450 replies to this topic

[Meta-Mind]

After reading this topic (http://www.bzpower.c...?showtopic=7233), somebody has probably brought this up before, but what if the City of Silver Pocket dimension is the Red Star? The RS certainly fits the description of a pocket dimension, and there are Kestora in there.... And, I mean, I think that would be the only reason why Greg would bother introducing the City of Silver, as it just makes things really confusing and raises a whole lot of questions.

This is not a bad theory, actually. It's possible that there are specialized "warrior" Kestora, and that that village was created by revived MU beings.

(What's with the Spectral Hau?)

INB4 Lhikan.

...No, seriously, that would be hilarious.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Oct 14 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

After reading this topic (http://www.bzpower.c...?showtopic=7233), somebody has probably brought this up before, but what if the City of Silver Pocket dimension is the Red Star? The RS certainly fits the description of a pocket dimension, and there are Kestora in there.... And, I mean, I think that would be the only reason why Greg would bother introducing the City of Silver, as it just makes things really confusing and raises a whole lot of questions. (What's with the Spectral Hau?)

Greg's said more than once that the City of Silver little kid's book is completely irrelevant to the story as a whole because, well, it was written for 5 year olds.

But he could have changed his mind in the end, seeing as there's no rigid guidelines he has to follow for the story anymore.

[fishers64]

After reading this topic (http://www.bzpower.c...?showtopic=7233), somebody has probably brought this up before, but what if the City of Silver Pocket dimension is the Red Star? The RS certainly fits the description of a pocket dimension, and there are Kestora in there.... And, I mean, I think that would be the only reason why Greg would bother introducing the City of Silver, as it just makes things really confusing and raises a whole lot of questions. (What's with the Spectral Hau?)

No.

3. Is the City of Silver Pocket Dimension really the Red Star?

3) No. There simply are versions of the purple and black beings in both places.

[flynn58]

It could be that some Kestora migrated from the Red Star to the City of Silver Pocket Dimension, for unknown reasons.

[Taipu1]

It could be that some Kestora migrated from the Red Star to the City of Silver Pocket Dimension, for unknown reasons.

As a pocket dimension, its possible they could live in that dimension, and teleport in when they have their work to do. Of course, the city was not owned by the Kestora, but there could be somewhere else in that dimension where they live. Perhaps (if the serial is finished) we might end up seeing the large being(s) who did own the city?

[Magnetic Vorahk]

I would at least guess that they are related in some way, and it would probably be mentioned in the serial (if it is finished).

[GLaDOS]

Colour me truly impressed. They did an amazing job of using the Red Star (something previously very mysterious) to clean up a lot of story points.

[Podu]

I suddenly realize that with this new information the Tryna and Mask of Undeath might be... a bit less useful than they were thought to be. I can imagine someone using the Tryna when the bodies suddenly disappear and a reanimated Mask of Undeath user got teleported in the middle of his tasks lol.

[Baron Von Nebula]

I suddenly realize that with this new information the Tryna and Mask of Undeath might be... a bit less useful than they were thought to be. I can imagine someone using the Tryna when the bodies suddenly disappear and a reanimated Mask of Undeath user got teleported in the middle of his tasks lol.

The Great Beings invented Kanohi too. Maybe the Red Star can sense if a body is being influenced by a Kanohi (I think the Tryna and Mask of Undeath may work the same way, just one animates others and the other animates the user) and the teleporter will "wait" until they left alone.

[bonesiii]

As far as Undeath goes, I would see it as two things now (but to be clear this shouldn't be taken as canon, just my opinion):

1) A contingency in case the Sendback teleporter broke, as it did, and a mission in the MU did need completed by that person.

2) A mission that is highly time sensitive and cannot wait for the body to get teleported away and revived and sent back (and possibly need to travel again). Especially if there is a default time delay between death and being teleported up to the RS.

For the Tryna, I'm still a bit confused on this, but if there is that time delay, and/or if some corpses can be too damaged to go up, it could still have its uses. And it was given to Matoro outside the MU, so may still be evidence for the theory that the teleporter only works (whether to or from) with the MU.

BVN's theory would also work for Undeath, but not sure about Tryna. If there's no time delay, I don't think it would. Of course, it's possible something like destiny could also sense a need for the corpse to stay for a while. We don't know how smart this system is.

[Erebus]

UPDATE [10/17]:

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

Spoiler

Does the Red Star always work in reviving every dead being with an intact body or is it selective about what it chooses to resurrect? Rahi too?

No, it works in general, everyone has some role to play in the universe.

Spoiler

Jaller was revived by Takutanuva rather than the Red Star simply because "there would be nothing movie-level dramatic about him beaming out and then beaming back in later on."

