15 replies to this topic

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Apparently Agori and Matoran speak in different languages. Miraculously, the bio-mechanical beings of the MU were able to access a latent ability to speak Agori once they stepped out of the robot (though for whatever reason, our Reign of Shadows group - Lewa, Helryx, Vezon, etc. - cannot).

 

What confuddles me is the fact that the Great Beings apparently speak in the programming language they designed for the Matoran. In the serial Brothers in Arms, the Great Beings have a chat with Mazeka - in programming language, because that's what Matoran speak.

 

But wait, you might say. Don't forget Matoran can speak Agori once they leave the robot!

 

Yeah, but what about the RoS group?

 

Hold on! you reply. They speak to a Great Being too! That means the Reign of Shadows group must be speaking in Agori too!

 

Nope, sorry! According to the 'Farshtey Feed', Greg said this:

 

With Mata Nui dormant, Lewa Nuva will likely have to learn the Agori language on his own.

 

I assume this means that everyone in the RoS group will have to learn an entire new language; I can see no reason why it's just Lewa.

 

Either Greg is trying to make this all an elaborate plot point, or he just forgot that Agori and Matoran have different languages when he was writing those serial scenes. Or the Great Beings sit around talking in their own programming language to each other. Like a secret code.

 

Thoughts?

[Exitium]

My guess is that it's probably a minor slip on Greg's part.

 

If you're looking for an in-universe explanation, my best guess is the conversation in Brothers in Arms takes place in Matoran, since that is their language and it would make sense for the Great Beings to use that language when conversing with them.  I'd say that the Great Beings are probably "fluent" (I use this word hesitantly given the nature of the language) in Matoran, and can thus hold "conversations" in it when necessary.  We don't actually see the Great Beings talk among themselves with no one else present, so we don't really know what they speak to each other.

 

I don't exactly remember the conversation the Reign of Shadows group had with the Great Being, but he probably also recognized that he was speaking to beings that only knew Matoran and thus spoke with them in that language.  

 

In the real world, it's not abnormal for people to speak a language that isn't their own if it is the common language in that circumstance, which is what I imagine is going on here.  Of course, this analogy breaks down when you realize that Matoran is a programming language, meaning the whole idea of holding a conversation in such a language makes little sense anyway.  I find it highly unlikely that the Great Beings regularly converse in Matoran when they're not speaking to inhabitants of the MU given that no one in the real world communicates with other people in C++, Java, Python, etc.

[bonesiii]

Well, they invented it to be a fluent language, and Greg confirmed they intended the Matoran to be "sapient in some ways", though apparently not fully. So it should be good for this use. That shouldn't be a problem. Also, we saw Lifer talk to Vezon fluently in it. 

 

What does confuse me is how there could then be an ancient version of Matoran that for example Nokama sometimes needs a Rau to translate.

 

Unless the GBs somehow got / gave a language update later.

[Creep Of The Deep]

I was thinking that Mata Nui's energy nuke that happened when he reversed all the Pit Mutagen mutations and whatnot had affected the Matoran Universe inhabitants in order for the Agori and the MU guys to understand each other. But since the RoS group was in the castle when the energy shock happened, they weren't affected by it.

But then I thought it was too crazy.

 

Most likely a slip.

[fishers64]

My theory is that the Great Beings knew the Matoran language, and were monitoring the MU, and therefore could keep track of any language changes.  

[XyzTheDay!]

Wasn't it confirmed that Mata Nui gave the Matoran the ability to speak Agori, and that the RoS bunch weren't affected because they were inside the Great Beings' fortress at the time?

[Dual Matrix]

It would be strange for the GB's not knowing Matoran, I mean if you'd invent a langue, wouldn't you be the most fluent speaker of that langue.

Also don't forget the GB's are incredibily smart, even if they'd forget the langue after years of just know an ancient dialect. I guess they can just quickly learn that  langue and talk in it, or at least limited. Otherwise, they could just look in the minds of the Matoran and use the "Bablefish"(Hitchhikers Guide, someone?) style of understanding and communicate semi-telepaticly.

 

What does confuse me is how there could then be an ancient version of Matoran that for example Nokama sometimes needs a Rau to translate.

 

Unless the GBs somehow got / gave a language update later.

 

No need to, once your sapient, your langue will evolve so I guess this'd be the case after like 80 000 years.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Wasn't it confirmed that Mata Nui gave the Matoran the ability to speak Agori, and that the RoS bunch weren't affected because they were inside the Great Beings' fortress at the time?

Impossible. Mata Nui was in an entire different robot. There was no way he could change the entire speaking language of 50 zillion different computer-brains. I think it's a latent ability that turns itself on once you leave the robot.

 

 

It would be strange for the GB's not knowing Matoran, I mean if you'd invent a langue, wouldn't you be the most fluent speaker of that langue.

Speaking in binary code is kinda hard.

Edited by TheSkeletonMan939, Feb 25 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[Makuta Matata]

Maybe because these GB's spoke to Mazeka in an alternate universe, he could understand it. 

[Exitium]

Impossible. Mata Nui was in an entire different robot. There was no way he could change the entire speaking language of 50 zillion different computer-brains. I think it's a latent ability that turns itself on once you leave the robot.

Well, before we write something off as impossible, let's keep in mind that Mata Nui changed Spherus Magna from a wasteland into a paradise around the same time.  This is science fiction after all.  The ability to give the Matoran the ability to speak Agori could have been latent within Mata Nui's mind rather than his robot body.

