Jump to content

  • Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Welcome to BZPower!

Hi there, while we hope you enjoy browsing through the site, there's a lot more you can do if you register. The process is easy and you can use your Google, Facebook, or Twitter account to make it even faster. Some perks of joining include:
  • Create your own topics, participate in existing discussions, and vote in polls
  • Show off your creations, stories, art, music, and movies and play member and staff-run games
  • Enter contests to win free LEGO sets and other prizes, and vote to decide the winners
  • Participate in raffles, including exclusive raffles for new members, and win free LEGO sets
  • Send private messages to other members
  • Organize with other members to attend or send your MOCs to LEGO fan events all over the world
  • Much, much more!
Enjoy your visit!

Posted Image


Click to ToggleParticipate in our raffle!

Hi, Guest. Come take a look and participate in our raffle:

Chima 2014 Big Raffle
Chima 2014 New Member Raffle
Chima 2014 Little Raffle

Photo

Various languages in BIONICLE?

matoran agori language species alphabet

  • Please log in to reply
127 replies to this topic

#81 Offline BioGio

BioGio
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Submerged!

  • 1,192 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 27 2013 - 11:03 AM

Hey, I'm an aspiring linguist! :P (I want to study linguistics in college)

 [font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]You and me both, brother.[/color][/font] 

So would "Garai" imply a connotation of "artificial" origin or control and "Ba-" imply a connotation of "natural" origin or control?

 [font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]It needn't even be that different, although that's definitely a possibility.  "Garai" and "Ba-"* might be even closer synonyms, like "weight" and "gravity" (per bonesiii's suggestion).[/color][/font] [font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]*By the way, "Ba" isn't necessarily a word in an of itself.  (The same obviously goes for the other elemental prefixes.)  It's very possible that it's just one form of some other word.  For instance, English "-dom" comes from suffixing of Old English "dōm" (judgment), which OE word also gives us "doom."  Words in some languages have a tendency to change when they are made into affixes, in the case of English because it lost the word's stress and thus did not undergo the Great Vowel Shift.[/color][/font]

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]--BioGio[/color][/font]


Edited by BioGio, Jun 27 2013 - 01:07 PM.

  • 0

dig


"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."


#82 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 27 2013 - 12:11 PM

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]*By the way, why is everyone assuming that "Ba" is a word in an of itself?[/color][/font]

We're not (or I'm not), re: earlier discussion about the likelihood of the prefixes being shortened versions of longer words like Kopaka, etc. but it's all we have for that word, so it suffices. (Also we might not know for sure that the prefixes aren't used as words on their own, so it may be one -- especially if "paka" is actually an added suffix for that character's name.)


  • 0

#83 Offline BioGio

BioGio
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Submerged!

  • 1,192 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 27 2013 - 01:05 PM

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]*By the way, why is everyone assuming that "Ba" is a word in an of itself?[/color][/font]

We're not (or I'm not), re: earlier discussion about the likelihood of the prefixes being shortened versions of longer words like Kopaka, etc. but it's all we have for that word, so it suffices. (Also we might not know for sure that the prefixes aren't used as words on their own, so it may be one -- especially if "paka" is actually an added suffix for that character's name.)

 

 

[font="georgia, serif;"][color=#000000;]I was mostly referring to the attempts to break down "Garai" into "Ga"+"rai," but it looks like I overlooked several comments that were not predicated on said assumption, so I'll just edit that post to be more clear.  Thanks for the clarification, bones.[/color][/font]


Edited by BioGio, Jun 27 2013 - 01:06 PM.

  • 0

dig


"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."


#84 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Time Discovered

  • 4,285 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jun 28 2013 - 12:09 PM

Somebody mentioned Tolkien's blog, so I thought I would look into it. This and this happen to be of the word-breakdown dictionary variety, which seems to come up frequently here. 


  • 0

#85 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

TNT-Vezon with an Olmak
  • Members
  • Makuta Conquered!

  • 563 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 28 2013 - 03:04 PM

Somebody mentioned Tolkien's blog, so I thought I would look into it. This and this happen to be of the word-breakdown dictionary variety, which seems to come up frequently here. 

If only we could canonize this. I would seriously try to learn every word and try to speak Matoran.


