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JRRT

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Blog Comments posted by JRRT

    GSR

    Posted

    I feel ya on most of these points, except the one where you feel even partly responsible for the decline of activity round here. There's no blame to dole out on that score. As I see it, BZP's broad and active creative community of old was primarily a natural phenomenon, not one that was (or could have been) manufactured by any kind of marketing or strategy on the part of the staff (unless I just never had the right clearance for that part of the Plan =p ).

     

    The way things are now is also a natural progression due to various factors (age of fans, internet culture, the nature of new social media, etc.) that have been belabored elsewhere. It's not bad, just different. And looking at all the platforms where Bionicle fandom still has a foothold, I don't see any net decrease in creative activity. BZP as a place may decline, but, as with many many other (toy-)lines, Bionicle itself remains an incredibly fertile source of imagination and creativity, and I'm content with that.

     

    JRRT

    • Upvote 2
    JAG18

    Posted

    sniff sniff there's Old English afoot

     

    nothing beats that original:

     

    ac in campe gecrong    cumbles hyrde, 

     

    æþeling on elne    ne wæs ecg bona, 

    ac him hilde-grāp    heortan wylmas 

    bān-hūs gebræc.    Nū sceall billes ecg, 

    hond ond heard sweord    ymb hord wīgan.

     

    but in combat cringed    the banner's herd,

    the prince in strength,    edge was not the-slayer

    but battle gripped    his heart, whelms

    broke his bone-house.    Now shall blade's edge,

    hand and hard sword,    for the hoard do battle.

    • Upvote 3
    JRRT

    Posted

    I really want to commend you on this whole dictionary - I actually made my account on BZPower partially because I wanted to thank you for making this resource. I am blown away by the whole thing. It helped me name a Toa of mine, and the words you've come up with really sound authentic. :^)

    I unfortunately have to point out one small error - many sources (BS01 being one of them) say that the meaning of Visorak "poisonous scourge" is attributable to their own language and not Matoran. Wouldn't the etymology listed here therefore be rendered moot?

    Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad it's been a helpful resource!

     

    You're right about the supposed origin of the meaning of "Visorak". Here's the relevant quote (from Toa Whenua):

     

    "No one knows where the Visorak came from or why. Those few who have mastered their language claim that Visorak means 'stealers of life' and others say it means 'poisonous scourge.'"

     

    Note that both of the meanings cited ("stealers of life" and "poisonous scourge") are assigned an origin by Whenua. The "stealers of life" meaning comes from "those few who have mastered [the Visorak] language" (and they only claim that that is the correct meaning, apparently). The "poisonous scourge" meaning, on the other hand, comes from "others" (i.e. not necessarily those who have mastered the Visorak language). Very interesting. Here's the justification I've used:

     

    The "poisonous scourge" meaning is a "folk-etymology" invented by Matoran/speakers of the Matoran Language who became aware of the Visorak. It was formed on the basis of the already pre-existing Matoran words viso "poisonous" and -rak "scourge". This fits with the fact that it is "others" (non-speakers of Visorak) who have assigned this meaning to the name. Therefore, the "stealers of life" meaning is presumably the correct etymology in the Visorak Language (or close to correct, depending on how reliable the claims of those who have mastered the language are =p ).

     

    The reasoning for this is as follows: The "poisonous scourge" translation feels (to me) like a description that would be assigned to the Visorak by the Matoran (or other species) that have fallen victim to the Visorak--not something that the Visorak would call themselves. "Stealers of life", on the other hand, seems to fit that bill a little better. I might be wrong, of course, but that analysis feels like it fits in with Whenua's assessment of the name's translation.

     

    There are a couple more aspects to this (namely a postulated relation between the Visorak Language and a general Rahi Language, which would ultimately be descended from the same basis as the Matoran Language), but I think that covers it!

     

    JRRT

    JRRT

    Posted

    Doctoral Dissertation on Matoran confirmed??

    Maybe that'll be my backup. =p

     

    When I first glanced at the document, I thought to myself, it would be even sweeter (than it already is) if you or someone else could make a recording of "The Legend of the BIONICLE" in the Matoran language, in Vakama's voice.