[The Lorax]

For the Tryna, I'm still a bit confused on this, but if there is that time delay, and/or if some corpses can be too damaged to go up, it could still have its uses. And it was given to Matoro outside the MU, so may still be evidence for the theory that the teleporter only works (whether to or from) with the MU.

Just to add to this, (the fake) Tuyet's body hung around rotting in the pit for a thousand years before Matoro reanimated it without ever being brought to the red star, and the same goes for Matoro's army of long-dead sea-creatures. Being outside of the universe might have had something to do with that.

[flynn58]

I concur, why was the fake Tuyet body in the pit for 1000 years?

[Toa Smoke Monster]

UPDATE [10/17]:

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

Spoiler

1. So wait, the Tryna actually revives the deceased being while is use? I just thought that it animated the body with the mask's energies and the user's willpower. But from how the text is worded, it sounds like the being is actually revived while the Tryna is in use. That is kind of disturbing, IMO.

[Erebus]

UPDATE [10/17]:

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

Spoiler

1. So wait, the Tryna actually revives the deceased being while is use? I just thought that it animated the body with the mask's energies and the user's willpower. But from how the text is worded, it sounds like the being is actually revived while the Tryna is in use. That is kind of disturbing, IMO.

Spoiler

Greg means that the mask just reanimates right away, nothing to do with revival like the Red Star does.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

UPDATE [10/17]:

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

Spoiler

1. So wait, the Tryna actually revives the deceased being while is use? I just thought that it animated the body with the mask's energies and the user's willpower. But from how the text is worded, it sounds like the being is actually revived while the Tryna is in use. That is kind of disturbing, IMO.

Spoiler

Greg means that the mask just reanimates right away, nothing to do with revival like the Red Star does.

Spoiler

Okay. I get it now.

[XyzTheDay!]

Spoiler

Jaller was revived by Takutanuva rather than the Red Star simply because "there would be nothing movie-level dramatic about him beaming out and then beaming back in later on."

Spoiler

Well that's a...very unsatisfactory explanation.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Oct 18 2012 - 03:57 AM.

[Axonn's Fury]

Wow, I haven't caught up on Bionicle since the Mata Nui battle animation on the website.

This whole Red Star shenanigans is ridiculously disappointing. It voids any and all tragedies that ever happened, rendering the emotional connectivity that makes this storyline so intriguing, entirely moot.

I won't say anything important, as I can't add spoilers from my phone, I just think this kind of ruins the entire story, which honestly leaves me a bit crestfallen. I grew up reading and playing with Bionicle following its lore more religiously than anything else, and this is all we get from the ending? Call me nastalgic, but this sucks.

-Taka


EDIT: slightly off-topic, is there anywhere that explains this story in a consolodated manner? Im having difficulty following it through all the posts.

Edited by Axonn's Fury, Oct 18 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[XyzTheDay!]

It voids any and all tragedies that ever happened, rendering the emotional connectivity that makes this storyline so intriguing, entirely moot.

Not if the body is completely disintegrated, it doesn't.
Matoro's sacrifice is still intact, as is Toa Ignika's (even though that one was never really in question).

However, if it really bothers you that much, then just put it the ol' Fanon Discontinuity file. Just like I did with the notion that Jaller's Crab was left in Mahri Nui.

EDIT: slightly off-topic, is there anywhere that explains this story in a consolodated manner? Im having difficulty following it through all the posts.

You might try the Saga Guides on Biosector01, but even those are kinda lengthy.

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Oct 18 2012 - 06:23 PM.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Reading these updates is so much easier than having to look for answers from PMs in a "Greg Answers Q's" thread.

[Takhamavahu]

Spoiler

Jaller was revived by Takutanuva rather than the Red Star simply because "there would be nothing movie-level dramatic about him beaming out and then beaming back in later on."

Spoiler

Had all this red star stuff even been written yet at the time of the movie? The earliest we heard anything about the star since 2001 was in late 2007. I wouldn't think the writers of the movie would have had access to this information about the red star.

[fishers64]

Spoiler

Jaller was revived by Takutanuva rather than the Red Star simply because "there would be nothing movie-level dramatic about him beaming out and then beaming back in later on."

Had all this red star stuff even been written yet at the time of the movie? The earliest we heard anything about the star since 2001 was in late 2007. I wouldn't think the writers of the movie would have had access to this information about the red star.

The revelation quote itself implies that the story team had the secret planned out in 2003, and rejected it for the reason stated. Whether the story team decided among themselves not to use it because it wouldn't be dramatic, or whether the writers of the film threw it out after hearing it, remains unknown.

[unknown456]

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

So, the Mask of Undeath then?

[Makuta Matata]

Spoiler

So, if someone died in the Pit, would they be able to come back? Like Nocturn? Also, would it reverse mutations? Like on Zaktan?
And I'm really interested to see how Turaga Likhan and Turaga Vakama would react upon seeing each other....
Overall, this plot twist was good, but I feel like it wasn't the best thing Greg could have done with the story.

