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2009 Reboot - what went wrong?

2009 reboot wrong

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#41 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 11:30 AM

"Whoohooooo!"Or something along those lines. I never got why that line was a problem, but some people certainly thought it was.

Yeah. And all in all, it just bugs me. It's just one of several lines or voices that people dislike from the BIONICLE movies for perfectly arbitrary reasons. Specifically, any voice that is high-pitched, excited, or childlike (examples: Lewa, Kiina, Berix, or any Matoran) tends to get a lot of arbitrary hate.Perhaps it's just an extension of how some people prefer to think of BIONICLE as a lot more grown-up and serious than it ever was or was ever meant to be. BIONICLE is and has always been for kids — yes, even the books and serials that got into a little bit darker territory than the movies from time to time. In 2001, this was perfectly evident, with the Mata Nui Online Game and the BIONICLE Game Boy Advance game being full of humor in spite of sometimes giving a very real sense of danger. Even the 2002 and 2003 story animations had a great deal of humor, colorful, cartoony visuals, and wacky characters. So it's hard to really imagine how even as early as 2003, people were getting the notion in their heads that BIONICLE was too serious for a kids' movie to do it justice.Anyway, if people think a franchise isn't mature or serious if there are characters in it who are portrayed as remotely childlike, they're woefully out-of-touch, full stop. Just compare Avatar: The Last Airbender, which people of all ages have enjoyed, to the movie The Last Airbender, which people of all ages have reviled. The former had lots of humor, a generally kid-friendly story, and acting with a whole lot of emotion. The latter was consistently taking itself far too seriously, with most of the characters' portrayals being extremely wooden. Don't get me wrong, I managed to enjoy the movie in spite of all its flaws. But for all the effort that went into making it a serious film, it simply didn't have the heart the original cartoon had.When BIONICLE ended, this out-of-touch attitude came to a head, with people assuming it was "too serious" for the kids the LEGO Group wanted to attract. Hahahahaha...no. "Seriousness" was not BIONICLE's problem, nor, for that matter, was silliness. As far as story was concerned, it was more a matter of continuity lockout. There was just much more continuity than new fans of any age would likely be willing to digest. This isn't to say there weren't ANY fans who would become interested enough to devote hours and possibly even a monetary investment to learning the BIONICLE story. But the theme was certainly losing fans faster than it was gaining them, and that was reflected in set and media sales.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Jun 27 2013 - 11:31 AM.

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#42 Offline Mehul

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 01:31 PM

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]Yeah. And all in all, it just bugs me. It's just one of several lines or voices that people dislike from the BIONICLE movies for perfectly arbitrary reasons. Specifically, any voice that is high-pitched, excited, or childlike (examples: Lewa, Kiina, Berix, or any Matoran) tends to get a lot of arbitrary hate.[/color]

 

A bit off topic, but I love Lewa and matoran are pretty diverse. I can't say for certain for others but the reason Kiina's characters is not liked is that it is not very orignal and almost follows the completely the standard stereotype of bubbly cheerful girl in JRPGs. It's a very specific type of character and while novel the first time it looses its charm... For me at least wanting seriousness had nothing to do with it.

 

Once again I don't feel anyone can say TLR Kiina is so bad it ruined the franchise. Its just the character highlighted a story year that did not flow properly. 


Edited by Mehul, Jun 27 2013 - 01:34 PM.

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#43 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 03:22 PM

It was really dull, frankly.The concept of Glatorian is uninteresting because they are fighting for no adequately explained reason, and the outcome of the match is pretty much nothing. Story plot points, like the whole Spherus Magna thing and the Baterra were randomly revealed. There were way too many characters that weren't featured in the story at all or who had no defining personalities.

 

Aanchir, the problem with the Kiina scream wasn't because it was obviously designed to appeal to kids. It's because it was @#$%&*#@#$!#$ ANNOYING. If it was in any way amusing, then people wouldn't hate it. Same goes for  the Last Airbender movie. It was thoroughly unenjoyable  for a number of reasons, namely terrible rendition of story, poor pacing, horrendous acting, unabashedly racist casting decisions, bad CGI, etc. Being dark didn't have anything to do with it.


Edited by Toa Zaz, Jun 27 2013 - 03:28 PM.

