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Everything posted by bonesiii

  1. That's actually plausible, since the Mask of Elemental Energy is one-use.
  2. Mask powers, correct (since you have to be wearing this mask to stay undead, although there is the overlapping possibility but that's probably not too smart), but elemental powers or Tool powers should work. Otherwise your understanding looks pretty much right-on. Although with the above Greg quote, inter-island missions are apparently quite possible if they had spent enough time charging it up before, since it apparently holds off the RS teleportation until the mask releases its user into total death.
  3. Basically, until shortly after the lake, they headed downhill (slightly), in liquid protodermis, then after Onewa sealed the tunnel right next to the lake (making the rest of the journey uneventful and thus not needing to fill lots of pages, giving the illusion of being nearly the end of the journey), it portrays the water as going against them (and flooding that side of the sealed tunnel, so it can't be coming from the other side), so they need the legs to act like oars to get higher (and water type isn't commented on until they emerge on Mata Nui). Ergo, no pumps pushing water up. Ergo no problem needing fixed -- and if it was retconned as that answer suggests, it would actually create problems as described above.
  4. But it's already been established that none of the water was going up. If you misdirect him with the wording of your question about something he wrote long ago and probably doesn't remember, I wouldn't take his answer as relevant here, since it would be retconning what he actually wrote in the published book and almost certainly due to forgetting, so the forgetcon rule comes in here. There was no need to ask him that. I know you meant well, but this is exactly why it's better to clearly understand what the existing sources say first and if you do need to ask something, be sure to give him all the information up front.
  5. Please do not post in topics that have been inactive for sixty days or more. Revived topic closed.
  6. Please do not post in topics that have been inactive for sixty days or more. Revived topic closed.
  7. Please do not post in topics that have been inactive for sixty days or more. Revived topic closed.
  8. One clarification to your reply about MNOG & MOL being wrong -- I don't know if you noticed but, at least with MOL, I don't think we're even that far -- how do we know MNOG was even "wrong" versus simply being misinterpreted? How do we know they intended that to be stone? And the same does apply to MOL, though again that one does look like stone and at least it isn't just flecks on a flash animation. Alright, understandable. Cool. My apologies if you got that impression -- I never said that, though. Of course he didn't -- and I've said he didn't. I said he weighed in on a debate, originally saying sand was in Stone, then saying neither. And it's essentially the same as the quotes we do have (though the wording was evidently clearer which is why I wish we could get it back somehow, as it settled the matter for everybody active at the time ever since, until 2015 ), if you think it over carefully. The problem with that is, soil can be turned into rock too, given the right processes, so by that reasoning, why should anything under Earth also be in Pohatu's control? This is where the conventional explanation shines, because it doesn't break down like the other explanations did when you consider that things you dig through and things that make up boulders can and often are the exact same substance. And since Ice and Water are too, it's consistent. I appreciate the recognition, but you might be surprised to hear I actually disagree with this. At least, "a fact you need to accept" is... how to put it? It can come across the wrong way, you know? I believe you simply mean recognize that it is canon, but I don't think the critics of perceived mistakes are usually focusing on that. I think they would think of "accepting" it as agreeing it made sense. And since constructive criticism, especially if it is (as all should be) logical, can change Greg's mind on some things. (Especially if it's a science subject, obviously not his best area. And I've been a part of correcting him on one, so I know he can change his mind from criticism on it if worded very carefully so you make it clear it's something that would apply logically in Bionicle and don't trigger his "Earth science need not apply" fallback.) Okay, if an event happened in published story, we can't take that back, but yeah. Anyways, chalk it up to a word choice disagreement if you like. But glad I'm making sense to you. fishers -- Yeah, I figured that was it; the setup of the question was confusing. I had to stare at it a few seconds before I got it back when I dug it up for the other topic. But the grammar is, luckily, crystal clear.
  9. Fishers, he clearly stated that it is not in Pohatu's power. Read the quote more carefully. No time for anything else at moment...
  10. Interesting take -- I took it the other way. Agori represented the trend, and that would make it more likely these are organic.
  11. I had a feeling you'd say that, heh. No -- but if you use something from one source as if that proves anything, and base your argument earlier on doubting that Greg did support it, then showing Greg does support it is relevant, and showing that all the sources can mess up is also relevant. I was hoping this was too obvious to need added to an already huge post... but that's okay. (And apparently you don't follow the Official Greg topic, as I've argued that Greg is wrong often. Heck, I did that in the previous post too!) Also, what's "wrong"? No interpretation of Bionicle is "wrong". But a claim that one interpretation is the canon one can be incorrect, or one interpretation can be non-canon. Pretty basic, yanno.
