26 replies to this topic

[Kopekemaster]

Even though I have been with Bionicle for a long time, I have gotten the story a bit mixed up. I was wondering if someone (or several people) could write down the chronological story. And answer a few questions of mine:

 

1. So, Mata Nui is a big robot. And the MU is in that robot. How is this possible? And also, Makuta took over the MU, so, when his body was destroyed, wouldn't that destroy the MU?

 

2. How big is Spherus Magna? Because the gigantic robots were fighting on it and not "falling off" into space or something.

 

3. Agori and Matoran/Glatorian and Toa are about the same size, right? (Kinda comes into play with the previous question.)

 

 

And, once you all have written this (if you do), how did you all learn it in the first place? The comic pretty much only covers the basic story.

 

I would like to point out that I know most of the story, just not the order (for example, what was at the beginning of all time? What island was first, etc.)

 

Thank you all for your time!

[Taipu1]

Best you look at the BS01 timeline.  As for your individual questions:

 

1.  The body wasn't full destroyed, but a lot of damage.  This doesn't matter because everybody moved onto Spherus Magna.

2. Spherus Magna is very big, hard to say exactly how big.  There are a lot of theories regarding gravity on there, usually coming down to the core war, and the fact the centre of the planet is probably hollow.

3. As for sizes I think: Matoran size=Agori size, Toa size=Glatorian size.  Their societies can certainly co-exist without difficulties.

 

BS01 will tell you anything you want to know about the Bionicle Storyline, and tells you where it was originally written, whether it was books, movies, comics or Official Greg Discussion. 

[Takua Dragonstar7]

1. Th MU is 40 million feet tall, equivalent to approximately 7,000 miles. Second, the different islands are in domes in there. Third, Teridax's body wasn't destroyed when Mata Nui killed him, but the MU was severely damaged.

2. Pretty big, I guess. The bigger robot was about 7,000 miles tall, which isn't so big compared to how big Earth is. And in our solar system, Earth is a pretty small planet compared to the rest. Spherus Magna was probably the size of Uranus or Neptune, I guess, or smaller.

3. Yes. The Great Beings designed the Toa and Matoran based on the Glatorian and the Agori, respectively, so they should be around the same size.

How I know is that I don't read only the comics. I have read almost every Bionicle book, and read the canonized serials. I have been on websites like BS01. And the GregF Q&A.

Edited by Takua the Chronicler7, Feb 18 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[bonesiii]

To add:

 

1) Specifically, only the back of the head, which is deep underground from Metru Nui's perspective, was destroyed, and nobody lived there. Maybe a few Rahi. The rest just experienced another big earthquake, and when the system then soon shut down, became unstable so that eventually it will collapse. But they had plenty of time to get out.

 

2) Probably comparable to Jupiter. A rock version of Jupiter, apparently with some kind of ability to absorb any gravity over Earth's level, or perhaps to prevent its inner rocks from emitting gravity at all, probably due to the EP. (I've theorized that an instability in this effect would cause the Shattering when they tried to mine the EP.)

 

3) Toa and Glatorian, etc. were shown next to each other at many points in the final part of the story; yes they are roughly the same sizes. Which equates to roughly human tall adult (7 feet) for Toa and children for Matoran.

 

It is possible to extrapolate the timing of most of the events that are told of in the comics, books, and movies by certain key statements inside them. This is what I did when i wrote the original Bionicle Timeline, which BS01's timeline is based on. Greg also wrote some guide books that had specific timing statements, and gave others to us on here. The BS01 Timeline now takes all of that into account. And it's the only place I know of where you can get the fully detailed version right now, though the Bionicle Reference Center timeline on the archived BZP has most of it.

 

There are still some details of the timing that are unknown, though. Often the exact order of unrelated events isn't really relevant so isn't exactly established. If you know the basics from the comics that is what the story team intended to be most important.

 

BTW, I've been mulling over the possibility of making, or maybe collaborating to make, a canon-fitting epic that tells most of the chronological events in order and is a single enjoyable story rather than a timeline, to answer this common question. Haven't had time up to now as I've got several fanfic projects already and stuff, but I hope to eventually do something like that. Also I'm not sure what to do about some of the basics of how to go about it. Should there be a single main protagonist, for example? And who, then? Takua? A GB? etc. I've almost considered a noncanon "observer" type character but yeah... And I would want it to be understandable to someone completely new to Bionicle, so it would have to introduce all the basics we're all familiar with. So, a big undertaking, and therefore no guarantees.

