19 replies to this topic

[Toa Flamedramon]

I had a random thought on how a Bionicle character would create diamond. Since diamond is made with heat and pressure, I figured a Toa of Fire wearing a Kanohi Garai could take a lump of charcoal and heat it while increasing the gravity around it to quickly and easily create diamond. What do you think?

[Taipu1]

Sounds perfectly possible.  The Garai wouldn't necessarily be needed either, heat alone can be used to increase pressure, although it would have to be pretty intense and controlled heat.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

It might work better if it was a Toa of Plasma with a Garai. Plasma is hotter than fire.

[Katuko]

Most natural diamonds are formed at high temperature and pressure at depths of 140 to 190 kilometers (87 to 120 mi) in the Earth's mantle. Carbon-containing minerals provide the carbon source, and the growth occurs over periods from 1 billion to 3.3 billion years

^From Wikipedia.

I am not sure how a bunch of Toa would affect the formation compared to the Earth's mantle, but I suspect that it would still take a long time to create diamond, possibly so long that none of them have realized they could. I don't know how practical it would be and what advantages that might be gotten from having diamond available to a being in BIONICLE, but it's an interesting thought.

[Cratak]

Making Diamonds: HTPT There are currently two ways to make a diamond in a lab. The first process is known as the High Pressure-High Temperature method, or HTPT. It simulates the forces that create natural diamonds on Earth. In most cases, a tiny diamond grain is placed into a specially designed machine. This machine then applies thousands of pounds of pressure to the small diamond, while simultaneously raising the temperature to around 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit. The diamond is then grown, one atom at a time, over the course of about four days. -eHow

 

 

 

Or they could make it like this in a few days, with something that magnifies their element like Takanuva's Power Lance.

Edited by Cratak, Jan 07 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Dual Matrix]

Yes but since they don't know diamonds (how could they possibly form in the MU) wich crazy toa would spend 4 days using all his powers to heat and pressure a small piece of carbon?

[Katuko]

Protodermis has many forms, including hard crystal, like for example a Toa Seal. Roodaka was able to scratch off part of the proto-prison that the Toa Metru made, so it might be that a Toa who have seen a seal in action would feel inclined to study its properties. I'm thinking a former Onu- or Ko-Matoran here.

I don't know how much any Matoran would know about how crystal forms, but perhaps if they do they might at some time experiment with making them artificially.

[Vox The Shadow of Reality]

i don't see why this could not be done. or it could even be a joint effort between a toa of fire and a toa of gravity. be kinda of neat to see toa weapons made of crystals or a shield of crystals.

[bonesiii]

Diamond is technically Stone, so I would think a Toa of Stone could just materialize one. And if this is protodiamond we're talking about, who knows if that even exists? But if it's possible, and a Toa of Stone was informed of the possibility, why not?

 

Also, it doesn't feel right to me to say that the Kanohi Garai could do this. It's just a mask. I don't get the sense that it can make that strong of an effect. But maybe. There's always actual Toa of Gravity instead, though.

 

Also, I'd think a Toa of Plasma, not just Fire. Superheat, not just heat.

[Chro]

I am not sure how a bunch of Toa would affect the formation compared to the Earth's mantle, but I suspect that it would still take a long time to create diamond, possibly so long that none of them have realized they could. I don't know how practical it would be and what advantages that might be gotten from having diamond available to a being in BIONICLE, but it's an interesting thought.

It would take a long time, you say?

...

And this is where we start talking about the Vahi.

[Meta-Mind]

I am not sure how a bunch of Toa would affect the formation compared to the Earth's mantle, but I suspect that it would still take a long time to create diamond, possibly so long that none of them have realized they could. I don't know how practical it would be and what advantages that might be gotten from having diamond available to a being in BIONICLE, but it's an interesting thought.

Add one Toa of Plasma and one Toa of Gravity. Problem solved.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

Diamond is technically Stone, so I would think a Toa of Stone could just materialize one. And if this is protodiamond we're talking about, who knows if that even exists? But if it's possible, and a Toa of Stone was informed of the possibility, why not?

 

Also, it doesn't feel right to me to say that the Kanohi Garai could do this. It's just a mask. I don't get the sense that it can make that strong of an effect. But maybe. There's always actual Toa of Gravity instead, though.

 

Also, I'd think a Toa of Plasma, not just Fire. Superheat, not just heat.

I was thinking Toa of Plasma and Ba-Toa, but I figured I should simplify it w/Garai.

