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bonesiii

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Everything posted by bonesiii

  1. It only works in the MU, and apparently certain places in the RS itself (if memory serves). I don't offhand recall it ever being said otherwise, so not sure that was a retcon; I recall it being a major unknown for a while that was finally pinned down. Could be misrememberifying.
  2. 1) See Spi's post. 2) As for how they got 'sequestered' on Kumu in light of your point here I'm not sure, but keep in mind the Rahi that were already most common probably were so because they had a good balance of traits that made them adaptable and dependably surviving dangers. They were no pushovers, in other words. And the Visorak's main purpose in mutating seems to be more to subdue than to just change any old way, so making their victims even more dangerous in general seems unlikely -- perhaps more immediately dangerous if you happen to get into a fight with one but less talented at general survival in competition with the "stable" kinds? That would explain their fleeing the main island for Kumu. Or maybe the Turaga somehow made that happen, but that seems unlikely. Anyways, if their minds were messed up like the Hordika's were (well... in a different way, though, because the Hordika mainly became animalistic and these are already animals ), they might not be the cleverest creatures in the world anymore, yanno? Many might not have fled through the tunnels because they just weren't smart enough anymore. Kind of "dumb brutes". 3) The Rahaga had a thousand years to clear them out at that point, so not really.
  3. Greg said the reason sand can't be controlled is its particles are too big to count as Earth. They're in between the maximum particle size for Earth and minimum (AKA pebbles) for Stone. So, clay for example is within Earth's power, even though it doesn't contain humus (dead plant matter).
  4. Assuming they happened to know the big secret about their world traveling through space. (Of course, if they knew a way out, they might have witnessed this, and went back to think about how to deal with it.) Edit: And assuming they focus on "getting back inside" as their main objective, which if you realize you're suffocating, it probably would become even if you did have an important mission out there. But that probably means whatever that other objective is would be abandoned rather than being a mere hurdle to getting inside.
  5. Earth Toa making earthquakes isn't manipulating stone -- it's making the dirt vibrate.
  6. I don't see what's confusing about sword sticking out of Barbossa making him harder to kill? Edit: Okay, it sounds like you're saying you're interpreting the "last objective" as ANY goal no matter how small, so defeating one bad guy in front of you would become your objective. I definitely didn't see it that way, but if your mission was to defeat Makuta, for example, obviously any challenges that come up along the way to doing that, it will do what it can (whatever would logically be possible) along the way, but you wouldn't take on new missions afterward. And if the brain was there, as mentioned earlier (which is likely), it would draw on any knowledge you had that would help along the way. The idea of including the mission limitation was to help add to the balance as without the RS, if you charged it up for millenia, you might be undead for millenia (assuming nothing else disables you), which IMO would have been going too far. As it turns out, in most situations the RS will already handle this, but we didn't know that at the time, and it still would come into play outside the MU.
  7. I don't think they're outlandish -- we have control over minds, over elemental powers, etc., and biomechanics being such a theme makes it an obvious connection to make to add to that list. Undeath had been featured before as well, and the theme made sense with Karzahni and the look of the mask. And unless you can prove they didn't have similar ways of inspiring the other masks (or show that this somehow matters), that's just speculation about "aren't sound concepts." Most authors I've heard talk about the sources of their inspiration agree it can come from anything, like the shape of a tree or two ideas they happened to have at the same time and combine them. Most fiction is apparently imagined this way, so far as I've heard writers say! The powers are sound IMO, what's subjective is WHICH of the many possible sound powers happened to get picked, and as the shapes we saw are basically a random selection from the shapes that would exist, even totally random power assignments would be technically valid. Except it seems to me that maskmakers would probably want the shapes to somehow evoke the meaning of the power. Speed looks streamlined, for example, Kaukau looks like scuba gear, Shielding has a "ring" shape for the mouth, etc. -- or the Mask of Aging looks like an old guy. Again, did you not read my whole post? I mentioned the repulsive version was from MNOG (it also showed something clearly going through it when attacked from behind even though it was activated, which the MOL version doesn't look likely to do but wasn't shown so unclear; based on the original description, sounds like probably attacks would go through, but either theory could fit). I don't understand the question in the second sentence here. Are you asking where the original description was? It was one of the original comics, but probably was also in set bios and the like. Assuming it hits your head or maims you enough before you overtake him. But let's say somebody attacks a Hau user completely by surprise from the back. Of course all these powers have downsides, so there's always ways to defeat them. Say somebody sees Vakama's shadow, etc. Again, most of them were not my ideas, or were only slightly modified from ideas that weren't. That's the whole point of choosing major themes from existing canon! Edit: For what it's worth, there's no need to apologize. You often don't seem to realize it, but I and staff in general encourage criticism, as it often is constructive. I think much of your criticisms don't work, but when you actively think critically, you'll probably eventually find real problems like your good point about Mask of Fusion. That's why I always tried to keep criticism topics open whereas before I was staff they usually got closed due to flaming, etc. I just think you need to think critically more "in reverse" too -- criticize the criticisms, and again and again until the most reasonable idea emerges. With practice it will become almost automatic and you'll see things highly accurately, in my experience.
