71 replies to this topic

[slifer3000]

Now I actually thought it was 94,000 years. I thought they had been fighting for 6,000 then went to sleep.

[Takua Dragonstar7]

No, I read somewhere that they had been in the Codrex for about 100,000 years.

[bonesiii]

No, I read somewhere that they had been in the Codrex for about 100,000 years.

Technically, they entered it 100,000 years ago. You're right on that part. I've been studying the timeline on BS01 closely for the canon-fit history retelling I'm writing and I'm 100% sure that's what it says.

 

However, they were shot out of the Codrex 1,000 years ago at story present, so they were only in it 99,000 years. I nitpick, sorry. (And I think it's "give or take a few years", I haven't brushed up on the end of the timeline yet. )

 

The timeline also says they were first awoken during the same year they entered the canisters, so they were fighting for well under one year. (In my story I interpreted it as roughly one day, but it was probably actually longer.)

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 06 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Tanu Toa of Earth]

Yeah. In Lewa's(and the rest of the Toa Mata's) case, their joint tissue hadn't been used for 100,000 years (the time in the canisters in Karda Nui and Aqua Magna) so they began to decay and detach, then as bonesiii said, grow new ones later. For Lewa, though, it was both legs and one arm, according to Legends #1 Island of Doom.

Hm, so that implies that Lewa's body basically started to die inside that canister while his mind remained... yuck.

[toa electro]

What if thier stomachs were incinerators that turn it into energy to power the mechanical aspects of thier body, whilst the vitamins and carbs power thier muscles thus no waste

[Darkon219]

Let's calm down now. Please do not use inappropriate language on the forums. -B6

Edited by Black Six, Mar 17 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[Takua Dragonstar7]

Would Bio-Mechanical be better? Because that's the whole point of this topic.

[toa electro]

 i think the fusion of mechanical wiring and electrical neurons would work well

Edited by toa electro, Mar 17 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[Kopekemaster]

I would agree with the bio-mechanical point from above, but:

 

How did they learn how to re-build themselves to make them bigger (between 2002 and 2003, I think)?

 

I don't see how anything could do that.

[TNT-Vezon with an Olmak]

I would agree with the bio-mechanical point from above, but:

 

How did they learn how to re-build themselves to make them bigger (between 2002 and 2003, I think)?

 

I don't see how anything could do that.

The Turaga taught them. I think it was the Rahaga who taught the Toa Metru how to rebuild Matoran, though.

[Strack]

there's only one way to find out all of these questions: we need to build a matoran according to the books. then test it out. is anyone willing to donate 2 lungs? =I

[Takua Dragonstar7]

I would agree with the bio-mechanical point from above, but:
 
How did they learn how to re-build themselves to make them bigger (between 2002 and 2003, I think)?
 
I don't see how anything could do that.

The Turaga taught them. I think it was the Rahaga who taught the Toa Metru how to rebuild Matoran, though.

There could of been information in the Great Temple(before Vakama ruined it), it has a lot of information on about everything.

[Mami Tomoe]

I would agree with the bio-mechanical point from above, but:

 

How did they learn how to re-build themselves to make them bigger (between 2002 and 2003, I think)?

 

I don't see how anything could do that.

 

I don't think that's too inconceivable. Matoran are bio-mechanical. This doesn't necessarily mean all the parts that make up their body are permanantly connected. Think of it this way: their bodies could easily be made up of separate pieces of living tissue (unlike the Glatorian race, who are more like cyborgs than anything else) which can be disassembled but when put back together works in command of the brain.

 

This could also explain how the Toa Mata were reassembled after decaying in canisters for centuries.

[bonesiii]

I don't see how anything could do that.

We have plastic surgery. Tatoos, piercings, all manner of ways we "rebuild" ourselves (though generally far less sensibly than what we're talking about with Matoran -- of course, practical surgery could count too). I don't see how any self-aware being wouldn't be able to think of redesigning themselves.

 

Think of it this way: their bodies could easily be made up of separate pieces of living tissue (unlike the Glatorian race, who are more like cyborgs than anything else) which can be disassembled but when put back together works in command of the brain.