[Axonn's Fury]

Curious; is it necessary to use spoilers still? In any case...

Spoiler

My biggest question is, why isn't everyone alive, then? Does the Red Star just choose who to revive? Or, once dead, are you able to decide whether to come back as yourself (fully healed, in time, it seems), or continue on to... Well, not sure exactly what would happen.

Edited by Axonn's Fury, Oct 22 2012 - 07:30 AM.

[Sir Flex Nardius]

Spoiler

See with that last quote... about the movie quality drama... this revelation totally destroys all of the story quality drama. If death wasn't forever then evil villains or any character wouldn't care about it. I don't approve of this revelation and since Bionicle is pretty much ended since it doesn't seem like the serials are going to be continued to me since he's revealing all of the mysteries that were going to be in them anyway I'll just pretend like this whole thing never happened XD

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

Spoiler

Spoiler

The Kanohi Tryna, the Mask of Reanimation, brings you back right away with all the damage -- red star takes a good deal longer, but repairs the damage.

So, the Mask of Undeath then?

I think that just delays the teleport/reanimation. Or it might just keep your body going, but your mind and spirit is dead.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, no need for spoilers anymore. Sorry, fell a bit behind with this topic, heh.

See with that last quote... about the movie quality drama... this revelation totally destroys all of the story quality drama. If death wasn't forever then evil villains or any character wouldn't care about it. I don't approve of this revelation and since Bionicle is pretty much ended since it doesn't seem like the serials are going to be continued to me since he's revealing all of the mysteries that were going to be in them anyway I'll just pretend like this whole thing never happened XD

That quote was just talking about the story purpose within that particular story. Notice it wasn't saying there was something ruinous about revival -- revival was used! Rather, just the appearance of randomly teleporting versus a character who was there doing it. The quote itself basically debunks that reasoning... And it's a non sequitar that only totally permanent death would be cared about at all.

Do any of you really buy this idea that this "ruins" anything? It might cast some of the really ancient deaths into doubt, but once the Sendback broke, this doesn't really change any of the deaths in the MU, what it does is adds another possibility for story.

Those of you saying this are acting like it's all "good news for the characters," as if there's no challenge here, yet the story clearly portrays a challenge, possibly several. (And it's confirmed some like Matoro or Makuta aren't revived.) I just don't buy that anyone really thinks this ruins anything. I'm getting the vibe this is just something some of you feel might be popular to say. Because the reasonings being given to back it up don't add up...


Anywho, I agree the Mask of Undeath probably just automatically delays the teleportation of the body up to the RS. Since we already stated that you have to be wearing it when you die for it to kick in, and it starts immediately then.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 22 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Dorek]

At the risk of treading near the "no religion talk" rule, there's the same argument. Just because there happens to be life after death in this instance doesn't make their sacrifices any more meaningful, since they didn't know it at the time (and were never intended to know it at all, being robots and whatnot).

As for the mask of undeath, since we have the Tryna, it's not entirely out of the question (still highlights the silly canonization fad, but that's a different story). It is possible to animate dead bodies regardless, and I figure it's less of a slow vengeance thing (as I believe it was initially described) than a backup in case you get owned mid-battle. Same with the Tryna; buddy get killed next to you in the war? No problem! Revive him with a handy-dandy mask of Reanimation.

[Axonn's Fury]

Bonseiii -

I think that "vibe" you're getting isn't necessarily a bad vibe. Looking at the whole thing from a story prospective, it might deem itself worthy of a decent addition/closure/add-on. Because, sure, what's not cool about a star reviving fully functional and healthy characters that have passed? Plus, it adds quite an interesting spin on past-characters (as in characters that may show up in the future, now?), and the possibilities of future stories.

Now, if you look at it from a personal level, this news seems almost a little disheartening... As it has been previously stated, the sacrifices made by characters, most notably Matoro, seem slightly less meaningful in terms of what his actions meant, or for that matter, what any characters sacrifice and decisions could mean. And I have to agree, certain parts of the Bionicle story line now seem a little less meaningful to me, seeing as it wouldn't matter too much what would happen either way, just as long as the RS was there.

Granted, I say this with ill-knowledge of what exactly the RS is capable of. For instance, if it chooses who it revives, or if it just revives everyone (which wouldn't make sense as its been stated that Makuta and Matoro will not be revived).

But only Greg F truly knows what's gonna happen with this whole RS thing, right?


- Taka

[XyzTheDay!]

Granted, I say this with ill-knowledge of what exactly the RS is capable of. For instance, if it chooses who it revives, or if it just revives everyone (which wouldn't make sense as its been stated that Makuta and Matoro will not be revived).

It does make sense. The Star revives everyone that isn't disintegrated. Stuff like the dead Rahi bodies can probably be considered retconned out.