  12. RL, I haven't read your latest post yet as I type, but since you keep going back to the "Earth = ground" thing, and I already dealt with it in Greg quotes before, I decided to dig up that post again. Here's the ones that address some of the specific points you've made trying to defend the ground idea: This one disproves this: "stone toa basically only ever seem to control rocks that are apart from the ground" Here's Greg's summary of the element: Here's another about Stone Toa controlling stone that is underground (when they start the action ): And this one directly addresses the "stones are found in earth" argument, and once again associates Stone with ground (shouldn't be surprising; both are!): So Onewa controls stone both underground and above ground. And this can be fairly summarized as "Onewa deals with rock; Whenua deals with soil." There's really no room here for the conventional understanding to be wrong or the Earth=ground myth to have been intended all along, man. Notice the part in bold. If "Whenua can control the stone you mentioned" was intended, then we wouldn't expect the answer to include: "Onewa can make big rock pillars rise up out of the ground, Whenua can't." This part isn't conclusive because of "rise up", but it's another strange missed opportunity if the stone being in earth was meant to be within Whenua's control. This one also shows a problem with arguing it based on rocks being underground: And as I pointed out before with this quote, if there are roots underground, are they under Earth too? Also, to add to the point about this being such common knowledge when Greg was active -- it isn't just, as maybe you're imagining, that he answered a lot of questions by PM. He was also very active, almost as much as the typical active fan, in posting in topics, and people were saying this all the time in those topics, which seemed to come up at least every few months. He was posting in them; if it was incorrect, he had ample opportunity to say so. And they were also fairly often mentioning that the "earth = ground including underground stone" idea was incorrect. Same thing here. Now this wouldn't matter much if it was a rare subject, but again, it was one of the most common topics. You would have me believe that he just happened not to read all of those posts, and only the ones that didn't comment on the issue? It's just not believable, RL. And another point. If stone underground is able to be controlled because it's "ground", what about sand? Sand is normally "ground." Yet Greg clearly said (and we do have quotes for this much, if not the specific one that settled that discussion in the Official Elements Topic) that sand is controlled by neither. Here, again, is one of them: This also implies another big reason they wouldn't have wanted to include Stone in Earth while having Stone also separate -- if you want something to confuse the fans even more than they already are, that's probably one of the top picks. Thanks for clarifying. How does it not? One large stone hits your head. One big piece. One clump of earth the exact same size hits your head. Breaks apart naturally, because it was lots of little pieces. One's rock, one's soil. If the difference was really ground, we would expect a whole different type of answer. He would be saying things more like what you tend to say in describing this idea, being careful to include mentions of Onua/etc. controlling stone if it's underground. The subject has come up as the above quotes show, and the answer always talks about the type of material, and "misses the opportunity" (if it is what was intended) to say "by the way, those stones underground are in Whenua's control, not Onewa" etc. Although it does seem you're inventing a more careful system than the typical Earth = ground myth, which was as far as I recall just a vague notion. To be crystal clear -- you DO have some ground to stand on here because of that. I think it's disproven, and clearly so, but as a matter of principle your having evidently tried to think it through a lot makes it worthy of looking at more closely IMO. (And besides, it's good mental practice and at least we can learn more about how an alternate Bionicle could go... especially great since we actually have one now!) I'm not asking you to answer these challenges in the sense that it's guaranteed there is no answer. You say you've thought this through, so I'm genuinely curious how you would answer these things. And keep in mind that if it were to be canon, and were promoted widely, fans would be asking these things. So answers would need to be possible; the questions shouldn't be just brushed aside. Time allowing, of course. Well, that's okay. I'm confused about your confusion... and generally confused in general. Generally. We've been over this already in past topics recently. But let's go over it again, as it was a bit spread out. Assume for a moment that's really stone (I'm taking it that way for now, but read on). If so, we have two simple explanations: 1) Moviemakers got it wrong. You can't really use "it was in MOL so it must be true" ( ) because in their commentary, they actually thought Mata Nui awoke in their movie. And Greg has pointed out another scene that in his view they DID get wrong in having Onua do something (the lava thing... also discussed previously... I think he's overzealous on that as earth could melt, but maybe he meant that ground was intended to be stone there). Let's pause there. Say they got it wrong? How could that happen? Miscommunication... and here's another thing you don't seem to be considering -- they might fall for the Earth = ground myth too. It kept coming up among fans -- so not that hard to imagine it might come up among the many people who worked on Bionicle too! We've seen that often in G1, different media basically made up their own version of