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How much did they know?

Mata Nui Matoran Spheres

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#1 Offline Click

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 02:53 PM

So, after the Matoran were awakened from Makuta's spheres by the Metru, how much did they remember? Did they at least know their names, or was that where the "corrupted names" (no idea what else to call them) come in? Did they have any vague memories of anything? Or did Teridax's spheres cause a complete wipe sparing only basic motor functions?
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#2 Offline badabababa obesity

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 02:57 PM

I imagine they only knew what the Turaga told them. However, they probably had some muscle memory or something of their old jobs, as when they returned to Metru Nui things went back to a relative normal.


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#3 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 03:01 PM

I would assume the knew their names, at least phonetically. They obviously remembered word knowledge, grammar etc. etc.


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#4 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 06:03 PM

The only thing we know for sure is language. The rest, even their names, probably had to be re-learned (what the Turaga allowed them to know anyways).

 

Part of the reason I assume they had to re-learn their names is that some of them got them wrong, like Nuhrii --> Nuri.

 

Also, it's described as a mindwipe, and that to me means total. Language is not counted as a "memory", but being told your name should count. It's not like the Toa Mata who just forgot their past but could remember potentially; the memories were erased.

 

You can still make a case with names that it would count as "vocabulary" though.

 

Some other learned skills might have been retained in a similar category as language. However, many of them took on radically different jobs, so it's possible they were taken down only to natural talents, and learned totally different skills from scratch based on whatever was needed to survive and whatever also matched their basic talents.


Edited by bonesiii, Jun 23 2013 - 06:03 PM.

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#5 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 06:43 PM

I assume they knew basic knowledge (Name, language, the sky is blue, how to walk, etc) but they had no memory of any events or acquaintences.


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#6 Offline DuplexBeGreat

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 07:02 PM

Well, for them, wouldn't "the sky is blue" be a completely new idea?
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#7 Offline Tecnokua The Fedora Mudki

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 07:44 PM

Well didn't takua help jala when his mask was broken. But we don't know if that was act of kindness or remembering of his friend or something.


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#8 Offline Omega12

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 08:04 PM

As I recall Takua didn't speak to get Vakamas attention. He just sort of tugged or tapped on him.My guess would be it was kind of like amnesia. Is it possible that once the turaga told them the truth it was like "Oh yeah, I remember now."?
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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 08:57 PM

I assume they knew basic knowledge (Name, language, the sky is blue, how to walk, etc) but they had no memory of any events or acquaintences.

Well, for them, wouldn't "the sky is blue" be a completely new idea?

It was a delayed, gradual process that kept going while they were awake and free of the pods during/after the year of peace gotten by Vakama's deal with Teridax. So, they would be observing the blue sky during much of the end of that process (of course, it was a different sky from what they remembered, which probably confused them, but all that confusion was forgotten when the process ended). So that kind of thing probably was never really forgotten.

 

Incidentally, knowing how to walk is almost certainly inherent to Matoran. They're manufactured "ready to go". That probably also applies to language which might be part of why it wasn't erased. So, Matoran never need to learn how to walk, nor re-learn.

 

Well didn't takua help jala when his mask was broken. But we don't know if that was act of kindness or remembering of his friend or something.

Well, we don't know if Takua and Jaller were friends prior to the GC. Jaller apparently only came to respect Takua during the events of the MNOG a thousand years afterward. (At least I don't recall any sources mentioning anything like that in Metru Nui.) Probably that was just the movie people foreshadowing, since they'd just done a movie where that was a major feature.

 

In any case, Takua hadn't lost (all of) his memories yet at that point, so doesn't really matter.

 

As I recall Takua didn't speak to get Vakamas attention. He just sort of tugged or tapped on him.My guess would be it was kind of like amnesia.Is it possible that once the turaga told them the truth it was like "Oh yeah, I remember now."?

No. It was a total mindwipe. The "oh yeah" effect only worked for memory loss like the Toa Mata's. They heard the past from the Turaga just the same as if they were totally unconnected to it.


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#10 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 10:27 PM

Part of the reason I assume they had to re-learn their names is that some of them got them wrong, like Nuhrii --> Nuri.

According to BS01, Nuri, Tehuti, and Orkan's names changed because of Naming Day, and they changed them back to honor the past.

 

Do you think the Matoran retained their personalities?


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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 23 2013 - 11:50 PM

Right... forgot that bit about Naming Day. I wonder why they changed to those names.

 

Anywho, their "genetic" (equivalent) personalities would be retained. The learned and chosen parts of the personalities might have changed to some extent. Also the same personalities could seem different under the very different circumstances (for example, Takua was restless and a poor worker on Metru Nui, but on Mata Nui became an adventurer; the latter wouldn't really have worked before because Metru Nui wasn't an adventuring kind of place).


