58 replies to this topic

[Black Six]

Dual Matrix started a ticket asking for a 'Thank You' system to be added to BZP.

Such a system would add a 'Thank You' button next to the quote button of each piece of content on the site. For example, if you posted a story and someone made a really thoughtful review, you could click the button to thank them. This is a benefit, since if you just posted saying, 'thanks,' that would be spam. On the flip-side, we want to encourage discussion and meaningful posts, which this discourages.

Our software has a couple of similar built-in systems, the two I would consider are 'Likes,' and 'Reputation.'

I'm going to assume you're all familiar with the concept of 'liking.' Someone posts a MOC, and you can click the like button to say you like it. Again, I feel this discourages actual discussion as some may just 'like' things instead of posting feedback. It also has the opportunity to turn into a popularity contest, or start situations such as, 'I'll like your topic if you like mine.'

The reputation system is similar to the like system, except that names are not associated with the votes (or likes). This adds some more anonymity and could possibly reduce some of the concerns above, but I feel they would still be present.

All in all, I personally would rather find ways to encourage discussion (and if you have ideas, start a Suggestion Ticket in the Tracker!) and I don't think this is a way to do it. Apparently some people feel differently though, and I am open to seeing what the membership thinks and to get additional feedback.

Let us know what you think!

[Dorek]

None of these things, for the reason you said. It only encourages the lazy to be lazier.

[Mesonak]

I'm with you on this subject. While such a system could have merits in its own right, I think the negatives far outweigh any good that could come from it.

-Mesonak

[Chols]

Kind of undecided at the moment, but I definitely don't support adding names. Not only do I feel that would create unnecessary clutter, but given the way I've seen people treat others who present an unpopular opinion, showing those who agree with the post could only make that worse.

One benefit I can see to a system like this would be that it would provide a contemporary alternative to "I agree" posts. I don't know if those are as much of a problem now as they were a few years ago, but it would still allow people to support an idea without feeling pressured to provide additional discussion.

[Sumiki]

I don't support any of these. While there are still posts that say "thanks" or "I agree," these are not nearly as common as they have been in the past, and not nearly to the level they would have to be at to make the pros of instituting such a system outweigh its inherent cons.

There's already very little true "discussion" throughout BZP, and this would only threaten to take away much, if not all, of the discussion. I see very little value in that.

I don't want BZP to evolve into a sound-bite-centric social networking site.

Edited by Sumiki, Nov 27 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[thebeggerpie]

I don't support any of these. While there are still posts that say "thanks" or "I agree," these are not nearly as common as they have been in the past, and not nearly to the level they would have to be at to make the pros of instituting such a system outweigh its inherent cons.

There's already very little true "discussion" throughout BZP, and this would only threaten to take away much, if not all, of the discussion. I see very little value in that.

I don't want BZP to evolve into a sound-bite-centric social networking site.

Spot on. I agree with Sumiki's thoughts on the subject.

[JrMasterModelBuilder]

I voted for the "Thanks" feature.

If someone put forth considerable effort to post something for which I was grateful, I would "Thank" their post. If they were so thorough that I could not add anything by posting, without that option, I would have two other options, neither of which are ideal. Post a "Thanks you!" post of some kind (spam-ish) or not show my appreciation at all (leaving them wondering if anyone cares).

I can't speak for how others would use it but personally I hope it would help reduce the close-to-pointless "I like it!" or "I agree!" posts. Ironically, I'm seeing posts like this in this thread, case in point:

I don't support any of these. While there are still posts that say "thanks" or "I agree," these are not nearly as common as they have been in the past, and not nearly to the level they would have to be at to make the pros of instituting such a system outweigh its inherent cons.

There's already very little true "discussion" throughout BZP, and this would only threaten to take away much, if not all, of the discussion. I see very little value in that.

I don't want BZP to evolve into a sound-bite-centric social networking site.

Spot on. I agree with Sumiki's thoughts on the subject.

No offence to anyone.