  8. Just to be crystal clear, it's canon that he invented whatever it was that made that whirlpool as a defensive trap, and the theory that it's a chamber beneath with a trapdoor is the best fit as far as I can tell for how it works. It simply explains exactly what happened there with normal physics etc. So would a deadfall trap. Unless reset (or water pumped out, perhaps evaporating over time, etc.). I wouldn't be surprised if he put a pump there too, but who knows? Or, if it does connect to another tunnel that eventually feeds into the water cycle system, it wouldn't be one-use. And I don't see how you get "lame" -- without elemental powers or something, it looked pretty much like they were doomed. And I was thinking if it didn't switch off they would probably be doomed afterward anyways as the other side would get them, but it switched off at that moment (implying it didn't have to, and Mavrah just assumed they were dead; if he'd been more paranoid, they probably would be). Thanks for clarifying about the Manas. I do vaguely recall something about crab Rahi now. But Bionicle has so many, and I was skimming for water composition/current details, so must have missed it. (I'm just wondering why I have zero memory of noticing it before, but with me, that's not hard to explain lol.)
  9. I covered this in my previous post... Did you read my whole post? Those would be the optional summaries of those masks, but other details about them, especially about the rules for what the ghost is like, what happens if the body dies, etc. were asked about by fans. I don't even remember what was established for that last one, lol. For Hau, for example, whether it was a wall as MOL showed or deflection as MNOG was a question, etc. Biomechanics is pretty close, which is why I call that one fairly complex, but it could still be condensed in the same way things like Hau were by not mentioning details like what the wall for the shield is like. The BS01 version is: The only essential parts are that they control machinery mentally, and can somewhat affect the mechanical parts of biomechanical beings. The rest are included so Greg wouldn't have to run into the problem I mentioned when questions would inevitably come up as they did for other masks. Conjuring: This one is a good comparison to Adaptation, which needed some examples to give people a sense of it, except these examples aren't really as needed as with Adaptation per se. Adaptation can be summed up as "makes you adapt to your surroundings physically", and Conjuring can be "magic spells (that mess up your mind if mispoken)". Honestly, I don't see it. When I invented them I realized they were right in line with the sorts of things Bionicle had used in other mask powers already -- if they weren't, I wouldn't have proposed them! And again, that's also part of why I used so many that had already been major themes in Bionicle, or powers that had been featured, like Aging, but not as masks. Are they different, though? Of course -- they couldn't be the same powers, obviously, so there had to be some differences! It still seems more likely you're unwittingly applying different standards to them because you know they're fanmade. You say you had a problem with them, and I believe you, but you're clearly using different arguments for them versus what you are using for canon. For canon you're simply opting for the summaries (that are just as valid for these), and ignoring the details that were established elsewhere, and here you're just doing the opposite. It doesn't work. That's fair. At the time, I don't think the Mind Control clarification had been established yet, so what was and was not "deemed immoral by Toa" was seemingly subjective, especially with Repulsion being immoral yet Levitation not being. Knowing that about Komau in hindsight, I would agree this either should be immoral or shouldn't be allowed to do that. I don't recall the timing on that one, but the inspiration was Kaita mainly, whether I had that in mind too or not. Note: The Mask of Fusion does actually enable strong minds to resist the fusion, so it kind of had that... Still, Mind Control apparently allows total resistance, so yeah. Which is it? The mask is either close to useless, or not -- it can't be both that AND Gary Stu at the same time. (Or balanced.) And I'm not sure what you're asking if it isn't answered by what I said before about the user probably becoming even more dangerous as there's no need anymore to avoid wounds that would normally kill but not maim or break/knock off the mask. Another Pirates analogy works here -- Captain Barbossa with a sword sticking out of him isn't killed. If you were killed by drowning, can't drown twice. Poison becomes useless, etc.
  10. I remember that, but technically that doesn't disprove that it's a tool power, like a mask power doesn't touch things necessarily. (Not that I would even have thought of that if the other image hadn't seemed to imply it due to touching.) Still, probably right.