There does appear to be some truth to that. However, Greg also said that when rebuilding, new muscle tissue could grow. This seems to imply they're connected, but not necessarily.

[Mami Tomoe]

That's true. I feel like the rebuilding thing is one of the many continuity gaps left up to the realm of headcanon - it was inserted into the story to explain differences in set design, and Matoran hardly have any concrete form of canonical anatomy. I guess the easiest way to describe it would be that Matoran don't feel pain when they're taken apart, even if biological tissue must be removed/damaged/reconstituted. Whether or not their bodies can naturally come apart is the part left up to interpretation.

[bonesiii]

That's true. I feel like the rebuilding thing is one of the many continuity gaps left up to the realm of headcanon - it was inserted into the story to explain differences in set design, and Matoran hardly have any concrete form of canonical anatomy. I guess the easiest way to describe it would be that Matoran don't feel pain when they're taken apart, even if biological tissue must be removed/damaged/reconstituted. Whether or not their bodies can naturally come apart is the part left up to interpretation.

Maybe they use anesthetic? Perhaps something extracted from a common plant.

[Mami Tomoe]

The thought of this kind of surgery is making me cringe, haha. I wouldn't rule out anesthetic as a possibility, but I do remember something about the Matoran being afraid but then being guided by the Turaga when they revealed there was no pain involved.

[Takua Dragonstar7]

I've thought of it this way. Maybe they take off the Matoran's mask, and "operate" when the Matoran is in a coma. They probably won't feel anything, just guessing.

[Silverglass]

I always thought of the anatomy of MU inhabitants being similar to that of General Grievous from Star Wars, at least organ-wise. His brain was primarily organic, but was "modified" with cybernetic components until almost half of his brain was robotic. In the chest-cavity, he had a force-field/sack that contained other vital organs such as the heart and lungs; and it looked like there was a stomach in there, too. Everything else was robotic. Perhaps Matoran/Toa/Turaga are similar, but have organs that are more mechanical than we think? That would explain how they have the organs they do, plus all of that muscle, and nerves, too, while still being "85% robotic, 15% organic". 

 

What if thier stomachs were incinerators that turn it into energy to power the mechanical aspects of thier body, whilst the vitamins and carbs power thier muscles thus no waste

Sounds logical to me, though perhaps it's the reverse -- the vitamins and such are absorbed first, and anything left is eliminated. But yeah, they still see it as gross to do that. lol

 

That's true. I feel like the rebuilding thing is one of the many continuity gaps left up to the realm of headcanon - it was inserted into the story to explain differences in set design, and Matoran hardly have any concrete form of canonical anatomy. I guess the easiest way to describe it would be that Matoran don't feel pain when they're taken apart, even if biological tissue must be removed/damaged/reconstituted. Whether or not their bodies can naturally come apart is the part left up to interpretation.

Maybe they use anesthetic? Perhaps something extracted from a common plant.

I doubt they feel no pain whatsoever. I'm inclined to think that having a limb detached would hurt as much as a human getting a tooth pulled. Minor/major pain for a few seconds, but it quickly subsides. An anesthetic is possible, too.

 

I've thought of it this way. Maybe they take off the Matoran's mask, and "operate" when the Matoran is in a coma. They probably won't feel anything, just guessing.

Sounds logical to me. XD

[Mami Tomoe]

I really like the General Greivous comparison. I kind of feel like if the "15% organic components" were mostly organs in their head/trunk that letting Matoran be re-built while still conscious makes a lot of sense (tbh I can't really imagine Matoran on the fairly primitive island of Mata Nui performing surgery on other Matoran).

[Silverglass]

(tbh I can't really imagine Matoran on the fairly primitive island of Mata Nui performing surgery on other Matoran).

Good point. You'd think that with completely organic organs they'd need to do something to keep said organs functioning for thousands of years, which makes me wonder if my theory of either somewhat-mechanical organs is on the right track, or a Gen. Grievous-type force-field thing preserving them. Or both, ha ha.

[fishers64]

(tbh I can't really imagine Matoran on the fairly primitive island of Mata Nui performing surgery on other Matoran).

Good point. You'd think that with completely organic organs they'd need to do something to keep said organs functioning for thousands of years, which makes me wonder if my theory of either somewhat-mechanical organs is on the right track, or a Gen. Grievous-type force-field thing preserving them. Or both, ha ha.