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#44 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 04:18 PM

Specifically, any voice that is high-pitched, excited, or childlike (examples: Lewa, Kiina, Berix, or any Matoran) tends to get a lot of arbitrary hate.Perhaps it's just an extension of how some people prefer to think of BIONICLE as a lot more grown-up and serious than it ever was or was ever meant to be. BIONICLE is and has always been for kids — yes, even the books and serials that got into a little bit darker territory than the movies from time to time. In 2001, this was perfectly evident, with the Mata Nui Online Game and the BIONICLE Game Boy Advance game being full of humor in spite of sometimes giving a very real sense of danger.

 

Well, as far as the voice thing goes, I suspect a lot of it is just that we started out being unable to hear their voices except as imagination in our heads... and partly the sorry state of basic physics education in our world. :P A small being will generally have a higher-pitched voice (I think of my pet male cat, who is very high-pitched and has no idea it sounds silly lol), so it was proper all along to imagine Matoran voices that way for example. But even I was so used to just reading along with mere text in MNOG for example, that when I did hear Matoran in MOL I thought it was jarring. And I even knew better. It's just human nature.

 

I don't know if there's any realistic way around that part of it. :shrugs:


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#45 Offline ankyfdarkness

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 04:53 PM

[color=#800080;]There's a theory circulating that it was BZP that caused it to be cancelled. [/color][color=#800080;]Apparently BZP went down for a long time shortly before Bionicle was cancelled. Since BZP holds a firm monopoly on Bionicle discussion most fans had nowhere else to go. When BZP finally came back the daily population had dropped significantly. Lego saw the drop in the popularity of BZP as a drop in the popularity of Bionicle and overreacted by cancelling Bionicle altogether.What Lego didn't understand was that most of the people who left had already lost interest in Bioncle and stuck around for the community. The sale of Bionicle products would not likely have been effected at all.There's a video out there called Bionicle Autopsy:The Monopoly of BZPower where they talk about this. I'd provide a link, but it's on a website we can't link to. If you do watch it take what you read with a grain of salt because the author seems to be a conspiracy theorist of sorts and talks about a shadow organization he claimed helped BZP destroy its competition.I'm not saying this is in fact why Bionicle was cancelled, but it is a believable theory.[/color]

haha, this is so hilariously not correct it's amazing.I promise you as a guy who has talked with people who actually know the guys who helped make Bionicle a success it didn't have nothing to do with BZPower, and there was nothing in 2009 they could have done differently that would have made it last any longer. The factors were outside of anyone's control.

This seems to represent my thoughts on the matter the best. Nothing in 2009 could have been done differently to save the line, it was Bionicle's name in and of itself that had to change, as others on this thread have already said.EDIT: As for Kiina, I can't believe people are still beating that dead horse. Yeah, some of her lines could be irritating, but after finally watching the movie I realized that this site had blow how annoying she was out of proportion.Also, if when asked what was bad about 2009 and the first thing that comes to mind is Kiina's voice, I tend to think there really wasn't all that much wrong with 2009.Also, I like Kiina. There, I said it. :P

Edited by ankyfdarkness, Jun 27 2013 - 04:58 PM.

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#46 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 05:15 PM

Aanchir, the problem with the Kiina scream wasn't because it was obviously designed to appeal to kids. It's because it was @#$%&*#@#$!#$ ANNOYING. 

Is this the attitude you take towards real people with that kind of voice and personality? Because if so... well, I feel quite sorry for the people in your life. Not just the people with that kind of voice and personality, but anyone who has to suffer that kind of disagreeable attitude. Just try to avoid roller coasters and extreme sports please.What I find "@#$%&*#@#$!#$ annoying" is melodramatic whining on internet forums from people who completely lose any sense of (figurative) volume control when typing. Thankfully, I'm usually lucky enough not to encounter such people. And again, I certainly hope you're not like that in real life as well.Seriously, that kind of complaint about Kiina makes about as much sense who say they hate Applejack from My Little Pony because they hate southern accents. Or the people who complain about Mark Surge's high-pitched voice in the Hero Factory TV show. It's just an arbitrary bias (almost bordering on bigotry) that you'd hope people would be enlightened enough to get over instead of having to complain about it to the rest of the world.Would I want to watch a whole movie of Kiina wailing at me? Of course not. I wouldn't want to watch a whole movie of ANYONE wailing at me. But if the occasional situation calls for her to shout "Woo-Hoo" or scream or whatever it is that bothers people so much, then expecting her not to do that would be going against her character. If you don't like her character? Well, she's just one character. But just consider that if a few lines from a single character in a single movie gets you that hot and bothered that you have to shout at people through a computer screen, maybe it's less the movie's problem and more your own.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Jun 27 2013 - 05:16 PM.

