58 replies to this topic

[toa kopaka4372]

I was wondering exactly how Metru Nui's government operated. For example, was Turaga Dume elected to his position, or did the ruler before him assign it to him? When it comes to matters of importance, does the Turaga just pass laws without the population's consent or is there a vote of some kind. Is there any kind of committee that serves as the Turaga's 'Cabinet'? 

 

If Metru Nui's leader had the authority to do what he wants, when he wants with no resistance, he almost seems like a dictator...

[Baron Von Nebula]

There very well may have been government besides Dume, but we only really saw Metru Nui when Teridax was masquerading as Dume.  Presumably, Teridax expanded his powers significantly.  I'm not sure if the real Dume would have billboards of himself put on the Knowledge Towers. 

[toa kopaka4372]

There very well may have been government besides Dume, but we only really saw Metru Nui when Teridax was masquerading as Dume.  Presumably, Teridax expanded his powers significantly.  I'm not sure if the real Dume would have billboards of himself put on the Knowledge Towers. 

 

Well, as Dume, Teridax closed the Sea Gates, sent out almost all the Toa Mangai on missions they didn't return from, and had the Vahki prepare spheres all without being questioned, which implies it's the norm for Dume to do what he wants.

 

I guess Teridax could have just manipulated everyone around if there really was other government, but we haven't seen anything so far. I think I'll ask Erebus to ask Greg about this...

[The Iron Toa]

Well, I'm not sure how the society had developed by the end. But it would make sense if the original plans for Metru Nui were to have it be run by a dictatorship. After all, the inhabitants weren't meant to be free-willed beings.

[toa kopaka4372]

Well, I'm not sure how the society had developed by the end. But it would make sense if the original plans for Metru Nui were to have it be run by a dictatorship. After all, the inhabitants weren't meant to be free-willed beings.

That could work, except that they ended up being free-willed beings, and we have evidence it was all the way near the beginning of the MU's creation that they did. I'd have thought they would've rebelled if they were run by a dictatorship for thousands of years. 

[Content with Life]

I suppose originally it was just a Turaga ruling over everybody, and handing leadership to another Turaga when the time came. Then the Metru Turaga came and it pretty became some sort of Council of Elders.

 

Less rule and more supervise, to me.

[Dual Matrix]

Not If the dictator was a good leader.

[fishers64]

Not If the dictator was a good leader.

 

Good point. Dume basically believed what his people believed. Sort of like the relationship between Napoleon and the French people, minus charisma because the Matoran were robots. And when they gained freewill, tradition would set in.  

 

If Dume did what was good for the Matoran, then they would keep him around. Everyone knocks the Vahki, but Dume's effort to curb lawbreaking Matoran was probably approved of by the hard workers who didn't want their stuff stolen or their lives disrupted. 

[Norik The Student]

Well, Dume was appointed by the previous Turaga(check Bionicle:World).
Since Turaga rule Matoran like supervisors, where the Matoran work and the Turaga do the bureaucratic decisions. And since he was appointed, it means he proved to be a benevolent guy. Then Teridax cashed in on the Matoran's struts in Dume.

[bonesiii]

Dume was essentially a "general in chief" -- sometimes called a benevolent dictator, although that makes the mistake of assuming he's telling everybody in minute detail how to do their jobs. Basically it's a simple chain of command type arrangement similar to a military but one that functions in peacetime as well -- Dume has the right to give whatever orders he deems fit, and your duty is to obey, but most of the time he leaves the little choices up to the people who are like the "boots on the ground."

 

In other words, he's a tribal elder, which is what Turaga basically means -- but in his case, elder over a whole city.

 

Note Dume's total authority was taken for granted in early 2006 when he was able to ban anyone from leaving. Of course, chains of command can be broken by disobedience too, as Jaller's group did. Also, at that time it was a bit different as the other Turaga basically formed a lower-ranking council of advisors to Dume. But that basic authority, with the enforcement of the Vahki, was in place for a long time, with beneficial intent when it was the real Dume.

[The Iron Toa]

He banned anyone from leaving Metru Nui when they returned to it? I remember the Turaga wanted to keep Mata Nui's imminent death secret, but not that part.

[fishers64]

He banned anyone from leaving Metru Nui when they returned to it? I remember the Turaga wanted to keep Mata Nui's imminent death secret, but not that part.

I can't find that on BS01...

[ZippyWharrgarbl]

 

He banned anyone from leaving Metru Nui when they returned to it? I remember the Turaga wanted to keep Mata Nui's imminent death secret, but not that part.

I can't find that on BS01...

 

 

It's in 'Island of Doom', I believe. The first of the Bionicle Legends series. Dume forbade anyone from going after the Toa Nuva; specifically, Takanuva, who wanted to go along and help them. He also did not want to cause a mass panic, by the sounds of it, and told the Turaga not to tell the Matoran what was happening. The Matoran, however, knew something was up, and were not being told what it was. They started a strike of sorts, with Jaller leading the rebellion.

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl, Dec 03 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[The Iron Toa]

Oh, now that you mention it I remember he didn't want them to follow the Toa Nuva. But I didn't know that meant they weren't to leave Metru Nui at all.