 

Or neither. Human organics have cells with replicating DNA and shortening telemeres as a result of such replication, a built-in weakness.

 

If the organics in question did not have this weakness, there would be no need for much organic maintenance other than providing correct nutrition to the organic parts, and such was probably available on Mata Nui. Matoran probably wore armor to protect themselves from organic damage. And Mata Nui was "an island paradise", and Makuta was more out to scare the Matoran instead of kill/maim them.

 

Further, any surgery would likely be done by the Turaga.   

[Dual Matrix]

 

(tbh I can't really imagine Matoran on the fairly primitive island of Mata Nui performing surgery on other Matoran).

Good point. You'd think that with completely organic organs they'd need to do something to keep said organs functioning for thousands of years, which makes me wonder if my theory of either somewhat-mechanical organs is on the right track, or a Gen. Grievous-type force-field thing preserving them. Or both, ha ha.

 

Or neither. Human organics have cells with replicating DNA and shortening telemeres as a result of such replication, a built-in weakness.

 

If the organics in question did not have this weakness, there would be no need for much organic maintenance other than providing correct nutrition to the organic parts, and such was probably available on Mata Nui. Matoran probably wore armor to protect themselves from organic damage. And Mata Nui was "an island paradise", and Makuta was more out to scare the Matoran instead of kill/maim them.

 

Further, any surgery would likely be done by the Turaga.   

 

Yes to my knowledge of biology, this seems very legit. Hower there should also be a way to replace dead cells in the brains(which are IMO semi-organic) Because to my knowledge they don't reproduce.

[bonesiii]

Yes to my knowledge of biology, this seems very legit. Hower there should also be a way to replace dead cells in the brains(which are IMO semi-organic) Because to my knowledge they don't reproduce.

Or not have them die in the first place. That's basically what fishers is saying.

 

For those who don't know, "telomeres" are like bookends or the covers of books -- they're endcaps on the strings of DNA that keep them from unraveling. Every time our cells divide (which apparently happens roughly 80 times per lifespan), they get shortened one notch. Eventually they disappear and DNA decays faster. So, more replacing of old cells is actually bad from that perspective.

 

Four basic ways to solve this:

 

1) Hardest -- make cells not need to divide much once you reach adulthood.

 

2) Have really long telomeres (but this takes up space).

 

3) Have a mechanism to repair the telomeres.

 

4) Or don't have them shorten (apparently some microbes have this option).

 

One/both of the final two is most likely IMO. Of course, there's more to aging but that's the biggy.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 23 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Dual Matrix]

Yes to my knowledge of biology, this seems very legit. Hower there should also be a way to replace dead cells in the brains(which are IMO semi-organic) Because to my knowledge they don't reproduce.

Or not have them die in the first place. That's basically what fishers is saying.

 

For those who don't know, "telomeres" are like bookends or the covers of books -- they're endcaps on the strings of DNA that keep them from unraveling. Every time our cells divide (which apparently happens roughly 80 times per lifespan), they get shortened one notch. Eventually they disappear and DNA decays faster. So, more replacing of old cells is actually bad from that perspective.

 

Four basic ways to solve this:

 

1) Hardest -- make cells not need to divide much once you reach adulthood.

 

2) Have really long telomeres (but this takes up space).

 

3) Have a mechanism to repair the telomeres.

 

4) Or don't have them shorten (apparently some microbes have this option).

 

One/both of the final two is most likely IMO. Of course, there's more to aging but that's the biggy.

 

If you like say hit your head against something some cells in your brain will die, on a human this isn't really noticable but after 100000 years this'd start to be deadly, altough their metal braincase would give some more protection

 

I'm assuming number four is the best option

Edited by Dual Matrix, Mar 23 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[bonesiii]

If you like say hit your head against something some cells in your brain will die, on a human this isn't really noticable but after 100000 years this'd start to be deadly, altough their metal braincase would give some more protection

The keyword there being "your" brain cells will die. Theirs might not. We also don't live many thousands of years, so looking to us as the rule for how they must work doesn't quite work

[fishers64]

If you like say hit your head against something some cells in your brain will die, on a human this isn't really noticable but after 100000 years this'd start to be deadly, altough their metal braincase would give some more protection

The keyword there being "your" brain cells will die. Theirs might not. We also don't live many thousands of years, so looking to us as the rule for how they must work doesn't quite work

 

They could have brain cells that reproduce to make up for damages.