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#47 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 06:06 PM

If I may, perhaps people are taking the Woohoo Scream a little too seriously? My interpretation was that it indicated that Kiina was happy about something (I don't even remember what). That's likely all it was meant to convey. It wasn't supposed to be like a rock concert or something. :P Just keep things in perspective. :)


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#48 Offline Mehul

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 06:15 PM

We seem to be discussing things that might be more relevant to this topic rather that what the OP was asking...

 

@Aachir, I do believe your taking Zaz's statement a little to seriously. The problem with text is any tone or indication of exaggeration is lost. That being said I wonder what is wrong with not particularly liking a certain type of personality? I realise that finding her voice annoying is a wishy - washy sort of a reason to not liking a character but it's the truth. I don't understand how disliking Kiina-esque personality = unpleasant person.

 

 

What I mean is its fine that you don't mind Kiina and its fine that me and Toa Zaz aren't fond of the charater type. 


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#49 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 07:34 PM

We seem to be discussing things that might be more relevant to this topic rather that what the OP was asking... @Aachir, I do believe your taking Zaz's statement a little to seriously. The problem with text is any tone or indication of exaggeration is lost. That being said I wonder what is wrong with not particularly liking a certain type of personality? I realise that finding her voice annoying is a wishy - washy sort of a reason to not liking a character but it's the truth. I don't understand how disliking Kiina-esque personality = unpleasant person.

It's fine to dislike a character if they annoy you for whatever reason. It's fine to TELL other people you dislike them for that reason. But if a character's voice and mannerisms annoy you so much that it compels you to shout at other people through your keyboard, that's another issue entirely. If a person annoys me in real life, my impulse isn't to shout at other people about how much that person annoys me. So doing so about a fictional character from a kids' movie in an otherwise civil online discussion just seems immature and petty.

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#50 Offline Flex Likes Groot

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 08:31 PM

Did anyone feel like the plastic or parts of 2009 was different or not as good quality as 08 and before? I don't know for some reason the Glatorian sets plastic always felt weird. Possibly it was their helmets.


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#51 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted Jun 27 2013 - 08:33 PM

 

Aanchir, the problem with the Kiina scream wasn't because it was obviously designed to appeal to kids. It's because it was @#$%&*#@#$!#$ ANNOYING. 

Is this the attitude you take towards real people with that kind of voice and personality? Because if so... well, I feel quite sorry for the people in your life. Not just the people with that kind of voice and personality, but anyone who has to suffer that kind of disagreeable attitude. Just try to avoid roller coasters and extreme sports please.What I find "@#$%&*#@#$!#$ annoying" is melodramatic whining on internet forums from people who completely lose any sense of (figurative) volume control when typing. Thankfully, I'm usually lucky enough not to encounter such people. And again, I certainly hope you're not like that in real life as well.Seriously, that kind of complaint about Kiina makes about as much sense who say they hate Applejack from My Little Pony because they hate southern accents. Or the people who complain about Mark Surge's high-pitched voice in the Hero Factory TV show. It's just an arbitrary bias (almost bordering on bigotry) that you'd hope people would be enlightened enough to get over instead of having to complain about it to the rest of the world.Would I want to watch a whole movie of Kiina wailing at me? Of course not. I wouldn't want to watch a whole movie of ANYONE wailing at me. But if the occasional situation calls for her to shout "Woo-Hoo" or scream or whatever it is that bothers people so much, then expecting her not to do that would be going against her character. If you don't like her character? Well, she's just one character. But just consider that if a few lines from a single character in a single movie gets you that hot and bothered that you have to shout at people through a computer screen, maybe it's less the movie's problem and more your own.

 

...?

 

 

...Sorry. Fine. The all-caps thing was kind of a joke, based on some collective opinions on Kiina. I kind of just though, "hey, I'll just make this in all caps, because so many people dislike Kiina it would be kind of amusing to have it be emphasized so much. Might as well." even though I agree with them. I seriously didn't mean to offend you or anything. Maybe I should have just said "because it was annoying," and have gotten the same point across in a less hyperbolic manner. My apologies.

In all seriousness, though, comparing an annoyingly overeager character that conflicts with established personality traits to somebody with a Southern accent, a perfectly normal person, is kind of offensive. I don't think it's the voice, I think it's the obnoxious and grating personality. I don't like Surge, either, because he says annoying stuff all the time (whoooooooooooaaaaaaaaaa, etc). And you say it's just one character, but there's also Berix and Gresh and Tuma. Eventually the poor characterization starts to add up.