The arguments I'm seeing against such a feature seem to be so that it won't reduce any of the existing discussion. Personally, if there was something important someone had to say, I really don't see how having a "Thanks" will convince them not to post it. I prefer quality over quantity, I don't have a problem with a feature that reduces lower-quality content.

The popularity contest issue on the other hand, I could see being somewhat of a problem similar to the star rating system, so for this reason I would rather not see a reputation type of thing of user profiles. Even though I personally refuse to judge people by what others think of them it's somewhat depressing to see others doing so. Preferably, the "Thanks" feature would not be visible outside of the post that is thanked.

Edited by JrMasterModelBuilder, Nov 27 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Lyichir]

Like system. There are many times I wish BZP had such a system. It could potentially lead to people "liking" a topic instead of posting a reply in a small number of cases, but I feel it would more often lead to members who would not otherwise have anything meaningful to contribute being able to call attention to a post that they feel reflects their opinions.

A "Thank You" system would be more limited, in my opinion. Yes, "thanking" makes sense for if a poster asked a question and was answered. But what about a post that you find witty or clever even though it doesn't satisfy a real need? I would like a way to show appreciation for these sorts of posts, but thanks doesn't seem like the appropriate response.

Reputation points could potentially fill some of the niche of "likes", but I feel attribution is important. Could people abuse the system to demand likes? Yes, but I doubt that'd be a widespread problem among BZP's now more mature userbase. And being able to see which members had "liked" your post could lead to social connections that I think would be beneficial to the BZPower community. For instance, my blog rarely gets comments, so I don't know how many people read my entries, or which entries get a positive response. A "like" button could give me the kind of feedback I need to cultivate more of an audience, and judge what kind of audience individual entries are receiving.

[Sumiki]

Doesn't "following" a topic, blog, or blog entry sort of already cover some of this desire for a "like" or "thank" system, though? If someone likes a blog, they generally follow it. It's become a form of Internet etiquette, if you will. In the case of following, it's not just something that people do to say that they like something, but it gives them some practical benefits as well.

It might not eliminate discussion, but it's much easier to hit a button than type up a reply. I acknowledge the cogent arguments made by pro-like and pro-thank members, but at best, I just don't think putting a system such as those in place would help anything. The only discussion such a system would engender is the one that's going on in this topic right now. At worst, members would "like" posts they agree with and wouldn't bother to engage in actual discussion with other members.

[fishers64]

I don't want any of these systems. BZPower is not a popularity contest, and I feel that I have sufficient means to express my appreciation of other member's contributions.

In addition, I would be unlikely to remember that this system exists, which would breed accusations of ungratfulness on my part. I would rather not get into the "He likes him more than him because he likes more of his posts." nonsense, and I think such a system would conduct that sort of stuff.

[~Shockwave~]

I think that as a forum, t's best to make an actual reply. as a "like" doesn't help me write a better story or make a better moc.
and that's really the only purpose I see in this.

[Velox]

Is there any chance there could be a "like" system (the first option), but only for forums that are not in the Creative Outlet? That way, people couldn't just "like" a MOC, story, etc., but would have to comment. But for places like GD, if someone likes a post someone makes, they can "like" it. If that's possible, that's what I vote for.

[Black Six]

Is there any chance there could be a "like" system (the first option), but only for forums that are not in the Creative Outlet? That way, people couldn't just "like" a MOC, story, etc., but would have to comment. But for places like GD, if someone likes a post someone makes, they can "like" it. If that's possible, that's what I vote for.

No, not by default at least.

[Velox]

Well darn. There probably isn't an easy way to make a rule about it, either, for various reasons I can think of. I like the idea of being able to show support for someone else's post (specifically, arguments that you may or may not have anything to add to, but you just want to show how you agree), but I'd definitely dislike this for creative topics, whether it be stories, art, MOCs, etc. So...in that case I guess I would lean more toward not being in favor of any of these systems, but I wouldn't be all that disappointed if one was implemented, either. Not really that big of a deal either way, to me.