  11. Might wanna put that in somewhere, because I couldn't find anything that confirms this. I'm pretty sure it's in the Official Red Star topic, and probably the BS01 page? *checks* Well, oddly it's not on BS01's RS page, or the Rahi page as far as I noticed. [Edit: And hm... I guess it doesn't seem to be in the RS topic. That thing needs to be restarted anyways; it's still in the format of a "discovering what we know" topic but now we know most of that so a factlist would work now.] Yes, though jsut like the rest of their body, it is biomechanical.Has that been recently confirmed or something? I seem to recall Greg might have weighed in finally, but for most of this time we have not known what the brains are, just that they have them. (And after all, how could they not lol?) Actually many of the original and other LEGO-sourced masks had complications too, and Hau is one of them; that it only works if you see the attack coming. I guess you mean that it can be fairly simplified that way, and it can, but that wasn't how they described it. And they all had those "intricate" details as well; they just weren't put in the short summaries of the powers but were seen in story portrayals and clarified by Greg in later posts. My including those details for these was obviously necessary as they were the most obvious questions people would naturally have that for other masks Greg would be able to answer on his own, but not so for these. *shrugs* There's mind control with its clarification about not doing things against their will which wasn't even part of the original wordings that were released, there's telekinesis with "increases in power with focus", there's Huna with shadow and being audible, or Volitak with shadow and not being completely invisible, and that's not even getting into masks like Fate or Spirit which got even more complicated (I would include Elda except I think it actually needed even more complexity to be more useful as mentioned earlier). For the fan-made ones, we have: -Adaptation -- a bit complex, but doesn't count as it's an exact copy of a previously canon power -Aging -- simple -Biomechanics -- a bit complex, but it had to be to logically work with being a mask power and calling on this major Bionicle theme -Conjuring -- moderately simple -- the concept was super-simple (magic spells, and that's a well-known concept so yeah), but some people have oddly had trouble with getting really technical in their questions on this, but it's really just "temporarily makes powers you describe accurately" -- Greg also added a backlash thing, showing that he didn't see keeping things super-simple as a rule -Fusion -- simple -Healing -- moderately simple (not one of mine, but the power description does happen to be an exact match to one from my fanfics by the same English name) -Incomprehension -- simple -Rebounding -- simple -Sensory Aptitude -- simple -Undeath -- probably the most complex, but still simple (animates your dead body to seek your goals, for the same time you spent wearing it while alive) So, I don't think you have a case. Some were more complex than the others, but made sense to be, and complexity varies with the other powers anyways (and wouldn't we expect variety?).
  12. Pohatu isn't quite the same, as he can apparently control sand (or maybe just his tools do; I heard someone say that a while back but dunno).
  13. Don't you think he'd be smart enough to put the lever above that level? Like, in that "window" where he would have seen them going past in the river? (So same level as the air above the river.) If he's making this thing intentionally, I don't see how that's a plausible scenario, unless you're completely joking. If the goal is to flood that theoretical cavern, I think he knows that he can't breathe underwater etc. I don't see the connection? Again, it was clearly established that Mavrah made this as a trap, however it works, and we saw that deadfall trap too, so they're there because he wants them to be, to keep people out if they're uninvited. Carvings on the wall are irrelevant to that. (He may have made them, or they made predate him, but I don't see why it would mean anything about the specific type of trap he made?) And what do you mean about flooding? Again, I don't see what that has to do with what trap he made since it WAS flooded (and since we already agree the trap makes a whirlpool in water somehow or another). And since this is the route he brought his sea Rahi along, whether it was originally intended to be flooded or not, it must have been by the time he brought them here. ?? Was my previous post still not clear that he explicitly tells us that he made the whirlpool as a trap? And why would it affect the river level? The river would continue flowing downhill to the lake and beyond, whether this was there or not; it would just come in faster for a short time when he flipped it. (And since the theoretical cavern would then fill up, assuming he didn't connect it to another long tunnel going into the water cycle system eventually, it would stop affecting the water soon after.) You are confusing me. Re: Greg quotes: Well, somehow or another Silver Sea water was clearly getting into the river just beyond that point, perhaps an underground river just under it (so two exits one above the other), or another entrance to the left or right they didn't happen to take. I always thought that was just a movie mistake the book corrected, though. And I don't know where the Manas thing comes from. There's no Manas in this book as far as I recall. There were in Karzahni, though, which also is connected to Metru Nui's dome by a different tunnel (but one seemingly unlikely for them to cross). I wonder where that was established that "we know" it? Maybe just a previous answer?