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#12 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted Jun 24 2013 - 08:07 AM

 

Well, we don't know if Takua and Jaller were friends prior to the GC. Jaller apparently only came to respect Takua during the events of the MNOG a thousand years afterward. (At least I don't recall any sources mentioning anything like that in Metru Nui.) Probably that was just the movie people foreshadowing, since they'd just done a movie where that was a major feature.

I'm pretty sure there was something in Time Trap referencing their friendship. Like Vakama goes wandering off, Jaller finds him and is says something along the lines of, "You're just like Takua! Always wandering off!"


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#13 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jun 24 2013 - 08:49 AM

 

 

Well, we don't know if Takua and Jaller were friends prior to the GC. Jaller apparently only came to respect Takua during the events of the MNOG a thousand years afterward. (At least I don't recall any sources mentioning anything like that in Metru Nui.) Probably that was just the movie people foreshadowing, since they'd just done a movie where that was a major feature.

I'm pretty sure there was something in Time Trap referencing their friendship. Like Vakama goes wandering off, Jaller finds him and is says something along the lines of, "You're just like Takua! Always wandering off!"

 

I thought Takua was just a well-known scatterbrain.


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#14 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Jun 24 2013 - 12:18 PM

I'm pretty sure they knew their names and their basic functions, such as the fact that they need a mask and that they are Matoran and such. They lost their memories rather than what's been ingrained into their minds.


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#15 Offline Radagast367

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Posted Jun 25 2013 - 01:55 AM

I reckon that they knew all the basic stuff, language, etc. etc. and the rest was sort of subconscious, like instinct, almost. Maybe they even got simillar jobs to before the mind wipe, because it was engrained in their minds as something they should do.


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#16 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 02:11 PM

As I see it, the mind-wipe was almost like a reset to "factory setting": the spheres were designed to "hack" the Matoran inside and revert them to the states in which they had been built. Since Matoran are artificial (and presumably built ready to operate, therefore with basic language/motor functions/talents), this had the effect of wiping their memories. The only hole I can see in this theory is that Matoran weren't originally designed to have a personality - but since new Matoran are mentioned as coming into being and implied to have personalities themselves, it's not too big of an issue.Actually, something just occurred to me. Is it not possible that the Great Beings incorporated a "factory setting" into each Matoran, as another failsafe in case a Matoran "glitched?" The Brotherhood could have discovered this "setting" during an experiment, allowing Teridax to later come along and exploit it. If this is the case, the spheres were most likely either built by the Brotherhood as part of Teridax's Plan to enact the "hard reset," or were a failsafe by the Great Beings to "reset" glitching Matoran.Thoughts?
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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 02:58 PM

The only hole I can see in this theory is that Matoran weren't originally designed to have a personality

As far as I know, that is not confirmed. Why wouldn't they? As I've often pointed out with my "society variety" theory (in real life or fiction), the more varied personalities exist in a society, the better it can handle a variety of challenges. Surely the Matoran would have come with something close enough to that to call it that. :)

 

I like the idea of a hackable factory reset. Mind if I use that term in my history retelling? I can credit you if you require it in a comment / review-topic-post-note. I've already written this part but I could edit.


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#18 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jun 28 2013 - 03:25 PM

The only hole I can see in this theory is that Matoran weren't originally designed to have a personality

As far as I know, that is not confirmed. Why wouldn't they? As I've often pointed out with my "society variety" theory (in real life or fiction), the more varied personalities exist in a society, the better it can handle a variety of challenges. Surely the Matoran would have come with something close enough to that to call it that. :)
True enough - I suppose lack of independent sentience =/= lack of personality. 

I like the idea of a hackable factory reset. Mind if I use that term in my history retelling? I can credit you if you require it in a comment / review-topic-post-note. I've already written this part but I could edit.

Yeah, sure! You can put credit on there if you feel like you need to, but I'm not going to require it.

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#19 Offline darkslizer

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Posted Jul 15 2013 - 05:14 PM

This is something that has irked me about many stories involving brain washing. I think that someone "completely wiping someone's memory" would take away their motor skills, speech, and also any memories including their name, job, and personality. But how could someone confidently design a device that more or less preserves all of those things, excluding maybe their job, and put it into action so quickly? At least, I assume Teridax didn't spend all of his time designing and building canisters for what seems, now, a trifle part in his Plan. I mean, when you could be possessing a giant robot that is also the Universe, why would you take much time designing Matoran canisters?
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#20 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 15 2013 - 05:39 PM

This is something that has irked me about many stories involving brain washing. I think that someone "completely wiping someone's memory" would take away their motor skills, speech, and also any memories including their name, job, and personality.

