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2009 Reboot - what went wrong?

2009 reboot wrong

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#1 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 12:47 AM

So, we all know (probably) that 2009 was meant as a reboot for Bionicle, to make it more accessible to new fans. In 2008 the story of the Matoran Universe had become extremely complicated (thanks to all the backstory and serials) and cluttered, rendering even old fans confused at what was going on. The Lego Group decided to leave that setting earlier than they had planned just so Bionicle could get a new beginning and live on.

 

So they shifted their focus on Bara Magna and made Mata Nui, the only person from the previous story arch, its main character. They had a new setting and a new story.

 

However, something went horribly wrong and Bionicle ended up cancelled in 2010. The reboot failed.

 

I thought in this topic we could all through some ideas on why the reboot failed so badly and what would have been a proper way to do it so that it succeeded.

 

For starters, here are some of my insights on what TLG should have done in the reboot:

 

1. Ditch the serials completely, or only have one of them with as simple a story as possible (no random sisters of the skrall, no hundreds of characters that never become sets, etc.)

 

2. Make all the canister sets and small sets somehow related. The 2009 sets were a complete mess in this regard. The first wave has only three sets that actually were Glatorian, although all were marketed as such. Vorox were some sort of beasts, Skrall were a species and Malum was exiled. Only four were individual characters and three were doing what the whole theme of 2009 was about - fighting on the arena.

 

3. Ditch the serials.

 

4. One thing they did right was making less books. Only one besides the movie novelization, actually. This would have worked well if the story in the book had been as simple.

 

5. No huge chunks of revelation about Spherus Magna history and trivial information every day. Ruined the mystery completely and made Bzpower into some kind of a priviledged story. It almost felt like Bionicle was continued only for this online community, ignoring others. This wasn't the case, but story-wise it just seemed that way. Revelations and backstory things should be revealed slowly over time, one or two story items a year. In 2001 we weren't told on some website that everyone was living on the face of a giant robot, so why would anyone reveal in 2009 that Bara Magna had once been Spherus Magna etc.

 

6. Introduce Mata Nui from the start and make the new world open up to the fans through his eyes. MNOG did this in 2001, but there are other kinds of methods to do this as well.

 

7. Less characters and more character development - making sure fans get attached to the characters like they did in the Matoran Universe arch. This would make it possible to expand the story to multiple years.

 

Here were some things I thought of. With a right strategy, the Bara Magna storyline could have possibly become another 8-year run that would eventually connect to the old arch. What are your thoughts?


Edited by Toatapio Nuva, Jun 15 2013 - 12:47 AM.

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#2 Offline Rama~Swarm

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 01:05 AM

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color]

[color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]


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#3 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 01:56 AM

I suspected that Bzpower may have had a contribution, but not enough to get Bionicle cancelled by itself.

 

The sets, for one, had the same repetetive build throughout every year after 2007, which must've decreased interest of also non-Bzpower fans in buying them. But that's a very interesting thing about BZP...


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#4 Offline northmarch

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 05:14 AM

I thought it was going great except for the poor execution of the legend reborn. The opening sequence there was really bad and kind of messed up the minimal backstory thing they were going for. What do you have against the serials?
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#5 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 06:22 AM

It wasn't successful for the same reason previous years hadn't been. Not enough effort was made to tell the story, which remained unexciting and difficult to follow. How many people knew or cared about it when most of it was being written on a rather obscure website? That wasn't an improvement on the books.

 

The movie (regardless of its quality) was an honest attempt at making the story accessible and lively again, but it came out too late to make a difference.


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#6 Offline Black Six

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 06:26 AM

Moving to LEGO Discussion...
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#7 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 07:40 AM

I thought it was going great except for the poor execution of the legend reborn. The opening sequence there was really bad and kind of messed up the minimal backstory thing they were going for.What do you have against the serials?

 

It's not about me having something against the serials, but rather the mess they turned out to be and the way they complicated the story way too much (alternate universes), without even giving any important plot points to the main story. It just complicated things for newer fans. 