[bonesiii]

As for the mask of undeath, since we have the Tryna, it's not entirely out of the question (still highlights the silly canonization fad, but that's a different story).

At the risk of beating an undead horse ( ), canonization was most certainly not a fad. Think about it, if an author has a story that's so world-buildingly complex as Bionicle, it's likely that occasionally fans will also have good ideas to add. I've already made it clear I do agree with the criticisms of the way it was originally done, one of the last of which was the Undeath thing, but that's why we listened to that and formed the Story Squad. The only thing that put an end to that is the same thing that put an end to new serial chapters -- Greg not having the time, etc. etc. While the option was available it remained popular, so not a fad.

I think that "vibe" you're getting isn't necessarily a bad vibe. Looking at the whole thing from a story prospective, it might deem itself worthy of a decent addition/closure/add-on. Because, sure, what's not cool about a star reviving fully functional and healthy characters that have passed? Plus, it adds quite an interesting spin on past-characters (as in characters that may show up in the future, now?), and the possibilities of future stories.

Agreed.

Now, if you look at it from a personal level, this news seems almost a little disheartening...

But that's not what I'm responding to. There's a vast difference between seeming almost a little bad, and utter ruin. Especially since that seeming -- it seems to me -- is so much of a toss-up. You can pick a way to look at it that makes it feel that way, or you can pick a way that makes it utterly thrilling.

And I'd argue that picking the way that makes it feel disheartening would seem to be nearly the opposite of how we'd feel if we were in the character's proverbial foot armor, so to me it seems to be an intentional choice not to suspend disbelief, yanno? Put it this way, is it about revival in general, or about this specific handling of revival?

But okay, just hypothetically, if someone is wired to have the personal taste to dislike it a little, that makes sense. We all understand that a character permanently ending, like Matoro, has a certain value to it (although does every death need to be the same in that sense?), plot-wise. But to say it totally ruins things, that's what I'm questioning whether anyone really feels that way.

As it has been previously stated, the sacrifices made by characters, most notably Matoro, seem slightly less meaningful in terms of what his actions meant, or for that matter, what any characters sacrifice and decisions could mean.

Why do you give Matoro as the example, considering he's confirmed gone for good? See, Greg is on-record as pointing this out with respect to Matoro. But why must all the other deaths try to copy the Matoro strategy?

How about variety? Can't that be just as fun? Arguably, more?

And I have to agree, certain parts of the Bionicle story line now seem a little less meaningful to me, seeing as it wouldn't matter too much what would happen either way, just as long as the RS was there.

Granted, I say this with ill-knowledge of what exactly the RS is capable of.

Bolded for emphasis, because I think both these are actually false. We know enough to say it matters a ton. Think about it. You die. Then, yay, you're alive again! Yay... Then you look around... and there's these creepy beings who want to dissect you, there's some former villains (likely), and most of all, you're trapped there. You have to flee from the angry mob Mavrah mentioned, that Kopaka & Pohatu were being chased by, and you're stuck in a place you were never supposed to live.

Actually, that's not the most important point, the most important is that in the MU, you're not there, so whatever good you could have done is out. Just the same as if you'd died.

That matters a lot.

That's what I'm saying, it seems like people are forgetting these things.

The Star revives everyone that isn't disintegrated.

That's not confirmed. Caution and precision about just what we do and don't know is always best.

What we know is that disintegrated bodies are definitely out. We don't know if that means everybody else is in. It's quite possible there are others who are out, like if the brain is crushed.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 22 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[Sir Flex Nardius]

Do any of you really buy this idea that this "ruins" anything? It might cast some of the really ancient deaths into doubt, but once the Sendback broke, this doesn't really change any of the deaths in the MU, what it does is adds another possibility for story.

Those of you saying this are acting like it's all "good news for the characters," as if there's no challenge here, yet the story clearly portrays a challenge, possibly several. (And it's confirmed some like Matoro or Makuta aren't revived.) I just don't buy that anyone really thinks this ruins anything. I'm getting the vibe this is just something some of you feel might be popular to say. Because the reasonings being given to back it up don't add up...

I don't say anything because its popular I say what is my honest opinion. And I don't think its changing. This would ruin any story, just like it sort of cheapened Dragon Ball Z or Marvel or any story where character's don't stay dead. Why fear death when POOF your back alive. Why would anyone do their duty and not just do whatever they wanted if there were nor dire consequences? See this makes Takanuva's rebirth less special. It made him like the messiah of toa sense he died and then came back... now it seems any toa can do it and that whole scene is much less powerful.

Besides do we even know if characters when brought back have their old memories and remember dying? or do they get mind wipes?

[bonesiii]

Why fear death when POOF your back alive.

Put yourself in a character's shoes here. You'd fear this. Imagine you're stuck on the Red Star, chased by villains and who knows what else, and the established rulers of this place want to kill you (since if you just got revived, you're too many).