[xccj]

When this was brought up, I thought of a post where the topic starter could simply thank all the commenters without adding another post. Although this "discourages" discussion a bit, it would be an easy way for people to see that the topic starter has acknowledged their post, which is something I do look for in topics I've posted in. It would be nice, even if it seems a little trivial. But I would also limit it to just the topic starter, since there's not much point in a random user "thanking" another random user's post in a creative topic like that. In that case, it would seem more like the "like" system which could easily turn into a competition.

Just my thoughts, but I'd be cool with whatever is implemented.

[Grantaire]

I dunno. I really will be fine either way. One good compromise would be to allow it in creative forums for the topic starter only, but...

Yeah, I'm fine either way here, even though I voted 1.

Edited by Zarayna, Nov 28 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Lyichir]

Doesn't "following" a topic, blog, or blog entry sort of already cover some of this desire for a "like" or "thank" system, though? If someone likes a blog, they generally follow it. It's become a form of Internet etiquette, if you will. In the case of following, it's not just something that people do to say that they like something, but it gives them some practical benefits as well.

It might not eliminate discussion, but it's much easier to hit a button than type up a reply. I acknowledge the cogent arguments made by pro-like and pro-thank members, but at best, I just don't think putting a system such as those in place would help anything. The only discussion such a system would engender is the one that's going on in this topic right now. At worst, members would "like" posts they agree with and wouldn't bother to engage in actual discussion with other members.

Following those things can be great in some instances. But just because a member likes a statement or post doesn't necessarily mean they want notifications every time someone replies to it. And there are probably members like me who never follow anything, since they check back on those sections of the site without needing notifications reminding them to do so. A like button would be a way to express approval or agreement without having to make any long-term commitment to that post or topic.

Also, another person brought up the "quality versus quantity" argument, and I sort of agree with that. If a member had something worthwhile to contribute to the discussion, a like button wouldn't prevent them from doing so. But if someone else had already made the same point and they had nothing more to add, a like button would provide that member with a way of showing other members that they shared that sentiment. So long as no extra incentive was provided for accruing multiple likes, I think such a system would help far more than it would hurt.

[Applejack]

Positive Rep system is best system.

But I'd settle for a like system.

[Kakaru]

I'm good with nothing. As practically everyone else has said, a like system stifles actual discussion, and most of the time if someone simply wants to agree with a post, they will find a way to add more to their post. That's sort of how proper discussion works in real life too.

And as far as a positive rating system, we already have the stars on a member's profile (which we're aware does absolutely nothing and nobody cares about) and the proto system, which is a far more tangible system with actual guidelines and junk that's sanctioned and maintained by the staff.

So that's a big no on both counts. I've seen other forums that have implemented the feature and it does exactly what we're worried about happening here. Members start spamming topics with snappy replies and cat pictures to get more "likes" or a more positive reputation. I think a genuine positive reputation culled by your words and actions in the minds of members is worth far more than a bunch of likes on your picture of a cat.

[Bfahome]

If someone put forth considerable effort to post something for which I was grateful, I would "Thank" their post. If they were so thorough that I could not add anything by posting, without that option, I would have two other options, neither of which are ideal. Post a "Thanks you!" post of some kind (spam-ish) or not show my appreciation at all (leaving them wondering if anyone cares).

If someone put that much effort into something, you could say a bit more than "thank you". Like "Thanks for putting so much effort into this, it's really helpful."

A "thank you" button, on the other hand, would leave the thanks rather ambiguous. It could range from "thank you for commenting on my MOC" to "thank you for digging through a mass of ten-year-old files to find a specific one for me".

And I'd rather have "I agree" posts than an "I agree" button. At least with posts you can ask why.

I voted none of the features. It's time for websites to stop trying to be like every other website. Forums are for talking.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

I chose 'I don't want any of these systems' because I think it would hinder discussions in the topics, as others have already stated.

[Booker DeWitt]

I 'like' this idea.

Just kidding, it's an awful idea, burn whoever thought of it.