  14. Greg retconned that, T. This was established long ago in the official Greg topic.
  15. Three notes I had no time before to elaborate on from previous post (re: Undeath): 1) About the head -- it was never established if the brain had to be completely or even technically a little intact; if somebody died like Inman on Lost (blow to the back of the head), as long as the mask stayed on, would the body still be able to be animated? That is, does the mask puppet the muscles, or does it send signals into the brain that then control the muscles? (Or does it not even need muscles?) This wasn't established. 2) Obviously the Makuta example has its serious limitations, and if the mask does need muscles or intact brain (or in their case intact gaseous antidermis doing whatever it does to make the armor move), a dead Makuta will not work. Plus they tend to "leak out" long before they die, so the chances of animating the armor would seem slim. Prior to their becoming gaseous, though, it would work great for them. 3) I realized later the invention timing argument may not work, because its shape was chosen from a Matoran version in Karzahni, and Matoran stopped going there early in history, so if the RS's time delay started after that, that wouldn't make sense. Continuing with replies: The problem with this argument is that the Mask of Life gave the Toa Mahri their masks. That works two ways -- either it was meant mainly as a challenge to deal with largely useless masks as a test, or the Mask saw something about that situation where it felt those powers were warranted (such as specifically what types of sea monsters would be likely to be called). It could be a bit of both, but given the others' powers -- even Matoro -- it seems more like the latter. But it's definitely a gamble mask. (At least on its own. Summoning plus Rahi Control could be very useful if you have a Suva or other mask storage, as Rahi Control presumably can't summon from afar.) At this point it looks more like you're just listing masks with downsides, which is every mask... surely nobody actually thinks these two having that downside renders them useless or nearly so? That one is indeed confusing, but maybe it helps them prepare to deal with that event once it occurs? What's in the vision can't be changed, but maybe it can give info useful for stopping other bad things that weren't in the vision. As far as I know that wasn't established (if it increases the time delay). It might have been; I think there was some discussion of the idea, but I don't recall if Greg weighed in. For my part, I would see it as not doing so, but I could also see a case being made for it. It has been theorized that the RS knows you're dead by a particular signalling device in your body ceasing to work. If this animates that as well as the body, it could indeed delay the teleportation (assuming that theory is right). Whatever floats your boat. But if you mean that by virtue of being fanmade it's bad (your wording seems unclear to me), that would call the criticism into serious question. At least one was actually a canon power and many others were inspired by major Bionicle themes I didn't see the same critics complaining about before, like biomechanics, fusion, or rebounding. I strongly suspect if these same powers had been given to us the way things were done in 2001, many of the criticisms would not have happened (some would, though; it's not like canon powers are exempt from criticism lol!). But as the canon didn't seem to care to establish them on their own, and nobody else seemed to be taking the initiative, and we also were trying to make a bunch of masks for the EM, it seemed best to "kill two birds with one stone" and act on the idea I'd had a while back to establish them. In hindsight, should have run a contest or something, yadda, but the idea hadn't been floated, so it didn't happen that way, and Greg didn't mind, so yeah. Realistically, if we hadn't moved forward on it, they probably would still be unestablished shapes... which you might be okay with, but I saw it as a problem considering that in 2001 there was much more care poured into every shape having a power -- many quite odd and questionable; boundary-pushing, etc. Yes and no -- the power of Rahi Control came first as a Kraata power, but was turned into a mask later. (I'm not sure on the exact timing of its being turned into a mask, though.) Common misconception (it also lets you see ghosts basically... not sure why), but even with that, it was pretty odd. Although let's be fair -- the "extremely useful rare event" thing comes into play there, even if Hahli seemingly didn't actually win the day because of it. However, I always thought it should have been able to detect any object you really, really want to find (so that you'd put up with the headaches). This argument definitely doesn't work, since Rahi aren't revived, and the Mask of Life's picking it for Matoro was outside the MU, so the RS couldn't work there even on sapient beings. (Although that does make the mask less useful in the MU.) The inspiration was from that dead-eyed looking Matoran in Karzahni. The idea was that Karzahni gave him that mask to emphasize what life was like there. And with the "sunglasses" on that Matoran's case of it, looking like a standing dead person, the power was a natural fit to it. They aren't mutually exclusive. Undeath is only supposed to be worn occasionally when you're pretty sure you're safe. Hau or the like would be the normal mask for somebody who worried about dying. But if that failed, Undeath could mean the difference, if they had a mission they saw as more important than their life (or if they were just really spiteful due to being bad guys etc.). I never really saw it as making them a "shambler" per se -- maybe the Tryna would, and I doubt it would have them move in as clever ways than if their sapient brain was directing their actions, but I did definitely see it as calling on knowledge in their brain if it WAS intact. (If not, then probably shambler would be a good description, but destruction of the brain is just as likely to destroy the mask or the face it would attach to anyways, so moot.) In fact, since you no longer need to keep your body alive, as long as you avoid limbs being sliced off, the mask being knocked off, etc. it might actually make you a more ferocious fighter, or dangerous even if a bit slower perhaps, as your body wouldn't be as cautious as you were when alive, and if a "kill both or stalemate" situation came up, the enemy might die whereas previously not. (Or be defeated in general.) Not really -- Matoro's mask is deemed immoral but when the Mask of Life gave it to him, he didn't demand to get a powerless spare from the Matoran or anything. If they had a vital mission, they might make an exception for that one. (Hence part of why I picked that power. It was meant to be more of a gray area mask than a clearly immoral one.)