things, without checking what was intended originally or checking with the story team at the time, and put out contradictory things. And often they are simply not story experts, and aren't worried about trying to be. (I should know... I helped consult for the Bionicle Heroes guys for those mask special features... but they never asked for advice in making a canonically plausible story. Of course, they weren't trying to make something to be called canon, and MOL was. But so was MNOG, and Hapka, and various other sources, including MOL when they got other known things wrong.) Point is, whether intending to make canon or not, they were usually more focused on making something entertaining within time and budget constraints that didn't completely frustrate the average fan, not on making everything they did a clue for the hardcore story fans who want everything to fit just right. 2) As discussed before, how do we know pressure from earth above didn't make that rock collapse? That happens all the ground both in real cave-ins and in stories, though in this case Onua would be pushing down on it. (And both of these explanations work; if MOL got it wrong, the scene can still be "salvaged" by this explanation. Nothing in the scene prevents this, which is what we'd need for this to prove your idea. And this assumes that was all actually intended to be rock. Again, it's difficult to animate loose dirt when you can just make a bunch of large pieces (which could be interpreted as tightly packed earth, which if you've ever dug around in gardens with old enough ground or the like you know is pretty common). So relying on an animation for this is very questionable, at best. Much better would be something in a book which is free to describe whatever happened, with the only limits being the word count and suchnot. There's another huge problem with taking an "if it looks that way in media" approach, for this specific example -- you're presumably relying on the argument (at least this is what was argued 'back in the day') that Pohatu says something like shouting Onua's name and then Onua does it instead of Pohatu, which would mean Pohatu couldn't control it, because it was underground. I'm not sure you mean it that way, clarify if not but it sounds that way from some of your word choice, but, the problem is we have that famous scene in MNOG's final battle where, while underground, Pohatu does control stone. And not just making new stone, but moving stone that's part of the cavern. And this was also discussed already -- and as much as people have kept trying to use this one as evidence, I just never got that from it the first time, and plenty of other people didn't either. While I can see how you might think this from the MOL example, knowing this is a "Toa of Earth", and the extreme constraints of a flash animation, I think most people have no problem seeing that as earth. At the very least, "gravels" is speculation. Nobody told us that's what it meant to portray; we just see larger pieces, and whether it's tightly packed clumps or stone, we aren't told. But personally, I think most of the debate on that one has ignored another very possible explanation -- that the floor was stone, and in order to send earth flying up at the Makuta, Onua had to reach lower down past the stone, and force that floor up indirectly, breaking through it. Pohatu finds stone to control (and has no trouble doing so while underground mind you... but hopefully that horse can stop being beat now lol), so we know there's some stone already there. If it's a stone layer, we would expect exactly what we see there, with Onua controlling only dirt directly. And since animations don't worry about flying things moving completely realistically, and could slow down for drama's sake, we wouldn't necessarily wait to see those fall down to be completely realistic, especially not for a flash anim. (Plus, MNOG's makers didn't consult the story team on many other things... while this battle is confirmed canon, that doesn't mean every little detail down to the exact animation choices was meant to be nitpicked. It's possible they, too, fell for the ground myth, but I doubt it.) And there's even the fact that Pohatu is present and is clearly using his power -- how do we know he wasn't working with Onua to control any bits of stone that came out that side too? Don't worry about book examples -- I have most of them and probably should do another review anyways whenever I finish my retelling (which I'm trying to get back to focusing on soon... anywho), and I can keep an eye out for examples. That might be dissappointingly late, but since this does come up so often, I've been thinking this might be one where putting anything relevant in one list could be helpful in the future. Besides. Poor Pohatu and Onua have suffered from this confusion long enough, man. (Of course, a full list of example uses probably still won't entirely settle every related question. Anywho, later.) That's old news -- it was the main focus of the discussion in the Official Elements Topic that I was talking about. I have mentioned this several times; Greg originally went with Stone controlling sand, but changed his mind and made it between the two. I guess you missed this? More accurately, bones says yes, Greg said yes, most people active when Greg was active said yes because he said yes, Greg constantly repeats the hitwith quote that clearly portrays it... and five years after it ended and most people who were active and participating in that subject at the time aren't here anymore, those who are active apparently now mostly say maybe. Why is this so difficult to accept? Even so, it doesn't mean we can't discuss alternate systems, or even try to see how it could be made to fit anyways. That may honestly be the more fun thing to do... Just keep it all in perspective. Yeah?