[Infrared]

Regarding the size of Spherus Magna, I think the previous estimates are exceedingly large. Uranus, the smallest of the gas giants in the Solar System (and the smallest ice giant if you want to categorize it that way, but that's less applicable in this instance), has a surface area of nearly 16 Earths and a volume of nearly 64 Earths. There are several problems with having Spherus Magna being so large: one of the most obvious is the gravity, and, consequently, the atmosphere.* When gas giants are very close to their star, they reach exceedingly high temperatures and are called "hot Jupiters." Since you can assume that Spherus Magna is in its star's/Solis Magna's (I don't think that term is official, but it's used on BS01) habitable zone, you can conclude that Spherus Magna is not large enough to reach so-called "hot Jupiter" status, and given what we've seen of its atmosphere it's significantly smaller. Also, there is a matter of travel time. Also, from what we've seen of Bara Magna the villages weren't that far apart. I don't doubt that the map didn't cover the whole planet, but I do doubt that it only showed a very small portion of it.

 

I recently saw a graphic that shows the contiguous United States if it were on the Moon to demonstrate its scale. The contiguous US just about covered the near side of the moon, and went a bit over. The contiguous US is about 3,000 miles wide at its two farthest points from each other; the Moon has an equatorial circumference of about 6,780 miles.** The Mata Nui Robot is about 7,580 miles tall. So, let's say Mata Nui covered about as much area on Aqua Magna as the contiguous US would on the Moon. Quick and dirty math shows that Aqua Magna would have an equatorial circumference of about 17,130 miles. That's still 7,700 miles shy of Earth's equatorial circumference.

 

We probably can't produce a very accurate ratio between Bara Magna and its moons (and I'm not going to try ), but it looks like Aqua Magna:Bara Magna is about the same as the Moon:Earth. More quick and dirty math places Spherus Magna's equatorial circumference at about 62,840 miles. Uranus's equatorial circumference is about 99,020 miles.

 

Assuming Spherus Magna has Earth's density (I'm not going into the gravity issue), I believe it's about 2.5 times more massive than Earth (and Uranus is about 5.7 times more massive than it), making it a "super-Earth": a comparatively new class of planet (there aren't any in our Solar System) that is roughly defined as a rocky planet bigger than Earth but smaller than Uranus (precise limits for what does and doesn't define a super-Earth vary).

 

Now, to be honest I think Spherus Magna would be smaller, but the point of this math wasn't to get a definitive result, but to prove that by plugging in reasonable values you can conclude that Spherus Magna might be a super-Earth.

 

 

* Now, the gravity issue is covered in bonesiii's theory and that causes the problems from it to disappear, but I think it's enough of a stretch that you can't take it for granted, which means that for this I'm assuming normal astronomical processes are in effect.

** Please note that for most if not all of my planetary data I'm using a NASA site whose data doesn't always perfectly agree with that of Wikipedia's. I'm not aiming for perfect mathematical accuracy, though.

 

(If you just scrolled to the bottom, the paragraph in bold shows my conclusions.) 

Edited by Infrared, Feb 18 2013 - 02:50 PM.

[bonesiii]

Regarding the size of Spherus Magna, I think the previous estimates are exceedingly large.... There are several problems with having Spherus Magna being so large...

 

United States if it were on the Moon to demonstrate its scale. The contiguous US just about covered the near side of the moon, and went a bit over.... So, let's say Mata Nui covered about as much area on Aqua Magna as the contiguous US would on the Moon.... Aqua Magna would have an equatorial circumference of about 17,130 miles. That's still 7,700 miles shy of Earth's equatorial circumference.

This basic idea has been talked out and thoroughly debunked in past topics, because all problems with a super-huge Spherus Magna (and larger-than-Earth Aqua Magna) are solveable without any conflict with canon facts and imagery. But the idea that Aqua Magna is small (just focusing on that for now), especially smaller than Earth, conflicts with tons of things.

 

If Mata Nui laying on his back would cover one side of Aqua Magna and go a "little bit over", that would be roughly comparable to the set of 2001 Tahu Mata laying on top of a softball. Now what happens when he stands up? Well Mata Nui would look like Tahu standing on top of a softball. Think about it. That looks absolutely nothing like the vast array of canon images, including comics.

 

There is some disagreement between these images; the comics show the giant robot seeming shorter by comparison with the atmosphere than other graphics. But they all show fairly minimal horizon curving.

 

And if you're going to try to solve the problem of gravity by assuming normal gravity physics, this also creates big issues anyways in that regard. On Aqua Magna it would be more like Mars gravity than earth. And on Spherus Magna (also pre-Reformed Bara Magna), gravity would be crushing. Yet never was any apparent difference from Earth gravity ever implied. Thus it seems clear that both AM & SM are bigger than Earth, by far, and that some mechanism makes gravity over Earth level nullified.

 

For those uninterested in deeper science subjects, that is easily explained with the old "it's Bionicle physics, not Earth physics." For the rest of us, there are many possible theories, besides mine above. It could be that gravity in all of that universe has a stable stacking effect once you reach Earth size or above, so it wouldn't necessarily be a special power. So theoretically planets could get even larger, and this would enable any planet in the whole universe to be like this (helping explain how Mata Nui could spy on alien planets too and would need the camouflage method still).