- Tilius

[ChocolateFrogs]

I don't want any of these. I would rather encourage discussion, even if it is only a few words saying why you like something. For just posting a few words could inspire even larger discussions by other members or that same member down the road.

-CF

[Avohkah Tamer]

After giving it some thought, I voted for a "Like" system with visible names, but only if members' total Likes count is not visible.

Initially I would have voted for none of the above, for the same concerns everyone expressed. However, while a Like system has the potential to reduce the overall number of posts made on the forum, I don't believe it would necessarily discourage quality discussion. As Lyichir and others put it, a Like button wouldn't actually prevent someone from contributing to the discussion if they have something to add.

As for the "popularity contest" concern; if it's possible to implement a Like system without any sort of visible total "Like" count on members' profiles, that would essentially eliminate that possibility. There really shouldn't be any way to clearly tell which members receive the most Likes.

(On a side note, that's also why the Reputation system would be a bad idea for BZP. +Rep count is good for larger forums that need to know which members are trustworthy, but that wouldn't serve any purpose here other than member popularity.)

With visible names on Liked posts, it also adds an accountability aspect. By visibly Liking a post, you're making a statement that you personally agree with/approve of the post. It would help to discourage members from using Likes frivolously or on rule-breaking content. While anonymity is a good thing on much of the internet, it would probably only be detrimental here on BZP.

All of that said, adding a system like this would only be a minor benefit, and I wouldn't be heartbroken if it's not implemented. As Black Six said, what we really need more is a suggestion for a system or incentive to help increase forum activity and quality discussion.

~ (^{A V}_T^O_A^H_M^K_E^A_R^H)

[LewaLew]

Status quo, baby.

[bonesiii]

I'm not really sure, but I would like somehow to know from more people if they like stuff, even if they didn't have anything specific to add. I can see the discouraging posting point, though. I voted Like, but I won't mind if it isn't done.

[Dual Matrix]

I 'like' this idea.

Just kidding, it's an awful idea, burn whoever thought of it.

- Tilius

*Burnes to death get resurrected by the red star and burns you*

I don't really know now with all these pro and contra arguments I don't mind if it won't be accepted althoug I would like the thank you system

[JrMasterModelBuilder]

Doesn't "following" a topic, blog, or blog entry sort of already cover some of this desire for a "like" or "thank" system, though? If someone likes a blog, they generally follow it. It's become a form of Internet etiquette, if you will. In the case of following, it's not just something that people do to say that they like something, but it gives them some practical benefits as well.

Following a topic doesn't address specific posts in the topic. Also following a blog is like (excude the pun) friending someone on a social networking site. It's a general "like" but doesn't give any specifics on what posts are appreciated more than others, information the author would probably take to write better.

So that's a big no on both counts. I've seen other forums that have implemented the feature and it does exactly what we're worried about happening here. Members start spamming topics with snappy replies and cat pictures to get more "likes" or a more positive reputation. I think a genuine positive reputation culled by your words and actions in the minds of members is worth far more than a bunch of likes on your picture of a cat.

That hasn't been my experience but I imagine it varies by sites. Also, I doubt that will get you many likes in this manner if the star rating system is any indication.

If someone put forth considerable effort to post something for which I was grateful, I would "Thank" their post. If they were so thorough that I could not add anything by posting, without that option, I would have two other options, neither of which are ideal. Post a "Thanks you!" post of some kind (spam-ish) or not show my appreciation at all (leaving them wondering if anyone cares).

If someone put that much effort into something, you could say a bit more than "thank you". Like "Thanks for putting so much effort into this, it's really helpful."

I was under the impression such posts were considered spam-ish. If this is not the case, it would be nice to know.

Edited by JrMasterModelBuilder, Nov 28 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[Bfahome]

If someone put forth considerable effort to post something for which I was grateful, I would "Thank" their post. If they were so thorough that I could not add anything by posting, without that option, I would have two other options, neither of which are ideal. Post a "Thanks you!" post of some kind (spam-ish) or not show my appreciation at all (leaving them wondering if anyone cares).