  16. Lol, this just never dies. Of course it would -- that's part of the intentional downside, and a natural effect of how we said it would charge up. But it could be countered by spending more time charging it. I never saw it as draining that fast, but while weird exceptions like that might happen (say, if you were stranded on the other side of Aqua Magna and had some mission on Mata Nui; your dead body would have no choice but to swim that distance and fail on the way), they would be even rarer than use of this mask would be. That could happen, yeah. On the other hand, they don't need to breathe anymore, so the old Pirates of the Carribbean 'who needs boats?' (yeah I know, that wasn't the quote...) thing could come into play. Well that would obviously be the most likely situation for it. The idea was mainly that they could help their clan win a battle they died during, so their death alone wouldn't mean the loss of the battle. That would presumably make it fail. So would that. Whoooooa there. There's WAY more ways to die than those... But the ole stab was what I mainly had in mind, if a bit gruesome for Bionicle canon (but it could happen). There's also poison, suffocation, drowning, burned enough to kill but not obliterate, etc. (many of these are things you might likely die from in a world with elemental powers). No, the RS fixes or replaces the body, and we didn't know about that back then anyways. It could also work for Makuta, who the RS doesn't help, and work outside the MU, etc. Also, the RS clearly has a time delay between death and teleporting up, of unknown length, during which this mask can do its job. (That does give a strong case against anybody wasting too much time charging this up, though, in the canon universe. None of that would apply to the EM, namely Warzone where it was primarily intended for.) We don't have any evidence that the time delay is a result of breakdown, although it's certainly possible. If not, then it was intended for that time and/or for exceptions like Makuta (and since Toa consider it immoral anyways, they're prime candidates for who would want this). If not, it was invented later -- simple! Anyways, the mask certainly has much less use than the kinds you would use while alive anytime you needed -- but that doesn't mean it couldn't exist or wouldn't be worth having available, and as you would have quiet times during which you could switch to it to charge it up, it balances out. Remember, the idea of those masks wasn't entirely to make more of the "most useful masks ever" but to have better variety among the 'infinite' possible powers... and powers like this that could be extremely useful in the right circumstances and possibly save the day (or make it a lot worse for good guys since it's immoral ). It's a false premise that every mask we hear about has to be the most averagely balanced in its usefulness etc. Hm, I don't recall hearing that. Is that confirmed? I figured it worked telepathically or something, so while for written it would probably need to be a known language (known to who or what I dunno, but I can think of ways to make that work), for spoken (Great) while talking to an actual person, it seems very plausible (unless this is an absolute rule?). And... out of time... More later probably.
  17. No, because Mavrah says he invented whatever made it work, and it shuts off instantly the moment they pass the whirlpool. I'm not sure how the current getting faster implies that the water was going down something. It would have to be going down after the whirlpool because the Lhikan was drifting down the river, but not before. (It's like a bedsheet attached to a gear that is moving really fast - the sheet is going to move rapidly around the gear. If I have a model boat on the sheet at some point, from that perspective the "current" of the sheet is going to increase, bringing it towards the gear. Same deal here - only the "sheet" is the water.) The whirlpool is pulling them in, so of course the current is going to increase - has nothing to do, in my mind, with it being a drain or not. It sounds like I haven't been clear about what the book describes, probably because it's fresh in my mind, heh, so let's try again. The whole river width for quite a ways ahead of the whirlpool suddenly got much, much, much faster, yet they had plenty of time for conversations, etc. -- and it was pulling them in from the current, not just spinning them around fast.* Just spinning the water would move you around in a circle fast if you were already close, but the water upriver wouldn't be affected noticeably. To get that effect you need to suddenly make the water ahead move out of the way really fast, and falling down a hole is the simplest way. And that would, of course, make a whirlpool as a side effect. Anyways, this is all moot because it was clearly established this wasn't the lowpoint anyways. It doesn't really matter what this was... but I don't see why there would be resistance to it being water going down that caused it, as that's the obvious simple explanation. Unless there was some kind of elemental absorption equvalent, but the other trap Mavrah made was a simple deadfall trap, so simple mechanical principles are almost certainly what we should presume here. It sounds like he found an empty cavern below it and built a trapdoor that he controlled, and when he saw them go past, tripped the door, until he figured they would have hit the whirlpool, then he closed it. Probably had Kralhi do any heavy lifting needed for it, or maybe some of the smarter Rahi (and same for the deadfall). *Of course, once you get close enough in a whirlpool, gravity and the floating-toward-center effects will pull you in, but they had so much time to talk and the Nokama bits imply a longer approach, that it seems clear they were well upriver of it. They weren't yet in the whirlpool, just headed toward it, and that's what a big drain would do. Picture a hole suddenly being punched in the bottom of an almost horizontal pipe. The upriver water near it will want to rapidly flow out the hole. (And some downriver, but that was prevented from harming them by it turning off at that instant.)