 

* Now, the gravity issue is covered in bonesiii's theory and that causes the problems from it to disappear, but I think it's enough of a stretch that you can't take it for granted, which means that for this I'm assuming normal astronomical processes are in effect.

I agree we shouldn't take my explanation for how it could be possible for granted. That's just a theory. But it appears to be virtually canon fact that there is a gravity leveling effect, regardless of the mechanism for it. If not, countless canon facts would be contradicted and need explained away. Nearly every animated portrayal of how they move would be wrong. I think that's just way too much of a headache to be worth it. It's a world with tons of "magical" physics anyways, no need to assume Earth physics.

 

 

There are several problems with having Spherus Magna being so large: one of the most obvious is the gravity, and, consequently, the atmosphere.* When gas giants are very close to their star, they reach exceedingly high temperatures and are called "hot Jupiters." Since you can assume that Spherus Magna is in its star's/Solis Magna's (I don't think that term is official, but it's used on BS01) habitable zone, you can conclude that Spherus Magna is not large enough to reach so-called "hot Jupiter" status, and given what we've seen of its atmosphere it's significantly smaller.

Also, hot gas giants have a lot to do with the fact that they're made entirely (or mostly) of gasses, which can include greenhouse gases. A giant rock planet will still have a relatively thin atmosphere, and assuming it's composed properly, will not need to have that problem.

 

However, under normal gravity physics, your interpretation would have another problem with the atmosphere -- of pressure. If AM was smaller than Earth, its atmosphere should be thin. And holding the whole ocean liquid could become a problem too. But as soon as you look at Spherus Magna, its atmosphere should be crushing compared to AM. Especially once you reconcile the sizes with canon images, making AM alone much bigger than Earth. Clearly, normal Earth physics cannot possibly be in operation, despite those planets being made (at least on the surfaces) of normal matter.

 

 

Also, there is a matter of travel time. Also, from what we've seen of Bara Magna the villages weren't that far apart. I don't doubt that the map didn't cover the whole planet, but I do doubt that it only showed a very small portion of it.

The map should cover an area roughly around four to eight times the size (by height) of the Mata Nui robot, roughly at the equator, so a fair ways away from the southern ocean, and also a fair ways away from the northern forest (and as Bara Magna, from those two giant craters). This is because the pieces of the prototype robot are shown, and we know from the final battle that it was shorter than the main robot but not by much.

 

Then, consider the large array of images of that final battle and scenes around it, such as that beautiful one with the prototype in the background radiating blue light that was making the landscape grow plants and have water and the like. For those images to be remotely possible, SM has to be closer to Jupiter than Earth, maybe even bigger.

 

Therefore, travel times between the villages would realistically be quite a long time, but the total inhabited area would still be a tiny percentage of the total planet, so not unrealistically huge. We should keep in mind these beings live astronomically older than us, so extremely long travel times are not as much of an issue to them. Also they tend to use vehicles and steeds to aid this. Still, this factor is probably why they all tend to live so close by each other.

[darkslizer]

Well, obviously I have to say that Spherus Magna IS a great deal bigger than the MU. Although, I have a feeling that gravity inside the MU stays inside the MU. Otherwise, everyone outside the robot would be pulled towards it. (This doesn't include any artificial gravity made by Teridax, since that is his own business). This does bring up some controversy though. If all of the MU can fit on the surface of SM, that means that SM is much, much bigger. Physics dictate that the bigger the celestial body, the more the gravity. So, the SM inhabitants would grow used to more gravity, but when the final battle begins, wouldn't the MU inhabitants be crushed by the massive weight of gravity on their shoulders? (Of course, this is assuming that BIONICLE obeys the laws of physics, which it most likely does not. But who knows?)

[bonesiii]

Well, obviously I have to say that Spherus Magna IS a great deal bigger than the MU. Although, I have a feeling that gravity inside the MU stays inside the MU. Otherwise, everyone outside the robot would be pulled towards it. (This doesn't include any artificial gravity made by Teridax, since that is his own business). This does bring up some controversy though. If all of the MU can fit on the surface of SM, that means that SM is much, much bigger. Physics dictate that the bigger the celestial body, the more the gravity. So, the SM inhabitants would grow used to more gravity, but when the final battle begins, wouldn't the MU inhabitants be crushed by the massive weight of gravity on their shoulders? (Of course, this is assuming that BIONICLE obeys the laws of physics, which it most likely does not. But who knows?)

First of all, please read the above posts which clear up some of your confusion. For the record, Greg confirmed that this is one case in which Bionicle physics are different. In general, it follows Earth physics where there's no problem, and where there is, has its own fictional systems and physics to get around the problems.
 