Besides that, you aren't at home.

Yet, you would certainly be glad at the chance of possibly surviving all this and getting back home eventually! Would you want to fear death? Wouldn't most people who are in danger appreciate a rescue option?

This would ruin any story, just like it sort of cheapened Dragon Ball Z or Marvel or any story where character's don't stay dead.

And yet Bionicle has done it before. Jaller and Takanuva. (And technically Matoro on the 777 stairs.)

We can get into the whole "cheapened" thing, pet peeve (basically that's an out-story consideration that IMO isn't consistent with how we treat other things), but Greg has echoed it in the case of Matoro, so oh well. What I'm mainly curious about is if "ruin" is kind of... exaggeration? What's that word... hyperbole? Or do you literally feel that this utterly destroys the story's enjoyability for you? That seems unlikely.

Why would anyone do their duty and not just do whatever they wanted if there were nor dire consequences?

What do you mean?

Duty often includes dying to stand up for what's right... If motivation for duty is the issue, then doesn't this argue for the option of revival? Ask a hero to save the day, and survive the action -- wouldn't anyone be grateful for that? Wouldn't that be more motive to do your duty? This is why it takes such extreme heroism in cases like Matoro where he basically understood he could not come back this time to do it even in the face of death.

So... it kinda sounds, no offense ( ) like you have it backwards.

Also, I don't see how there aren't consequences. Saving lives alone does not solve all the problems in the world. Especially if people really did (strangely ) take it as a license to do whatever. Everything would fall apart, the MU would fail, and all the revival in the world wouldn't help. And failure to live harmoniously (the virtue of Unity; essentially meaning to do the right thing for others) creates a worse world to live in. People can understand that without needing death as the result of all that's bad that they might do -- otherwise, wouldn't only deadly mistakes ever be avoided?

Besides, they do still die. That would probably be a painful experience anybody would want to avoid, although that does make me think of a story possibility in some crazy character embracing it lol.

Actually, even if some did come up with that motivation idea you have, that presents even more story possibilities! That's a good thing!

However, we have to keep in mind that all these systems were designed without the knowledge that the MU inhabitants had the ability to go against their programming other than in glitches, so the point is probably moot anyways. Using sapient, freewill motivation logic in connection with systems the GBs designed doesn't work in Bionicle, as they were operating under the (mistaken) premise that such things weren't possible.

So it all comes back to the observation that this reasoning just doesn't seem to add up... (for ruin).

See this makes Takanuva's rebirth less special. It made him like the messiah of toa sense he died and then came back... now it seems any toa can do it and that whole scene is much less powerful.

I can understand that; I've been wondering if anyone had such a reaction. But by the same token, you're agreeing that there is a power in revival, that it's not just bad, so doesn't this contradict your idea that any revival cheapens or ruins it? Takanuva's revival, like others in Bionicle, shows that this is within the accepted genre of Bionicle.

Personally it adds immense value to Jaller's revival, if not Takanuva's (to the latter I've basically been confused until recently whether his death was even canon, though now it's clear it was; the book by Hapka had him not die at all) -- it naturally points us to Jaller and other revivals and says, "what happened to him was good, and it had a logical purpose that this world really would have, so we're bold enough not to worry about extraneous considerations and instead to be true to this world." That is very satisfying, at least to me.

You know, as a fan of worldbuilding stories like this, where the authors really take it seriously as far as thinking through what it would be like realistically, it always irks me when some try to add rules to it that by definition contradict the nature of that world. Especially when they by doing so may be blinding themselves to out-story value that if weighed fairly makes revival very enjoyable. This would be kind of like arguing that having masks with powers ruins Bionicle -- neverminding how fun it can be as original and cool; an innovative pathway to powers which by themselves aren't all that new, just because someone has a rule against powers in general.

Likewise, we have a highly original pathway to revival. Revival by itself isn't that new, but this is a highly innovative way to get there; a backup system turned sapient lifesaver -- which given all we know about Bionicle previously makes perfect sense in-world. We knew of the sapientification, and we knew the GBs designed all kinds of systems and safeguards. Putting these two and two together is pure logic, but it's thrilling because we didn't know if Bionicle had the guts to go there, and it brings a truly important and awe-inspiring, yet chillingly twisted answer to the Big mystery since 2001 -- the Red Star.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 23 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[Sir Flex Nardius]

I suppose it doesn’t ruin the story for me… but it does cheapen it slightly.

Yes there is power in resurrection but if anyone can be revived I feel like that power is less special.

Why did no characters ever reference or even think about coming back alive? Why would the Toa Nuva try to hunt down Karzani’s killer if he’d just be repurposed and brought back alive.