[fishers64]

It's not directly story confirmed, but it does make sense as a logical conclusion, that a trade caravan would be discouraged from leaving the island. Every hand was needed with the rebuilding, the outside world was pretty dangerous with no Toa escorts available, and Dume was paranoid.

[Takhamavahu]

Dume is an unelected ruler, who has been at his position for thousands of years with no known term limit. Dume announces the news himself, with apparently no other journalist media present. He also has direct control over what goes in the archives and what doesn't, as well as what is closed to pubic access. The Matorans' employement opportunities are devided based on gender and colour. Though money is used, everyone happens to be more or less equally wealthy. The most valued workers, like Vakama, are the ones who are fiercely loyal to the system and long to reconstruct it even after it crumbled because its infrastructure was breached almost effortlessly by one person. Everyone shares the same belief in the same great spirit and dedicate their lives to his will. Anyone who is abnormal (like Takua) is looked down on and frequently arrested. Those, like Ehrye, who aspire to move up to better careers are unable to for thousands of years. The society has existed in this format since the end of the civil war, and has (as far as we've ever been shown in the story) gone, at least publicly, unchallenged.

 

Either Metru Nui is a place where, conveniently, everyone beleives the same things and have dreams and aspirations which agree with the mooth-running society, or Metru-Nui's government has a darker side than we've been shown.

That said, Bionicle is a story for kids. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the solution was, in fact, that everything's hunkey-dory and everyone agrees on what's right and wrong. If it just so happens that every Ta-Matoran's dream is to be a crafter, and every Onu-Matoran loves being an archivist, that's because it's a kids' story which isn't about political strife. It's about good guys fighting bad guys with mask powers.
After all, Metru Nui has no military. It hasn't needed one. Almost every threat it has faced has been beaten by a Team of Toa, a Vakhi squad, or a rag-tag group of unlikely heroes.

Contrary to the film, Legends of Metru Nui, there are only about a thousand permanent residents in Metru Nui. They probably don't need a structured government the way a country of millions does. As long as Dume listens to people's greivances and resolves conflicts with sporting events, everyone (with their conveniently idealogical agreement) should be happy.

If you asked Greg, I bet he'd answer something like that. That the story is for kids, and it's not about matoran politics, and you should just enjoy it for being a fun adventure.

 

Unfortunately, the everything-just-happens-to-work-smoothly theory leaves the Bionicle story as a whole, with that major weakness. For us, the fandom, who take it all way too seriously, because we're geeks and we like to, this theory strains our suspension of disbelief. In real life, people don't agree. In real life, people have different values, different beleifs, different lifestyles, different ideals. In real life, no society could possibly work the way Metru-Nui does, and so we are always left with the conundrum that either Metru Nui is a politically extremist totalitarian regime and no one seems to mind, or that the Bionicle story takes place in a universe that just doesn't have the depth to cover much more than action, adventure and cool superpowers, that good and evil are divided by mickey mouse morals, and that the only people who aren't completly content with their role in society happen to be the ones with monstrous features and violent personalities.

[The Iron Toa]

Dume is an unelected ruler, who has been at his position for thousands of years with no known term limit. Dume announces the news himself, with apparently no other journalist media present. He also has direct control over what goes in the archives and what doesn't, as well as what is closed to pubic access. The Matorans' employement opportunities are devided based on gender and colour. Though money is used, everyone happens to be more or less equally wealthy. The most valued workers, like Vakama, are the ones who are fiercely loyal to the system and long to reconstruct it even after it crumbled because its infrastructure was breached almost effortlessly by one person. Everyone shares the same belief in the same great spirit and dedicate their lives to his will. Anyone who is abnormal (like Takua) is looked down on and frequently arrested. Those, like Ehrye, who aspire to move up to better careers are unable to for thousands of years. The society has existed in this format since the end of the civil war, and has (as far as we've ever been shown in the story) gone, at least publicly, unchallenged.

 

Either Metru Nui is a place where, conveniently, everyone beleives the same things and have dreams and aspirations which agree with the mooth-running society, or Metru-Nui's government has a darker side than we've been shown.

I laughed out loud at how darkly - and yet accurately - you described the society of Metru Nui. And there were things such as smuggling rings, so I guess there was a dark side to Metru Nui.

 the only people who aren't completly content with their role in society happen to be the ones with monstrous features and violent personalities.

What about Takua?

[Baron Von Nebula]

I guess you could explain the similarities among Matoran as being a product of their old AI.

 

I think, after the Archives Massacre, the Metru Nui Matoran don't have very high expectations of leaders trying to resolve conflicts in general 

[bonesiii]

Oh, now that you mention it I remember he didn't want them to follow the Toa Nuva. But I didn't know that meant they weren't to leave Metru Nui at all.

Well, maybe not, but I'm not aware of any other reason anyone would be leaving. I suppose they might want to try to reestablish ancient trade routes, but they had virtually nothing operating to produce anything to trade with yet.

 

 

Dume is an unelected ruler

Well, let's be cautious there. We don't know exactly the process used to get him in office. I doubt there were formal elections of the kind we think of here on Earth, but my guess is that Matoran "naturally" want to have a Turaga, and there may have been a voice vote type thing to accept him since he was available. After all, it's established there was enough space for the entire population in the seats at the Coliseum; it would be fairly efficient to do that. So no reason to assume there wasn't.