 

...Also, you know I'm not like that it real life, because we met at Brickfair last year.


Edited by Toa Zaz, Jun 27 2013 - 08:34 PM.

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#52 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 09:53 AM

The Woohoo thing was because Kiina was happy to meet someone "from another world", so she was happy to have her theory confirmed. It's something we don't understand much. 

 

If I met someone from another world, my first response would be more on the lines of "do you want to kill me? What are you doing here?" rather than "Woohoo!". It seems to evidence childish naivete rather than appreciation of the power and danger Mata Nui represents. Contrast Ackar's statement "I'd trust her with my life." Really, man, you would trust that naive girl who reacts to things like that with your life? Really?

 

In some respects, it's justified because Kiina evidences this naivete later in the film, with the "I am going to jump up in the air and shoot water just because." scene, and Ackar does correct her then. That sort of childishness though contrasts heavily with the dark and cynical atmosphere of the entire film, and the contrast stands out as really noticeable. And then people complain about it because A) it strikes as inconsistent, and B) it's something we don't really know. 

 

* * *

 

Anyway, I thought on this a little bit more. I know I said that Mata Nui's arrival should have come first and then we should have had backstory later, but I think there would have been an even better way to do it.

 

A camera pan. Just a few seconds. Showing the giant robot standing up on Aqua Magna, then swinging away though outer space toward Bara Magna, enough to establish that Aqua Magna (the planet where the giant robot was) was close to Bara Magna. Maybe give a shot of the traveling Mata Nui and the UDD symbol for fun. 

 

The thing is, that would have established a connection between the giant robot and Bara Magna. We could have speculated on why the robot was there, asked questions, etc, and been a whole lot more invested in the story. For all I knew Bara Magna was just some random planet out there. Once I knew that there was a connection with the eight years of story I had just spent eagerly following, 2009 wasn't such a bad year. In hindsight, it was a really nice story. Over time, I've actually come to appreciate it. 

 

And the other thing, they wouldn't have had to make that video prominent or anything. I think that they should have posted it on Bioniclestory.com, instead of a lame commercial for Glatorian sets. :shrugs: 


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#53 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 10:45 AM

Did anyone feel like the plastic or parts of 2009 was different or not as good quality as 08 and before? I don't know for some reason the Glatorian sets plastic always felt weird. Possibly it was their helmets.

The Glatorian helmets DID seem to be a different formulation than that of most earlier masks, but that's not to say the quality was worse. In fact, I'd say it was much BETTER than some previous years, such as the atrociously scratchable Avohkii of 2003. The Glatorian helmets were likely softer so that they could better work in thin details like the flames shooting out of Malum's helmet, or the spiky icicles on Gelu's. That plastic formulation seems to have continued to be used on weapons and masks in Hero Factory.


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#54 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 11:42 AM

Aanchir, the problem with the Kiina scream wasn't because it was obviously designed to appeal to kids. It's because it was @#$%&*#@#$!#$ ANNOYING. 

Is this the attitude you take towards real people with that kind of voice and personality? Because if so... well, I feel quite sorry for the people in your life. Not just the people with that kind of voice and personality, but anyone who has to suffer that kind of disagreeable attitude. Just try to avoid roller coasters and extreme sports please.What I find "@#$%&*#@#$!#$ annoying" is melodramatic whining on internet forums from people who completely lose any sense of (figurative) volume control when typing. Thankfully, I'm usually lucky enough not to encounter such people. And again, I certainly hope you're not like that in real life as well.Seriously, that kind of complaint about Kiina makes about as much sense who say they hate Applejack from My Little Pony because they hate southern accents. Or the people who complain about Mark Surge's high-pitched voice in the Hero Factory TV show. It's just an arbitrary bias (almost bordering on bigotry) that you'd hope people would be enlightened enough to get over instead of having to complain about it to the rest of the world.Would I want to watch a whole movie of Kiina wailing at me? Of course not. I wouldn't want to watch a whole movie of ANYONE wailing at me. But if the occasional situation calls for her to shout "Woo-Hoo" or scream or whatever it is that bothers people so much, then expecting her not to do that would be going against her character. If you don't like her character? Well, she's just one character. But just consider that if a few lines from a single character in a single movie gets you that hot and bothered that you have to shout at people through a computer screen, maybe it's less the movie's problem and more your own.