If someone put that much effort into something, you could say a bit more than "thank you". Like "Thanks for putting so much effort into this, it's really helpful."

I was under the impression such posts were considered spam-ish. If this is not the case, it would be nice to know.

Not necessarily. BBC has a rule against thanks-only posts because you don't need to thank everyone who's commented, but if someone fixes some big glitch in a downloadable game I wouldn't say replying with something like "wow, thanks for doing that!" is spam (unless it gets out of hand).

[Hahli Husky]

I voted for a likes system, because there's been so many times where I thought a few posts in a topic or blog entry were great, but I'm not sure what to do other than quote them and basically say "These posts make me happy!", which I don't think would add to discussion and it just makes me feel stupid. I can't always express why I enjoy something without making a spam-like post. So usually I end up not posting at all. I know a few other members who go through this, as well. And maybe we are just lazy (I disagree with this), but sometimes trying to enlarge and dress-up what's basically a simple agreement makes me feel really awkward. To me, "likes" say "I read this and really enjoyed it", and to me it's just as good as a comment that says the same thing, versus not getting any comment at all.

In the end, though, whether or not such a system is added isn't a big deal to me. Discussing stuff at length in forums has never really been my thing, so to me it's just normal. But if there was a system like this, I would definitely use it.

Edited by Hahli Husky, Nov 29 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Booker DeWitt]

Actually, this would be a good idea if we also had a 'dislike' feature, and if you get a certain number of dislikes your post gets deleted. It's the fairest way to have a reasonable discussion. Though that'd be the end of my blog, I suppose.

- Tilius

[Chols]

Actually, this would be a good idea if we also had a 'dislike' feature, and if you get a certain number of dislikes your post gets deleted. It's the fairest way to have a reasonable discussion. Though that'd be the end of my blog, I suppose.

- Tilius

Nooooo no no no no

BZPower is moderated well enough to not need suppression of posts by negative votes. Those kinds of things only really work on sites without vigilant moderation.

[Toa Nidhiki05]

Out of the three options, reputation points. 'Like' buttons and thank you buttons amont to spam (although the latter is preferrable). Reputation points, on the other hand, provide an anonymous kudos that rewards only the original poster - the 'liker' gets no visible benefit. That way, if you post a MoC or something that gets 3 posts but gets 20 points, you know you got views and that people liked it even if they didn't post. No change is urgently needed, but the reputation points are the best option.

-TN05

Edited by Toa Nidhiki05, Nov 28 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[Hahli Husky]

Actually, this would be a good idea if we also had a 'dislike' feature, and if you get a certain number of dislikes your post gets deleted. It's the fairest way to have a reasonable discussion. Though that'd be the end of my blog, I suppose.

- Tilius

I laughed embarrassingly loud when I read this post.

[Lyichir]

Out of the three options, reputation points. 'Like' buttons and thank you buttons amont to spam (although the latter is preferrable). Reputation points, on the other hand, provide an anonymous kudos that rewards only the original poster - the 'liker' gets no visible benefit. That way, if you post a MoC or something that gets 3 posts but gets 20 points, you know you got views and that people liked it even if they didn't post. No change is urgently needed, but the reputation points are the best option.

-TN05

I disagree. The point of "likes" or similar features is not to "reward" anyone. I would love such a system, but the BZP rules would need to be amended to avoid things like petitioning for likes. Likes shouldn't serve as a status symbol, but rather as a method for members to evaluate how much their posts were appreciated, and by whom.

One possibility I just considered could work nicely: what if likes on a post were only visible to the poster? That would unfortunately eliminate the benefit of drawing attention to well-thought-out posts, which I feel makes it a less-than-ideal solution, but it would provide members with feedback on their posts, and address concerns that such a system would inevitably turn posting into a popularity contest.

[Meiko]

I think a like system would be good, because it would give an idea of who appreciated what the person had to say, and how helpful it was all around. It could give a good basis as to what kind of posts people like to see in particular topics.