 

More likely he was well-liked and nearly everyone agreed to accept him as leader.

 

 

 

Dume announces the news himself, with apparently no other journalist media present. He also has direct control over what goes in the archives and what doesn't, as well as what is closed to pubic access.

 

Again, not sure any of these are quite accurate. Dume does probably announce his own decisions, but there's no need for a middleman there. Most 'news' would probably be things others would see, and there may be others who handle that more directly. Though I'm sure there would be times when he would be in charge of deciding what needs to be classified, like if a DH was spotted in the city for example and he thought it wouldn't help in that case to tell everyone lest there be a panic.

 

Also, the Archivists decide for the most part what goes in the archives, which is essentially "a little bit of everything under the suns".

 

And practicality generally decides what is closed to public access; whatever is too dangerous, though I don't doubt Dume had the right to say so for less obvious things.

 

 

 

 

Contrary to the film, Legends of Metru Nui, there are only about a thousand permanent residents in Metru Nui. They probably don't need a structured government the way a country of millions does. As long as Dume listens to people's greivances and resolves conflicts with sporting events, everyone (with their conveniently idealogical agreement) should be happy.

If you asked Greg, I bet he'd answer something like that. That the story is for kids, and it's not about matoran politics, and you should just enjoy it for being a fun adventure.

 

Unfortunately, the everything-just-happens-to-work-smoothly theory leaves the Bionicle story as a whole, with that major weakness. For us, the fandom, who take it all way too seriously, because we're geeks and we like to, this theory strains our suspension of disbelief.

 

Actually, Greg usually doesn't use that kind of argument for much if anything besides physics technicalities (where I do think he overuses it a bit).

 

And yeah, it's basically a small town, and the needs are clear -- keep the giant mechanized skyscrapers and stuff operating. They all have clear jobs, and they learn how to do them themselves. Dume rarely needs to do much except in the highly unusual incidents we tend to see in stories, like DH invasions. But in any highly industrialized economy, it's also natural there will be less satisfied people who will fall to temptation to engage in illegal actions like smuggling, too, hence the Vahki. So it's not like they're all perfectly happy. The "A BUSY MATORAN IS A HAPPY MATORAN" kind of thing portrayed in 2004 isn't just a TeriDume thing; that was around on Dume's watch.

 

But basically, if they don't keep working like that, their universe collapses, so they really have no choice -- in other words, it's not Dume's fault really.

 

 

 

In real life, people don't agree. In real life, people have different values, different beleifs, different lifestyles, different ideals. In real life, no society could possibly work the way Metru-Nui does

 

Well... to some extent that's accurate, but mainly because we don't live so long, and don't live inside a universe absolutely dependent on our active maintenance. If we just stop doing anything at all and shrivel away, for the most part the rest of nature keeps on chugging along just fine (though wild, "it's a jungle out there" kind of nature rather than well-managed, but life does survive). So it's not exactly a fair comparison in the sense of alleging unrealism in Bionicle. Also, we aren't former AIs with inherent programmed specific jobs either.

 

And more to the point, in Metru Nui, people disagree, have different ideals, lifestyles, etc. as shown by the criminals (from Dume's POV ), the uncontent, etc. so not really sure what would cause suspension of disbelief there as far as the canon as established and commented on by Greg...

[fishers64]

Dume is an unelected ruler, who has been at his position for thousands of years with no known term limit. Dume announces the news himself, with apparently no other journalist media present. He also has direct control over what goes in the archives and what doesn't, as well as what is closed to pubic access. The Matorans' employement opportunities are devided based on gender and colour. Though money is used, everyone happens to be more or less equally wealthy.

# quote end
First off, this is based on human standards for totalitarianism. It is not exactly applicable to biomechanical beings in a giant robot. For one thing, the money is a non-vital component of their existence, and was probably handed in rough proportion to how much they worked, and since Matoran are forced to work a certain number of hours by the Vahki anyway, they had a certain amount of money that was about the same.

For another, the small size of the city and the technology in it (Vahki) probably eliminated the need for media coverage.

Third, somebody would have to decide the Archives bit, and probably someone who knew how dangerous such Rahi could be, where to put them, etc. Dume may have had some knowledge about this from fighting them as a Toa, and he probably would have consulted the Chief Archivist in dealing with this.

Fourth, the Great Beings designed each type of Matoran for specific jobs. They would have done those jobs whether Dume was the leader or somebody else was. In fact, they did do those jobs under a different Turaga-leader; we just don't know who he is. Mata Nui is the real leader; Dume is just his proxy.
 

The most valued workers, like Vakama, are the ones who are fiercely loyal to the system and long to reconstruct it even after it crumbled because its infrastructure was breached almost effortlessly by one person.

 
# quote end
That person was a colossal monster and mastermind with 42 kraata powers. And breaching the system did get him protocaged and then killed. I would not call that "effortlessly."

Further, Vakama and the others did not try to rebuild that infrastructure (immediately)- they ran off to Mata Nui Island. Vakama came back to Metru Nui just to shove the whole thing in Makuta's face and show him that he couldn't take Metru Nui away from him. And also because Mata Nui needed them there - they probably figured that out during the Matoran civil war.
 