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#8 Offline AdaptingChaos

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 08:17 AM

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color]

[color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

Saw the video too and its a very weird theory, but it was fun listening to a possibly of Bionicle's cancellation.

I do believe however that Bionicle was canceled due to it loosing its creativity and uniqueness in set design and the complicated storyline, which was difficult to follow.


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#9 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 09:36 AM

The small sets weren't brilliant for a start.  There were some nice recolours, but only the helmets were new molds, except for Metus' shield and Atakus' swords.  I think the switch to helmets was also a bit weird to be honest.  They certainly didn't offer the same appeal as masks. 

 

Storywise we had a totally uninspiring villain, some serials I forget the events of, and the worlds cheesiest movie.  2009 left a lot to be desired, but I don't see how it would have caused a severe lapse in sales.  I'd imagine it was more to do with a downward trend in sales, and the reboot didn't change the trend enough, so they cancelled it.


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#10 Offline Sumiki

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 11:01 AM

[font="Palatino;"]I highly doubt that BZPower's downtime would have anything to do with BIONICLE's cancellation. We've weathered quite a bit of them and we're still a very active forum - not as active as the days of old, but certainly more active than the vast majority of other forums out there. Besides, the active member base of BZP - even in its heyday - was still not enough to support BIONICLE on a financial basis. As much as we may not like to admit it, we were not BIONICLE's target market. A lot of people criticize the '09 story for being lame, and I won't dispute that. Thing is, only the older portion of the fan base - us - would realize this, and even then it didn't really hurt sales. I don't remember ever seeing a BZP post saying "oh, that movie was terrible, no way I'm buying the sets." Most of us either followed the story or bought sets for the purpose of constructing MOCs. The two became so different that they were exclusive, and liking/disliking one had no impact on the other whatsoever. Now, on to the reboot. I understand LEGO's decision to keep going with the line - it'd had a great run and constraction figures still had a big market. While plans for what became Hero Factory brewed in the background, LEGO kept BIONICLE going for as long as it could, but they realized that their main constraction line - whatever it was called - needed to become more accessible to younger fans, those who would become the target market for Hero Factory. People tend to forget this, but for the longest time, LEGO made a grave error when they figured out total profit: they never took into account the money spent to create new molds. They began doing this in 2009, a year with tons of new molds - heads, helmets, weapons, hands, et cetera. Financially, unless 2009 sales went through the roof, there was no reason to keep it alive. While I have reservations about blaming the 2009 story for bringing BIONICLE down, I'm sure that it had something to do with it on some level with some percentage of the target market. The reboot simply failed miserably. The story was too complicated - instead of forgetting (or summarizing) the MU story, they kept it going, and then added to the complication on Bara Magna by introducing a bunch of minor characters that had no impact on the story and only served to create confusion. I'm sure that this didn't stop sales, the nature of the story up until that point - and the fact that 2009 was on the verge of becoming about as convoluted as the '01-'08 run - would have preventing potential fans from becoming outright fans. BIONICLE had a great run, but for many reasons the time was right to mothball it. There would be no way of simplifying both sets and story and still have it be totally BIONICLE - in the end, if they'd gone down that route and rebooted everything but the name, you'd have an equivalent to Hero Factory, except with a different name.[/font]


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#11 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 05:31 PM

I honestly don't think they should have done such a total reboot. By attempting this, there were still very few new fans for the same reasons, but it also drove away some older fans as well. Everything just seemed bland compared to the incredible MU story. Instead of Teridax, who, unlike 99% of other villains, was actually clever enough to outsmart the heroes and actually win (At least until they decided to end Bionicle through the world's most anticlimactic villain death). Tuma, on the other hand, was a moron in comparison. He was just a stereotypical incompetent evil mean overlord. He's just a really big Skrall with a really big sword and really big plans. Also, he looked nowhere near as imposing as any of Teridax's forms, even Terry's Dume form. As well, the Glatorian. The elemental armor was cool at first, until you realize, elemental powers not included. They just had weapons to work with: A fruit gun and a melee weapon. And the set design? Bleaugh. Inika clones. Over and over. Nearly EVERY canister set was an Inika build. I think this year really gave the Inika build its bad name. Overall, it seems like they just gave up trying with the reboot.