I can understand the duty thing for Toa, but for other races knowing that they could come back in my eyes would make them turn to crime, possibly that’s what happened with the Vortixx and other races?

I really want to know if they come back with all their memories or a mind wipe. If it’s a mind wipe then I’m a bit more okay with this… because then they wouldn’t remember dying and I think it would make more sense. Like possibly it’s a secret from the Matoran/Toa too? I mean it doesn’t seem like they actually know what the Red Star does.

So perhaps if they die and are brought back they mind is erased. It does have potential for bringing back some interesting dead characters, though Makuta and Matoro are out which they should be. If Matoro returned that would cheapen the ultimate sacrifice he did.

[fishers64]

I suppose it doesn't ruin the story for me. but it does cheapen it slightly.

Yes there is power in resurrection but if anyone can be revived I feel like that power is less special.

Why did no characters ever reference or even think about coming back alive? Why would the Toa Nuva try to hunt down Karzani's killer if he'd just be repurposed and brought back alive.

Because they didn't know that this revival system was in place. For all they knew, death was final.

I can understand the duty thing for Toa, but for other races knowing that they could come back in my eyes would make them turn to crime, possibly that's what happened with the Vortixx and other races?

I really want to know if they come back with all their memories or a mind wipe. If it's a mind wipe then I'm a bit more okay with this. because then they wouldn't remember dying and I think it would make more sense. Like possibly it's a secret from the Matoran/Toa too? I mean it doesn't seem like they actually know what the Red Star does.

So perhaps if they die and are brought back they mind is erased. It does have potential for bringing back some interesting dead characters, though Makuta and Matoro are out which they should be. If Matoro returned that would cheapen the ultimate sacrifice he did.

Once, again, the Vortixx didn't know about this.

We have it pretty much confirmed that's with all their memories. What's the point of bring the back if they didn't have all their memories? They could just make new Matoran/Toa/Skakdi/whatever.

The reason the mu inhabitants don't know about this is simple...nobody actually got revived for anyone to see.

***

By the way, is it possible that someone in the story might have used this reasoning that you all are using...thought the MU inhabitants would turn to crime and evil if they had no fear of death? Then went and broke something?

[Axonn's Fury]

Now, if you look at it from a personal level, this news seems almost a little disheartening...

But that's not what I'm responding to. There's a vast difference between seeming almost a little bad, and utter ruin. Especially since that seeming -- it seems to me -- is so much of a toss-up. You can pick a way to look at it that makes it feel that way, or you can pick a way that makes it utterly thrilling.

And I'd argue that picking the way that makes it feel disheartening would seem to be nearly the opposite of how we'd feel if we were in the character's proverbial foot armor, so to me it seems to be an intentional choice not to suspend disbelief, yanno? Put it this way, is it about revival in general, or about this specific handling of revival?

But okay, just hypothetically, if someone is wired to have the personal taste to dislike it a little, that makes sense. We all understand that a character permanently ending, like Matoro, has a certain value to it (although does every death need to be the same in that sense?), plot-wise. But to say it totally ruins things, that's what I'm questioning whether anyone really feels that way.

Ah, touche, Bonseiii. Your last point sways me slightly more to your side. I can't disagree that every death shouldn't be the same; if they were, none of them would be meaninful, right? It still seems as though 'death' in itself has become much less important, for whats the risk in any adventure, or any situation, if death is a temporary stop on your way to full revival?

As it has been previously stated, the sacrifices made by characters, most notably Matoro, seem slightly less meaningful in terms of what his actions meant, or for that matter, what any characters sacrifice and decisions could mean.

Why do you give Matoro as the example, considering he's confirmed gone for good? See, Greg is on-record as pointing this out with respect to Matoro. But why must all the other deaths try to copy the Matoro strategy?

How about variety? Can't that be just as fun? Arguably, more?

Because I can't recall any others off the top of my head. But, like I stated above, I do agree here.

And I have to agree, certain parts of the Bionicle story line now seem a little less meaningful to me, seeing as it wouldn't matter too much what would happen either way, just as long as the RS was there.

Granted, I say this with ill-knowledge of what exactly the RS is capable of.

Bolded for emphasis, because I think both these are actually false. We know enough to say it matters a ton. Think about it. You die. Then, yay, you're alive again! Yay... Then you look around... and there's these creepy beings who want to dissect you, there's some former villains (likely), and most of all, you're trapped there. You have to flee from the angry mob Mavrah mentioned, that Kopaka & Pohatu were being chased by, and you're stuck in a place you were never supposed to live.

Actually, that's not the most important point, the most important is that in the MU, you're not there, so whatever good you could have done is out. Just the same as if you'd died.

That matters a lot.

That's what I'm saying, it seems like people are forgetting these things.

You're saying it's almost like a 'respawn', where you appear dirrectly where you died? You kinda lost me with "trapped" part...