Everyone shares the same belief in the same great spirit and dedicate their lives to his will.

 
# quote end

Correct. I agree with this.
 
 

Anyone who is abnormal (like Takua) is looked down on and frequently arrested.

# quote end
 
Frequently arrested? More like dragged back to his workplace after taking an unscheduled vacation.
 
 

Those, like Ehrye, who aspire to move up to better careers are unable to for thousands of years.

# quote end
 
Ehrye's lack of promotion is due his lack of responsibility, not opportunities for advancement. Vakama moved up from a toolmaker to mask maker. Nuju was mentored by Ihu.
 
 

The society has existed in this format since the end of the civil war, and has (as far as we've ever been shown in the story) gone, at least publicly, unchallenged.
 
Either Metru Nui is a place where, conveniently, everyone believes the same things and have dreams and aspirations which agree with the mooth-running society, or Metru-Nui's government has a darker side than we've been shown.
 
# quote end

 

Everyone shares the same belief in the same great spirit and dedicate their lives to his will.

 
# quote end

I'm going with the former. Although, as the Iron Toa said, there were things like smuggling rings.
 

That said, Bionicle is a story for kids. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the solution was, in fact, that everything's hunkey-dory and everyone agrees on what's right and wrong. If it just so happens that every Ta-Matoran's dream is to be a crafter, and every Onu-Matoran loves being an archivist, that's because it's a kids' story which isn't about political strife. It's about good guys fighting bad guys with mask powers.

# quote end

That might be part of the reason, but I think the main reason is that
 

Everyone shares the same belief in the same great spirit and dedicate their lives to his will.

#quote end

because he is responsible for their very existence. They will do anything to help him because if he crashes, they crash. If he burns, they burn. It's like on a spaceship. It is extremely unlikely that anyone will question the captain of the ship when you are about to be burned up by the Horsehead Nebula. Or any other time, for that matter. Disobeying orders hurts everyone on the ship, including you. Obviously there were a couple objecters due to the mysterious nature of the thing, but for the most part everyone did what they were told.
 
 

After all, Metru Nui has no military. It hasn't needed one. Almost every threat it has faced has been beaten by a Team of Toa, a Vakhi squad, or a rag-tag group of unlikely heroes.

# quote end

I agree with this. But it doesn't trivialize the threats the Matoran faced (which I think you may be saying). After all, there were eleven toa on call to defeat the Kanohi Dragon, a few hundred for the Dark Hunters - and Toa are a force to be reckoned with.

Vahki, okay. But they weren't really all that helpful - they got smashed frequently.

And the next time I run into an unquestionably evil bad guy, I want to hire the "rag-tag group of unlikely heroes." In lots of stories I read, they always seem to come out on top.
 
 

Contrary to the film, Legends of Metru Nui, there are only about a thousand permanent residents in Metru Nui. They probably don't need a structured government the way a country of millions does. As long as Dume listens to people's greivances and resolves conflicts with sporting events, everyone (with their conveniently idealogical agreement) should be happy.

# quote end
Resolves conflicts with sporting events? I thought only Makuta did that.
 
 

If you asked Greg, I bet he'd answer something like that. That the story is for kids, and it's not about matoran politics, and you should just enjoy it for being a fun adventure.

# quote end
I agree with this.
 
 

Unfortunately, the everything-just-happens-to-work-smoothly theory leaves the Bionicle story as a whole, with that major weakness. For us, the fandom, who take it all way too seriously, because we're geeks and we like to, this theory strains our suspension of disbelief. In real life, people don't agree. In real life, people have different values, different beleifs, different lifestyles, different ideals. In real life, no society could possibly work the way Metru-Nui does, and so we are always left with the conundrum that either Metru Nui is a politically extremist totalitarian regime and no one seems to mind, or that the Bionicle story takes place in a universe that just doesn't have the depth to cover much more than action, adventure and cool superpowers, that good and evil are divided by mickey mouse morals, and that the only people who aren't completely content with their role in society happen to be the ones with monstrous features and violent personalities.

# quote end
And this is not real life.

At least, not real life as "people who live on a big planet who have been separated for thousands of years and developed independent cultures" type of real life.

More like the type of people who wake up on a spaceship with no memories. They learn that their spaceship (the Mata Nui robot) is controlled by Mata Nui. Serve him or die. In fact, they learn that they have been doing this unwittingly for years. That Matoran who don't do their jobs are sent to Karzanhi. They don't have a choice. They do their work.

I submit that was the way it once was in our world too, once. We were once under kings and queens and all that. The people under them didn't have a choice. They did their work. It's only later did people realize that they had choices, whether to stay in England or sail to America, whether to fight in a war or stay home, whether to elect leaders or have a king.

But there was no way out of the robot - even if there was, they didn't even know there was one. They didn't know that there was a whole world out there. They even tried not doing their work once - the Matoran civil war. Mata Nui fell ill, and Makuta Teridax's painful punishment for the combatants probably convinced them - work or get hurt. Mata Nui wasn't putting up with slackers. He's the real government.