It's also common knowledge (confirmed) that the MU uses an artificial gravity system, which doesn't "let in" outside gravity.
 
MU gravity is not "central" but "unidirectional" towards the "back" of the robot, meaning all the gravitons are made at a point inside it near the back shell, and emitted "up" (from the inhabitants' POV) in parallel lines towards the front. This is not the same as natural gravity which emits in all directions, and creates an "average center" effect (like planets, which is why they are round). Therefore, even if it did extend accidentally outside the robot, you'd only be pulled towards it if you were in front. If behind, you'd actually be pulled away.
 
This is the artificial field I'm talking about. The protodermis it's made out of, of course, emits natural gravity, but it wouldn't be enough to notice really, maybe an eighth or so of our moon's gravity. I suspect it's entirely reabsorbed and channeled to partially powering the artificial internal gravity system.

Edited by bonesiii, Feb 24 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Tanu Toa of Earth]

Maybe I missed an answer to this, but to avoid the high mas -> high gravity problem, couldn't Spherus Magna's inner crust layers and mantle somehow possess an EXTREMELY low density but yet be as strong as Earth rock? Or perhaps could the deep interior of Spherus Magna be a great big hunk of "swiss cheese metal" full of caves all the way down to the hollow (formerly EP-filled) core?

[Takua Dragonstar7]

Maybe I missed an answer to this, but to avoid the high mas -> high gravity problem, couldn't Spherus Magna's inner crust layers and mantle somehow possess an EXTREMELY low density but yet be as strong as Earth rock? Or perhaps could the deep interior of Spherus Magna be a great big hunk of "swiss cheese metal" full of caves all the way down to the hollow (formerly EP-filled) core?

I disagree with the cave idea because I think the EP leaked out in a similar way to how the lava gets out form volcanoes, just that the EP wasn't as powerful as in a volcano.

[bonesiii]

Maybe I missed an answer to this, but to avoid the high mas -> high gravity problem, couldn't Spherus Magna's inner crust layers and mantle somehow possess an EXTREMELY low density but yet be as strong as Earth rock? Or perhaps could the deep interior of Spherus Magna be a great big hunk of "swiss cheese metal" full of caves all the way down to the hollow (formerly EP-filled) core?

No, because Aqua Magna also had the same (Earth equivalent) gravity of Bara Magna and Spherus Magna, even though it was significantly smaller than both, and made of the same material. Relying on a simple material explanation like that requires us to majorly re-envision the stories of 2001-03 and 2006-07 as basically moonwalking.

 

It's much easier to suppose that something absorbs gravity over that limit, probably something caused by the protodermis.

 

Also, it's said to be made of normal matter, yet about as big as a gas giant planet. No real matter could possibly be that low-density and still be a solid.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 24 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[slifer3000]

My theory on Spherus Magna's size-gravity, is that Spherus Magna is extremely large, but not very dense. So the gravity level would not be very high. So it could be big enough to hold 2 titanic robots such as Mata-Nui and Teridax, but would not have crushing gravity levels that would kill the Agori.

 

And maybe Aqua Magna was extremely dense for its size, allowing higher gravity levels.

 

Or, if that is not possible, it is possible that the MU is magnetic, and simulated gravity as the Matoran and Toa would walk on its various terrains.

[bonesiii]

That can't work because Aqua Magna is a fragment of Spherus Magna. If you take out a tiny percentage of something that has very little mass, by definition the fragment will have much tinier mass.

 

And non-magnetic materials are shown behaving the same (plants, rocks, water, etc.) so that doesn't work either.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 25 2013 - 02:43 PM.

[slifer3000]

It is possible that the plants have metal parts within them. And the water might have light iron levels in it also. Rocks could too.

 

it is most likely that the MU has its own pull to it, and the gravity field malfunctioned on the surface, causing it to engulf the entire AM with its gravity field.

Edited by slifer3000, Mar 25 2013 - 04:59 PM.

[bonesiii]

No, Greg confirmed AM/SM's water is real water. Dissolved metal in real water would eventually be pulled to the seafloor and the water would float away. [Edit: Oh, and don't forget magnetism doesn't just radiate in all directions like gravity -- it has poles. Plus, wouldn't it still be less on AM?]

 

it is most likely that the MU has its own pull to it, and the gravity field malfunctioned on the surface, causing it to engulf the entire AM with its gravity field.

That's a neat idea. I would definitely not say it's most likely, though. Also, it wouldn't explain why Bota Magna also had normal gravity (as far as we know, anyways), nor why Bara Magna remained the same as SM. And like I said, there's no real matter that could be such low-density to enable this, and worse, it's confirmed to be just normal rock (plus exsidian, etc.).

 

Really, why resort to all these complicated alternatives? Is there something about the "something caused by EP in the core absorbing all gravity over a certain limit" theory that you find problematic? It seems to me to be clearly the most likely possibility. It neatly and simply explains everything related to this, while the alternatives rely on various "patches" to explain away inconsistencies.