This, to me, is where its getting fuzzy. Because would you be revived directly where you died last? If so, how long does it actually take? It's a tad far-fetched to think your enemeys would sit around your body just waiting for you to respawn, just so they could kill you again, doesn't it?

But, I suppose most of everything you said does make clear sense to me. I guess I'm just a little confused on the details of the "what/where/how's" when it comes to the RS.


- Taka

[bonesiii]

I suppose it doesn’t ruin the story for me… but it does cheapen it slightly.

Yes there is power in resurrection but if anyone can be revived I feel like that power is less special.

Alright, thanks for clarifying. That helps. Basically you're saying, you want it to be used sparingly. And I agree.

I do get the sense that, considering all the breakdowns and the Survivor, almost Hunger Games concept of how things turned out there (apparently), that in effect it may be very sparing in terms of who is actually left like Mavrah now. I strongly suspect it's very few, that Greg isn't just bringing back everybody but Matoro.

Could be wrong, but yeah.

Why did no characters ever reference or even think about coming back alive?

Well, I think it's been broken for a long, long time. There's some question about it in some ancient cases, like Lesovikk's team, though, but apparently the Sendback stopped working shortly after that. There's been plenty of precedent for the ancient state of things in the MU to be largely forgotten or turned into legend that is only mentioned when it comes up in present plot, like the Visorak.

Also, I get the sense that at least part of this -- the bodies disappearing -- has been very common knowledge to the characters, but the writers had to be selective about showing it or even implying it to preserve the mystery. There were some old answers by Greg about Jaller's original body that implied this, and that future story would clear up why this was; that now seems to be clearly referring to the Red Star.

Why would the Toa Nuva try to hunt down Karzani’s killer if he’d just be repurposed and brought back alive.

By that time it's been so incredibly long since it worked there would be no reason to expect it to be thought of. But we're still not really sure it works at all outside the MU; there's some evidence both ways right now.

for other races knowing that they could come back in my eyes would make them turn to crime, possibly that’s what happened with the Vortixx and other races?

In very, very ancient times, perhaps -- likely not the Vortixx. Maybe the Barraki? But then, how could they know for sure that they wouldn't be ruled out for revival due to their rebellion? I don't quite buy the logic that anyone would feel totally confident they'd come back no matter what, yanno?

I really want to know if they come back with all their memories or a mind wipe. If it’s a mind wipe then I’m a bit more okay with this… because then they wouldn’t remember dying and I think it would make more sense. Like possibly it’s a secret from the Matoran/Toa too? I mean it doesn’t seem like they actually know what the Red Star does.

So perhaps if they die and are brought back they mind is erased. It does have potential for bringing back some interesting dead characters, though Makuta and Matoro are out which they should be. If Matoro returned that would cheapen the ultimate sacrifice he did.

Like fishers said, it seems almost certain they keep their memories; if not, you might as well just make new beings with the same inherent personalities. I gave a lot of reasoning about that earlier. And Jaller, Takanuva, and Matoro all came back with their memories intact.

That said, it would be cool to see this as the next thing Greg answers for sure.

I don't think a memory wipe is necessary to keep the secret specifically of the Red Star being connected to this. Kopaka and Pohatu had special inside knowledge that they were going to the Red Star by a method few else ever could; Gaardus's own teleportation power. Everybody else would merely know they wake up in corridors and stuff. Also, I don't think anyone besides maybe the Makuta, and the Mata Nui Island Matoran and the like (maybe the Order?) know about the Red Star to even wonder about it. Most of them think of the domes and islands and the two continents as their universe. They would likely assume it's some unknown cavern hidden somewhere on the continents or an obscure island or whatnot.

Ah, touche, Bonseiii. Your last point sways me slightly more to your side. I can't disagree that every death shouldn't be the same; if they were, none of them would be meaninful, right? It still seems as though 'death' in itself has become much less important, for whats the risk in any adventure, or any situation, if death is a temporary stop on your way to full revival?

Well, I was thinking about that while half-asleep last night, heh, and what strikes me is that I do not remember ever thinking of death as a major part of Bionicle in 2001. Bionicle revolutionized the genre of heroes battling bad guys with a much more systemized, "built-in" version of the traditional "superheroes don't kill" -- and in 2001, neither did the bad guys. Makuta infected, not killed. And he was to be the top antagonist.

Now later death was used by Makuta and others as well, and we learned logically why he couldn't kill in 2001; to keep the maintenance workers for the brain intact, but still, it established a feel. And that feel was continued in MOL -- the first one death for sure, and now confirmed the second death; Jaller and Takanuva, established that revival after death was possible.

Then, Bionicle ventured into new territory with Matoro; a crystal clearly permanant death (so much so that as soon as the RS reveal came out, we quickly pinned down logically that Matoro was almost certainly not revived, and that turned out to be correct). That was very good too. But I never really felt like death had "moved in" as anything essential in a permanent sense in Bionicle. That just wouldn't fit with how the world was established in 2001-2003.