  13. Well, the earlier quote showed he considered the land route in the movie to be accurate, so there must be a second entrance due to the water flow from the Silver Sea. Apparently the land one they took opened up due to the quake. The other had to already be there due to the VoF backstory's timeline. But where that is, aside from connecting to the Silver Sea, I haven't seen answered. Perhaps this supports it being entirely underwater, and Mavrah had to swim a little to reach it? Perhaps the creatures went there on their own and he followed them... or... something. It would make sense there weren't many above-water openings prior to that point, at least.
  14. I agree, but how does that work if Earth actually isn't a material, but is "ground", and that would justify rock underground becoming Earth? You see the problem? If that was so, then all Onua has to do is pick up one of the rocks underground that you still seem to be saying is in his power, and throw just that. Then he and Pohatu are throwing something identical. Plus, if he picks it up (directly and with his power), then it is not "ground" anymore. So then, it is about the type of material. And you feel two different materials. You don't feel ground versus in the air. It couldn't really be much clearer! And add to this all of what I said about how this was common knowledge often repeated while Greg was active, and fits with this description -- and that it being something about the material fits with every other element, including Ice/Water and Fire/Plasma. The ground idea would make Earth a total exception to how it works for every other element -- and without confirmation; it comes from fans. All of that is why it's an assumption. Not that it matters what you think about a toy's story. But that's why I'm not going to take your idea, 15 years later, as on the same level as that. Make sense? As said before, are there any clear cases where a proven rock is directly being controlled, versus just moved because some "earth" as in dirt is pushing it? And are any of these from canon sources -- since, again, LEGO does put out contradictory sources sometimes. They didn't always communicate well, remember. All specific examples that have been brought up so far have looked easy to explain, and now according to what we were just discussing, apparently it's being conceded that only earthquakes are remaining debatable, though that admittedly wasn't your wording. But as we can see, earthquakes in the literal sense are possible with control over dirt, and possibly more reliably effective. Since both can make them under the longstanding interpretation, they really don't get us anywhere against it, unless Onua were to be shown causing it specifically due to control over Stone. Which would only confuse fans because Pohatu is the Toa of Stone... again... But you can't use this and be consistent with "pick it up", as soil and rocks being part of Onua's control in the ground would make them part of his control while "apart from the ground" there too. Haven't they made rock come up from underground and the like? Of course, what they're doing will end up in the air (or water), because that's where the enemy being attacked is. But then again, all Toa control their material, wherever it is, so far as we've been told, as long as it's in the right state for it. Other than bringing rock up from underground into the air, what else could he do that would test your hypothesis? Seems like that comes around to earthquakes mainly... Although there would be controlling rock in caves, which we have seen him do, and that's technically underground. That example shows another problem. Just what is it that makes rock okay for Onua based on where it is? Contact with air? Elevation? What they feel like thinking of as ground? If Pohatu can control rock while underground, it makes the definition at best very confusing. The problem is, the evidence is there in that often-quoted Greg quote; see the start of this post, and I've been pointing that out all along. That Greg didn't recall saying the quote we lost doesn't change that. He hasn't retconned it by saying "it's actually ground" -- that's coming in 15 years later as speculation. I've already been over why my memory isn't going to matter on this one, but to review. It was a discussion about which one sand falls into, which mattered for a factlist, so I was focused on it. Many other people were following it (in the Official Elements Topic). Greg weighed in about particle size and put it in between. Since it fit with his other quotes like his "hit you with it" thing, there was no reason to doubt it, etc. Everybody active in there at the time then began talking about it as fact from then on. And as the topic kept coming up through all those years, I was being constantly reminded of it over all that time. Evidently almost everybody else has forgotten now, but that's to be expected. But for me, it's just not plausible that somehow suddenly I could be flipping it all backwards in my memory. But it's easy to settle. If somebody really thinks "Stone is in Onua's control", just go ask Greg right now. I think we can all guess the lines his answer will take. Zox, that all looks right on, with one exception -- to be fair, we do think of stones within the earth as sometimes counting as "earth". An "earthmover" for example will be expected to move loose stones inside the soil too. And "earth" in the sense of land could include bedrock. It's really more than two definitions. Earth the planet is definitely not the one, but any of the other three could be valid. (But only type of material fits with how Toa elements work, so still being Earth regardless of where it is, so far as we know.)