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#12 Offline Gears The Toa

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 07:02 PM

Well, some story parts were good, like the glatorian and agori being cyborgs, instead of bio-mechanical. I honestly think it was trans heads. You just don't EVER have an open face  mask with a trans head, EVER.


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#13 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 15 2013 - 08:44 PM

I don't think there was anything about the 2009 reboot in particular that "doomed" BIONICLE. BIONICLE's sales strength had already been declining since around halfway through its lifespan, with little substantial growth in sales for the theme after around 2004. It was rapidly accumulating story details that could alienate new fans. So I think the 2009 reboot might have just been too little, too late, however it was handled.Now, one thing I do think was that the decision to push the story outside the Matoran Universe was not as effective as the writers hoped. It seemed like moving the story to a new location would help new fans start fresh, but in fact the story (particularly as told in the serials) continued to rely on callbacks only dedicated fans would get.As far as set designs were concerned, I don't think there were any flaws in 2009 that would hurt its performance, or at least no more than previous years. The sets made great use of existing parts and recolors. Some of the new parts were excessively specialized (Vastus's shoulder armor, for instance), but on the whole I don't think this was the theme's downfall.
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#14 Offline Makuta_of_Oz

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 01:32 AM

In the olden days, the primary focus of Bionicle was Masks of Power. They were what Bionicle was known for; its trademark.

 

In 2009's reboot, the only Mask of Power that was featured was the Mask of Life. Other than that, Bionicle's trademark was gone.

 

I believe the lack of masks in the reboot may have been one reason why it "failed".


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#15 Offline Rama~Swarm

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 03:48 AM

In the olden days, the primary focus of Bionicle was Masks of Power. They were what Bionicle was known for; its trademark.

 

In 2009's reboot, the only Mask of Power that was featured was the Mask of Life. Other than that, Bionicle's trademark was gone.

 

I believe the lack of masks in the reboot may have been one reason why it "failed".

[color=#800080;]I agree. I feel like the collectability aspect of Bionicle was lost when they released the Krana and Kraata. The masks were the heart and soul of Bionicle and not continuing that line of collectibles probably hurt the series. [/color]

 

[color=#800080;]I blame the Nuva series of masks which were uninspired compared to the first wave. Of course I blame the nuva series for all of Bionicle's shortcomings.[/color]


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#16 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 07:35 AM

 

In the olden days, the primary focus of Bionicle was Masks of Power. They were what Bionicle was known for; its trademark.

 

In 2009's reboot, the only Mask of Power that was featured was the Mask of Life. Other than that, Bionicle's trademark was gone.

 

I believe the lack of masks in the reboot may have been one reason why it "failed".

[color=#800080;]I agree. I feel like the collectability aspect of Bionicle was lost when they released the Krana and Kraata. The masks were the heart and soul of Bionicle and not continuing that line of collectibles probably hurt the series. [/color]

 

[color=#800080;]I blame the Nuva series of masks which were uninspired compared to the first wave. Of course I blame the nuva series for all of Bionicle's shortcomings.[/color]

 

 

I'm afraid I can't provide a reference for it, but I recall hearing somewhere that sales of Kanohi/Krana packs were not that strong compared to those of the figures. The shift towards projectile collectibles in 2004 and the lack of mask collecting in later storylines may indicate this.


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#17 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 05:39 PM

They should have introduced The "Mata Nui arrives" plot first, done backstory later. The early 2009 story was meaningless filler, with absolutely no point to it. Thus, fail.
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#18 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 05:53 PM

The sets didn't ring 'BIONICLE' like others did. They looked a bit like Knight's Kingdom almost, and I think that caused less people to buy them.