    There are quite a few recordings of Matoran, believe it or not, many of them made in response to a "Bionicle Accent Challenge" on tumblr where people recorded how they pronounce various Bionicle names/terms. I contributed a short Matoran piece for fun. The text used is a simplified version of the "Legend of Mata Nui", which forms the basis of Vakama's intro speech for MoL.

    JRRT

    Posted

    I would prefer "Creation" as well, mainly due to the fact that it gives us more letters to use (including nearly the entire vowel inventory of the Latin alphabet)...

     

    However, the fact is that the sequence of glyphs in the Temple of Time is identical to the primary sequence used on the MoCr, so if we say that this sequence spells out "Creation", it means that the inscription in the Temple of Time also spells out "Creation", which isn't necessarily ideal.

     

    For that reason, using the word "Bionicle" (or some other eight-letter word) makes more sense, since it's generic enough (I think) to feasibly appear in both places (and elsewhere throughout the island).

    • Upvote 3
    JRRT

    Posted

    I don’t have much solid info to give on those aspects of the grammar, unfortunately, but I have added a chunk of stuff on possessive forms of pronouns (and possession in general) to tide you over! =p Here’s what’s been added:

     

    - Possessive form

     

    Pronouns are also used to denote possession relationships, in which case they are suffixed to the noun that is possessed.

     

    **The third person affix -ai/-oi can also be used to indicate possession when a full noun possesses another full noun. In such a case, it is suffixed to the noun which is possessed, and the possessor noun is usually placed directly before the possessed noun (see examples 10 and 11).

     

    1st -o, -oa "my, our"

    2nd -ou "your"

    3rd -ai, -oi "her/his/its, their"

     

    (7) ni-o "my/our star"

    (8) koro-ou "your village"

    (9) madu-ai "her/his/its/their tree"

    (10) Toa rahi-ai "the Toa's Rahi; lit. 'The Toa, her/his/their-Rahi"

    (11) Matoran koro-ai "the Matoran's village; lit. 'The Matoran, her/his/their-village"

     

    ==========

     

    As I mentioned, ideas on dependent clauses are very much in flux currently. I have, however, been using a particle ki (taken from a stem ki “part, piece”) as a subordinator basically equivalent to English “that, which” in relative clauses. So “the Toa [that I saw]” would be: toa [ki o akuyanu]. There’s also the possibility of ta as a conjunction “for” or subordinator “because” for clauses, as I suggested in the last post.

     

    As for prepositions, the closest equivalent would be the nominal affixes in Section 4. Those all pretty much encode concepts encoded by prepositions in English ("to", "of", "from", "under", "over", etc.).

     

    JRRT

    • Upvote 1
    JRRT

    Posted

    Fantastic, as always.

     

    All your translations have inspired me to mess around with Matoran a bit, and I thought I'd start with "You cannot defeat me, for I am nothing":

     

    Ou ako zya-ko-rhu, [because] o naiur [am].

     

    (naiur = "nothing" from nai "all" + -ur)

     

    As you can see, I've run into a bit of a stumbling block... I've looked at some of your other stuff but haven't been able to figure out the words for "because" or "to be." Hopefully this isn't too off-base, but if you could help fill those in that'd be awesome. :D

    Not far off-base at all! Your translation of the first clause looks totally fine to me. As for your questions, first, here are some preliminary answers:

     

    1. I don't have a ready-to-hand correlate for something like "for" or "because" at the moment, and that's mainly due to the fact that the topic of subordinating elements (and subordinate clauses) is still a pretty sketchy part of the grammar.

     

    2. Great question about "to be"! I'm glad you brought it up actually, because I totally forgot to include anything about it in the overview, in spite of the fact that it's kind of an important thing. I have added a subsection and several examples to Section 2 to resolve this problem. Here it is, as reference:

     

    - "To be" (the copula verb)

     

    There is no Matoran equivalent of the English verb "to be"! Instead, English constructions such as "X is Y" or "Y is X" (basic equative or copula constructions) are simply expressed as "X Y" or "Y X" in Matoran. Such constructions can involve a noun and an adjective (N+A), two adjectives (A+A), or two nouns (N+N).