  15. No, no. Sentrakh was the existing power I meant when I said it wasn't new to the Bionicle universe. It's meant to be the same thing, just with specifics on how its timing works, and the mission thing to keep that relatively tamed in case somebody wears it for a massive amount of time. The type of undeath itself (depending on the injuries) would be like Sentrakh's; neither alive nor dead. (Unless perhaps the brain really was obliterated but somehow the face and mask stay... but that's so unlikely it's almost not worth bothering to mention, heh.)
  16. That's true, but I don't recall any source saying they need to, and pretty much every story with magic powers of any kind does that; it's a psychological thing. We're used to controlling things with our hands, so for example a Jedi like Yoda will raise a hand, even though clearly it's the mind that is actually directing the force. It can help focus the mind since it feels natural. But few of these stories, if any, actually say it's needed. If it was intended as a rule, I'd think it would have been said somewhere. I'm also confused about your question about their mind. You don't think they need to make coded hand signals to tell the element what to do, do you? Whether they have to move a little or not, the mind is definitely directing what actually happens. And since it is, requiring motion too seems unnecessary. RL, we've been over this. It isn't assuming, it's what we were told long ago, and backed up constantly by his 'hit with both' explanation, and was common knowledge, often discussed while he was very active here. You shouldn't be surprised that that's going to take precedence over your own ideas, as great as it is that you're being inventive, especially five years after it ended when most people who were active back then have left. It's nothing against your interpretation on its own merit -- as you've been clarifying, it's actually shaping up to sound pretty good, though still confusing on some points like the hit with both thing (I would still like to hear how you handle that, if you have time ). Just keep it in perspective, okay? And do not use it as a reason to insult people, me or otherwise. You've done this twice now, so I'm going to make this an actual official warning. Remember you agreed on joining not to troll, which this continues to look like. Please behave more like this: (But, forgiven. And I don't really mind, personally... it's just, it's my job to enforce that rule, and it's looking like it needed said.)
  17. Well lookatthis. I was going through the Greg topic for RS quotes to actually try to make that new RS topic... and I stumbled on this, which I must have read once but it must not have sunk in: So, apparently the Mask of Undeath would actually delay your body's teleportation up to the Red Star until the effect stopped. So that time delay isn't the only factor (and having the mission limitation proves to have been wise even in the MU). (Whether the Tryna would or not, I'm unsure, but I'd think it would -- which, considering it would only work if somebody wearing that mask was around when you died, could make it a murder-encouraging mask power. Normally you wouldn't find non-Rahi corpses laying around that died a long time ago. Although just the Rahi use is probably enough to make it useful.)
  18. [Edit: See below. You were probably referring to the part in the last quote here.] Uh, if it's out of a Toa's range, what's it matter which element it is? Unless you are indeed thinking of Onua applying indirect pressure to the fault the way I described... But unless he needs to bring down a whole island, why not just shake the ground under the enemy's feet directly? And the fault thing depends on there happening to be a high stress point close enough anyways, which would be unlikely enough on Earth, but where in the Bionicle settings would it be even close to feasible? On Mata Nui, there's a whole giant robot in the way, though maybe fractures in the bedrock of the island could do a bit of that... In the MU, we don't know that there are any faults to be stressed. It seems unlikely. In a future scenario on Spherus Magna, though, maybe. Would probably work for Okoto too. That doesn't make sense -- elemental power over that material means he can move it around, including shaking it. And "dirt" IS the concept of "earth" as in "earthen" etc. The word means multiple things in English, so multiple concepts. Bionicle uses the one where you can pick "earth" up and throw it, and it feels different than picking up a rock and throwing it -- so it's earth versus rock whether in the ground or not. And if there's a rock underground, can Pohatu control it, or not? Okay now I'm even more confused. Was there a case of this in-story I'm forgetting? I thought we were talking about the use of elemental power. He certainly could do that pretty well with a Pakari, though, granted. Well, that term normally means moving down, not vibrating back and forth. Again, has he ever been near any? (Prior to SM... I'm presuming there are some there, though I don't recall it being confirmed.) You mean using the dirt to channel to the stone? And that because there's dirt in the way, Pohatu's power would be blocked? It's not a bad idea, but I don't recall anything from Bionicle to suggest it. Where are you getting it? (And you still have the problem that once the power reaches it, it's stone and we have a Toa for that already.) If channeling along their own material is a thing, and if having a different element in the way blocks or dampens control of your element, this would suggest Onua and Pohatu would need to work together to make a real-life-style quake via a fault. Or, again, maybe Onua indirectly doing it while still controlling only the dirt. But I doubt Pohatu's power would be blocked at all. My impression has always been it's just a matter of range, although normally I think they focus on what they can see (including Onua).