  • 0

new_sig_legacy.png


#86 Offline alpha123

alpha123
  • Members
  • Descending into Protodermis

  • 1,040 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 29 2013 - 04:45 PM

Somebody mentioned Tolkien's blog, so I thought I would look into it. This and this happen to be of the word-breakdown dictionary variety, which seems to come up frequently here. 

That is amazing! Wow.

I prefer Dual Matrix's approach with syllables, however I can't deny Tolkien's work is crazy awesome, and very thorough. Perhaps I'll work on a way of unifying those two sources (I have an interest in linguists as well, although I don't plan to formally study it).


  • 0


If the Kanohi masks are a type of technology and most of the MU citizens are Biomechanical beings then how would a Kanohi mask recognize the difference between a Matoran and a Toa?

 

Muffin button


#87 Offline northmarch

northmarch
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 94 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 29 2013 - 06:25 PM

Is it possible that Garai and Ba--- are derived from different versions of the dialect. So, when the first mask of gravity was was forged the mask maker chose to use the modern (or closer to modern) term for gravity rather than the original. Why? Maybe the mask maker thought Ba--- didn't sound like a mask. I would expect that some kanohi names were derived from multiple words. E.g. Kom---, ---ou.
  • 0

#88 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 29 2013 - 08:35 PM

 

Somebody mentioned Tolkien's blog, so I thought I would look into it. This and this happen to be of the word-breakdown dictionary variety, which seems to come up frequently here. 

That is amazing! Wow.

I prefer Dual Matrix's approach with syllables, however I can't deny Tolkien's work is crazy awesome, and very thorough. Perhaps I'll work on a way of unifying those two sources (I have an interest in linguists as well, although I don't plan to formally study it).

 

 

The syllables raise an interesting point:  Word (or word-part) duplication.  In the names of Kanohi like the Ruru, Kaukau, and Kakama, there are repeated syllables, although there are many two-letter or three-letter words/prefixes in Matoran, so it is not far-fetched to assume that these Mask names actually have meaning, too. 

 

In many Austronesian languages (like Maori, which many of the original Matoran names were taken from) duplication of words creates completely new words.  So if Kau means dive/swim, Kaukau could be interpreted as an extended dive, longer than one would normally be able to hold their breath for.  So for all intents and purposes the Kanohi Kaukau is the mask of Water Breathing, even though the word Kaukau may not be defined as such. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#89 Offline alpha123

alpha123
  • Members
  • Descending into Protodermis

  • 1,040 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 30 2013 - 09:24 PM

The syllables raise an interesting point:  Word (or word-part) duplication.  In the names of Kanohi like the Ruru, Kaukau, and Kakama, there are repeated syllables, although there are many two-letter or three-letter words/prefixes in Matoran, so it is not far-fetched to assume that these Mask names actually have meaning, too. 

 

In many Austronesian languages (like Maori, which many of the original Matoran names were taken from) duplication of words creates completely new words.  So if Kau means dive/swim, Kaukau could be interpreted as an extended dive, longer than one would normally be able to hold their breath for.  So for all intents and purposes the Kanohi Kaukau is the mask of Water Breathing, even though the word Kaukau may not be defined as such. 

I think in Matoran repeated syllables add emphasis (as in some Native American languages), not necessarily completely new words (although your example with "extended dive" is effectively what I'm getting at with emphasis). Kakama may mean "very fast transport." I'm a little stuck on Ruru however. If "ru" meant, say, "sight," emphasized sight would be more like the Akaku. Perhaps you're right with repetition being different-but-related words.

Interestingly enough, I can't find any repeated syllables past 2001, so syllable repetition probably was taken from Maori.


  • 0


If the Kanohi masks are a type of technology and most of the MU citizens are Biomechanical beings then how would a Kanohi mask recognize the difference between a Matoran and a Toa?

 

Muffin button


#90 Offline XONAR

XONAR
  • Premier Member
    BioniLUG Member
  • Premier Members
  • Swarm Scavenger

  • 696 posts
  •  

Posted Jun 30 2013 - 09:50 PM

 

The syllables raise an interesting point:  Word (or word-part) duplication.  In the names of Kanohi like the Ruru, Kaukau, and Kakama, there are repeated syllables, although there are many two-letter or three-letter words/prefixes in Matoran, so it is not far-fetched to assume that these Mask names actually have meaning, too. 