     

    But if there's no overt verb corresponding to "to be", you might ask, how is tense (or negation, or a question) marked in such constructions? Simply put, the necessary affixes (tense, negation, etc.) are attached to whichever element (N or A) is placed in final position (where the verb would normally go).

     

    Examples:

     

    (10) Matoran kofo. "The Matoran [is] small." (N+A)

    (11) Nui kofo. "Big [is] small." (A+A)

    (12) Rahi jaga. "The Rahi [is] a scorpion." (N+N)

    (13) Toa matoran-nu. "The Toa was a Matoran."

    (14) Manas rahi-pa. "The Manas is a Rahi."

    (15) Matoran toa-ko-rhu. "The Matoran will not be a Toa."

    (16) Ke-matoran-nu? "Who was the Matoran?"

    (17) Toa-pa-ki? "Who is the Toa? / The Toa is who?"

    (18) Toa i-matoran-nu-ka? "Was the Toa a Matoran?"

     

    ==========

     

    Alright, those are the preliminary answers. Now I'll speculate a bit on how to improve the translation of the second clause.

     

    On the issue of "for/because", I'd actually be tempted to just split "You cannot destroy me, for I am nothing" into two independent clauses: "You cannot destroy me. I am nothing." That'd be the easy way out, since it would avoid the problem of pinning down a subordinating conjunction, in which case the translation would be:

     

    Ou ako zya-ko-rhu. O naiur.

     

    However, if we wanna get speculative, one idea that I've toyed around with for subordinating elements is using an elemental stem like ta, which I've also construed as encoding a meaning related to "causation". Thus, ta could stand in for a word like "for" or "because", since it would introduce the motivating reason behind the claim of the first clause. That'd make the translation:

     

    Ou ako zya-ko-rhu, ta o naiur.

     

    Lastly, I also have a suggestion related to the noun you've used to denote "nothing". I like the approach with nai+ur, although it seems like a combination like that would yield something closer to a quantifier "none" ("opposite of all"). Another possibility that came to mind was a term incorporating no "protodermis; substance, matter". Thus, no-ur > nour "opposite of substance". From that we could get a noun like nourhi, nouri (< nour-hi) "nothing, void", in which case the final translation would be:

     

    Ou ako zya-ko-rhu, ta o nouri.

     

    =========

     

    Fun stuff. Thanks for the response!

     

    JRRT

    • Upvote 1
    JRRT

    Posted

    Does the southern tip really have those sheer cliffs?

    Needless to say, there'll be plenty of artistic liberty going on here. The goal is fun, not 100% geographic accuracy.

     

    However, if you take a look at this image from BS01, the southern coast does seem to be elevated. I don't know what the original source of that image is tho, or if it's even technically accurate. Ah well.

     

    JRRT

    • Upvote 1
    bonesiii

    Posted

    It's your party, bones. =P You asked for opinions on your idea, and I gave a few (too many? Maybe so). I don't make a habit of crashing other peoples' parties with my silly stuff.

     

    But since you asked, I'll bite: I'd go with a word meaning "body". I've got one ready at hand, but it requires a few assumptions about Matoran etymology that might not sit well with you/others. It derives from no "protodermis": ono or onoi. I'd use Ono Nui or Onoi Nui as a general Matoran word for "universe". As for the "Makutaverse" connection, that'd be Makuta-Ono/Onoi, literally "body of Makuta".

    • Upvote 4
    bonesiii

    Posted

    Based on this sentence, I suspect the issue is you are subjectively (perhaps erroneously?? but it might be a taste thing) seeing drawing inspiration from real-world languages as a lower standard.

    If I have a choice of coming up with a new Matoran word that fits with canon, where would I rather derive it from? Two choices: (a) break the fourth wall and take it from a human language, or (b) fabricate it from already established canon material. As someone who cares about the internal consistency of the canon (and I'm sure you do too), I'd go with (b). Maybe that is subjective personal choice. As you say, I don't think we're really conflicting that much here. If I could come up with a Matoran etymology for Taia, I'd probably be okay with it, although my intuition says that there might be a better option...Either way. carry on.

     

    LEGO's later avoidance of anything* Maori came across to a lot of people as overcorrection, a lowering of quality, albeit done with good intentions.