 

Speaking in binary code is kinda hard.

Writing in binary code is kinda hard indeed, but writing in a higher level language (e.g. C++) is much easier, so there's no reason to believe the Great Beings were literally speaking in ones and zeros.  However, you do raise a good point that I hinted at earlier in that it doesn't make much sense to use a programming language for communication (imagine if you could only speak in recipes or instructions).  I remember I wanted to bang my head on my desk when Greg revealed that Matoran was a programming language, but we're stuck with it that way now, so we'll have to try to make sense out of it.  My friends and I used to exchange simple sentences in Java, so it is possible to communicate in a rudimentary way, but programming languages aren't designed for conversation, so either Matoran is incredibly complex and unlike any programming language we have now, or the story team didn't realize the ramifications of having beings speak in a programming language.

Edited by Exitium, Feb 25 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[Katuko]

Our robots are programmed in languages with certain limitations. Our robots, as such, also have limitations in both hardware and software. Matoran are biomechanical, with organic parts and full sapience. It stands to reason that their "programming" is much more like a regular language, or something far beyond it in terms of internal workings.

(Wisdom) is a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to apply perceptions, judgments and actions in keeping with this understanding.

(...)

Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment, a mental faculty which is a component of intelligence or alternatively may be considered an additional faculty, apart from intelligence, with its own properties. Robert Sternberg has segregated the capacity for judgment from the general qualifiers for intelligence, which is closer to cognizant aptitude than to wisdom. Displaying sound judgment in a complex, dynamic environment is a hallmark of wisdom.

(...)

In fantasy fiction and science fiction, sapience describes an essential human property that bestows "personhood" onto a non-human. It indicates that a computer, alien, mythical creature or other object will be treated as a completely human character, with similar rights, capabilities and desires as any human character. The words "sentience", "self-awareness" and "consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction.

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or be conscious, or to experience subjectivity. Eighteenth century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think ("reason") from the ability to feel ("sentience").

If the Great Beings intended the Matoran to be somewhat sapient but not sentient, then that explains why they have a full vocabulary and can interact with each other like regular beings do. Somewhere down the line, they gained sentience as well, and became fully self-aware and living. Furthermore, if the Matoran could be spoken to normally and reason on their own, that would make them a heck of a lot easier to control from the "programmers" perspective. No need to muck around "writing" code or specifying tasks. Just tell the bot what to do.

Matoran is different from Agori, but I still consider it a mostly full language with rules and structure. Nothing like machine code. Communicating in machine code is incredibly inefficient, especially when mechanical ways of communicating instantly (such as telepathy and mind control powers; readily available in Kanohi and many MU beings) exist.


Exactly what language the Great Beings speak naturally I won't guess on, but i think it's certain that they speak both Agori and Matoran. If not every GB learned Matoran (though why wouldn't they, if the planet's future depended on their creation?), then I still think they would have tech to translate or interact with their bots.

Edited by Katuko, Feb 25 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[bonesiii]

Speaking in binary code is kinda hard.

Matoran isn't comparable to binary code. It's more like very proper English, with no informal structures. Like I said, this was designed for sapient beings, not just electronic devices like binary. Even binary has to be translated into a higher language in order for us to program in it.

[NuvaTube]

Mata Nui granted everyone the ability to speak Agori, but the RoS group wasn't around at the time I dont think

[Takua Dragonstar7]

Mata Nui granted everyone the ability to speak Agori, but the RoS group wasn't around at the time I dont think

They were in "space" at that time, like outside Spherus Magna during the Reforming.

Back on topic, I think that the Great Beings are bilingual and possibly know other languages. Also, they can fluently change from one language to the other(s).

[fishers64]

Mata Nui granted everyone the ability to speak Agori, but the RoS group wasn't around at the time I dont think

They were in "space" at that time, like outside Spherus Magna during the Reforming.

No, they would have had to have been in the insane GB's fortress at the time, because that's what blocked the language signal. I would think that would reach them in outer space.

[slifer3000]

Apparently Agori and Matoran speak in different languages. Miraculously, the bio-mechanical beings of the MU were able to access a latent ability to speak Agori once they stepped out of the robot (though for whatever reason, our Reign of Shadows group - Lewa, Helryx, Vezon, etc. - cannot).

 

What confuddles me is the fact that the Great Beings apparently speak in the programming language they designed for the Matoran. In the serial Brothers in Arms, the Great Beings have a chat with Mazeka - in programming language, because that's what Matoran speak.

 

But wait, you might say. Don't forget Matoran can speak Agori once they leave the robot!

 

Yeah, but what about the RoS group?

 

Hold on! you reply. They speak to a Great Being too! That means the Reign of Shadows group must be speaking in Agori too!

 

Nope, sorry! According to the 'Farshtey Feed', Greg said this:

 

With Mata Nui dormant, Lewa Nuva will likely have to learn the Agori language on his own.

 

I assume this means that everyone in the RoS group will have to learn an entire new language; I can see no reason why it's just Lewa.

 

Either Greg is trying to make this all an elaborate plot point, or he just forgot that Agori and Matoran have different languages when he was writing those serial scenes. Or the Great Beings sit around talking in their own programming language to each other. Like a secret code.

 

Thoughts?

...you literally threw a book of info at my face. Dang, I'm a Bionicle noob...