 

I also propose that the "something" may be exsidian, since it's the only substance on SM other than protodermis itself that is not normal real-world matter. Maybe the core is made mostly out of exsidian, and there's enough on the two moons to normalize gravity there too.

 

Or, exsidian could just be a special steel-like allow unrelated to this, and it would be some type of rock or whatever that does it.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 25 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[Takhamavahu]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Comics in 2010 were wildly inconsistant in how they protrayed the Robots' sizes.

The Mata Nui Saga, paintings were even worse for that, but it's ben well estalished that those images are an artist's impression and the scrutible details are inaccurate. (For example, Tahu emerges from the robot in swamp form, all the rahkshi are yellow and the robot's foot is only the size of a building)

 

One dreadful problem that has been a thorn in Bionicle's side since the end of 2008 is that the Robot was described officially as forty million feet tall. That directly contradicts the measurements given of the island, Mata Nui in 2001 which were backed up by the measurements of Metru Nui in 2004. forty million feet (almost the diameter of the earth) is absurdly oversized even at a glance.

If the robot is forty million feet (12192 km) tall, then spherus magna must be very very large to support the two robots standing on it, let alone fighting. As big as a gas giant is a little much, but it would have to be larger than a difference in density could pausibly account for, when we assume it has earth or near-earth gravity (which it does as we've seen in movies, videos and had described)
 

If we take the image of mata nui's head fitting neatly under the island (the eyes line up with Naho Bay and mount Ihu) and apply the established measurements of Mata Nui from 2001, 357 kio (489 km) long (about half the legth of Madagascar)  and 178 kio (244 km) wide, we come to a much smaller robot than forty million feet tall, unless the robot is 25 times the height of the island that covers more than its head. (eyeballing it, the height of the head is about two thirds the length of the island) That's a pretty tiny head. The average human is 7 and a half heads tall. Even though the robot obviously doesnt have perfectly huma proportions, you can tell by looking at it that it is not that deformed. If I had to eyeball a guess, he looks about 9 heads tall in most pictures.

 

by these estimates (we can venture to do the math properly if you like) the robot should be closer to 9 600 000 feet tall. Less than the diameter of the moon.

If Aqua Magna was a little bigger than our moon, and spherus magna reformed was twice as big as earth, (with deinsity and mass etc accounting for its gravity) The robot could lay down comfortably on aqua magna and stand up (with global catasrophic consequences, but we knew that) on bara magna.

 

[bonesiii]

The average human is 7 and a half heads tall.

Most portrayals show the head much smaller than the total rest of the body. This is probably intentional to help give the impression of huge size. (There is, of course, that one portrayal of a Toa-scale set style Mata Nui with the Ignika as his face, with a much huger head, just sized way up, but I think it's extremely safe to dismiss that as non-canon.) A human baby's head will be much larger compared to his/her body than an adult's. So scaling that up to a giant, it makes sense to have an even smaller head.

 

As for the rest, it's been gone over in countless other topics so no real need to rehash. It would be nice, though, to see the island to scale next to the various portrayals of the head so we could put some understandability to these numbers. I haven't bothered to do the math so just reading your post I have no way to know if your estimates are correct based on the official wording.

 

But probably so. I doubt Greg considered the one when he established the other, really.

 

 

If I had to eyeball a guess, he looks about 9 heads tall in most pictures.

I just checked the concept art (apparently final) version that I used for my MU Domes theory map, and it's 12 heads (a little over). Keep in mind also that it's not like a human head -- it's somewhat conical, with the eyes much closer to the (narrower) top than the middle of the head as humans have. That wouldn't have a huge effect but it helps. So the island need only cover the upper two thirds or half of the face, assuming the chin is kept below low-tide level.

 

That might not necessarily be the most canon portrayal but I would go with it because, as someone pointed out in my topic, it was worked on by a team of people, and the other portrayals seem to refer to it, while those other portrayals tend to just be a single artist. Also it's the only one lined up "scientifically" with the camera in "lockstep"; proportions and poses make the others harder to tell.

 

 

Anyways, I would tend to go with the basic size of the giant, because that's the later number, and if the earlier can't be reconciled with it, consider it a retcon. But we'd have to see it measured out with an image rather than just "eyeballing" it. Also, either way SM has to go way bigger than its gravity should allow, so sizing down the robot accomplishes nothing really.

[Takua Dragonstar7]

If Aqua Magna was a little bigger than our moon, and spherus magna reformed was twice as big as earth, (with deinsity and mass etc accounting for its gravity) The robot could lay down comfortably on aqua magna and stand up (with global catasrophic consequences, but we knew that) on bara magna.

Aqua Magna has to be a lot bigger than the moon, because in I think Reign of Shadows Makuta Teridax, in the bigger robot, says that he can stand up and see nothing but water and he is 7,000,000 feet tall.

