think what was sent down was just Toa energy mixed with electricity.

***

For some reason, I read Dark Destiny somewhat recently and recall that there was a lightning storm before the "destined Matoran" arrived on the island. So the system might have been trying to Toa-ize something, but couldn't do it, couldn't do it, until the Toa canisters showed up on the beach.

This would also indirectly tell us that none of the Voya Nui Matoran were destined to become Toa, (at least in this dimension), or at least make that a strong suspicion. It also makes me suspect, slightly, that Karz-repaired Matoran are less likely to become Toa.