27 replies to this topic

[Axonn's Fury]

Introduction
I have wondered this many-a-times, especially with each new Bionicle story, and lore that is created/thought up by BZP members. We all know that Bionicle is a ridiculously complex Universe (at least, the expanded Universe is, maybe not the main story), and that is what my topic is about.


Imagine if Bionicle, as wonderful as it is now, was NOT based on the set's that were released on an anual yearly-basis. Try to take this with a grain of salt, because I know you might think "Well, that wouldn't work, because they had to sell sets in order to maintain the series." Yes, I know. But just think for a minute how much more detailed, and complex the story could be. Imagine how different...

Ex. 1) I just posted in a topic about the "Nuva vs. Inika", where it was asked if the Nuva were, like we were told, stronger than the Inika, when the Inika seemed to do better? Well, if the story went by however Greg F wanted to write it, I'm pretty certain the Nuva would maintain the "Hero" title, and be the main focus, and the Inika would be a side story/smaller part of the story line.

Ex. 2) The ending. I feel strongly that the ending could have been better. Could have lasted longer. And if not based on sets, might have brought back old characters (I know they did with the Stars.. but come on), to either aid in battle, or be a part of the destruction of Teridax. (Don't have a clearer example on here, just thinking outside the box).


Hopefully I am making sense.


What do you think would have the most drastic change to the story, if Greg F didn't have to mold his story around the yearly sets?


- Taka


EDIT: If anyone has already posted something similar, I apologize, I have been on a 2-3 year hiatus from BZP.

Edited by Axonn's Fury, Oct 22 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Taipu1]

I would've thought adaptive armour would be wiped from the series completely. I suppose it was necessary in terms of flying and staying out of the swamp, but the armour was primarily to make an excuse for an appearance change.

[Cratak]

They probably would have made the Inika's Kanohi have the appearance of the traditional masks, instead of maing them look wierd and making them rubber. It was an obvious attempt at making the sets have a different "coolness" to them.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I think that there would've been more character development with more characters had the story not been second to the sets. I know that some characters, like Teridax and Vakama, had developed characters. But without the sets, there most likely would've been fewer characters, and thus more time to develop the ones that did come into the story.

[Makuta Matata]

I don't think the story would have been much of anything of importance at all without the sets.

Edited by Makuta Matata, Oct 22 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[Axonn's Fury]

I don't think the story would have been much of anything of importance at all without the sets.

I'm not saying without the sets period. I'm saying if the story was itself, and the sets were based on the story, instead of the other way around.


- Taka

[Makuta Matata]

I don't think the story would have been much of anything of importance at all without the sets.

I'm not saying without the sets period. I'm saying if the story was itself, and the sets were based on the story, instead of the other way around.


- Taka

Without the sets first, the concept of Bionicle would never have existed in the first place.

[Constructman: Black Knight]

*Clears throat*

Ever read scifi/fantasy books? Did George R.R. Martin need sets to write A Song of Ice and Fire

[Axonn's Fury]

I don't think the story would have been much of anything of importance at all without the sets.

I'm not saying without the sets period. I'm saying if the story was itself, and the sets were based on the story, instead of the other way around.


- Taka

Without the sets first, the concept of Bionicle would never have existed in the first place.

Yes, in all reality this is true, but I am insinuating the opposite: what if there was a story before the sets?


- Taka

Edited by Axonn's Fury, Oct 22 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[fishers64]

The Toa Mata and the '01 Matoran would have a much larger role. The story would center on them and their adventures and probably other characters would get sidelined. (That's how non-product based stories tend to go; centered around a single protagonist or protagonists. It's easier to write. )

I'm not sure how that would have affected the story, exactly. I think that might have shortened/broke up the Turaga's flashbacks, and the Inika would not have happened in 2006. And then they would have given the Toa a greater storyline role at the ending, because that type of series tends to bind readers to the protagonists even worse than Bionicle did.

And they might have thrown the whole 2006/07 storyline out or truncated it thanks to no Inika, and no pressure to drag it out.

Without the sets first, the concept of Bionicle would never have existed in the first place.

Without the need to sell sets, the concept of Bionicle would never have existed in the first place. Concept came before set design.

[~The 1st Shadow~]

I find such a possibility incredibly hard to imagine, but I suppose it might have done better, actually. Without the restraints of the sets and choices made by the story team, Greg could have taken it a lot farther and done so much more on his own. For one thing, we might have had less of other Toa, and just kept to the Nuva for the whole story. Fewer Matoran and other minor characters, probably, but I'd be okay with that.

[Sir Kohran]

It's difficult to imagine whether the story would've been more or less complex had it not revolved around the sets.

On the one hand, the story might've been less complex without six new characters being introduced every year and the cast subsequently accumulating. On the other hand, without sets to promote, Farshtey wouldn't have had to focus on whatever characters were sets at the time, therefore he would've written with much more scope, possibly making it all more complex.