 

In many Austronesian languages (like Maori, which many of the original Matoran names were taken from) duplication of words creates completely new words.  So if Kau means dive/swim, Kaukau could be interpreted as an extended dive, longer than one would normally be able to hold their breath for.  So for all intents and purposes the Kanohi Kaukau is the mask of Water Breathing, even though the word Kaukau may not be defined as such. 

I think in Matoran repeated syllables add emphasis (as in some Native American languages), not necessarily completely new words (although your example with "extended dive" is effectively what I'm getting at with emphasis). Kakama may mean "very fast transport." I'm a little stuck on Ruru however. If "ru" meant, say, "sight," emphasized sight would be more like the Akaku. Perhaps you're right with repetition being different-but-related words.

Interestingly enough, I can't find any repeated syllables past 2001, so syllable repetition probably was taken from Maori.

 

I would think that Aka means sight rather than Ru, but then what would that make Ru? They both give the user enhanced sight in different ways. I will look it up in a Maorian dictionary if I can find one. I think this theory is excellent and very well may explain the reasoning behind the nomenclature of Bionicle in the early years.


  • 0

#91 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jun 30 2013 - 10:17 PM

I would think that Aka means sight rather than Ru, but then what would that make Ru? They both give the user enhanced sight in different ways. I will look it up in a Maorian dictionary if I can find one.

Ruru in Maori means owl, shake, or "Morepork" (apparently a location), and is also an incredibly common word part in words meaning anything you can imagine pretty much.

 

(Akaku doesn't seem to exist except as part of various words.)

 

It's possible "ru" itself means night vision in the sense that Onu-Matoran have naturally, so "ruru" would mean unnatural night vision granted by a power; "night vision with emphasis".


  • 0

#92 Offline XONAR

XONAR
  • Premier Member
    BioniLUG Member
  • Premier Members
  • Swarm Scavenger

  • 696 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 09:54 AM

 

I would think that Aka means sight rather than Ru, but then what would that make Ru? They both give the user enhanced sight in different ways. I will look it up in a Maorian dictionary if I can find one.

Ruru in Maori means owl, shake, or "Morepork" (apparently a location), and is also an incredibly common word part in words meaning anything you can imagine pretty much.

 

(Akaku doesn't seem to exist except as part of various words.)

 

It's possible "ru" itself means night vision in the sense that Onu-Matoran have naturally, so "ruru" would mean unnatural night vision granted by a power; "night vision with emphasis".

 

That would make a lot more sense. I'm forgetting that TLG added its own meanings to some words and prefixes and didn't solely use Maori definitions. 


  • 0

#93 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 12:22 PM

 

 

I would think that Aka means sight rather than Ru, but then what would that make Ru? They both give the user enhanced sight in different ways. I will look it up in a Maorian dictionary if I can find one.

Ruru in Maori means owl, shake, or "Morepork" (apparently a location), and is also an incredibly common word part in words meaning anything you can imagine pretty much.

 

(Akaku doesn't seem to exist except as part of various words.)

 

It's possible "ru" itself means night vision in the sense that Onu-Matoran have naturally, so "ruru" would mean unnatural night vision granted by a power; "night vision with emphasis".

 

That would make a lot more sense. I'm forgetting that TLG added its own meanings to some words and prefixes and didn't solely use Maori definitions. 

 

 

I was going to say, isn't it plausible that Ru and Aka both mean sight, just in different ways?  Perhaps Ru does mean sight, but Aka means something like 'transparent' or 'see-through', since that's what the Mask does anyway.  Because that way, the Kanohi Akaku wouldn't be the 'Mask of Vision, but X-ray', it would be the 'Mask of X-rays'.  But it would be assumed that it would allow the user to see through it, because there are eye-holes.

 

Quick side note:  it seems as if both Kopaka's and Nuju's Kanohi are actually modified from the original versions with special telescopic lenses, along with every matoran who has ever worn an Akaku.  I'm interested in seeing a version of those masks without the extra eyepieces, might be cool.  (Also, Nuju's noble mask doesn't have the eyepiece)


Edited by darthme, Jul 01 2013 - 12:23 PM.

