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Origin of Sanctum Prophecies


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#1 Offline Infrared

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 12:29 PM

Who wrote the prophecies in the Sanctum? Could they perhaps have been written by the Matoran when they were on Metru Nui and transferred to the Sanctum after they arrived, or were the prophecies vague enough that they could have been written by the Matoran on Mata Nui when the villages were being founded (and their memories were hazy, making them think they were ancient), and their meanings could be gleaned from events as they took place?


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#2 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 01:42 PM

Its possible a lot of it came through Nuju.  Either he remembered a significant amount (Possible, he's got a big brain and would've spent hours looking at these things as a matoran).  Alternatively, he may have rescued some tablets from Metru Nui or something and had them copied out.  However, the matoran did retain certain skills when they had their memories wiped, so its possible they worked these things out themselves, as they retained there knowledge to analyse the stars because it was built into them, much like Po-matoran retained their knowledge of sculpting.


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#3 Offline Click

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Posted Jun 17 2013 - 02:07 PM

Well, we had Nixie the Astrologer, so it isn't all that farfetched that the Mata Nui Matoran had their own Ko-Koro scholars as well that could find prophesies.


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#4 Offline Damaracx The Mad Scientist

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Posted Jun 18 2013 - 05:09 AM

Its possible a lot of it came through Nuju.  Either he remembered a significant amount (Possible, he's got a big brain and would've spent hours looking at these things as a matoran).  Alternatively, he may have rescued some tablets from Metru Nui or something and had them copied out.  However, the matoran did retain certain skills when they had their memories wiped, so its possible they worked these things out themselves, as they retained there knowledge to analyse the stars because it was built into them, much like Po-matoran retained their knowledge of sculpting.

[color=#ff0000;]I think Taipu1 explained this very well.[/color]

 

[color=#a9a9a9;]1.  Nuju could have remember some or rescued some tablets.  Quite possibly a combination of both.[/color]

 

[color=#ff0000;]2.  Whose not to say the writing prophesies is not matoran instinct?[/color]

 

[color=#a9a9a9;]3. A combination of both.[/color]


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#5 Offline Infrared

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Posted Jun 18 2013 - 11:48 AM

Alright, thanks for the responses guys. I'd say the question's been answered, but it has made me wonder something else: How would the Matoran have foretold what was written upon the Ta-Wahi telescope when the prophecies were based upon the Red Star and it wasn't visible from the MU? I would imagine that this foresight would be connected to the MU's internal sky and not the sky as it was visible from space. One possibility, I suppose, would be that the GBs determined what the SM sky would look up to a certain period of time (in 100,000 years, many of our constellations will not be recognizable because of the stars' movement through the galaxy), found patterns in the stars that would be complete with one additional star (the RS) as time went on and connected this database to the MU so that the closer Matoran were to SM the better they could tell prophecies and the better they knew what they were supposed to do. Of course, this would be a highly lengthy and difficult process and is probably not what happened, but I'd be interested to hear any other theories.


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#6 Offline darthme

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Posted Jun 18 2013 - 02:53 PM

Well Mata Nui wasn't supposed to crash land on Aqua Magna in the first place, so I don't think the GBs specifically programmed the telescope to recognize constellations as they would appear from that planet specifically.  But how long were the Matoran and Turaga on Mata Nui?  Wasn't it about 1,000 years before the Toa Mata arrived?  I think that is long enough for the astronomers of Mata Nui to analyze and prophesy based on constellations (with the Red Star) they observed through the telescope. 

 

And who knows, perhaps the MU's sky is projected as an exact replica of the sky outside Mata Nui's body wherever he may be in space, so its possible for the Red Star to be seen from inside the MU, although I don't know that there is any evidence to attest to this. 


Edited by darthme, Jun 18 2013 - 02:54 PM.

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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 20 2013 - 09:09 PM

Probably a combination of records brought up from the Knowledge tower studies of the star illusions' revelations of destinies, or recalled by Nuju, Nixie's reports from watching the prophetic motions of the Red Star, and the visions of Vakama and possibly others, and possibly a few things the Turaga simply knew needed to happen or were likely due to what they knew of the actual situation but couldn't openly tell the Matoran.

 

How would the Matoran have foretold what was written upon the Ta-Wahi telescope when the prophecies were based upon the Red Star and it wasn't visible from the MU?

 

The entire system of Red Star prophecies is still a total mystery, so nobody knows. I give a theory in my history retelling, but it's major spoilers so can't say it here. :P

 

One possibility, I suppose, would be that the GBs determined what the SM sky would look up to a certain period of time (in 100,000 years, many of our constellations will not be recognizable because of the stars' movement through the galaxy), found patterns in the stars that would be complete with one additional star (the RS) as time went on and connected this database to the MU so that the closer Matoran were to SM the better they could tell prophecies and the better they knew what they were supposed to do.

That's reasonable (and not mutually exclusive with my story's explanation).

 

Another might be that the Matoran just guesstimated based on input from Nuju and Vakama, so Nixie's branch of the science might have been a lot more sketchy (probably hence the name astrology).

 

Well Mata Nui wasn't supposed to crash land on Aqua Magna in the first place, so I don't think the GBs specifically programmed the telescope to recognize constellations as they would appear from that planet specifically.