[bonesiii]

If Aqua Magna was a little bigger than our moon, and spherus magna reformed was twice as big as earth, (with deinsity and mass etc accounting for its gravity) The robot could lay down comfortably on aqua magna and stand up (with global catasrophic consequences, but we knew that) on bara magna.

Aqua Magna has to be a lot bigger than the moon, because in I think Reign of Shadows Makuta Teridax, in the bigger robot, says that he can stand up and see nothing but water and he is 7,000,000 feet tall.

What do you mean? Aqua Magna had nothing but water. There was no land to see. (Once he stood up, destroying the only island, that is.)

[Takhamavahu]

The image i used was a grey CG model from the mata nui rising video. It's at a slight angle, so It would be hard to accurately measure. I know that a visual estimate isn't reliable math, but if we did crunch the numbers, I cant see how it would end up being more than four times what it looks.

It's an inconsistancy in canon that we'll probably just have to live with.
But it's because everything else fits together so well except for that number, forty million, that I'd like to try to trekkie it into working. It would be retconning an awful lot of stuff that made sense and worked for eight years.

Perhaps "forty million feet" is someone's hyperbole for describing it. Like Raanu looked up and said "wow, that thing must be forty million feet tall" without actually knowing.
Or maybe "feet" means something different between the language on Bara Magna and the Language in the Matoran Universe.

But the main thing is that I'm hesitant to come to a consensus on how big Spherus Magna must be based only on information and inconsitant artwork from the last two years of Bionicle.

[bonesiii]

It's an inconsistancy in canon that we'll probably just have to live with.
But it's because everything else fits together so well except for that number, forty million, that I'd like to try to trekkie it into working. It would be retconning an awful lot of stuff that made sense and worked for eight years.

Perhaps "forty million feet" is someone's hyperbole for describing it. Like Raanu looked up and said "wow, that thing must be forty million feet tall" without actually knowing.

Or maybe "feet" means something different between the language on Bara Magna and the Language in the Matoran Universe.

But the main thing is that I'm hesitant to come to a consensus on how big Spherus Magna must be based only on information and inconsitant artwork from the last two years of Bionicle.

1) Is there anything other than the size of Mata Nui Island it would be retconning? (Assuming that the island had to entirely cover the face, and like I say, I'd like to see a measured-out image before assuming there was any problem here.) We're probably stuck with it if it's an inconsistency, but generally later facts are always taken as more canon than anything previously they retcon. It seems to me it's just that one little trivia it would change, if anything.

 

2) Greg is the one who told us the size, in English. It's not from in-story comments (though it may have been mentioned somewhere in the story too). I remember seeing the answer. If "feet" meant something in Bionicle language, then nonsense is made of Greg's similar statements that Toa are about seven feet tall, etc. or telling us how many feet roughly are in a bio.

 

3) The most obvious problem with reinterpreting "foot" is it's the one measurement in English that has an absolutely clear definition -- the size of a foot. (A particular foot, etc. -- in this case perhaps the average size of an Agori foot, to give "small" the best reasonable chance.) So it can't be significantly smaller.

 

4) How is any of the artwork significantly inconsistent to support a much smaller Spherus Magna? Offhand, all I can think of are the ones showing it and/or the moons as potato-planets, but these are clearly non-canon. One of them is supposedly Aqua Magna for example, but water seeks a level and it's confirmed there's no dry land. The vast majority are in good agreement, and I wouldn't expect rigid perfection -- I think this is a perfectly understandable result of the size simply being so difficult for us to imagine or portray in art. Also, we only learned of Spherus Magna in the final two years anyways, so I don't see how that would matter.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 27 2013 - 03:18 AM.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Wasn't it confirmed at some point that Spherus Magna is the size of our sun? I'm fairly positive I read this on Bzpower sometime.

 

EDIT: By the way, I made this very long ago. It's the entire canon storyline, serials and all, as one book in chronological order. The story from the books are included as summaries taken from BS01, I think. It's about 500 pages, but it has everything in much detail.

Edited by Toatapio Nuva, Mar 27 2013 - 03:49 AM.

[bonesiii]

I decided to go ahead and measure the robot versus island out myself to "test the myth" that it was so extreme we could realistically ignore the stated size of the giant robot and thus result in a significantly smaller Spherus Magna (enough to not need a special explanation of the gravity).

 

Conclusion: "myth busted."

 

In short, according to the official numbers (assuming I didn't make a math error which is VERY possible I did lolz.... so scrutinize away ), and apparently most canon portrayal of the robot's proportions, the island is half the size of the head. Not just some tiny dot.