  18. The whirlpool drain theory was debunked later in the notes. Well, maybe Mavrah made a temporary drain somehow, maybe by collapsing a chamber below the river, but it wouldn't make sense for him to have turned on a giant-robot function, for example (unless for some reason it doesn't affect his thoughts at all when we get his perspective shortly after). Edit: To the last bit, it doesn't look like it could just be churning the water up, because the whole current in that part of the river got much faster, implying water was going down something. So, a drain of some sort, but clearly not the one theorized as the lowpoint between the from-Silver-Sea downward river and the from-Aqua-Magna downward river.
  19. It wasn't -- see my edit just added to above post (before you posted, so I didn't DP ).
  20. I meant about the water type. I would tend to assume nobody can have trouble with water flowing up. Then again, I can't relate to having trouble with spatial arrangement in the first place, so maybe I'm just assuming that. Edit: Scratch that. There's no trouble. I just read through it and compiled quotes, and neither the current nor the water type is a problem. Here's my notes (which were typed as I read): -------------- Alright, folks, have some time to spare I thought I wouldn't, and I've been curious about those quotes (and nobody else seems to be leaping to the task ), so decided to skim through the book again and keep track of what it says and doesn't say. First relevant quote, shortly after the start and just before the fork where Matau introduces the "left or right" gag, on page 12: Next page: No problem here as we obviously expect this to be protowater given the above quote (or a mix if the old lake = down theory is wrong). No clear mention of current yet, but Matau does simply turn the boat to go this way, so presumably they're going downriver. (And obviously the perception thing I mentioned will come into play in any mention of this unless tasted or something, but since that probably affects everything there should be no further need to mention it.) Holdsec. At the sight of the creature causing the heat, it says: Okay, so apparently it IS moving on its own power. I was expecting Nokama to change the current temporarily. I guess we can't make anything of the current earlier, then. 15: Lemme interrupt to note, this is almost immediately after leaving the boiling tunnel, so I presume that's the source of the heat... but not sure why she wouldn't expect it. Anywho, next sentence says: Could this have been intended as a clue it was actually H2O/a mix? If so, it would strongly imply that Greg was intentionally having them mis-identify it as liquid protodermis... but also would make the lake = down theory highly questionable. So far, the level course makes that possible, though, if the current is actually against them and slight, but I'm presuming our old understanding it was with them was based on real quotes... Reading on... On page 18, Vahki powers make Matau think they have to go back, and he does a U-turn, or starts to. Apparently he believes either direction is just as possible for the craft (consistent with its level and the robotic legs doing some sort of motion that works enough like swimming), but the Command power could have made him wrongly think that. Okay, that's apparently answered next -- Matau is pinned by Nuju, and that leaves the craft: Apparently it had quite a lot of propulsive power. Okay, moving on then... Oddly, on page 23, Nokama dives into the "murky" river. I'm not sure what caused the difference from its earlier clarity, but she seemd to take it for granted. 26: Confirmation that the walking mechanism is being somehow repurposed for propulsion, rather than some sort of extra engine. Not surprising, though. On page 28, the current gets its first mention, but because it has suddenly increased in the same spot where moments before it wasn't noteworthy and it's quickly established this is the result of a whirlpool ahead; apparently a hole in the floor letting water out. (I forget as I read if we found out what caused this... it could be evidence for a theory I had earlier that if the lake is down, this is part of a natural water level maintenance system for the Silver Sea and this is it triggering due to a mix of normal water flooding in and reaching the occasional tipping point. Readin' on...) The current is clearly shown to be with them here, but the whirlpool is ahead of them, so again, not surprising, but this part may imply the current is in the same direction as previously but just much stronger: Nokama fails to make a strong enough countercurrent to rescue the transport, and speculates that the same people who made a trap she has just spotted ahead (she'd been scouting when she dove into the "murky" water) might have caused this. That is probably all Greg intended... still, could be that trap was, and this isn't but was still made by people in my drain theory. Or maybe her speculation is wrong... Nuju is underwater, lost his mask, Nokama is underwater, saves him and puts his mask back on, he makes ice dome, air somehow appears (no explanation), and then: Proof of tasting. At least pre-lake. (And during a massive current from mostly level water, I guess we can't make much of this. Even if it was somewhat H2O moments before, a lot of Silver Sea protowater probably just came rushing in. Depends on a lot of factors though.) Onewa and Whenua make an earth-rock ramp (lol, irony) and the transport sails over the whirlpool and the current immediately stops. Could be coincidence, but suggests a security system. (Vakama speculates shortly after that somebody could see the approach, but not the part with the