  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#94 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 01:53 PM

Quick side note:  it seems as if both Kopaka's and Nuju's Kanohi are actually modified from the original versions with special telescopic lenses, along with every matoran who has ever worn an Akaku.  I'm interested in seeing a version of those masks without the extra eyepieces, might be cool.  (Also, Nuju's noble mask doesn't have the eyepiece)

We don't know that every Matoran wearing an Akaku would have the eyepiece. No reason they must. In fact, even Toa could have them without the eyepieces. I made a version for a character in my history retelling, in fact (a Toa, sans visor, for more variety):

 

Posted Image

 

Pretty easy to imagine without the image of course -- it's just the non-visor side copied and flipped. :)

 

Note that the Noble version we have doesn't have a visor. (Of course, that was my idea, not the story team's, but since it's canon now it is evidence. :P)

 

Re: telekinesis, I think we had a version without the visor used for the Toa nicknamed Artakha in the Expanded Multiverse... lemme see if I can dig that up...

 

Here we go:

 

http://www.brickshel...s/char_arty.png

 

And portrayals by Kayru and Lewathetoa:

 

http://www.brickshel...ns/tc_kayru.jpg

 

http://www.brickshel...lewathetoa1.png

 

 

And this is off-topic....

 

On topic: I think "Akaku" could mean "transparent vision". We shouldn't assume we know which word part means what of course, but judging by the normal "descriptor comes second" format as in City Great / Metru Nui, aka probably means vision (with no night vision connotations) while ku could mean transparent. The latter would make sense as it's similar to ko; ice, which is often transparent. And aka is similar to avohkii / light (kinda).


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 01 2013 - 01:58 PM.

  • 0

#95 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

TNT-Vezon with an Olmak
  • Members
  • Makuta Conquered!

  • 563 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 03:40 PM

You guys might want to look at this.


  • 0

new_sig_legacy.png


#96 Offline XONAR

XONAR
  • Premier Member
    BioniLUG Member
  • Premier Members
  • Swarm Scavenger

  • 696 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 08:15 PM

Dang, thats a pot of gold right there. That must have taken a long time and a lot of hard work to compile. My hat off to Tolkien for creating it.


  • 0

#97 Offline alpha123

alpha123
  • Members
  • Descending into Protodermis

  • 1,040 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 08:40 PM

It's possible "ru" itself means night vision in the sense that Onu-Matoran have naturally, so "ruru" would mean unnatural night vision granted by a power; "night vision with emphasis".

That makes a great deal of sense, especially considering that the Ruru is much more powerful than natural night vision, which could certainly carry the connotation of being unnatural/granted by a power.

 

:onfire:

That's awesome! Tolkien, you're amazing. :)


  • 0


If the Kanohi masks are a type of technology and most of the MU citizens are Biomechanical beings then how would a Kanohi mask recognize the difference between a Matoran and a Toa?

 

Muffin button


#98 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 08:49 PM

 

Quick side note:  it seems as if both Kopaka's and Nuju's Kanohi are actually modified from the original versions with special telescopic lenses, along with every matoran who has ever worn an Akaku.  I'm interested in seeing a version of those masks without the extra eyepieces, might be cool.  (Also, Nuju's noble mask doesn't have the eyepiece)

We don't know that every Matoran wearing an Akaku would have the eyepiece. No reason they must. In fact, even Toa could have them without the eyepieces. I made a version for a character in my history retelling, in fact (a Toa, sans visor, for more variety):

 

And this is off-topic....

 

On topic: I think "Akaku" could mean "transparent vision". We shouldn't assume we know which word part means what of course, but judging by the normal "descriptor comes second" format as in City Great / Metru Nui, aka probably means vision (with no night vision connotations) while ku could mean transparent. The latter would make sense as it's similar to ko; ice, which is often transparent. And aka is similar to avohkii / light (kinda).