 

http://www.brickshel...island_size.png

 

The easiest way to explain this is to just say that a few seconds in the Mata Nui Rising video (which wasn't a real story source, it was more of a test video to show off the idea) are non-canon. The TLR portrayal doesn't show the head clearly in relation to the intact island's scale (due to massive -- and likely non-canon lol -- wave action). And I'm not aware of any other. The eyes could be "cross-eyed" with the actual holes being very close together (as implied in Legends of Metru Nui's depictions of the sky), so the holes could be more like the "tear glands" of the eyes themselves. That would also help explain how the eyes can be glowing -- that would be next to the hole, like a giant screen.

 

If you throw out one of the two numbers, there's not really much difference. Either way, "it's a big island" remains true, and the giant robot remains incredibly huge, leaving the Spherus Magna megaplanet even more incredibly ginormous. If you halve the robot, so the head fits "neatly" under the island, that original island size that we're saying "worked so well" still makes the robot be crazyvast. Spherus Magna can't approach Earth size (even if it did we'd still need something like gravity absorption anyways, though, due to AM necessarily being smaller, so ultimately worrying about this doesn't seem to have any practical value...).

 

Wasn't it confirmed at some point that Spherus Magna is the size of our sun? I'm fairly positive I read this on Bzpower sometime.

Not confirmed as far as I know. You're probably thinking of the speculative/theoretical posts. It's probably not quite that huge, but more like Jupiter (which is itself huge compared to Earth, but still dwarfed by the sun). I checked on BS01 at least just now and no mention of a confirmed size.

[Toatapio Nuva]

Okay, it was probably a theoretical post then. And I actually remember the post about Jupiter too, so... yeah.

[Takhamavahu]

The main problem witht hat is that the island is so small on the face.

Aside from the video where it clearly fits neatly, it was established again and again that the eyes lay directly beneath mount Ihu and naho bay. That's why inside metru nui, one of the suns was blacked out and the other was very  dim. the eyes arent close enough together, even if they were "cross-eyed" to fit.
The tiny island doesnt work with this,

and it contradicts the video- the one which announced the major twist that Mata Nui was a giant Robot

and it contradicts the statement that the island was created to cover the face, which stuck out of the water

(on a subjective note, it also works against the visual poetry that the island was a mask all along.)

 

I'm inclined to live with the inconsistancy if we can, but I worry that new things will be established based on it and make a big ugly gap in the consistency of canon.

I flatly disagree that we should consider later information that contradicts as a retcon of earlier stuff. There is too much that was built around those old numbers and works together to be overwritten by one poorly-thought out number given in the last year of the story. It would be much better to just overlook the inconsistency for now, and come up with an explaination for it before we establish anything based on it. My personal preference is to take "40000000 feet"  as a hyperbole.

 

I'm not worried about the size of the planet. Its not something we ever really need to know specifically. but it would be illogical to think it's as big as jupiter. that's silly.

[bonesiii]

established again and again that the eyes lay directly beneath mount Ihu and naho bay

Well, they do. The issue is whether the whole of each eye is entirely beneath them. The way I aligned it in that pic, parts of each eye are under the proper spots. If you notice, the face design actually has the eyes very wide and the nose very narrow, so the island could actually be quite a bit smaller and still work.

 

I agree that keeping the numbers gives us an apparent inconsistency, but that's not really the main point -- the main point is that regardless of which "side" of the inconsistency we go with, Spherus Magna still ends up being incredibly huge, therefore gravity absorption is necessary. (Also that the inconsistency isn't as extreme as it might sound without seeing it actually measured out.)

 

That's why inside metru nui, one of the suns was blacked out and the other was very  dim. the eyes arent close enough together, even if they were "cross-eyed" to fit.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this sentence quite right, perhaps you could clarify? But Metru Nui's depiction would agree that the holes would have to be very "cross-eyed", regardless of the sizes involved, since the two holes were close together, a tiny percentage of the diameter of the dome. And it also portrays them as perfect circles, NOT the wide rectangles we see on the surface. So this is strong evidence that the sun-holes themselves are not synonymous with the entire eyes we see on the outside, and that if the holes were seen as the pupils, Mata Nui would indeed seem very cross-eyed.

 

But this is why I suggest it may be better to see them as the "tear glands" to the immediate right and left of the nose, rather than as pupils. The whole geometry of the thing works out nicely that way, including with the official size numbers.

 

The tiny island doesnt work with this,

How not? It's not as convenient as we all would have wished, but it does work.

 

and it contradicts the statement that the island was created to cover the face, which stuck out of the water

This need not be seen as a contradiction. Remember Greg's admonition to instead of complaining about apparent contradictions, come up with ways to make them work? (He made a whole mini-contest on the idea once, heh.) Under this theory, the face is indeed sticking out of the water, enough that the Kini-Nui sensors can work. Just not entirely out, and as far as I know, it was never explicitly confirmed to stick completely out.