And finally, lack of new chapters notwithstanding, we learn that Bionicle has entered yet new territory, with a vastly imaginative twist on revival.

In that process, does death's finality get knocked down a few notches? Well, yes and no; no in the sense that if you don't get revived here, it's still final, and you might get killed to be dissected etc. and that's it. But I think we all agree that yes, on the one hand finality is lessened.

Yet, what I'm saying it's vital not to miss is basically... maybe death deserved a knocking down? It wasn't really that interesting anymore. By comparison, you have a story where a character dies, and that's it. Story done. But now, so much more potential is opened up -- including, in a different light, the high likelihood of finality still! To me that's a far more interesting story than just "he's gone, she's gone, now he's gone" over and over, yanno?

You're saying it's almost like a 'respawn', where you appear dirrectly where you died? You kinda lost me with "trapped" part...

I may be mis-reading you, but it sounds like you may have actually missed a lot of it, including that the Sendback teleporter is broken now? I'd recommend re-reading the first post here, and the so-far chapters of The Powers That Be. What I mean by trapped should be clear in that context...

What you're saying may be accurate (as implied by Greg's answer about Jaller's revival in MOL) for how it was originally designed, but it's been so different for so long, to focus just on that to judge it wouldn't make sense.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 23 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[Axonn's Fury]

Ah, touche, Bonseiii. Your last point sways me slightly more to your side. I can't disagree that every death shouldn't be the same; if they were, none of them would be meaninful, right? It still seems as though 'death' in itself has become much less important, for whats the risk in any adventure, or any situation, if death is a temporary stop on your way to full revival?

Well, I was thinking about that while half-asleep last night, heh, and what strikes me is that I do not remember ever thinking of death as a major part of Bionicle in 2001. Bionicle revolutionized the genre of heroes battling bad guys with a much more systemized, "built-in" version of the traditional "superheroes don't kill" -- and in 2001, neither did the bad guys. Makuta infected, not killed. And he was to be the top antagonist.

Now later death was used by Makuta and others as well, and we learned logically why he couldn't kill in 2001; to keep the maintenance workers for the brain intact, but still, it established a feel. And that feel was continued in MOL -- the first one death for sure, and now confirmed the second death; Jaller and Takanuva, established that revival after death was possible.

Then, Bionicle ventured into new territory with Matoro; a crystal clearly permanant death (so much so that as soon as the RS reveal came out, we quickly pinned down logically that Matoro was almost certainly not revived, and that turned out to be correct). That was very good too. But I never really felt like death had "moved in" as anything essential in a permanent sense in Bionicle. That just wouldn't fit with how the world was established in 2001-2003.

And finally, lack of new chapters notwithstanding, we learn that Bionicle has entered yet new territory, with a vastly imaginative twist on revival.

In that process, does death's finality get knocked down a few notches? Well, yes and no; no in the sense that if you don't get revived here, it's still final, and you might get killed to be dissected etc. and that's it. But I think we all agree that yes, on the one hand finality is lessened.

Yet, what I'm saying it's vital not to miss is basically... maybe death deserved a knocking down? It wasn't really that interesting anymore. By comparison, you have a story where a character dies, and that's it. Story done. But now, so much more potential is opened up -- including, in a different light, the high likelihood of finality still! To me that's a far more interesting story than just "he's gone, she's gone, now he's gone" over and over, yanno?

I feel like what you just said should be pinned on the first post. Yes, I guess I didn't much think about the fact that death, in itself, is almost non-existent in Bionicle. Okay, that might be a bit extreme, but like you said, there really aren't that many perminent cases of death at all.

Yes, now I do see the increased potential of new story lines (heres to 2014!).

You're saying it's almost like a 'respawn', where you appear dirrectly where you died? You kinda lost me with "trapped" part...

I may be mis-reading you, but it sounds like you may have actually missed a lot of it, including that the Sendback teleporter is broken now? I'd recommend re-reading the first post here, and the so-far chapters of The Powers That Be. What I mean by trapped should be clear in that context...

What you're saying may be accurate (as implied by Greg's answer about Jaller's revival in MOL) for how it was originally designed, but it's been so different for so long, to focus just on that to judge it wouldn't make sense.

Aha, yes, I feel so smart now... Don't know how that slipped my eyes.

I can definitely see the negatives of being trapped there. Everything is finally starting to come together... But I'll definitely take a look at The Powers That Be.


- Taka

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

OK, so I finished Dark Destiny for probably the 10th time today, and I might have found something. When the Toa Inika first came out of their canisters, they lifted their weapons to the sky and fired off a bolt of lightning. When they did that, six stars were created and fell into orbit around the Red Star. Could that be relevant somehow?