Now, on SM, the Matoran have choices. But in Metru Nui, no. We are so used to having choices that we forget that we didn't have them at one point. And we still won't have them in the future when we're on a spaceship. (Oddly enough, people like that stuff... )

Edited by fishers64, Dec 04 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Sir Kohran]

The "A BUSY MATORAN IS A HAPPY MATORAN" kind of thing portrayed in 2004 isn't just a TeriDume thing; that was around on Dume's watch.

(end quote)

 

I suspect what's at the root of this topic is that what you mention is 2004's portrayal of Metru Nui as a grim and oppressive society, presumably as foreshadowing for the malicious figure who was then ruling them.

 

Problem is, when Metru Nui was resettled no effort was made in the Bionicle media in early 2006 to portray Metru Nui as a now more pleasant place, because the story was concerned with other locations by that point. So the (once intentional) social flaws of Metru Nui were left uncorrected and open to criticism.

 

That person was a colossal monster and mastermind with 42 kraata powers. And breaching the system did get him protocaged and then killed. I would not call that "effortlessly."

(end quote)

 

That occurred only after he revealed himself and embarked on the next stage of his plan. Had Makuta continued to keep his posing as Dume a secret, no-one would've taken action against him or even known. So I think it was done almost (if not completely) effortlessly.

 

And what do you mean by killed? Wasn't Makuta just imprisoned for a while then released in Web of Shadows?

 

Vakama and the others did not try to rebuild that infrastructure (immediately)- they ran off to Mata Nui Island.

(end quote)

 

Wasn't this done simply for the Matoran's safety? With Lhikan dead, the Vahki no longer controllable, and the two suns no longer lighting the city, it was surely smarter to start again somewhere else.

 

The Metru also lost their Toa status in the process of reawakening the Matoran, though it seems the decision to move had already been made by then.

[Toa Nidhiki05]

Prior to the Great Catacylsm, he basically served as a benevolent dictator. Dictator has a negative connotation but Dume was by all indications a good dictator who cared for the well-being of Metru Nui. As bones said, he most likely let the civilian leaders or citizens have a good deal of control instead of micro-managing everything. After the Matoran returned, he retained his power but the Turaga from Mata Nui essentially became advisors for their districts; I would assume they had a fair bit of control over their districts as well.

 

-TN05

[bonesiii]

I didn't bother to say this in my previous post 'cuz I figured it was too obvious, but just FTR, Makuta could have "effortlessly" taken over pretty much any form of government, so that really isn't relevant. He didn't really care what kind of government was in place there; he cared about blending into his role of "whoever is leader of this place now". And if there had been no clear leader, he would have had a "character" he was playing have some emergency to face that would force him to such a role, etc.

 

Is 2006 Metru Nui a more pleasant place? Well, there's no more Vahki (far as I recall... there were some murderous broken ones but I presume they'd all be destroyed by that time). But it's still mostly in ruins (though Dume, the Rahaga, and Keetongu may have done some repairs). So not sure "pleasant" was possible. I'd say more like, in a state of highly urgent emergency, even though the Matoran didn't fully understand why. So likely they were forced to work even harder than back when they were just maintaining a functioning system.

 

But they probably understood in greater numbers if not universally (other than Ahkmou) that this was necessary to awaken the Great Spirit, and wanted that, since they'd lived a worse life under the threat of the Dark Time for a thousand years; basically they want their protector back. So in this case the "force" was from their own resolve, rather than a somewhat reluctant, grudging submission to "truant officers" (the Vahki).

 

Also, Dume seems to have basically given up at that point, so I doubt he was going around screaming "work harder!" at them. They probably set their own pace by how badly they wanted Mata Nui awake. So in the sense of the satisfaction of willingly working hard for a goal you clearly want, it may have been more "pleasant." But not from the "I wish I didn't have to work" standpoint.

 

Anywho, though, you do raise a good point that the story should have portrayed the new society more clearly.

 

 

By "killed", fishers would probably be referring to when Makuta was killed. In 2010. Which did happen as a result of breaching "the system", though not Metru Nui's government per se.

[fishers64]

The "A BUSY MATORAN IS A HAPPY MATORAN" kind of thing portrayed in 2004 isn't just a TeriDume thing; that was around on Dume's watch.

(end quote)
 
I suspect what's at the root of this topic is that what you mention is 2004's portrayal of Metru Nui as a grim and oppressive society, presumably as foreshadowing for the malicious figure who was then ruling them.
 
Problem is, when Metru Nui was resettled no effort was made in the Bionicle media in early 2006 to portray Metru Nui as a now more pleasant place, because the story was concerned with other locations by that point. So the (once intentional) social flaws of Metru Nui were left uncorrected and open to criticism.

#quote end

This brings up a pretty good point, actually - we never really actually saw how Metru Nui was like under Dume (much). Makuta as Dume =/= Dume.

That person was a colossal monster and mastermind with 42 kraata powers. And breaching the system did get him protocaged and then killed. I would not call that "effortlessly."

(end quote)
 
That occurred only after he revealed himself and embarked on the next stage of his plan. Had Makuta continued to keep his posing as Dume a secret, no-one would've taken action against him or even known. So I think it was done almost (if not completely) effortlessly.
 