[bonesiii]

It needn't take a long time; they can be made synthetically nowadays, though we have difficulty with the heat and pressure parts of it. It probably -would- take some time by any indirect method, though. (But not a Toa of Stone. )

[Roki]

As far as earth diamond is concerned, due to the lack of carbon in the MU, I doubt they'ed be able to create any. However, as other people have said, a Diamond like form or allotrope of Protodermis could potentially be possible with the powers mentioned. Now that I think of it, Could all of the varying forms of protodermis that we have seen so far just be differing allotropes of molecules of the same element? This would tie some of the powers of the various creatures within the MU. Simple manipulations such as melting Crystalline protodermis into liquid protodermis becomes manipulation of valence bonds of other occurring allotropes. The creation and manipulation of individual elements can be likened to granted abilities controlling their own specific allotrope found in the substances they are interacting with. If the GB's discovered the ~element~ Protodermis and all of it's various allotropes, why wouldn't they build an entire giant robot ecosystem out of it?  

 

My apologies for getting a tad off topic.

 

-Roki

[bonesiii]

So you're talking about like the fictional idea of supermassive atomic elements? Or something more like a quasimatter form that wouldn't fit on our atomic chart?

 

Regardless, both have been ruled out by Greg's confirmation that it's a molecule, though both were possibilities we considered in the old days prior to that in S&T.

 

If you mean element in a more generic sense, sure. But obviously not the GB-defined meaning of element as in Toa.

[Roki]

I was referring to the idea of Protodermis as a concept of a fictional chemical element with it's different allotropes giving it's differing forms the properires associated with the different types of protodermis. I've probably read the Greg quotes about it's molecular structure a long time ago, though I do not currently remember exactly what he said. Seeing a molecule can be comprised of a singular element based as long as the charge is electrically neutral, could the idea of protodermis in this sense be possible?

 

My second point was that the Toa and other inhabitants usage of Bionicle Elements which manipulate protodermis could now be hypothetically explained by the GB's granting them the ability to manipulate the allotrops on an atomic level, rearranging them to a different allotropes Such as crystalline protodermis ~melting~ into liquid protodermis . The Toa's ability to Create and manipulate thier own element is tied to the GB's assigning the differing Toa different allotropes to maintain and manipulate.

Creation of Bionicle Elements via Toa is tied to their Elemental Energy. Which i suppose for this theory to be true; would be the naturally occurring raw form of protodermis atoms inside each Toa which somehow self replicates, which upon channeling is restructured into the allotrope or Bionicle Element controlled by the Toa.

 

Not the most cohesive theory, but something that came to mind when thinking about the differing properties of Cabon's allotropes in real life including diamond.

 

-Roki

[bonesiii]

Seeing a molecule can be comprised of a singular element based as long as the charge is electrically neutral, could the idea of protodermis in this sense be possible?

Hm... I would have to say almost certainly not, but there is an "unbridgeable gap of fiction" here because we know of NO means to make a molecule that could possibly do the things protodermis can do, so who am I to say?

 

As for allotropes, it's an interesting idea I've never heard floated. Something along those lines could work.

 

Just for the record, IMO each "molecule" is at the very minimum a collection of both metallic and nonmetallic atoms of various kinds, complete with complex moving parts, similar to some molecular machines in our cells, possibly up to being as complex as our cells, or even more so, in fact. Then I suspect that multiple molecules can be bonded to form other materials, so that's similar to your idea in a way. Each molecule could function as a protein unit equivalent which could combine with others for other functions.

 

But it also has to be advanced enough to project energy fields and energymatter conversion effects, etc. so we leave the realm of current scientific understandability there.

[rahkshi guurahk]

Regardless, both have been ruled out by Greg's confirmation that it's a molecule,

So it could just be some thing like Carbon covalent bonded to Silicon?

[bonesiii]

Regardless, both have been ruled out by Greg's confirmation that it's a molecule,

So it could just be some thing like Carbon covalent bonded to Silicon?

To be realistic, it can only be something much more complex than anything you could sum up with specifics in such a short sentence. So no. It should be at the  very least something closer to what you could only describe as a "nanite" IMO.

 

I do think silicon and carbon are both likely candidates for components, as well as metals like titanium. Who knows, maybe it has almost all known atoms bonded somewhere in its structure? That might go a long way towards explaining how it can so flexibly imitate real matter of so many types.

 

You know, here's an idea I've only just thought of, running off of some of these ideas and ignoring for now the power-generation part. What if it's something like a complex series of protein rings mounted in a roughly spherical polyhedron of proteins (the power generator likely in the core and completely different), and each ring has every known atom in it? If so, then when it needs to mimic a particular atom, all the rings could turn (they could be flexible like proteins, not rigid circles like wheels) so that the atom in question faces out in each direction? There are known biological mechanisms that could easily do this as long as a more complicated system inside regulates it.

 

To imitate other molecules, maaaybe it could slide out the atoms involved in the right ratio, spotted around the sphere, and maybe for the parts that this wouldn't quite work for the power generator would compensate.

 

Just a thought. Part of that is based on a similar but much simpler idea someone else floated a long time ago on the old forums.

[Dual Matrix]

What if protodermis were molecules based on a sort of antimatter(which did not react to normal matter in the way antimatter does) and by so are almost exactly the same as normal matter.