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#19 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 07:24 PM

I agree that BIONICLE collectibles started strong with the original Kanohi and never reached that height again. The Krana were an interesting spin, but ultimately weaker, and the Kraata were weaker still. They were harder to identify and couldn't be worn like a mask. Kanoka were a high point, since the code system was interesting but not necessary to memorize in order to enjoy the story. They've been spiraling downward since then. Not only that, the 2009 reboot did away with everything that made BIONICLE special.

 

Mata Nui was a lush, tropical paradise with six unique biomes. Bara Magna is, well, a desert.

 

The Toa were selfless heroes with magnificent elemental powers. The Glatorian were glorified wrestlers.

 

The Matoran and Turaga were diverse, spirited individuals with a rich culture. The Agori were businessmen.

 

I think the case of Makuta vs. Tuma is the most complex. In particular, not having a set of Makuta in 2001 made him seem more ethereal and powerful. The Rahi (except the Manas) were relatively fearsome-looking, and the knowledge that they served Makuta's whim made him a foreboding villain. There was a distinct buildup to the release of the Makuta set in 2003, and they executed in perfectly. The set is freaking creepy, and looks like everything the Master of Shadows should. Tuma has butterfly wings. I rest my case.


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#20 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 08:08 PM

I agree that BIONICLE collectibles started strong with the original Kanohi and never reached that height again. The Krana were an interesting spin, but ultimately weaker, and the Kraata were weaker still. They were harder to identify and couldn't be worn like a mask. Kanoka were a high point, since the code system was interesting but not necessary to memorize in order to enjoy the story. They've been spiraling downward since then. Not only that, the 2009 reboot did away with everything that made BIONICLE special. Mata Nui was a lush, tropical paradise with six unique biomes. Bara Magna is, well, a desert. The Toa were selfless heroes with magnificent elemental powers. The Glatorian were glorified wrestlers. The Matoran and Turaga were diverse, spirited individuals with a rich culture. The Agori were businessmen. I think the case of Makuta vs. Tuma is the most complex. In particular, not having a set of Makuta in 2001 made him seem more ethereal and powerful. The Rahi (except the Manas) were relatively fearsome-looking, and the knowledge that they served Makuta's whim made him a foreboding villain. There was a distinct buildup to the release of the Makuta set in 2003, and they executed in perfectly. The set is freaking creepy, and looks like everything the Master of Shadows should. Tuma has butterfly wings. I rest my case.

I think a lot of the "problems" you point out with the 2009 story really seem to ignore the purpose these elements were supposed to serve. The whole idea of the 2009 story was that Mata Nui came to a broken world and made it better. He gave the Glatorian elemental powers and taught them the selfless sense of duty that defined a Toa. He took a divided culture and helped them unite. As for the Agori... well, they were just as diverse and spirited as the Matoran were, and many of the Matoran were just as business-minded as the Agori were. We just didn't get to meet as many Agori as we did Matoran.The whole story basically embodied the trope "The Magic Comes Back" (to borrow another site's term). And in doing so, it reconstructed many elements of the BIONICLE universe. Kanohi masks and elemental powers, which had basically become commonplace and mundane by this point, were suddenly back to being something unbelievably magical. A world that had resigned itself to a repetitive struggle for survival was revealed to have secrets of its own that transcended its war-torn history, and learned that together they had the power to change their world. A character who had been practically the object of worship for thousands of years had to prove for the first time that he was worthy of that status.I also have to disagree that there was a distinct buildup to the Makuta set in 2003. Until the Rahkshi arc, there were zero hints that Makuta had even survived his defeat in 2001. The Bohrok's release was obviously connected with Makuta's defeat but I understood it as more of a Parthian shot, a contingency plan, or an inadvertent side-effect of defeating him than a sign that he wasn't dead. When he showed up in the comics again after the Bohrok-Kal arc, it left me confused more than anything. The many times Makuta stole the spotlight from other apparent villains felt somewhat awkward for me up until Time Trap when it was finally revealed that letting others win and manipulating events behind-the-scenes was his entire modus operandi, that he wasn't merely being invoked to steal the thunder from villains like the Bahrag, and most importantly that he had a plan which extended beyond merely oppressing helpless Matoran until a team of Toa showed up to save the day.Tuma's back spikes don't look anything like butterfly wings, any more than the Gukko looks like a butterfly. Dragonfly wings would have been closer, if still completely off-base since dragonfly wings aren't spread apart from each other at such an angle. There are tons of characters with similar back spikes: one who jumps to mind is Elecman.exe from the MegaMan Battle Network/MegaMan NT Warrior franchise. It's definitely a good way to make a character imposing, and since spikes were essentially the foundation of the Rock Tribe's visual language it was a key part of Tuma's design.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Jun 16 2013 - 08:10 PM.