And what do you mean by killed? Wasn't Makuta just imprisoned for a while then released in Web of Shadows?

I didn't bother to say this in my previous post 'cuz I figured it was too obvious, but just FTR, Makuta could have "effortlessly" taken over pretty much any form of government, so that really isn't relevant. He didn't really care what kind of government was in place there; he cared about blending into his role of "whoever is leader of this place now". And if there had been no clear leader, he would have had a "character" he was playing have some emergency to face that would force him to such a role, etc.
 
 [...]
 
By "killed", fishers would probably be referring to when Makuta was killed. In 2010. Which did happen as a result of breaching "the system", though not Metru Nui's government per se.

#quote end

Thank You bones. Actually, I was referring to Teridax's "death" by door smash in 2003. I did think of that idea, though.

And that's basically what I was getting at. The problem wasn't the Metru Nui government system, because a Matoran or Dark Hunter probably could not have breached it. The problem was one Makuta Teridax.

 

Vakama and the others did not try to rebuild that infrastructure (immediately)- they ran off to Mata Nui Island.

(end quote)
 
Wasn't this done simply for the Matoran's safety? With Lhikan dead, the Vahki no longer controllable, and the two suns no longer lighting the city, it was surely smarter to start again somewhere else.
 
The Metru also lost their Toa status in the process of reawakening the Matoran, though it seems the decision to move had already been made by then.

#quote end

Yes, it was. It's just further evidence of my original point - that the "best workers", the Toa of Metru Nui, did not allow their love of their city to taint their good judgement.

[toa kopaka4372]

After some research, I discovered Dume would hold meetings with Matoran to see what they wanted, so it seems he was really in touch with his people, and thus a good ruler. More evidence for his popularity and reputation could be found in Vakama's comment in Time Trap: "The real Dume would never stand for this."  So there was no need for revolution under Dume.

 

I assume if he ever went bad, there would be a system in place to remove him. 

[bonesiii]

After some research, I discovered Dume would hold meetings with Matoran to see what they wanted, so it seems he was really in touch with his people, and thus a good ruler. More evidence for his popularity and reputation could be found in Vakama's comment in Time Trap: "The real Dume would never stand for this."  So there was no need for revolution under Dume.

 

I assume if he ever went bad, there would be a system in place to remove him. 

Well, there probably isn't some legal system, but Matoran who object could contact Toa (if none were in the city) and request they investigate, and possibly depose him if needed. Turaga themselves do not have much power. Even a group of mere Matoran alone could probably depose one if enough of their brethren agreed, though the Vahki would have made that difficult pre-2005 in Metru Nui. Still, it would have been possible since Dume was just a Turaga, and his specific Noble mask power isn't really great for defense. A sneak attack arresting him and taking over the Vahki could do it, even by mere Matoran.

 

Which incidentally is probably another intentional "checks and balances" system, partly the GBs' doing in designing the Matoran formcycle the way they did; Matoran are physically stronger than Turaga, and Turaga lack the elemental power to do much beyond their Noble mask. A well-aimed Kanoka shot to the face for example could de-mask a tyrant Turaga.

 

Thus, there's more basic motivation for any Turaga, Dume included, to be good to his people. Plus there's the whole "Toa are good guys" thing, which would usually ensure Turaga are honestly good people.

[Toa Nidhiki05]

 

After some research, I discovered Dume would hold meetings with Matoran to see what they wanted, so it seems he was really in touch with his people, and thus a good ruler. More evidence for his popularity and reputation could be found in Vakama's comment in Time Trap: "The real Dume would never stand for this."  So there was no need for revolution under Dume.

 

I assume if he ever went bad, there would be a system in place to remove him. 

Well, there probably isn't some legal system, but Matoran who object could contact Toa (if none were in the city) and request they investigate, and possibly depose him if needed. Turaga themselves do not have much power. Even a group of mere Matoran alone could probably depose one if enough of their brethren agreed, though the Vahki would have made that difficult pre-2005 in Metru Nui. Still, it would have been possible since Dume was just a Turaga, and his specific Noble mask power isn't really great for defense. A sneak attack arresting him and taking over the Vahki could do it, even by mere Matoran.

 

Which incidentally is probably another intentional "checks and balances" system, partly the GBs' doing in designing the Matoran formcycle the way they did; Matoran are physically stronger than Turaga, and Turaga lack the elemental power to do much beyond their Noble mask. A well-aimed Kanoka shot to the face for example could de-mask a tyrant Turaga.

 

Thus, there's more basic motivation for any Turaga, Dume included, to be good to his people. Plus there's the whole "Toa are good guys" thing, which would usually ensure Turaga are honestly good people.

 

 

Actually, Turaga are slightly stronger than Matoran physically and have a bit more elemental power than Av-Matoran do (and that was enough to at least sting Makuta); apparently they use this power somewhat frequently outside of media, since Greg told me at one point the Turaga Mata used their elemental powers against the Rahi when needed. The main weakness Turaga seem to have is that they seem to walk with an elderly pace and elderly people, even strong ones, have a hard time using that strength without harming themselves. We all remember Vakama's best defense against the Rahkshi was to bonk it on the head with his staff, which didn't turn out to be very helpful. So unless the Turaga has a Kakama, it would be very hard for him to stand against even a half-dozen armed Matoran.