I couldn't judge either way.

Edited by Sir Kohran, Oct 23 2012 - 05:20 AM.

[Makuta Matata]

I don't think the story would have been much of anything of importance at all without the sets.

I'm not saying without the sets period. I'm saying if the story was itself, and the sets were based on the story, instead of the other way around.


- Taka

Without the sets first, the concept of Bionicle would never have existed in the first place.

Yes, in all reality this is true, but I am insinuating the opposite: what if there was a story before the sets?


- Taka

The concept of a Bionicle world would never have been created without a concept for the sets first. I think how you should clarify this question is by saying that they have the prototypes for the Toa Mata and the general outline of the storyline, and they just want to the story to take off from there and they'll base the sets on the storyline. This way, the concept of Bionicle as a whole is created, because without the concept of Bionicle, they wouldn't have created the Bionicle story unlss they happene dto have a random stroke of genius one day. And even then, it wouldn't have been the Lego Group doing it because they don't just create stories randomly.

[Axonn's Fury]

^I think you might be missing the point of the topic. I understand without the original sets there would be no story. This topic is a "what if/what would change" if it had been the oposite, where there was a Bionicle Storyline, and LEGO made sets following the story. Much like they made sets after Lord of the Rings, and Star Wars, etc.

Making sense now? This isn't meant to be literal. I am simply wondering how the story might have changed, and what outcomes might have been born if the Storyline came first.


- Taka

[bonesiii]

I agree the final battle would have been much different. Hopefully the whole Golden Armor thing would have been avoided (although we beat up on this so often I'm beginning to wonder if we're being totally fair to it lol). The enemies could have been shown as a realistic "all-in" battle, rather than the unfortunate art in the Mata Nui Saga that, while really well made, makes it look like it's all just one type of Rahkshi, all the same color of Skrall, and all clones of Nektann. Plus, where are Gali, Onua, Kopaka... the Turaga... our favorite 2001 Matoran, etc.

As for Inika/Nuva, it's hard to get a perfect sense of it, because that was a year that setwise I don't really see any reason it had to be Inika to begin with. I feel like that decision (mistake or not) was made more from a story perspective. So not sure about that one.

I think a big thing would be that the Barraki and Piraka could have shone better with less of them. I felt it got a bit overwhelming with introducing six talking villains and trying to make them shine in just a year and then conveniently fall out of the plot. It left most of them seeming unimpressive, unfortunately, compared to villains like TSO or Makuta Teridax. Other than maybe Zaktan and Takadox.

[Extractor]

I agree with you that the story ending could've been a lot better if not relying on the sets.

[Axonn's Fury]

I agree the final battle would have been much different. Hopefully the whole Golden Armor thing would have been avoided (although we beat up on this so often I'm beginning to wonder if we're being totally fair to it lol). The enemies could have been shown as a realistic "all-in" battle, rather than the unfortunate art in the Mata Nui Saga that, while really well made, makes it look like it's all just one type of Rahkshi, all the same color of Skrall, and all clones of Nektann. Plus, where are Gali, Onua, Kopaka... the Turaga... our favorite 2001 Matoran, etc.

Nah, I don't think we're beating up on it too much. It was a weak point in the story, which is dissapointing, as it was the last part of the story...

But I agree, nonetheless, that the final battle really could have been improved. (But I feel like this is a tad obvious)

As for Inika/Nuva, it's hard to get a perfect sense of it, because that was a year that setwise I don't really see any reason it had to be Inika to begin with. I feel like that decision (mistake or not) was made more from a story perspective. So not sure about that one.

I still wonder why in the heck, the Inika were chosen as the new set lines. It leaves me confused every time. Granted, I am biased because the 2004 Story line is easily my favorite (excluding 01-02, that's just obvious lol), so the Inika already were less favorable in my book. The story should have just continued on with the Nuva as the protaginists, and set-wise, re-vamps would have done just fine, if not better than the Inika.

... In my opinion haha.

I think a big thing would be that the Barraki and Piraka could have shone better with less of them. I felt it got a bit overwhelming with introducing six talking villains and trying to make them shine in just a year and then conveniently fall out of the plot. It left most of them seeming unimpressive, unfortunately, compared to villains like TSO or Makuta Teridax. Other than maybe Zaktan and Takadox.

Ah, I couldn't agree more! Although the Piraka and Barraki are some of my favorite villians, it would have easily sufficed spreading them out, and making less sets. For example, Takadox, Pridak, and Ehlek were the three main Barraki (correct, yes? They seemed to hav ehad the biggest impact), so it would have been better, in my opinion, to make just those three, and give them larger parts, but at the same time looking at the bigger picture, smaller parts.