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#21 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 08:42 PM

 

Tuma's back spikes don't look anything like butterfly wings, any more than the Gukko looks like a butterfly. Dragonfly wings would have been closer, if still completely off-base since dragonfly wings aren't spread apart from each other at such an angle. There are tons of characters with similar back spikes: one who jumps to mind is Elecman.exe from the MegaMan Battle Network/MegaMan NT Warrior franchise. It's definitely a good way to make a character imposing, and since spikes were essentially the foundation of the Rock Tribe's visual language it was a key part of Tuma's design.

 

Spikes would have been a good idea, but they weren't well-executed. Instead of jutting out and looking imposing, they looked tacked on. But really, what gets me is the face. That >:[ expression is just derpy, not menacing. Also, he looked weird.


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#22 Offline Project Nightfall

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 10:54 PM

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color]

[color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

This wouldn't surprise me at all, considering the backlash caused by Teridax's name caused Greg to avoid revealing TSO's name. Along with the benefits that LEGO gave to BZP while BIONICLE was still a going thing. 

 

But more on topic, LEGO shouldn't have made that whole Mata Nui-returning thing happen at all. That was the starting point from where everything went wrong.


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#23 Offline northmarch

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Posted Jun 16 2013 - 11:05 PM

I  I think the case of Makuta vs. Tuma is the most complex. In particular, not having a set of Makuta in 2001 made him seem more ethereal and powerful. The Rahi (except the Manas) were relatively fearsome-looking, and the knowledge that they served Makuta's whim made him a foreboding villain. There was a distinct buildup to the release of the Makuta set in 2003, and they executed in perfectly. The set is freaking creepy, and looks like everything the Master of Shadows should. Tuma has butterfly wings. I rest my case.

Keep in mind that Tuma wasn't going to be a reoccurring villain for the last two years. (2010, 2011). He was just a minor obstical in the long run, before they dropped out of the race in the last 2km. It dosnt look like the original 2010 villains would even have gotten sets.

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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 12:16 AM

While a lot could have definitely been done better, ultimately the reboot failed simply because nothing LEGO could have done would have brought in new fans enough, compared to simply making a new line, with a new name, new marketing that isn't otherwise possible, etc. as LEGO has said since it happened. Bionicle was simply too old; the label on the sets was the problem, and this has nothing to do with execution of the story. It's primarily just parents walking down a toy aisle and looking at the labels, and when they see "Hero Factory" they go "Oh hey that's new, let's try that". Or so the explanation we were given goes and the logic makes sense to me. :)

 

The extreme complexity of the story was another factor too; not saying these suggestions wouldn't have helped, just that none of them were going to compare to making something new.

 

Also, IMO the story we got worked, coming to a largely satisfying conclusion, as long as you just accept that Bionicle's story always shifts from medium to medium and that's been part of it from the start. (That way the fact that we didn't get a movie after TLR isn't such a problem.) Most of the other issues were minor.