Question: Would a notification be able to be set to notify you "so and so liked your post"?

[bonesiii]

If I'm doing my math right, all the votes currently for some type of system come to 39, with 39 votes against any system. Seems we're evenly split on this. Which probably amounts to a no.

Ideally, a like option would not be a discouragement to post, but rather a discouragement to spam. Are we all capable of that being true, though? I don't know. And yet, there really isn't much time needed to spend "liking" most things with a quick non-spam post that mentions some detail about it. Maybe the route to go is simply a Reference Desk topic/post / line in an existing post pointing this out -- basically that even a short post that does give feedback specifically about parts of a creative work, or a thoughtful post in the other forums, etc. is not spam. In other words, literally encourage more posts that we staff don't have to go around deleting.

Just some thunks.

[Jean Valjean]

I joined BZPower because  was proud that people could articulate their preferences and their "likes" here through discussion instead of gimmicks.  At heart, these forums are about discussion, and intelligent, thoughtful discussion.  BZP has, over numerous times, made it clear that it's not within its nature to encourage lazy behavior and gimmicks.  For this reason, this polling form doesn't count the posts toward someone's word count since someone can essentially vote and then just vocalize their vote with a one-word post.  We're above that, and BZP doesn't encourage that.  We also have rules in the art forums and in the library that posts commenting on any user's works have to be specific and actually say something about what you like of the piece at hand.  I don't care if a "like" button wouldn't contribute to someone's word count: it's against the spirit of BZP, and we've gone without one for over a decade and we most certainly don't need one now.

 

24601

[Half a Cup of EW]

I feel as though getting any of these gimmicks would reduce the amount of discussion that goes on: instead of commenting, people can just "like" or "rep" someone else's post. The whole point of these forums is to interact with each other, but a "like" button and the equivalents are basically giving people a reason not to post if what they would have said has been expressed b someone else already, or if everything they were going to say can be said with the click of a button.

 

Personally, as a writer and an artist, I enjoy receiving comments, even if the comments themselves don't have any particular merit. It means someone found my work engaging enough to be worth their time spent writing a comment. A "like" button would only further erode the possibility of having one's work commented on, which is definitely not something the Library needs, for example.

 

tl;dr I vote no.

[Aanchir: Rachira of Time]

I voted "like". And I think that all the claims that such a feature would discourage discussion are really poorly thought-out. There are already tons of incentives for posting in a topic-- keeping a topic you enjoy alive, increasing your own post count, or just genuinely expressing something that cannot be articulated with generic positive feedback. A "like" feature wouldn't eliminate or replace any of those incentives. What it WOULD do is increase the feedback people get, since not everyone who visits a topic has anything much to offer but generic approval.

You could argue that a person could try to articulate a deeper opinion than "I like this", in a post, but guess what? If that's not their genuine opinion, if they genuinely have nothing to contribute than offering approval, then such posts are just useless, insincere space-filler that serves no purpose but to boost their own post count and keep topics alive even if nobody has any useful opinions to contribute. If I see a post I consider particularly eloquent or witty, but I have nothing to say to it other than "I agree", it's not worth quoting the post just to say that, even if I can fill out the post with enough rambling so that it doesn't immediately resemble spam.

Another advantage for a "likes" system-- it would offer members a way to provide feedback on dead topics without a PM. So if you get linked to a cool MOC, but the topic is dead? "Like" it and the person posting it will get positive feedback which everyone will be able to see.

Reputation points would be a poor substitute because they would just turn posting into a popularity contest. "Thank you" would essentially be just a way to redirect spam posts so that they only spam the individual members who are being thanked. On another site I use where it is possible to "favorite" works of art you like, it is often common policy to thank a person on their profile if they favorite your work. However, I have learned over time that if a person has a bunch of "thank you" posts on their profile and no "you're welcome" posts, then that means that the flood of "thank you" posts might very easily be more of a burden to them than a gratification, and it's perhaps better not to say anything.