Same goes for the Piraka. They were supposed to be "all powerful", yet, their true power never really was shown properly because they had to be beaten down within the years story line.


- Taka

Edited by Axonn's Fury, Oct 24 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Dual Matrix]

Yes, also the Rahkshii are wierd too, The Toa Nuva could onely defait six of them when they worked together but later in the story Matoro(The kingdom) downed 3 of them in just a few seconds

[fishers64]

Yes, also the Rahkshii are wierd too, The Toa Nuva could onely defait six of them when they worked together but later in the story Matoro(The kingdom) downed 3 of them in just a few seconds

He had assistance from Tanma, Toa of Light, as well as Takanuva. Rahkshi don't like light that much.

[Dual Matrix]

Thats true but Makuta said during the battle of Bara Magna that Gali and Pohato already destroyed a whole legion of them

[fishers64]

Thats true but Makuta said during the battle of Bara Magna that Gali and Pohato already destroyed a whole legion of them

That's because that particular legion wasn't tightly controlled by the Makuta. During MoL, Makuta was mentally controlling those Rahkshi, so they were better skilled at attacking then the other Rahkshi who were just out of the protodermis pool and didn't know what they were doing.

[Dual Matrix]

Ah yes your right rahkshi are strong, but when controlled by a focused makuta they become killers

[that guy from that show]

Yes, also the Rahkshii are wierd too, The Toa Nuva could onely defait six of them when they worked together but later in the story Matoro(The kingdom) downed 3 of them in just a few seconds

The effect that is occurring here is known as the Conservation of Ninjutsu. I don't think I'm allowed to link to [a site] but I highly recommend you look it up. WARNING: Tropes are addicting, they will ruin your life.


The story would be darker and might include some more complex or violent components. Without being dictated by the market audience Greg would probably have been able to explore some more serious concepts. Fore example, he would have had more freedom to kill off irreverent characters that were only created because Lego needed a green set. I believe the ignition series is one of the story's highlights because of some of the more complex storytelling used. The 2005 and 2009 arcs would be significantly shortened or drooped all together however.

Edited by bonesiii, Oct 24 2012 - 06:31 PM.
Little tip. In the age of online searches, mentioning a site is breaking the same rule as linking to it. ;) -bones

[bonesiii]

Yes, also the Rahkshii are wierd too, The Toa Nuva could onely defait six of them when they worked together but later in the story Matoro(The kingdom) downed 3 of them in just a few seconds

But that was a story thing, not a set thing. It was decided in-story that only Rahkshi with specific missions (and I think the level of Kraata used has something to do with it, but I may be misremembering) are difficult to beat. Usually in the wild they are not so difficult because they're not so motivated. That had nothing to do with sets.

[darkslizer]

I think the biggest thing would be the lack of visualization to the readers. Say a Bionicle convention existed (even though I've never heard of one) and they had no sets to base the characters on. A description made by one of the conventioners may be completely different from another's. Although without sets the story could have breathed a lot more, there might be a serious lack of communication. Also, I wish they could have made more Makuta sets. Kojol in set form, SO COOL! I mean in 2006-2008. Not so much 2009-2010, for reasons I think many of us would understand.

I hope I interpreted the question right. If not, feel free to correct me.

[Podu]

Yes, also the Rahkshii are wierd too, The Toa Nuva could onely defait six of them when they worked together but later in the story Matoro(The kingdom) downed 3 of them in just a few seconds

But that was a story thing, not a set thing. It was decided in-story that only Rahkshi with specific missions (and I think the level of Kraata used has something to do with it, but I may be misremembering) are difficult to beat. Usually in the wild they are not so difficult because they're not so motivated. That had nothing to do with sets.

You're right. The 6 Rahkshi encountered by Nuva were carriers of the Shadow Kraata, which are the highest level of all Kraata, granting them power levels on par with Makuta. The others are probably level 1 or 2 thus making them easy-peasy to defeat.

IMO Tahu shouldn't be turned back into a Mata and with all the Golden Armour stuff. It is just... well, kinda redundant.

[CeeCee]

Well the Toa Mahri were meant to be in the 2008 story line, and them the Toa Nuva were meant to come back from like... 2009 to 2011, or something like that anyway

[Sir Kohran]

I think the biggest thing would be the lack of visualization to the readers. Say a Bionicle convention existed (even though I've never heard of one) and they had no sets to base the characters on. A description made by one of the conventioners may be completely different from another's.

A very good point. A picture (or set in this case) speaks a thousand words. I suspect one of the reasons literature relies on established creatures (elves, aliens, vampires, dragons, etc.) so much is because it is difficult for readers to visualise entirely new beings when there's no imagery to assist them.

IMO Tahu shouldn't be turned back into a Mata and with all the Golden Armour stuff. It is just... well, kinda redundant.

That was presumably done to justify the release of his Star set.