whirlpool, and switched it off when they would have reached it, assuming it got them, and unable now to see them after.) Okay, now we get very close to confirmation of direction of current: Could mean 1) the engine is still running and it isn't being steered, or 2) "no sign of life anywhere" means it's completely still, just floating. If 2, current direction confirmed. And if nobody's steering, having it still being propelled would be risky, so I'm guessing it's 2. Okay, a few paragraphs down, they're listening for any sound. Wouldn't work well with engines running I'd think. Mavrah is featured starting on page 42 and confirms in his thoughts that he caused the whirlpool. During a scuffle with a sea creature (still before the lake though), Matau clearly starts the vehicle, so confirmed it was drifting before, ergo current confirmed. On page 48 they enter the lake. Okay, this is off-topic, but I notice that Ahkmou's sphere is clearly said to have been dragged down by a creature. Somehow I always thought it sunk, which I'd thought was a contradiction since the vessel is only floating due to the spheres. How it stays down there afterward I dunno, though, and still a contradiction with movie version which has all the spheres fall off at one point and yet the transport still floats. Aaaanywho. Lotsa Mavrah stuff not relevant... skimming ahead... On page 98, Onewa sinks into the lake, and takes a mouthful of water. Tasting confirmed in lake. Okay, page 107, they start to head back to the transport, so we're about to get to the part where the real questions begin. Matau scouts ahead via flying, and reports: I'm not sure where this is, but it sounds like the current's in the same direction. Moments later, that seems to be confirmed, as they go through some rapids before joining up to the river. So it seems like the tributary clearly went down from the lake, and so did the river to this point. On 109, Matau brings the transport to a stop, so we can confirm propulsion up to that point (expected since they're fleeing), but the rapids and frequent use of "down" still seem to imply a current away from the Silver Sea. Okay, they're stopping to bring down the tunnel. I had thought that happened much later, but they've clearly just barely left the lake. It's mentioned that the tunnel he brought down had been there from "ages past", so it's part of the complex of tunnels connected to the lake. And now that water flow FROM the Silver Sea is cut off, any water would seem to have to be from the Aqua Magna sea above from now on. After a few drama quotes (and oddly apparent proof that Vahki staffs float... didn't see that coming), the chapter breaks, and the transport idles after some tight turns damage the legs. So we can confirm propulsion again, and apparently ever since blocking that tunnel. Any amount of time could have passed between then and now, since with the tunnel blocked, the rest of that journey would be boring. Let's see if anything happens to the direction while idling, though. Okay, this isn't for that, but a few paragraphs down the water level is said to be rising rapidly. So, we have clear confirmation that the water direction is now from the AM side, so it looks like the old theory was only off by placing the lake itself as the lowpoint. It seems the actual lowpoint is somewhere just downriver of the lake, making the lake NOT a result of flooding at all. Perhaps the Silver-Sea leveling theory is right and that drain is under that lowpoint. The transport may have passed it in the frenzy of the battle just before Onewa brings down the roof, and the stone could now be between the drain and the leak from the surface. Or maybe there is no mechanized drain but just natural tunnels that would keep going down for a long time before finally presumably reaching some kind of circulation system. Either way, the old theory is still working with only slight modification. Ah, here we go. While the repairs are going on, Matau scouts again, and now announces enthusiastically that he found the new land, and we get: So if they couldn't make the transport's own propulsion go, they would not have been able to get it out of the tunnel (barring use of elemental powers, esp. Nokama), ergo the current is now against them. And there's no tasting until just after they emerge from the tunnel. Nokama does go into the water briefly before this to carve something on the wall, but no hint of tasting. So... in short, it looks like this has all been much ado about nothing, although it is confusing just after they leave the lake. Then again, Mavrah clearly had his creatures in this lake well before this, so it shouldn't be all that surprising that its level at that point isn't a result of flooding, or not significantly so. No clear sign of what happens to the floodwaters in the time between the crash and Onewa's blockade, but somehow or another a river that looks to have been there all along from the other direction must have been kept from flooding and that probably can only be due to a system of the giant robot, so not drawing attention to that detail makes sense at this time since we weren't supposed to be suspecting that yet. Regardless, there's just barely enough to clearly show the current is in the right direction where it needed to be, and zero relevance to the "liquid protodermis" quotes due to the timing and stated current before that.
  21. Well, he has admitted he has trouble with placement of things related to other things, so it wouldn't be all that surprising if he messed up some of this. I don't get that, but everybody has different strengths and weaknesses. But he certainly does care -- if he didn't, he wouldn't have talked to fans so much etc.