 

 

I just meant that we've never canonically seen a Matoran wearing a Great Akaku without a visor (even though it is totally plausible)

 

Anyway, back on topic:  Yes, perhaps we do have Aka and Ku mixed up.  Although the word Akaku itself doesn't contain any syllable dulpication, so it may not even be seperable.  Tolkien's dictionary seems to think that way, so I guess we should just assume that it is a compound, but not a duplicated one. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#99 Offline alpha123

alpha123
  • Members
  • Descending into Protodermis

  • 1,040 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 10:59 PM

On the topic of the Akaku, Tolkien considers it "aka-aku," meaning "power-vision." "aku" being sight/vision seems reasonable although I disagree with him on the rest, preferring "ak-ak-aku" with "ak" perhaps meaning "well" and "ak-ak-aku" (shortened to "ak-ak-u") meaning "seeing very well." Admittedly this is a shaky theory at best and was largely contrived to support my repeated-syllable-means-emphasis theory. However, it has a bit of evidence going for it in Volitak, perhaps meaning "well concealed."


  • 0


If the Kanohi masks are a type of technology and most of the MU citizens are Biomechanical beings then how would a Kanohi mask recognize the difference between a Matoran and a Toa?

 

Muffin button


#100 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 01 2013 - 11:24 PM

Or it might be ak-ak-ku with the two "K"s condensed into one.

 

I would lean against this though because of the theory with much evidence that "Ahk/ak" means "being" or something like that, and "Aki" means "valor". Ak ak would mean "especially alive" which doesn't seem right for vision. So I think that just like Aki is probably a separate "word part" and word from Ak, Aka is probably another separate word meaning vision (plus ku meaning transparent like ice).

 

I'd also like to add the idea that Aka might be short for Avka -- light of a spirit/person which is what vision is poetically like. (Not as in inner light, but that real light is guiding a person's actions via what they can see.) (Ka from Phantoka and Mistika.) So Akaku might be short for Avkaku.


  • 0

#101 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 03 2013 - 11:09 AM

Or it might be ak-ak-ku with the two "K"s condensed into one.

 

I would lean against this though because of the theory with much evidence that "Ahk/ak" means "being" or something like that, and "Aki" means "valor". Ak ak would mean "especially alive" which doesn't seem right for vision. So I think that just like Aki is probably a separate "word part" and word from Ak, Aka is probably another separate word meaning vision (plus ku meaning transparent like ice).

 

I'd also like to add the idea that Aka might be short for Avka -- light of a spirit/person which is what vision is poetically like. (Not as in inner light, but that real light is guiding a person's actions via what they can see.) (Ka from Phantoka and Mistika.) So Akaku might be short for Avkaku.

 

But would Avkaku mean something more along the lines of light that guides a person's life?  Like destiny? 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#102 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 03 2013 - 02:55 PM

There's any number of possibilities. I would think destiny would have a different logic to its etymology, though, something implying the future or time in general, or purpose.

 

But that's how it is with most real-world etymologies too. The words that result could have been used with a different logic for a totally different or slightly different meaning, but the people who made the words happened to choose the meanings they did. It would have to be the same in Bionicle (this means we can't be certain of these theories but of course that's normal for theories), except that the GBs would probably have chosen many of them rather than the MU natives.

 

For example, the GBs might have used Avkaku originally and the Matoran later shortened it.

 

It might also have multiple uses; a literal one and a poetic one (like your suggestion), just like many real words, depending on context.


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 03 2013 - 02:56 PM.

  • 0

#103 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 04 2013 - 11:01 AM

One other question I wanted to raise was the repetition of individual vowels in Matoran.  There are also repeated consonants, like in Vortixx, but they don't happen as often.  Words like Suukorak or Guurahk both have two 'u's in them.  So, when pronouncing this, would one use a 'long u' [u:] or seperate the two vowels with what is known as a glottal stop? [ʔ]  The glottal stop is where you stop the breath that is voicing a sound and start it again.  It sounds like a mini-pause in the word.

 

So in a word like Guurahk, would the pronunciation be /GU:ra:k/ or /guʔU-rahk/?


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#104 Offline Master Inika

Master Inika
  • Members
  • Nuhvok-Kal Collapsed

  • 4,360 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 04 2013 - 12:19 PM

That's how Gaaki is pronounced, but I'm not sure about the others. How would a glottal stop work for Vortixx? It seems like a vowel-specific thing.
  • 0

99% of BZPower members have abandoned this fad.