...?  ...Sorry. Fine. The all-caps thing was kind of a joke, based on some collective opinions on Kiina. I kind of just though, "hey, I'll just make this in all caps, because so many people dislike Kiina it would be kind of amusing to have it be emphasized so much. Might as well." even though I agree with them. I seriously didn't mean to offend you or anything. Maybe I should have just said "because it was annoying," and have gotten the same point across in a less hyperbolic manner. My apologies.In all seriousness, though, comparing an annoyingly overeager character that conflicts with established personality traits to somebody with a Southern accent, a perfectly normal person, is kind of offensive. I don't think it's the voice, I think it's the obnoxious and grating personality. I don't like Surge, either, because he says annoying stuff all the time (whoooooooooooaaaaaaaaaa, etc). And you say it's just one character, but there's also Berix and Gresh and Tuma. Eventually the poor characterization starts to add up. ...Also, you know I'm not like that it real life, because we met at Brickfair last year.

Okay, I accept your apology. I apologize if I got a bit short with you. I don't like feeling like I'm being shouted at.I felt the characterization of Berix, Gresh, and Kiina worked fairly well and helped to give the cast a bit of diversity. It's true, novice characters like Gresh, perky characters like Kiina, and kleptomaniac characters like Berix are fairly common in some other works, but not in BIONICLE. Tuma was also a bit unique in BIONICLE (very few characters in the series ruled by might alone rather than by cunning, and even fewer had that theatrical sort of ego to back it up), but I can see why he more than any of the others seems really flat compared to other characters in previous story years, who tended to have a bit more depth. 

The Woohoo thing was because Kiina was happy to meet someone "from another world", so she was happy to have her theory confirmed. It's something we don't understand much.  If I met someone from another world, my first response would be more on the lines of "do you want to kill me? What are you doing here?" rather than "Woohoo!". It seems to evidence childish naivete rather than appreciation of the power and danger Mata Nui represents. Contrast Ackar's statement "I'd trust her with my life." Really, man, you would trust that naive girl who reacts to things like that with your life? Really? In some respects, it's justified because Kiina evidences this naivete later in the film, with the "I am going to jump up in the air and shoot water just because." scene, and Ackar does correct her then. That sort of childishness though contrasts heavily with the dark and cynical atmosphere of the entire film, and the contrast stands out as really noticeable. And then people complain about it because A) it strikes as inconsistent, and B) it's something we don't really know.

I found that an important part of Kiina's character, myself. She wants a life outside the grim tediousness of Bara Magna, because she just doesn't feel like she fits in that world. She's determined to be herself at any cost, even if it means chasing a dream of a world that suits her, which may or may not exist. Every bit of magic and mystery she encounters delights her because to her it proves her belief that there was more to life than what she knew. My twin brother was discussing this with me yesterday evening and compared her to Ariel from The Little Mermaid in this regard. It's a somewhat fitting comparison, except instead of having a misguided belief that the grass is greener on the other side, she was the only one in her society who even thought there might be another side, until Mata Nui showed up.Perhaps some further exposition in TLR could have helped establish what exactly it was she was so intent on escaping from. The staging helped establish that it was barren, and the whole Glatorian system hinted that Bara Magna society was somewhat crude, barbaric, and divided. But a little more explanation from Ackar and Raanu about why the Glatorian system was so vital to society, describing the scarcity of resources and the downright deadliness of the place, would have made a huge difference.

Anyway, I thought on this a little bit more. I know I said that Mata Nui's arrival should have come first and then we should have had backstory later, but I think there would have been an even better way to do it.  A camera pan. Just a few seconds. Showing the giant robot standing up on Aqua Magna, then swinging away though outer space toward Bara Magna, enough to establish that Aqua Magna (the planet where the giant robot was) was close to Bara Magna. Maybe give a shot of the traveling Mata Nui and the UDD symbol for fun.  The thing is, that would have established a connection between the giant robot and Bara Magna. We could have speculated on why the robot was there, asked questions, etc, and been a whole lot more invested in the story. For all I knew Bara Magna was just some random planet out there. Once I knew that there was a connection with the eight years of story I had just spent eagerly following, 2009 wasn't such a bad year. In hindsight, it was a really nice story. Over time, I've actually come to appreciate it.  And the other thing, they wouldn't have had to make that video prominent or anything. I think that they should have posted it on Bioniclestory.com, instead of a lame commercial for Glatorian sets. :shrugs: 

That sort of promotional video could have been interesting, I suppose. I think the story team's compelling desire to keep secrets might have been a factor in why they didn't do such a thing. There were a few hints dropped in the serials and promotional art that Mata Nui had a connection to Bara Magna, but the story team wanted The Legend Reborn to be the first thing to cement that connection.