 

But really, there's a reason the Matoran trusted Dume enough to jump into strange pod - he is a good leader who, while perhaps not as intimately involved in the Matoran lives as the Turaga Mata, cared for his citizens and did his best to lead them properly.

 

-TN05

Edited by Toa Nidhiki05, Dec 04 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[toa kopaka4372]

 

 

After some research, I discovered Dume would hold meetings with Matoran to see what they wanted, so it seems he was really in touch with his people, and thus a good ruler. More evidence for his popularity and reputation could be found in Vakama's comment in Time Trap: "The real Dume would never stand for this."  So there was no need for revolution under Dume.

 

I assume if he ever went bad, there would be a system in place to remove him. 

Well, there probably isn't some legal system, but Matoran who object could contact Toa (if none were in the city) and request they investigate, and possibly depose him if needed. Turaga themselves do not have much power. Even a group of mere Matoran alone could probably depose one if enough of their brethren agreed, though the Vahki would have made that difficult pre-2005 in Metru Nui. Still, it would have been possible since Dume was just a Turaga, and his specific Noble mask power isn't really great for defense. A sneak attack arresting him and taking over the Vahki could do it, even by mere Matoran.

 

Which incidentally is probably another intentional "checks and balances" system, partly the GBs' doing in designing the Matoran formcycle the way they did; Matoran are physically stronger than Turaga, and Turaga lack the elemental power to do much beyond their Noble mask. A well-aimed Kanoka shot to the face for example could de-mask a tyrant Turaga.

 

Thus, there's more basic motivation for any Turaga, Dume included, to be good to his people. Plus there's the whole "Toa are good guys" thing, which would usually ensure Turaga are honestly good people.

 

 

Actually, Turaga are slightly stronger than Matoran physically and have a bit more elemental power than Av-Matoran do (and that was enough to at least sting Makuta); apparently they use this power somewhat frequently outside of media, since Greg told me at one point the Turaga Mata used their elemental powers against the Rahi when needed. The main weakness Turaga seem to have is that they seem to walk with an elderly pace and elderly people, even strong ones, have a hard time using that strength without harming themselves. We all remember Vakama's best defense against the Rahkshi was to bonk it on the head with his staff, which didn't turn out to be very helpful. So unless the Turaga has a Kakama, it would be very hard for him to stand against even a half-dozen armed Matoran.

 

But really, there's a reason the Matoran trusted Dume enough to jump into strange pod - he is a good leader who, while perhaps not as intimately involved in the Matoran lives as the Turaga Mata, cared for his citizens and did his best to lead them properly.

 

-TN05

 

 

Not everyone trusted Dume completely though. I remember some Matoran being anxious/hesitant about the pods mentioned in the LoMN novelization. But I think the majority did, which was why he remained leader.

 

Just wanted to add that the Matoran of Metru Nui most certainly had different beliefs, ideas, and desires, otherwise there wouldn't have been crime rings, a need for Vahki, or an entire civil war. It's just that they're stuck in their jobs more or less due to their duty to Mata Nui. Seeing as most seemed to believe in Mata Nui (not at all far fetched as in our world there are millons who believe the same things) and honor him, so they felt their duty take precedence, plus the promise of a haven in Artakha was a huge motivator. Of course, the biggest one is the fact that their lives depend on it. Also, some Matoran found ways to do what they want instead of the typical jobs; an example is Macku, who instead of becoming a student started a canoe business of her own. Also, Matoran from other districts sometimes worked in Metru Nui, so...

 

Let's not forget that the Matoran, once they got to Mata Nui, did things they wanted; an example is Golyo, a Po-Matoran who lived  by himself on the outskirts of Po-Koro, leading a quiet existence herding Mahi. So no, I think it's clear not every Matoran in Metru Nui aspired to have the top job in each of their districts. 

[Master Inika]

I recognize Metru Nui as, essentially, a benevolent dictatorship.

 

The picture I got of life under Dume was highly regimented, but enjoyable. As long as you do your work, you have plenty of free time to pursue hobbies you might have. Matoran, as a whole, also seem to have the two ideas mixed in a little, such as Nuhrii decorating his house with Kanoka-Kanohi tablets. Even though Nuhrii was the second-best mask-maker, Mystery of Metru Nui and Vakama's CD seemed to indicate this was something every Ta-Matoran did. So, the Matoran took greater pride in their work than a human would. I speculate that every day for a Matoran would be 12 hours of sleep, 12 hours of work, and 12 hours of free time (keeping in mind that the MU has a 36-hour day). There would be no equivalent to weekends or holiday breaks, except on Naming Day. But, since virtually every Matoran sees it as his duty and an honor to work, no one wants anything like that.

 

I imagine there's some kind of electoral system, but only Turaga are eligible to run (the prevailing wisdom in the MU seems to be, "Hey, look, a Turaga! Let's listen to him."). It's unclear if Dume only wins by default, as the only Turaga. It's also possible that elections are only held when conditions are very poor in Metru Nui (such as civil war). Maybe the Turaga during the Matoran Civil War lost an election to Dume? The Turaga (elected or otherwise) does seem to posses near-dictatorial powers. As a political position, the Turaga of Metru Nui seems to a democratic dictator. In any case, Dume seems to truly act in the Matoran's best interests.