If you're part of the 1% willing to cling to it out irrational nostalgia for the old days of BZP, copy and paste this to your signature!

 

unseen_light_banner.jpg

 

Click here to meet Chomper, my 2002-style Rahi MOC!


#105 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 04 2013 - 03:41 PM

Well the Glottal Stop is classified itself as a consonant. (It breaks up vowels but not other consonants)So it wouldn't work for Vortixx.
  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#106 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 04 2013 - 03:47 PM

Well the Glottal Stop is classified itself as a consonant. (It breaks up vowels but not other consonants)So it wouldn't work for Vortixx.

Unless the doubled-up  x itself denotes it? Some accents of English turn k into a glottal stop (Scottish). It could be Vortiʔs.

 

But I doubt it.


  • 0

#107 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 04 2013 - 11:44 PM

Yeah, I don't think it really fits with the whole Maori vibe of Matoran. 


  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#108 Offline tokytot

tokytot
  • Members
  • Inhabitant

  • 6 posts

Posted Jul 08 2013 - 02:12 PM

That's a good question, but I'm not sure about that. :(


  • 0

#109 Offline man774

man774
  • Members
  • Toa

  • 103 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 10 2013 - 02:35 PM

Maybe It's just me, but wouldn't it make sense for a bionicle language to be more closely related to Danish than to English? I mean, Lego is Danish, and there are the three germanic(?) letters that don't exists in English that have a matoran letter form. Also, there are some real-world linguistic phenomena that can maybe give some clues (through the process of deductive reasoning) to how the matoran language might sound:

 

1.English is one of the few languages in Europe (possibly everywhere else, too, but I wouldn't know anything about that) that use the "th" sound. So, it might be likely that a bionicle language wouldn't use that sound.

2. Same thing with the letter w. Many languages pronounce it like a v, and it's even called "double v" in some languages (as opposed to the English "double u"). I know that many words in matoran have w's in them, and that would possibly lead some to believe that it does utilize a /w sound; however, Lego, and therefore bionicle, is a Danish creation, and in Danish, w makes a /v sound.


Edited by man774, Jul 11 2013 - 12:10 AM.

  • 0



what is more dangerous? bulk with a pakari? or justin bieber's singing?

Dirk Pitt could beat Chuck Norris. Dirk Pitt is the Chuck Norris of the 70's.

 


#110 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 10 2013 - 02:46 PM

Actual Matoran isn't related to any real-world language, technically. It's just fictional and inspired by many of them (especially Maori, about as different from English or [Danish... or Dutch for that matter... see post below to explain edit :P] you can get :P).

 

But that aside, LEGO designed Bionicle primarily for an English-speaking audience because that's the majority of the target audience for the toys. :)

 

To specific points:

 

1) The Kanohi Zatth uses the English th sound, so negative to that. (The doubled t indicates a hard t followed by the th.)

 

2) It's a bit much to ask the wider audience to just automatically know that the Ws are really Vs, when that is nowhere explained, so no, I don't buy that either. I don't exactly know how they spell it in the [Danish] versions, not knowing that except for a handful of similar words to German (and what little of that I know lol), but I would presume they would simply respell the relevant words according to the Danish system. Either that or they get the same spellings but just pronounce it differently. Not like it's the end of the world if they do lol.

 

Edit: Oh and, the Danish letters included in Matoran are probably used for the Danish words "translated" from Matoran but still using Matoran lettering. Just like how I doubt actual Matoran really has a C, K, and Q all for the same sound, those letters are added anyways to the "partially translated" version that is really English in Matoran lettering, or in that case Danish in Matoran letters. Pretty sure they have the three extra German vowels too (not sure if those overlap Danish) for the German version. Probably none of them exist in actual Matoran; it probably uses a more Maori style of vowels.

 

In other words, they wouldn't use the extra letters in the Danish sources for Matoran words like "Kanoka" or the like. Make sense?

 

[Edit: How did I miss the Dutch/Danish thing lol? Sorry 'bou' that...]


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 10 2013 - 10:27 PM.