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#55 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 05:56 PM

 

The Woohoo thing was because Kiina was happy to meet someone "from another world", so she was happy to have her theory confirmed. It's something we don't understand much.  If I met someone from another world, my first response would be more on the lines of "do you want to kill me? What are you doing here?" rather than "Woohoo!". It seems to evidence childish naivete rather than appreciation of the power and danger Mata Nui represents. Contrast Ackar's statement "I'd trust her with my life." Really, man, you would trust that naive girl who reacts to things like that with your life? Really? In some respects, it's justified because Kiina evidences this naivete later in the film, with the "I am going to jump up in the air and shoot water just because." scene, and Ackar does correct her then. That sort of childishness though contrasts heavily with the dark and cynical atmosphere of the entire film, and the contrast stands out as really noticeable. And then people complain about it because A) it strikes as inconsistent, and B) it's something we don't really know.

I found that an important part of Kiina's character, myself. She wants a life outside the grim tediousness of Bara Magna, because she just doesn't feel like she fits in that world. She's determined to be herself at any cost, even if it means chasing a dream of a world that suits her, which may or may not exist. Every bit of magic and mystery she encounters delights her because to her it proves her belief that there was more to life than what she knew. My twin brother was discussing this with me yesterday evening and compared her to Ariel from The Little Mermaid in this regard. It's a somewhat fitting comparison, except instead of having a misguided belief that the grass is greener on the other side, she was the only one in her society who even thought there might be another side, until Mata Nui showed up.

 

Fair enough. It's just something that I feel like the audience had trouble relating to, for the reasons I stated. It might have helped to have some sort of exposition explaining why Kiina had that belief. I think the Tajun "secret lab" scene was meant to convey that, but it didn't do it very well.  

Perhaps some further exposition in TLR could have helped establish what exactly it was she was so intent on escaping from. The staging helped establish that it was barren, and the whole Glatorian system hinted that Bara Magna society was somewhat crude, barbaric, and divided. But a little more explanation from Ackar and Raanu about why the Glatorian system was so vital to society, describing the scarcity of resources and the downright deadliness of the place, would have made a huge difference.

That was what the whole early 2009 story was trying to convey. But it's possible that some fans might have not bothered to follow that story, then picked up the Legend Reborn, and so that might have helped. 

 

Anyway, I thought on this a little bit more. I know I said that Mata Nui's arrival should have come first and then we should have had backstory later, but I think there would have been an even better way to do it.  A camera pan. Just a few seconds. Showing the giant robot standing up on Aqua Magna, then swinging away though outer space toward Bara Magna, enough to establish that Aqua Magna (the planet where the giant robot was) was close to Bara Magna. Maybe give a shot of the traveling Mata Nui and the UDD symbol for fun.  The thing is, that would have established a connection between the giant robot and Bara Magna. We could have speculated on why the robot was there, asked questions, etc, and been a whole lot more invested in the story. For all I knew Bara Magna was just some random planet out there. Once I knew that there was a connection with the eight years of story I had just spent eagerly following, 2009 wasn't such a bad year. In hindsight, it was a really nice story. Over time, I've actually come to appreciate it.  And the other thing, they wouldn't have had to make that video prominent or anything. I think that they should have posted it on Bioniclestory.com, instead of a lame commercial for Glatorian sets. :shrugs: 

That sort of promotional video could have been interesting, I suppose. I think the story team's compelling desire to keep secrets might have been a factor in why they didn't do such a thing. There were a few hints dropped in the serials and promotional art that Mata Nui had a connection to Bara Magna, but the story team wanted The Legend Reborn to be the first thing to cement that connection.

 

I think keeping that thing a secret was a bad idea. I'm all for writers withholding information to make a story more enjoyable, but the reader has to have a reason to follow a story. Maybe this is just me, but in 2009 I didn't have enough of a reason. I had a slender hope that this diversion off into this random planet had a connection to things that I knew. But for the most of the early half of 2009 I wasn't engaged, just waiting for that connection to appear. Further, I think I can tell from the reactions here that whether or not BM was connected to Mata Nui was not a driving mystery by any means (it was a "Like You Would Really Do It" moment anyway, and if they were really going for completely unrelated after that Plot Twist, the fan backlash would be through the roof) , and holding it off didn't increase sales for the Legend Reborn - they blew that one on the website before the movie came out. (I mean, seriously, if that was a big movie spoiling secret, why did they do that?) 