  19. And anybody standing on it. Isn't that what this was used for when it was used in-story? (Although off the top of my head, I don't even specifically remember when this was used if ever. I recall it was mentioned in one of the old bios as something he could do, but usually he uses more efficient attacks.) It is if it's intense enough, for anything standing on it. Depends on what his goal for it is -- to mess up the footing of an enemy he's fighting, or bring down all structures on an island? (I'm not sure if Onua Mata could do the latter, but he could definitely do the former... and Onua Nuva probably could do both.) But what do you have in mind with the fault? Maybe it would be best to get more specific there. If you mean controlling the rock directly, how would that not be Pohatu's power? Wouldn't you say Pohatu can already do that, so having Onua do it too wouldn't work? (However, Onua could, if the fault stress was near enough to some earth, make the earth push against the rock to add stress and tip it over the edge that way.)
  20. Wait a minute. Are you actually trying to suggest they don't have elemental powers?! What's the point, then, of worrying about which elemental power is shaking what? And yes, real earthquakes, in an area of dirt, are caused by stone. Indirectly. If shaking the dirt wouldn't cause any problem, then whether it's indirect or direct is completely irrelevant, RL. Edit: Except in a way that makes earth more likely, that it's closer and less restricted, as already mentioned. And why are you repeating basics we all know and already discussed about plates?
  21. I doubt it would cause much friction heat, though that's an interesting idea -- but as for "shaky footing", how is that not what earthquakes do? That can be "shaky buildings" too, keep in mind (as in knocked down, etc.). And if that's your concern, causing it by stone would (other than the high-stress fault breaking mentioned before) be even harder in an earthen area, as it's farther away, so the loose dirt would dampen it, and hold the stone down anyways to make it harder to shake. The dirt is on the surface so doesn't have either problem. I don't know what the last line means. Could you clarify?
  22. 1) The Kestora didn't care. They dissected people at will, etc. -- because they didn't get the "full sapience" update everybody in the MU did. They also didn't seem to be worth much at engineering as they never did figure out how to fix the "Sendback" teleporter, even though they apparently wanted to (as that was part of their job). 2) Just FTR, we never did find out as far as I heard whether the RS itself or the Kestora ran the Toa-izer or the motions with respect to constellations. 3) I don't recall that (now?), but he may have gone back and forth on that too at first. BTW, this is getting way too off-topic here.
  23. Okay? Then out of curiosity, what did you mean by the last bit in the previous post about "has to be rock"? RL -- I take it you assumed it was manipulation of stone? What's so incredible about it? Most of the time, 'earth' is what people are standing on, after all, and if you had the ability to control it, surely that's easily possible. Wouldn't assuming it's stone even though there's a different Toa whose element is Stone be the really "incredible" thing? O__o
  24. It's pretty simple -- smarter Rahi will find food better, and outsmart the dumb brute types that try to eat them more often (and possibly even outfight them if they fight more strategically). Keep in mind many of the Rahi that were common on Mata Nui were pretty monstrous on their own, to the point that Makuta used them as his "army" for a thousand years there -- and the Makuta in general designed those Rahi, so it makes sense he would be using the ones that were designed very well, and ended up out-competing various other Rahi they had also designed, many of which were probably already very vicious anyways (especially anything made by Mutran, heh).
  25. No, this was the answer he gave as a post in the old forums in the Official Elements Topic, which was lost when the archives were lost. It was in answer to a discussion I was participating in at the time, so I always remembered it. Unfortunately, nobody recorded it that I've been able to dig up so far.
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