  • 0

#111 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 10 2013 - 10:06 PM

Maybe It's just me, but wouldn't it make sense for a bionicle language to be more closely related to Danish than to English? I mean, Lego is Dutch, and there are the three Dutch letters that don't exists in English that have a matoran letter form. Also, there are some real-world linguistic phenomena that can maybe give some clues (through the process of deductive reasoning) to how the matoran language might sound:

 

1.English is one of the few languages in Europe (possibly everywhere else, too, but I wouldn't know anything about that) that use the "th" sound. So, it might be likely that a bionicle language wouldn't use that sound.

2. Same thing with the letter w. Many languages pronounce it like a v, and it's even called "double v" in some languages (as opposed to the English "double u"). I know that many words in matoran have w's in them, and that would possibly lead some to believe that it does utilize a /w sound; however, Lego, and therefore bionicle, is a Danish creation, and in Danish, w makes a /v sound.

 

GAAH LEGO IS DANISH THEY SPEAK DANISH IN DENMARK GRAHHH!!!  DANMARK ER HVOR LEGO KOMMER FRA IKKE HOLLAND!!!

 

Sorry about that, my moment of rage is over (Everyone gets Denmark and the Netherlands mixed up :P  Dutch and Danish are two different languages).  First of all, there are certain instances in Danish where the /w/ phoneme is present.  One such occurrence is the word afhængig, which means addicted,  is pronounced /ow-hang-eeg/. 

 

As far as I know, the sounds /æ/, /ø/,and /å/ have never been seen in Matoran as distinct phonemes (not in the English versions anyway).  English has lumped /æ/ and /å/ in with other phonemes represented in English; in the many different versions of our vowels 'a', 'e', and 'o'. 


Edited by darthme, Jul 10 2013 - 10:26 PM.

  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#112 Offline man774

man774
  • Members
  • Toa

  • 103 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 12:09 AM

Oops. I did not see that. Thanks for catching that mistake,darthme.

 

And bonesiii- I know that it's a fictional language and it isn't based off of real world language, but I'm saying if those phenomena that I pointed out (which really aren't so uncommon after all, i guess) occurred in the real world, why not in a fictitious  one? It's like Steven hawking's theory of alien life forms: the laws of physics exist here and everywhere else. So why not the laws of evolution and biology? What I mean to say is, if these examples are (aren't) an oddity here, why wouldn't they be (not be) somewhere else?

(i should really start rethinking the way I word my posts sometimes)


Edited by man774, Jul 11 2013 - 12:12 AM.

  • 0



what is more dangerous? bulk with a pakari? or justin bieber's singing?

Dirk Pitt could beat Chuck Norris. Dirk Pitt is the Chuck Norris of the 70's.

 


#113 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 12:42 AM

And bonesiii- I know that it's a fictional language and it isn't based off of real world language

Just to be clear, I didn't intend to imply that you might not know it's fictional. :P But to the second part, well, actually it's "based" off of many real-world languages. There's Maori, Latin, and English influences as has been discussed in detail earlier in this topic. Not all of it is random gibberish. (Of course, to some extent I do suspect my Tolkien-esque theory that some of that is "slightly translated" like Aduni --> Westron.)

 

Danish may very well be among the things it's based on in places. I wouldn't really know. :P (Well, I vaguely recall some people mentioning some European language influences but I forget if it was Danish specifically.)

 

but I'm saying if those phenomena that I pointed out (which really aren't so uncommon after all, i guess) occurred in the real world, why not in a fictitious  one?

What are you referring specifically to here? I'm not sure I'm following you now. Pardon if I'm just being dense. :P

 

It's like Steven hawking's theory of alien life forms: the laws of physics exist here and everywhere else. So why not the laws of evolution and biology? What I mean to say is, if these examples are (aren't) an oddity here, why wouldn't they be (not be) somewhere else?

I must be really missing something here. What do the laws of physics or biology have to do with this, etc.? I thought what you were talking about was whether the pronunciations were meant to be phonetic in English or Danish due to LEGO being founded in Denmark?? :lookaround:

 

Note: Please be cautious if you might be getting into examples of a controversial, not-allowed-here subject like origins in the real world. Let's stick to the Bionicle world (and keep in mind that the real-world laws of physics very definitely do not exist per se, at least not exactly the same in all cases, in Bionicle... though I really don't understand how we got off on that tangent :P).