 

I'm of the opinion that they withheld that information solely and entirely for the purpose of it being a reboot. The main driving point should have been what the connection between Mata Nui and Bara Magna was. But that additional uncertainty - "does this really have any relevance at all?" really hurt. 

 

In addition, and I'm just throwing this out there from my former personage as a fan who didn't know about BZP, after 2008 I expected Bionicle to end and even wanted it to end. "Mata Nui is going to awake, all good, close it up." Diving off into something I knew nothing about felt like a cheap way to extend the story, especially after the plot twist. The plot twist made sense, but what happened next...it just made me feel like they just left the whole thing behind. And they had. So I was irritated and ticked off at them, really. And then they ended it the way they did, which brought me to BZP with a bitter taste in the mouth and looking for sympathy for my cause and causing a train wreck. (But that's not either here nor there, so I'll leave it at that.)


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#56 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 08:43 PM

I think it was largely execution rather than the ideas behind what was done in TLR that irked people. Like, Kiina's struggles as a believer in all this offworld stuff could have been done in an interesting and character-focused way rather than a trivial side detail that was hard to notice.

 

And the Tuma battle comes to mind of course. The idea of the battle was great, just yeah. Anyways, yeah, we probably should focus on 2009 in general more since there's a topic for TLR likes/dislikes. Ultimately I doubt the movie played much of a role in the reboot going wrong. If anything it probably was largely a dampener in the problems which were mainly that Bionicle was just too old and too complex for new fans to get into. The movie's flaws specifically aren't likely to be seen as flaws by the target "new fans" age anyways.


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#57 Offline Shadow Destroyer

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 11:55 PM

I do believe however that Bionicle was canceled due to it loosing its creativity and uniqueness in set design and the complicated storyline, which was difficult to follow.

 

 

This.

 

I think that the sets were lackluster, and the story was as well. That's what caused it to not sell very well. That and the economy of course...


Edited by Shadow Destroyer, Jun 28 2013 - 11:56 PM.

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#58 Offline AdaptingChaos

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Posted Jun 29 2013 - 07:46 AM

 

I do believe however that Bionicle was canceled due to it loosing its creativity and uniqueness in set design and the complicated storyline, which was difficult to follow.

 

 

This.

 

I think that the sets were lackluster, and the story was as well. That's what caused it to not sell very well. That and the economy of course...

 

Lol I agree :)

A bit sad really


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#59 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Jun 29 2013 - 10:28 AM

I do believe however that Bionicle was canceled due to it loosing its creativity and uniqueness in set design and the complicated storyline, which was difficult to follow.

 This. I think that the sets were lackluster, and the story was as well. That's what caused it to not sell very well. That and the economy of course...

I thought the 2009 sets were great. There were lots of very clever and compelling figure designs. Tarix is the only Glatorian of the first wave who was especially plain-looking; the others all had loads of personality. The Glatorian Legends were much plainer humanoid builds in many cases, but even among that series, Mata Nui, Stronius, Ackar, and Gelu were all VERY well-received for having a lot of personality to their designs. Some of these sets had flaws, like Vastus's thin, empty torso design and excessively-specialized "snake armor", but on the whole they did a great job exploring BIONICLE's traditional elemental motifs in a new and exciting way.The Agori were not especially exciting, given that they reused the same small set design from the previous year, but at the same time, they still had a lot more uniqueness to them than the previous year's small sets. Instead of identical wings and jetpacks, formulaic color schemes, and repetitive dual silver weapons, they had much more interesting and colorful armor and armaments. Metus, Berix, and Raanu carried shields in one hand and melee weapons in the other (with Berix's innovative "water sword" attached to his back by a tube), Tarduk had four claws, Zesk was non-humanoid, and Atakus had glow-in-the-dark weapons.The sets also introduced the action figure game, which brought BIONICLE back to its roots in a certain sense by re-introducing a structured competitive fighting component. It was not the most effective and I feel it was poorly promoted (the interactive online instructions were very confusing), but it was a new idea regardless.Titan sets were one of the only places 2009 sets really suffered. Both Toa Mata Nui and Tuma used new hip suspension styles which, all things considered, did not lend themselves to the shapely hips and waist of the 2008 Takanuva set. Tuma's entire design felt blocky, and many parts of it were not very solid. The Toa Mata Nui set, in many ways, was just a re-imagining of the build Takanuva had used, and while his completely custom Technic-based torso was innovative, it and the rest of his design lacked the streamlined, refined look that Takanuva had, instead ending up with a gappier design with lots of exposed Technic beams. Color layering on Toa Mata Nui was also a bit wonky, what with superfluous Warm Gold elements scattered haphazardly and Bright Yellow and Flame Yellowish Orange competing for dominance. Now, I recently pulled out the box where I have Toa Mata Nui stored, and his design is not as bad as I had remembered it, but it still was nowhere near as refined as the 2008 Takanuva set or even later sets like Witch Doctor from the Hero Factory theme.Another way the 2009 sets were a bit of a letdown was that there were just too many characters. In some respects, this helped with world-building — it would have been somewhat awkward in a brand-new setting if there were only a handful of characters with defined personalities. But with eleven Glatorian, Mata Nui, Tuma, and nine Agori, there was no way all of them would be able to get enough of a spotlight in the story for people to become attached to them. Not with so little media that year, at any rate.Overall, though, I don't think the 2009 sets lacked quality to any substantially greater extent than any previous year. I have very fond memories of the 2009 sets. In general they were colorful, diverse, and packed with personality.