 

And that wouldn't seem to fit the scenario of a crash-landing well anyways. Under normal circumstances, on alien worlds, maybe the island would be larger and he'd make the whole face stick out. (Although why? That just increases the likelihood of aliens finding it, so would seem to serve no practical purpose.) But a crash landing is not likely to fit so snugly. The Matoran are very lucky he didn't happen to land with his face entirely submerged by sheer bad luck.
 

(on a subjective note, it also works against the visual poetry that the island was a mask all along.)

One word. Vahi.

 

You're right, but we're talking about what we'd probably have to say if we were to reconcile all the canon facts, which is basically what this forum is for anyways. A fan fic can safely eschew whatever the author doesn't like, but this forum is for canon theories. It doesn't fit all that art with half the island and half a mask, but then those were always symbolic anyways (and somehow we never got the symbolism until near the reveal lol...).

 

I'm inclined to live with the inconsistancy if we can

Well, look, the canon HAS inconsistencies. It just does. But while we can live with them, it's certainly better to figure out how to make them not be inconsistencies. If we even care lol.

 

I flatly disagree that we should consider later information that contradicts as a retcon of earlier stuff.

Well, I'm not saying this needs to be a retcon. In fact the only thing it contradicts, as that image pointed out, was "late stuff" -- that one scene in that one video. And BTW, it doesn't contradict the rest of the video, just that one tiny little scene -- given that there are even more blatant contradictions between various depictions of the robot and the planets and stuff in the final years, worrying about a few seconds in a non-storyline promo video wouldn't make much sense. (Look at all the TLR depictions of craters on Aqua Magna for example, and the comic Spherus Magna at one point, all clearly contradictions.)

 

Anywho, my point was that IF this needed to be seen as a contradiction of early stuff, the standard policy in just about all fiction franchises is that later stuff retcons earlier. You can personally disagree for sake of fanfics and the like but in terms of canonicity that is what's generally agreed to do.

 

But it doesn't clearly contradict the earlier stuff, so moot point really. It contradicts a semi-late idea fans had that the island covers the face (myself included; I hadn't bothered to think about it), and a few seconds of one video, but nothing early.

 

It would be much better to just overlook the inconsistency for now, and come up with an explaination for it before we establish anything based on it. My personal preference is to take "40000000 feet"  as a hyperbole.

Well an explanation for it is just what I gave.

 

And hyperbole doesn't work, at least if I'm understanding your reasoning, unless you also see the size of Mata Nui Island as hyperbole too. But you seem to be saying that you think that size should be considered accurate. Right?

 

So, if we take the idea that the island neatly fits over the entire face (as seen in those few seconds of that video), then the robot is 2 million feet high rather than 4 million. Now how does hyperbole possibly fit with this? It's still impossibly huge, so to say that something is 2 million feet high still sounds like hyperbole to our normal ways of thinking.

 

Yet, it isn't close enough that you would ever reasonably round up to 4. If you have two cars, and someone asks you how many you have, are you ever going to say, "about four"? I mean, maaaaaaybe you could come up with some incredibly unlikely scenario, but overall, the answer is simply no. You might say "about three", but I doubt it. I would only think you'd round up to four if it was something like 3.5.

 

I also have another problem with trying to size down the robot that I forgot to mention -- if you did, the size of the continents would start to make the label "continent" unjustified. Mata Nui being so big, when compared with Earth, is good because Earth continents work out to be just about right for that. If he was half his size or less, they would seem more like just big islands. (At least if memory serves about that comparison. Maybe we should get another pic of Mata Nui next to Earth. )

 

 

And again, are you saying this was hyperbole on Greg's part? Why would he do that? He told us canonically that it is that big. He didn't tell us that a character said it was that big, so I don't see how hyperbole could enter the picture anyways.

 

 

I'm not worried about the size of the planet. Its not something we ever really need to know specifically. but it would be illogical to think it's as big as jupiter. that's silly.

Er... why?

 

See again this pic:

 

http://biosector01.c..._Shattering.png

 

And actually, comparing with the difference between Jupiter and Earth, you could make a strong case that Jupiter is actually much too small compared to SM. See this pic for that:

 

http://upload.wikime..._Comparison.png

 

Now I'm willing to take the Shattering pic as a bit of artistic license, esp. given that it's from the Mata Nui Saga which had other known inconsistencies, but it would become quite absurd if it wasn't close to Jupiter's size... Right? And that Jupiter/Earth pic actually looks about right under your "hyperbole" theory (2 million feet), maybe still a bit small, though.

Edited by bonesiii, Apr 01 2013 - 02:45 AM.

[fishers64]

 

Looks reasonable. (I don't recall a picture like this before, but whatever. ) 

 

The sizes don't matter much to me, and I'm lazy, so I'm going with the 40 million and bonesiii theory until I can reread my Bionicle books to clear the fog. (I really don't get why the sizing thing is such a big deal.)