 

And what examples do you mean that aren't an oddity? I think the case can be made that many aspects of English, Danish, French... Dutch... or Maori for that matter are oddities. But whether they are or not should be irrelevant to what a fictional language is like, really. It could be the most statistically implausible thing imagineable and still thrive in fiction as long as it's possible. :)


  • 0

#114 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 12:54 AM

-ManHaha it's no problem :). I'm going on an exchange trip to Denmark next year, and it's a really big pet peeve of mine when I tell pepple I'm going to Denmark and they get Dutch and Danish mixed up. But I probably overreacted a little bit there. No hard feelings.Anyway, back on topic. Bones, I think Man is trying to say that there may be more European influences in places we haven't seen yet. (Although for that matter, anything we haven't seen yet likely doesn't exist, since Bionicle is fiction)
  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#115 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Mask of Time Discovered

  • 4,285 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 09:51 AM

I think what man774 might be trying to say is that there might be differences between langauges in Bionicle like there are differences between languages in the real world. I could be wrong though.
  • 0

#116 Offline man774

man774
  • Members
  • Toa

  • 103 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 10:43 AM

that is exactly it, fisher


  • 0



what is more dangerous? bulk with a pakari? or justin bieber's singing?

Dirk Pitt could beat Chuck Norris. Dirk Pitt is the Chuck Norris of the 70's.

 


#117 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 11:36 AM

I think what man774 might be trying to say is that there might be differences between langauges in Bionicle like there are differences between languages in the real world. I could be wrong though.

that is exactly it, fisher

Well, as a general principle, don't there have to be differences between two different languages for them to be two different ones? :P

 

But I presume you mean between the sounds, like maybe different vowels or consonants.

 

It seems that Agori and Matoran for the most part use all the same sounds. For other sapient languages we just don't know enough to say. Birdlang is of course extremely different (as would be other Rahi languages), with clicks and whistles and the like, and perhaps Visorak is as well.


  • 0

#118 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 02:19 PM

Well doesn't it make sense for Matoran and Agori to be related in some way?  I mean, the GBs spent a long time among Agori before creating the Matoran.  Perhaps they gave both the Agori and Matoran the same language, and they branched off from each other once the Matoran Universe launched off from Spherus Magna?  Like in the way that all modern Romance langauages are related to each other because they all came mainly from Latin.  But someone speaking Romanian to a Portugese-speaking person wouldn't necessarily get their point across very well. 

 

Well, that's kind of a bad example, since the Romance langauges are related to closely.  Here's a new one:

 

Someone speaking Icelandic to a person speaking Swedish won't get their point across, even though the two are both Germanic languages.


Edited by darthme, Jul 11 2013 - 02:21 PM.

  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles

#119 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,203 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 04:10 PM

Well doesn't it make sense for Matoran and Agori to be related in some way?  I mean, the GBs spent a long time among Agori before creating the Matoran.  Perhaps they gave both the Agori and Matoran the same language, and they branched off from each other once the Matoran Universe launched off from Spherus Magna?

Greg confirmed the GBs speak Agori and Matoran was designed based on it. I almost mentioned this in my previous post but figured everybody already knows it lol, my bad. It's brought up in S&T often. (Matoran was just a programming language, much like how real-world programming languages are based on English words, etc.)

 

Who originated Agori I'm not sure about. I assume given the name that they did. The mysterious origins of the GBs make it hard to pin down as far as I know; did the GBs speak another language and learn Agori, or where they always Agori? And I suppose I don't know for sure that your suggestion is wrong -- maybe the GBs did design the Agori language too and teach it to the Agori people, but I doubt it. Presumably the Agori would have had their own language before meeting the GBs, and it's hard to see why they'd suddenly switch what they speak just because of honoring their new leaders.


  • 0

#120 Offline darthme

darthme
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 96 posts
  •  

Posted Jul 11 2013 - 04:58 PM

Well I was going more along the lines that the GBs landed on Spherus Magna, then taught the primitive Agori the their language, which they later called Agori in the same sense that the Matoran call their language Matoran.
  • 0
6701cfca.gif
DET ER JO DANMARK, MANG!!
 
BZRPG Profiles




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users