  22. Uh, no? O_o But some of us on here actually liked it. It is a Bionicle discussion forum. You'll run into that occasionally. And for a toy, it certainly rose far above what we'd ever have expected! Edit: And just for the record, as it seems like you honestly aren't aware of it, but your apparent estimation of fan reactions to Bionicle over the years on here is often wildly inaccurate. Sometimes right on the money (like saying 2001 was more popular than the end -- of course, it's well known across most franchises that beginnings usually are, especially ones where the fanbase finds out it was ending early), but I have been watching that closely on here since 2003. The giant robot, for example, was enthusiastically liked; it was one of the highlights of the later years (at least at the initial reveal). You seem to have the impression it wasn't, but that's incorrect. (Also, keep in mind it was central to the whole idea for Bionicle, so even if its reveal had bombed, we would ironically still owe the tropical island to that concept, and they really couldn't know how the reveal would go until they tried it.) Now... can we please get back on-topic? If you're in the mood for general "how good/bad was XYZ in Bionicle?" subjects, it would be best to make one specifically about that.
  23. When I saw the title I thought this would be asking if the masks of Ekimu and Makuta were elemental, which would have been a shrug answer as far as I know, but anywho, this is an nice idea. They certainly could have belonged to a tribe before donning those masks. Could put an interesting twist on future story for the tribe that Ekimu was from... and the tribe that the other guy is from. (As for WHICH tribes, I haven't the foggiest.)
  24. Keep in mind we didn't know that in 2001. Of course, nor did we know how old they were, but we knew they were "older than you" or whatever the exact quote was. It is an interesting choice for a kid's story, especially since they made some of them seem to childlike. I could see kids having lots of different reactions to that -- example of bad, many didn't like constant reminders that there were others older than them, example of good, they could relate ironically well to such super-old characters which could make aging less frightening. (Sorry I don't have time to read the rest of your post now. >_< But posting this already anyways for the below:) Re: Solis-only vs not -- this sounds like something Greg might not have focused on enough for either quote to be reliable. Could we bring this up in the way the Rahi revived or not issue was, and see if he has a reason for one answer over the other? Otherwise either one might be a forgetcon, and on something the actual story didn't really comment on either way. I for one am curious what the actual decision would be if it was focused on. Edit: Regitnui, is it false that a society could be stagnant for that long or not? It seems like at best an untested hypothesis, since we are not that long-lived. But if we were, and we also shared every other trait that Agori/Glatorian are portrayed with, would we? I think that's extremely debatable to say the least. You also seem to suggest that because life that complex does not live so long here, it couldn't in a fictional world, but that's another sweeping negative assumption, and we already are learning a lot of ways it might be done. Somebody did a special in recent years on how it might be done and what life would be like if it was. I think one of the guys from Mythbusters might have been on it, don't quote me on it though. I think it won't likely happen in my lifetime, but to say it's absurd that it could in any hypothetical planet seems like just a guess to me. I'm not sure if this is directly to your point there, as you spent little time on this and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I was thinking about it yesterday before seeing your post anyways -- another factor here is that advancement in the Great Beings' inventions happened before this story starts (before the Core War). If that hadn't been the case, then I could see the plausibility being an issue, but it was. We don't know that lifespans were always that long before that; it could be that their tech was the main difference. (But it's also just as valid that an alien lifeform could have traits we lack that make it, or something close, biologically possible. In fact, as discussed in past topics, the real trick is not so much living beyond a certain point in terms of sci-fi plausibility but how you can get past a point around 10,000 years and yet still have a span at all, as having decay build up that that slight is hard to explain. But that depends on so many factors that aren't established and we can't rule it out either, and some possible mechanisms for that have been discussed, like some sort of multi-"digit" counting method unlike our linear "endcaps".) And with respect, brushing aside elemental powers and yet not accepting the thing we actually do have some idea how it could be possible in terms we actually can begin to grasp right here and right now, does not make sense. Now, this only affects the plausibility point, not the other issue of stagnancy. To that I'll just say that it isn't a new idea in sci-fi. Star Trek TOS had an episode similar to this, a very old society that had indeed stagnated, although I don't think lifespans were involved in that. I think it's a mistake to just assume that possibilities like this couldn't happen in ANY society regardless of the factors! Reading on, it actually looks like you're touching on my GB-influence-on-lifespans idea... but it looks like you're suggesting it is not already in the story? Not confirmed as far as I know, but it seems unlikely it isn't a factor. I don't think they need to be all or mostly robotic for that to work, especially since robotic type things actually tend to wear out faster than biology in real life. I think both for Matoran and Agori, biologic brains at least are essential and with enough genetic repair methods to nearly balance out decay. For Matoran at least, the ability to rebuild pretty much any other part when it wears out works, but for Agori, the same biologic solutions work too, with replacement of implants and armor. But yes, that's yet another valid way the story could have gone. And the GBs did largely leave the picture. (Off-topic: We usually just shorten Agori/Glatorian to "Agori" if it helps, since they're presumably all related. Similar to "Matoran" including Toa... kind of.)
  25. He could have been taking his time in studying them.
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