 

So I really don't look at it as "something went wrong" but that we had a story that was always supposed to have a beginning, middle, and end, and it went through it to the end, and that works just fine. :) Sometimes I think some fans make too much out of their knowledge that it wasn't always planned to end quite so early. Story series are always "organic" in that they adapt to real-world considerations. The primary thing that such stories tend to "go wrong" on is failing to have a conclusion (rather than just "oh it wasn't renewed so we'll just cut it off wherever). And every year prior to this was adapted prior to going public in a variety of ways too, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Re: "BZP caused it" -- assuming we're talking about the end of the sets, this is way off base, for two main reasons: 1) BZP's downtime didn't start until after the sets ended, so it's got the timing backwards to begin with (so unless Bionicle fans are time travelers this is impossible), and 2) LEGO was never under the impression that BZP activity had anything to do with sales. One of the big things Greg spent his time reminding people about here was this very fact.

 

If the rumor is referring to why Greg stopped continuing the serials, that very well might be part of it, aside from just losing interest and not having time, but this would not have anything to do with set sales.


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#25 Offline Damaracx Caratas Xarian

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 04:33 AM

Storywise we had a totally uninspiring villain, some serials I forget the events of, and the worlds cheesiest movie.

[color=#ff0000;]Have you seen Mystery Science Theater 3000?  Probably not.  There have been way cheesier movies than that.  Of course I, personally, like it.[/color]

 

[color=#a9a9a9;]Personally I think this reboot was to early.  Back in the day when I was at least nine I was very, very, very confused of what happened to Bionicle when they rebooted it.  You see for fans like I was back then who had only more recently got into bionicle were probably extremely confused with the very sudden new setting.  Which- again takes us to the whole Introducing-Mata-Nui-Earlier-Probably-Would've-Helped-Thing.[/color]


Edited by Damaracx 7.0, Jun 17 2013 - 04:39 AM.

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#26 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 05:30 AM

 

[color=#a9a9a9;]Personally I think this reboot was to early.  Back in the day when I was at least nine I was very, very, very confused of what happened to Bionicle when they rebooted it.  You see for fans like I was back then who had only more recently got into bionicle were probably extremely confused with the very sudden new setting.  Which- again takes us to the whole Introducing-Mata-Nui-Earlier-Probably-Would've-Helped-Thing.[/color]

 

 

That could apply to any year though.  If they rebooted the series a year later than they had, and you weren't confused, somebody who got into the series a year later than you would be confused.  When it came to rebooting, I think Lego were probably fully aware they'd have to alienate a few fans, but they were looking at the bigger picture. 


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#27 Online Gatanui

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 08:24 AM

[color=#990000;]I wouldn't really say the reboot failed in any way, I'd rather say the moment it was chosen to take place was already too late. Personally, I quite liked the 2009 story and the new approach the story was taking.[color=#000080;]-Gata Posted Image[/color][/color]
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#28 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 09:02 AM

Was 09 really a reboot? Its story was still related to that of previous years.

 

If a different setting, situation and characters count as rebooting, then 04 and 06 would also have been reboots.


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#29 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 10:07 AM

I think 2009 is viewed as a reboot because, in the beginning, there was no reference to the previous story years at all. Whereas in 04 we had Turaga Vakama telling the story to the 03 characters and in 06 we saw those same 03 characters in action again. @bones: I don't think Rama~Swarm is referring to the 2011 downtime, but rather the 2008-2009 data wipe.
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#30 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 10:58 AM

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color]

[color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

 

They decided to cancel BIONICLE in 2008, so I doubt this is true.


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#31 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 12:41 PM

I think 2009 is viewed as a reboot because, in the beginning, there was no reference to the previous story years at all. Whereas in 04 we had Turaga Vakama telling the story to the 03 characters and in 06 we saw those same 03 characters in action again.@bones: I don't think Rama~Swarm is referring to the 2011 downtime, but rather the 2008-2009 data wipe.

I considered he might have meant that, but then BZP didn't experience any significant loss of members then, and it wasn't offline for very long (it has gone offline for a while occasionally for years; that was just slightly longer than most -- people were used to BZP going offline now and then!). Probably whoever came up with the rumor was confusing the "Dataclysm" with our later several-months-long downtime (at the end of the old forum).

 

In any case, clearly LEGO wouldn't end the set line because of one online site going offline. BZP fans made up a tiny fraction of the fans buying sets and LEGO was obviously well aware of this. They ended the line because of set sales, nothing else (as we were always warned they could at any time).