The answer to this is pretty simple; "all memories" here is meant to exclude language, motor skills, and obviously personality (which is presumably inherent and would never be "erased", other than learned personality). What you say is semantically possible, but only if you use a different definition of "all memories" than the canon definition. :)

 

As for name and job, we don't know if they actually remembered their names (as far as I recall); I've been assuming the Turaga told everyone what their names were. And they definitely forgot their jobs. Many took radically different jobs on Mata Nui. (It's possible the Turaga told them basically what they used to do and they chose not to... plus many jobs in the city simply weren't possible on the primitive island.)

 

But how could someone confidently design a device that more or less preserves all of those things, excluding maybe their job, and put it into action so quickly?

I don't get the vibe that it was done quickly. I suspect he spent a fair amount of time researching options, mixing new powers, etc. until he finally found one that he found a use for. And I don't think it's so much about preserving those things but simply the power he happened to find did not target them.

 

As I've mentioned before, at least in the human brain, this is sensible, because language and motor skills and the like are far more used than most other memories. The more a neural connection is used, the more resilient it is. Thus a knock on the head might produce amnesia in most things by knocking weak neural connections off, but the stronger language and motor skills pathways would survive. (A knock that would destroy these would likely also destroy pathways for vision to work, heartbeat regulation and the like so would be fatal.)

 

This power likely works on the same basic principle, assuming the Matoran have biological brains and assuming the memory loss is something like an energy-acid effect on weaker neural connections. :) 

At least, I assume Teridax didn't spend all of his time designing and building canisters for what seems, now, a trifle part in his Plan. I mean, when you could be possessing a giant robot that is also the Universe, why would you take much time designing Matoran canisters?

It has been cleared up by others in recent topics that Makuta did not think of possessing the giant robot until his original plan with the pods failed -- while he was trapped in the protocage. This is something the official story didn't do a great job of communicating; apparently it was only mentioned in one of the guide books (that I don't have), but it's canon. (And I've made it clearer in my retelling.)

 

Even so, putting them in the pods did at least keep them safe from the Great Cataclysm.


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 15 2013 - 05:43 PM.

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#21 Offline Master Inika

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Posted Jul 15 2013 - 09:45 PM

 

This is something that has irked me about many stories involving brain washing. I think that someone "completely wiping someone's memory" would take away their motor skills, speech, and also any memories including their name, job, and personality.

The answer to this is pretty simple; "all memories" here is meant to exclude language, motor skills, and obviously personality (which is presumably inherent and would never be "erased", other than learned personality). What you say is semantically possible, but only if you use a different definition of "all memories" than the canon definition. :)

 

As for name and job, we don't know if they actually remembered their names (as far as I recall); I've been assuming the Turaga told everyone what their names were. And they definitely forgot their jobs. Many took radically different jobs on Mata Nui. (It's possible the Turaga told them basically what they used to do and they chose not to... plus many jobs in the city simply weren't possible on the primitive island.)

You think the Turaga memorized roughly 1,000 names? Or do you think they took some kind of Metru Nui census with them?


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#22 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 15 2013 - 09:51 PM

Whenua is shown walking around the pods while loading the airships in WoS, carrying a tablet, presumably doing "inventory" to make sure they had them all (other than the six already taken, and one of those lost; Ahkmou). I see no reason he wouldn't bring these records along since he had them handy right there. And with there only being ~166 per Metru/Koro, and with 100,000 years (possibly, assuming the Turaga were that old as Matoran) to meet them, they probably knew most of their names anyways.

 

Plus, I theorize in my retelling that during the year of peace before the memory erasure took full effect, the Matoran themselves could have inscribed tablets to their future selves telling them some things they think they should know (as long as they didn't break the secrecy rule about Metru Nui and the like). Probably their names would be at the top of that list.


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#23 Offline Tahu's Courage

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Posted Jul 16 2013 - 10:04 PM

I remember reading the first BIONICLE book about the Toa Mata. All six Toa never really remembered their origins or who made them and why, so things didn't make sense at first. There's this part where Tahu does not understand what the point of everything is, and he is wondering what his name is. Somehow, a voice in his head answers his mental question, saying his name.

 

I guess something similar happened to the Matoran right after they were awaken on Mata Nui. In addition, the Turaga gave them a few answers, but always hesitated to tell them where they really came from.


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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 16 2013 - 10:27 PM

I remember reading the first BIONICLE book about the Toa Mata. All six Toa never really remembered their origins or who made them and why, so things didn't make sense at first. There's this part where Tahu does not understand what the point of everything is, and he is wondering what his name is. Somehow, a voice in his head answers his mental question, saying his name.

 

I guess something similar happened to the Matoran right after they were awaken on Mata Nui. In addition, the Turaga gave them a few answers, but always hesitated to tell them where they really came from.

But the Toa Mata's memory loss was more of a memory block, so that scene makes sense for Tahu. Not for the Matoran; theirs was a memory wipe; meaning whatever they forgot is just gone. Later Tahu actually did remember details of his past life, but this was impossible for the Matoran.


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