    That doesn't really matter. You might have thought it was overcorrection. I don't care if it was. The result was that we had a set of okay Maori words to use--and we still do, so...Minor point though.

     

    As for "appropriation", let's not rehash the whole "problem with Ninjago" thing here.

    I'm probably missing context here. Is this a thing now? Feel free to just say "yes" and leave it, since I'm not up on forum activity these days. =P Either way, the Latin comparison is a non-sequitor, although there probably is a legit example out there for you to use. LEGO went for Latin in the Bara Magna years because it's potentially easier to clear legally and it's not likely to offend anyone since it's a "dead" language (and Roman culture is similarly absent). yadda yadda

    • Upvote 7
    bonesiii

    Posted

    If you're saying you don't like Bionicle-language words inspired by real-world, that's cool, but it's something I greatly prefer, as it makes them more meaningful than just picking something random. Etymology derived from actual canon Matoran is just as grounded in Maori and other real-world languages, so it's six of one, half dozen of the other.

    I didn’t say that, no. As you said—most of the original names/terms in Bionicle, in fact the majority of them, were derived from real world languages in some form or another. We all know that. That being said, it’s not six one way, half dozen another when it comes to Maori. Bionicle words were taken from Maori originally, yes, but that stopped pretty early on for very specific reasons (i.e., appropriation of Maori culture/language). We have a specific set of Maori-derived Matoran words that are "in bounds", and therefore I would argue that etymologies derived from those canon Matoran words are legitimate. Etymologies derived from randomly picked Maori words after the fact are not if you want them to line up with the canon. In fact, that last point seems to be the central issue here:

     

    Not sure I'm following you here. No fan-made words work for canon, legally. Whether pure random generation or inspired from real-world languages; the LEGO legal department made that decision years ago. You probably know this, but just checking. And many words that remained canon come from Maori. The vast majority of the originals do, and that's a style I've always liked a lot, arguably best, in Bionicle.

    I’m well aware of the details and legalities of what counts as canon. Here’s my point: I like to expand on the canon. Most of us do. And if I’m going to expand on the canon, I want it mesh with and be acceptable as canon, regardless of whether or not there’s any real-world possibility of said expansion being accepted as canon (which there isn’t). Simply put, that means no taking words from Maori, since Maori has been off-limits since early '02. And since the issue with Maori was related to cultural appropriation (i.e., not copyrighting), it makes sense that slightly modifying words from Maori is also off-limits. Pretty simple. Just because there’s no chance of a fan-expansion being accepted as canon doesn’t mean those fan-expansions can’t still be held to the same standards as canon would be. That’s my choice, of course. But maybe not yours.

     

    I have to agree, I definitely prefer to derive custom BIONICLE words and names from real-world languages when possible, rather than following the elaborate linguistic analyses people put forth to create an elaborate system of Matoran grammar, mechanics, and word formation. Drawing inspiration from real life feels a little bit more sincere, to me — it's an acknowledgement that BIONICLE is a fictional universe with hard-working human creators who more often than not drew their inspiration from the real world. As a result, not everything is going to make sense internally, and that's perfectly OK, because the goal is to create a universe for the enjoyment of an outside viewer.

     

    I feel like this may be directed at me, but maybe not. Either way--I certainly hope we agree that your approach ("Drawing inspiration from real life") and the approaches of others ("...elaborate linguistic analyses...") are equally legitimate contributions to the Bionicle fandom. They both express the passion and varying interests of Bionicle fans, and they are both, I think, very sincere.

     

    EDIT: And just to make sure the connection to the MU-name is clear: because of the reasons stated above, I'd rather derive a name for the MU internally via already-established Matoran content instead of externally via borrowing/modification from a real-world language.

    • Upvote 7
    bonesiii

    Posted

    It isn't -- I mentioned in the entry that my version is shortened. The actual Maori word is "Taiao". :) This is meant to be Matoran, simply inspired by Maori.

    Ah, okay, missed that. But even so, for all practical purposes, isn't "inspired by Maori" pretty much the same as "taken from Maori"? And by practical purposes I mean: "Could this work as a canon Matoran word?" Legally? Not if it's derived from Maori. I guess, in the grand scheme of things, I'd still love a term that has some kind of grounding in actual Matoran etymology.

    • Upvote 7
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