 

Since a Turaga was once a Toa who achieved his destiny, it's not a wild assumption that all Turaga have wisdom and are loyal to Mata Nui and the Three Virtues, since it would be difficult to become a Turaga otherwise. Nonetheless, the mentality has its flaws (like the crazy Turaga who sent all the Matoran to Karzahni).

[Sir Kohran]

The picture I got of life under Dume was highly regimented, but enjoyable.

 

Would you enjoy living under an ideology of 'obedience is happiness' and 'thoughts can be dangerous'?

[Master Inika]

 

The picture I got of life under Dume was highly regimented, but enjoyable.

 

 

Would you enjoy living under an ideology of 'obedience is happiness' and 'thoughts can be dangerous'?

I probably would if I knew not working would result in the universe dying. Besides, Dume had to be working in the Matoran's interests, or else they would have revolted or something.

[fishers64]

The picture I got of life under Dume was highly regimented, but enjoyable.

 
Would you enjoy living under an ideology of 'obedience is happiness' and 'thoughts can be dangerous'?

#quote end

No.

However, I don't think Dume's ideology was that way. I think it was more like "do this for the good of Mata Nui."

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

The picture I got of life under Dume was highly regimented, but enjoyable.

 

 

Would you enjoy living under an ideology of 'obedience is happiness' and 'thoughts can be dangerous'?

I probably would if I knew not working would result in the universe dying. Besides, Dume had to be working in the Matoran's interests, or else they would have revolted or something.

 

(end quote)

 

But the whole point of the Vahki was to prevent revolts or any sort of dissent from Dume's programme.

[Constructman: Black Knight]

Because Dume's programme was keeping Mata Nui alive, something all matoran wanted.

[bonesiii]

The question, "would you enjoy" doesn't have to have a single universal answer. It's quite possible for them to enjoy their time off, and somewhat enjoy their jobs, but wish they didn't have to work so rigidly. You get that even in the free-est of the free real-world lands where people still have to work more than they may wish and not always at their dream job just to survive.

 

Also, if a lot of Matoran actually buy into that "thoughts can be dangerous" kind of thing, they very well may enjoy it more, to some extent. "Ignorance is bliss", as the saying goes, and that, too, happens a lot in real life. There are powerful societal movements that stifle research into opposing viewpoints, and at least some of the people under them seem somewhat content being wilfully ignorant (but let's not give examples ). However, I do think that more knowledgeable, free-thinking (and right-conclusion-reaching ) people will be more deeply happy and the same would probably be true of Matoran.

[fishers64]

I don't think we had the "thought can be dangerous" thing until Makuta showed up. I mean, there were plenty of innovations and advancement in Metru Nui, and I don't think that would have happened in a society that was afraid to think for themselves. 

[bonesiii]

I don't think we had the "thought can be dangerous" thing until Makuta showed up. I mean, there were plenty of innovations and advancement in Metru Nui, and I don't think that would have happened in a society that was afraid to think for themselves. 

Well, I was kinda thinking the same thing, but some problems. First, we have no direct evidence that it hadn't been around for a while. There wasn't a "Dume wouldn't do this" reaction to it unlike some things Makuta clearly did. Also, having a motto and actually stifling thought are two very different things. Another possibility would be that even if their minds had become turned off of late, those innovations could have come before that. And another, that it refers to certain kinds of thoughts but thought for other things is encouraged, something I call limited channel intelligence, allowing good performance at things that require intelligence in some categories but seemingly contradictory lack of it in others.

[toa kopaka4372]

 

I don't think we had the "thought can be dangerous" thing until Makuta showed up. I mean, there were plenty of innovations and advancement in Metru Nui, and I don't think that would have happened in a society that was afraid to think for themselves. 

Well, I was kinda thinking the same thing, but some problems. First, we have no direct evidence that it hadn't been around for a while. There wasn't a "Dume wouldn't do this" reaction to it unlike some things Makuta clearly did. Also, having a motto and actually stifling thought are two very different things. Another possibility would be that even if their minds had become turned off of late, those innovations could have come before that. And another, that it refers to certain kinds of thoughts but thought for other things is encouraged, something I call limited channel intelligence, allowing good performance at things that require intelligence in some categories but seemingly contradictory lack of it in others.

 

Do we even know if those Vahki promos are canon? They seemed to only serve the purpose of making the Vahki look evil.

[Sir Kohran]

First, we have no direct evidence that it hadn't been around for a while. There wasn't a "Dume wouldn't do this" reaction to it unlike some things Makuta clearly did.

(end quote)

 

This comes back to us never getting a good look at Metru Nui before or after Makuta's takeover.

 

Also, having a motto and actually stifling thought are two very different things.

(end quote)

 

But the Vahki's powers allow them to literally stifle thoughts in the Matoran's brains. The reason the motto is sinister is because it's genuinely true.

[bonesiii]

Well, I thought they were confirmed canon, but it's been a long time since 2004 so I'll go with caution and say maybe I'm remembering wrong.