I do think, though, that they probably based the constellations of the fake skies on the actual star arrangements as seen from their own world, Spherus Magna. And since it was known that the fragments would need a long time to stabilize before the Reforming was possible, they very well might have figured best to calculate and project the future arrangements of the stars. They might not have known at the time just how long a delay was needed, but Mata Nui was returning right at that time, so it's somewhat likely they could have guessed within a close range.

 

But this wouldn't be about programming a telescope, but programming the sky illusion. I have no idea off the top of my head if the GBs had anything to do with the telescope itself; I always assumed that was Matoran-made, but not sure. 

But how long were the Matoran and Turaga on Mata Nui?  Wasn't it about 1,000 years before the Toa Mata arrived?

Yes. It was either exactly 1000 or one year shy of it, depending on how you interpret BS01's timeline. I'm pretty sure Greg always called it 1000 on the spot.

 

I think that is long enough for the astronomers of Mata Nui to analyze and prophesy based on constellations (with the Red Star) they observed through the telescope.

Ah, but the very fact that the GBs programmed the Red Star to predict things based on the constellations of the time, not 100,000 years earlier pretty much proves they HAD to extrapolate the future star arrangements and base it on the constellations of their own perspective anyways. So, since they had to write a program for that anyways, might as well use it in some way for the internal fake sky. :shrugs: Or maybe since that sky had to tell internal prophecies it wasn't like that at all. We really don't know how it worked. It's even possible there was just one special star that would move around the SM-sky-illusion-arrangement exactly like the Red Star, and the Matoran just picked up where they left off with a real sky and a red-glowing satellite instead.

 

And who knows, perhaps the MU's sky is projected as an exact replica of the sky outside Mata Nui's body wherever he may be in space

Assuming he travels at hyper speeds, that wouldn't work because the Matoran would see the stars appearing to zoom by. I think a largely fixed sky with a few things that appear to be like tiny moons or planets that would move "weirdly" would probably make more sense in terms of plausible deniability anyways.

 

We don't know for sure that he does have a hyperdrive, but I assume so because even 100,000 years would not be much time if you were trying to study a lot of alien worlds at sublight speeds. At least not if he's going anywhere near fast enough to matter, in which case time would slow down for the MU people but not for the people back on SM. Since this didn't happen -- the two timelines matched up perfectly, or more or less so -- there must not have been significant relativistic effects. This means either Mata Nui flew at a snail's pace and visited only a handful of worlds, or he has hyperdrive, and given the incredible powers of protodermis the latter is a far safer assumption.

 

so its possible for the Red Star to be seen from inside the MU, although I don't know that there is any evidence to attest to this.

That could be a problem too, though, because it would often be attaching and detaching from the robot's back, and I personally doubt Mata Nui would want to have to worry about aligning his landing times with nighttime in the Matoran Universe, especially if it represents when he actually rested. Not sure on that latter point, but regardless point stands; the image would have to at least not be 100% accurate to the real RS's placement all the time. It's a neat idea but I don't think it works, especially because then the sky would be changing so fast even if he left out the hyperflight appearance (one night you'd see one arrangement, the next a totally different one, etc.).


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#8 Offline darthme

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Posted Jun 20 2013 - 09:24 PM

 

And who knows, perhaps the MU's sky is projected as an exact replica of the sky outside Mata Nui's body wherever he may be in space

Assuming he travels at hyper speeds, that wouldn't work because the Matoran would see the stars appearing to zoom by. I think a largely fixed sky with a few things that appear to be like tiny moons or planets that would move "weirdly" would probably make more sense in terms of plausible deniability anyways.

 

We don't know for sure that he does have a hyperdrive, but I assume so because even 100,000 years would not be much time if you were trying to study a lot of alien worlds at sublight speeds. At least not if he's going anywhere near fast enough to matter, in which case time would slow down for the MU people but not for the people back on SM. Since this didn't happen -- the two timelines matched up perfectly, or more or less so -- there must not have been significant relativistic effects. This means either Mata Nui flew at a snail's pace and visited only a handful of worlds, or he has hyperdrive, and given the incredible powers of protodermis the latter is a far safer assumption.

 

so its possible for the Red Star to be seen from inside the MU, although I don't know that there is any evidence to attest to this.

That could be a problem too, though, because it would often be attaching and detaching from the robot's back, and I personally doubt Mata Nui would want to have to worry about aligning his landing times with nighttime in the Matoran Universe, especially if it represents when he actually rested. Not sure on that latter point, but regardless point stands; the image would have to at least not be 100% accurate to the real RS's placement all the time. It's a neat idea but I don't think it works, especially because then the sky would be changing so fast even if he left out the hyperflight appearance (one night you'd see one arrangement, the next a totally different one, etc.).

 

Well I know that Toa Stars inside the MU were electrical flashes displayed by the Red Star.  I think it is safe to assume that this directive runs from the Red Star even when Mata Nui is moving and it is not deployed around him, so perhaps it also projected itself in a position in the 'sky', even if it wasn't always active in the real night sky. 


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#9 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 21 2013 - 12:48 PM

7. Did the prophecies around the telescope come from Vakamas visions?7) I doubt it 6)Mata Nui is the only dome that juts out of the sea. Could another porpous for it's existence be for Matoran totravel there to use the telescope? 6a)Who made the telescope? 6) The Great Beings made the telescope, but so far as we know, Matoran were never meant to journey there.

Interesting. Although I wonder what the thing is for - was Mata Nui supposed to use it? The Bohrok? Or another crazy failsafe?

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