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#32 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 11:44 PM

Was 09 really a reboot? Its story was still related to that of previous years.

 

If a different setting, situation and characters count as rebooting, then 04 and 06 would also have been reboots.

 

It was stated by LEGO that it was a reboot to try and make the story accessible to newer fans - which it horribly failed at. I have to agree with bonesii that the sales of the sets must have been the biggest factor in any situation, including the cancellation of Bionicle. I believe, however, that the complicated story plus the other things I mentioned lead to the decrease in sales. The sets were not very innovative or new in 2009. If they were, they might have sparked new and old fans to buy them.

 

And think about the poor kids who bought a set and actually wanted to learn about the story, found Bionicle.com along with Bioniclestory.com, found the serials... and suddenly, all interest is lost due to overwhelming confusion.

 

Reboot means completely revamping a story to meet new fans. 04 and 06 did not do that, because they kept the same setting, same characters, same main story about awaking Mata Nui.


Edited by Toatapio Nuva, Jun 17 2013 - 11:45 PM.

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#33 Offline The Nold

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Posted Jun 20 2013 - 09:23 AM

So what you're saying is Chronicles was the original story, Adventures was a prequel, '06-'07 Legends was a sequel, '08 was another sequel, and '09-'10 was a reboot?I think I can agree with that.

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color][color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

 They decided to cancel BIONICLE in 2008, so I doubt this is true.
I doubt it too, but I'm afraid you're incorrect. In 2008, they were still planning the sets through 2011. I still doubt it, though, just because BZP makes up a very small fraction of Bionicle fans on the BioNet alone. I mean, I had barely even heard of BZP until maybe 6-9 months ago, but I had accounts in... "darker" places on the BioNet.:a::k::i:

Edited by Toa of Awesomeness, Jun 20 2013 - 09:26 AM.

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#34 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 20 2013 - 04:36 PM

So what you're saying is Chronicles was the original story, Adventures was a prequel, '06-'07 Legends was a sequel, '08 was another sequel, and '09-'10 was a reboot?I think I can agree with that. 

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color][color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

 They decided to cancel BIONICLE in 2008, so I doubt this is true.

I doubt it too, but I'm afraid you're incorrect. In 2008, they were still planning the sets through 2011. I still doubt it, though, just because BZP makes up a very small fraction of Bionicle fans on the BioNet alone. I mean, I had barely even heard of BZP until maybe 6-9 months ago, but I had accounts in... "darker" places on the BioNet. :a: :k: :i:

Yes, I think a better way of phrasing that is "they started planning on BIONICLE's eventual end in 2008". That's around when the early development for Hero Factory began. The LEGO Group recognized BIONICLE couldn't last forever but they estimated it had at least a few years of life left in it, and for the most part that was correct. Underwhelming sales performance in 2009 caused BIONICLE's cancellation and Hero Factory's debut to be pushed forward by around a year, but that's not a really big difference in the grand scheme of things.And yes, BZPower's role in the BIONICLE community was relatively minor. We were a passionate and vocal subset of the fanbase but that didn't make us the majority of the fanbase by a long shot. Greg never hesitated to remind us about that either. All things considered, I doubt BZPower even made up 10% of the buying audience for BIONICLE, and we were at the time the largest online BIONICLE fan community (with the possible exception of the LEGO Message Boards).

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#35 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Jun 20 2013 - 07:49 PM

 

So what you're saying is Chronicles was the original story, Adventures was a prequel, '06-'07 Legends was a sequel, '08 was another sequel, and '09-'10 was a reboot?I think I can agree with that. 

 They decided to cancel BIONICLE in 2008, so I doubt this is true.