 

Actually, that strikes me as a plausible theory, because you could have organic memory wiping that way, killing off the brain cells that do memory except for a few vital language memories, and then have the cells redivide out, blank. But these cells wouldn't reproduce unless they were damaged (like liver cells in humans) so there wouldn't be any data loss normally.  

Edited by fishers64, Mar 24 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[bonesiii]

 

If you like say hit your head against something some cells in your brain will die, on a human this isn't really noticable but after 100000 years this'd start to be deadly, altough their metal braincase would give some more protection

The keyword there being "your" brain cells will die. Theirs might not. We also don't live many thousands of years, so looking to us as the rule for how they must work doesn't quite work

 

They could have brain cells that reproduce to make up for damages.

 

Actually, that strikes me as a plausible theory, because you could have organic memory wiping that way, killing off the brain cells that do memory except for a few vital language memories, and then have the cells redivide out, blank. But these cells wouldn't reproduce unless they were damaged (like liver cells in humans) so there wouldn't be any data loss normally.  

That makes a lot of sense.

 

Probably a combination of many different factors, starting with being more durable in general, and ending with being much more repairable.

 

The whole thing about entire muscles regrowing, BTW, is evidence for any kind of healing beyond what we can do IMO. We can't normally grow muscles to replace old ones (as far as I know lol, not an expert). I'd say pretty much anything that doesn't regrow in us probably does in Bionicle beings (including Agori).

[Takua Dragonstar7]

IMO I'm not so sure about Agori because they are very similar to humans in armor. I'm guessing it is possible, but most likely not really because they would have more to grow back than a MU resident's because the MU residents have less tissue to grow back. The GBs created pretty much th design for all the MU residents, and probably designed them to grow back organic matter but the Agori and Glatorian weren't made by the GBs and I'm guessing they won't be, but who knows?

[bonesiii]

IMO I'm not so sure about Agori because they are very similar to humans in armor. I'm guessing it is possible, but most likely not really because they would have more to grow back than a MU resident's because the MU residents have less tissue to grow back.

But again, humans don't live anywhere near so long, and our inability to regrow certain parts once they get damaged is a major reason why (since everything wears down over time, especially with use). MU beings and Agori/Glat/etc. both live hundreds of thousands of years at least. It's hard to imagine how Agori could live so long without basically everything being maintained.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 24 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[Silverglass]

Commence 3am ramblings.

May as well slip this in while it's on my mind: I was watching LoMN (for the first time in probably three years) the other day and was curious as to what exactly is on the backs of the Toa that Toa Tools, Kanoka disks, etc. are put into. Are they these "energy packs" that I've heard of in fan-fics (but don't remember seeing in-canon), and are they part of a being's body? I remember being rather bamboozled when MoL was released and wondering where the heck the Toa stored their Tools when not in-use, ha ha. So in short: piece of equipment, or funky piece of Matoran/Toa/Turaga biology? 

[bonesiii]

May as well slip this in while it's on my mind: I was watching LoMN (for the first time in probably three years) the other day and was curious as to what exactly is on the backs of the Toa that Toa Tools, Kanoka disks, etc. are put into. Are they these "energy packs" that I've heard of in fan-fics (but don't remember seeing in-canon), and are they part of a being's body?

No. I specifically asked Greg back in the day if he'd consider canonizing energy packs (that term was my invention; the idea of "hammerspace" that they allude to is common though), and he turned it down in favor of movie artistic license and budget-saving. Canonically they were either attaching them to scabbard type things or putting them in backpacks (depending on the instance). As in cloth, etc. -- no powers. They just didn't bother to actually show the backpacks.

 

Of course, one exception is Kanohi masks which can be teleported with Suva. Using the Suva as a tie-in for other objects would be another alternative fanon explanation as well. But canonically no.

Edited by bonesiii, Mar 25 2013 - 02:12 AM.