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#60 Offline AdaptingChaos

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Posted Jun 29 2013 - 11:26 AM

 

 

I do believe however that Bionicle was canceled due to it loosing its creativity and uniqueness in set design and the complicated storyline, which was difficult to follow.

 This. I think that the sets were lackluster, and the story was as well. That's what caused it to not sell very well. That and the economy of course...

 

I thought the 2009 sets were great. There were lots of very clever and compelling figure designs. Tarix is the only Glatorian of the first wave who was especially plain-looking; the others all had loads of personality. The Glatorian Legends were much plainer humanoid builds in many cases, but even among that series, Mata Nui, Stronius, Ackar, and Gelu were all VERY well-received for having a lot of personality to their designs. Some of these sets had flaws, like Vastus's thin, empty torso design and excessively-specialized "snake armor", but on the whole they did a great job exploring BIONICLE's traditional elemental motifs in a new and exciting way.The Agori were not especially exciting, given that they reused the same small set design from the previous year, but at the same time, they still had a lot more uniqueness to them than the previous year's small sets. Instead of identical wings and jetpacks, formulaic color schemes, and repetitive dual silver weapons, they had much more interesting and colorful armor and armaments. Metus, Berix, and Raanu carried shields in one hand and melee weapons in the other (with Berix's innovative "water sword" attached to his back by a tube), Tarduk had four claws, Zesk was non-humanoid, and Atakus had glow-in-the-dark weapons.The sets also introduced the action figure game, which brought BIONICLE back to its roots in a certain sense by re-introducing a structured competitive fighting component. It was not the most effective and I feel it was poorly promoted (the interactive online instructions were very confusing), but it was a new idea regardless.Titan sets were one of the only places 2009 sets really suffered. Both Toa Mata Nui and Tuma used new hip suspension styles which, all things considered, did not lend themselves to the shapely hips and waist of the 2008 Takanuva set. Tuma's entire design felt blocky, and many parts of it were not very solid. The Toa Mata Nui set, in many ways, was just a re-imagining of the build Takanuva had used, and while his completely custom Technic-based torso was innovative, it and the rest of his design lacked the streamlined, refined look that Takanuva had, instead ending up with a gappier design with lots of exposed Technic beams. Color layering on Toa Mata Nui was also a bit wonky, what with superfluous Warm Gold elements scattered haphazardly and Bright Yellow and Flame Yellowish Orange competing for dominance. Now, I recently pulled out the box where I have Toa Mata Nui stored, and his design is not as bad as I had remembered it, but it still was nowhere near as refined as the 2008 Takanuva set or even later sets like Witch Doctor from the Hero Factory theme.Another way the 2009 sets were a bit of a letdown was that there were just too many characters. In some respects, this helped with world-building — it would have been somewhat awkward in a brand-new setting if there were only a handful of characters with defined personalities. But with eleven Glatorian, Mata Nui, Tuma, and nine Agori, there was no way all of them would be able to get enough of a spotlight in the story for people to become attached to them. Not with so little media that year, at any rate.Overall, though, I don't think the 2009 sets lacked quality to any substantially greater extent than any previous year. I have very fond memories of the 2009 sets. In general they were colorful, diverse, and packed with personality.

 

I loved Tarix tho :P


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