 

I doubt it too, but I'm afraid you're incorrect. In 2008, they were still planning the sets through 2011. I still doubt it, though, just because BZP makes up a very small fraction of Bionicle fans on the BioNet alone. I mean, I had barely even heard of BZP until maybe 6-9 months ago, but I had accounts in... "darker" places on the BioNet. :a: :k: :i:

 

Yes, I think a better way of phrasing that is "they started planning on BIONICLE's eventual end in 2008". That's around when the early development for Hero Factory began. The LEGO Group recognized BIONICLE couldn't last forever but they estimated it had at least a few years of life left in it, and for the most part that was correct. Underwhelming sales performance in 2009 caused BIONICLE's cancellation and Hero Factory's debut to be pushed forward by around a year, but that's not a really big difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

Another point worth mentioning is that a sequel to The Legend Reborn was in planning at the time of the cancellation. We know this for sure, because a script with an outline of the events and some dialogue was posted by Greg Farshtey on his blog in January 2010.

 

Obviously Lego don't make movies without relevant sets to promote, so Bionicle sets for the time of the movie's release (presumably late '10) must've been planned at some point. That doesn't correlate with them deciding to cancel the line two years before. Mid-late '09 would be a more accurate time period for this.


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#36 Offline InnerRayg

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Posted Jun 20 2013 - 11:58 PM

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color][color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

haha, this is so hilariously not correct it's amazing.I promise you as a guy who has talked with people who actually know the guys who helped make Bionicle a success it didn't have nothing to do with BZPower, and there was nothing in 2009 they could have done differently that would have made it last any longer. The factors were outside of anyone's control.

Edited by InnerRayg, Jun 20 2013 - 11:58 PM.

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#37 Offline Mehul

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Posted Jun 26 2013 - 06:46 PM

 Off topic:

[color=rgb(128,0,128);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;background-color:rgb(245,245,255);]I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

 

The way I interpreted the video was that it was greatly exaggerating facts and was just made to show ridiculous the theory sounds. Despite being the largest bionicle fansite Bzp represents about a fraction of what the fan base is and while the ill timed downtime may have caused some members to leave this glorious forum; suggesting that Bzp was the cause of the end is quite frankly dumb.

 

On Topic:

 

For me the reasons for 2009's failure was the lack of focus on where the story was going. I mean Mata Nui doesn't even show up until the second half! I understand that BM needed to explored, its lore explained but surely this could have been done via Mata Nui, what with him acting as a proxy for us in a strange new world.

 

Also TLR  Kiina. Nuff said.

 

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Edited by Mehul, Jun 26 2013 - 06:48 PM.

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#38 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 09:23 AM

Also TLR  Kiina. Nuff said.

I have honestly never understood all the complaints about Kiina's portrayal in TLR. What is it about her bubbly personality that people felt was so damaging to the story? I'm all for diverse characters, but it sometimes seems like some people would rather have every character be grim and serious all the time... which is exactly the kind of bland characterization that Greg Farshtey and the other writers set out to avoid from as early as 2001.

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#39 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 10:34 AM

"Whoohooooo!"Or something along those lines. I never got why that line was a problem, but some people certainly thought it was.
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#40 Offline Mehul

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 11:23 AM

I have honestly never understood all the complaints about Kiina's portrayal in TLR. What is it about her bubbly personality that people felt was so damaging to the story? I'm all for diverse characters, but it sometimes seems like some people would rather have every character be grim and serious all the time... which is exactly the kind of bland characterization that Greg Farshtey and the other writers set out to avoid from as early as 2001.

 

 

Well I though that this had been discussed before but since you ask, its not that I want everyone to be all broody or dark. That would be as you say boring.

 

I did not mean TLR Kiina was the sole cause of the reboots failure- more like thte cherry on top of a ice cream sunday that has been left out in the sun to long. Even that is an over exaggeration, I'll admit I tend not to like characters with this sort of personality i.e. people who go "Wooohooo" in any media, its personal taste. That other people also didn't like her is coincidence.

 
The main reason for the reboots failure to me is the introduction of a central character a bit too late. I never really stopped thinking of Mata Nui as the deity he was as there just not enough time to familiarise with him.

Edited by Mehul, Jun 27 2013 - 11:23 AM.

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