Elemental Versatility

[Toa Zaz]

Due to the decision to differentiate similar elements, instead of just having them under the umbrella of one, elemental powers in Bionicle aren't very versatile. For example, Toa of Ice can only control solid water, whereas Toa of Water can't. Also, Fire, Lighting, and Plasma are all different elements, Stone and Earth are different, Iron and Magnetism are different even though they're similar, etc. The reason this happened is probably because at the beginning Toa had more environmental themes than characterization based on their powers (Lewa, Toa of Air is green, etc). I probably sound like Aanchir here, but I think it would be better if Bionicle powers were more like bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender, where characters can be afforded greater and more interesting elemental control.

[bonesiii]

I dunno about better, Zaz. Different, and different can be good. But then, the more flexible elements have been done before, many times, possibly to the point of cliche, or nearly so. Maybe the unusual nature of Bionicle elements in that sense actually makes them better in the sense of more original? Airbender can be airbender, and Bionicle can be Bionicle -- they don't all have to be about the same, right?

 

Yeah, I agree about why it probably happened. For example, there was a Toa of Ice because a major environment is snow and ice versus a watery bay. Same with Earth being different from stone so they could have people living in caves plus people living amongst rock formations. Later on that emphasis kind of got lost by the wayside. The logic of the other elements makes sense -- gravity, etc. -- and they sort of grew on fans as elements due to the Kal and the Toa of Light. But the themes grew quite different for many of them. Plants is one exception, at least, but yeah.

 

 

Re: Krakua -- plus of course his heightened hearing due to his element already gives him an extra boost in terms of listening in.

Edited July 4, 2013 by bonesiii

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

Due to the decision to differentiate similar elements, instead of just having them under the umbrella of one, elemental powers in Bionicle aren't very versatile. For example, Toa of Ice can only control solid water, whereas Toa of Water can't.

 

Yes but I think solid/liquid water have such different properties that there are many different ways to use them individually without having to also use the other.

 

A Toa of Ice doesn't have sole domain over the ice, but they can also control temperature (to make it colder, not hotter, though). In MoL, Kopaka freezes a Rahkshi inside a lake that was previously unfrozen, so Toa of Ice can sort of work with liquid water. Besides, who says that they can't do things with ice similar to element bending in Avatar. I remember one episode of Avatar where an Earthbender kicks the ground and makes boulders appear, then kicks them towards their opponents. I see no reason why a Toa of Ice couldn't do the same with icicles.

 

And don't forget that most Toa work in teams anyway. A Toa of Ice in the same team as a Toa of Water would solve that problem immediately. The Toa of Water could summon water to be frozen of vice versa. Additionally, the two Toa could create a Snow, Hail, or Sleet storm in conjunction with a Toa of Air. I think some of the most versatile examples of elemental power usage come from teamwork between two or more elements.

Edited July 4, 2013 by darthme

[Mehul]

As much as I enjoyed Avatar, I think I like that bionicle takes a different take on the matter, which can be a bit confusing at times but it cements in my mind that bionicle is not in the same universe as us and we don't quite completely understand all its laws...

 

@Bonesiii thanks for changing the title and clearing up the whole plasma vs Plasma thing.

[Takanuva of Twilight]

Can Toa of Plasma superheat themselves? I always thought that, similar to Ta-Matoran/Toa, Su-Matoran/Toa had heat resistance, but to a higher degree than Ta-Matoran/Toa, thereby allowing them to superheat themselves and create a "shield", as in anything that touches them melts. I haven't read anywhere where either of those abilities are confirmed though, so this may not count as versatility of the element.

[bonesiii]

All Toa have a natural resistance to their element, so I would think that to some extent they must be resistant to heat. However:

 

1) Whether this is also true of the Su-Matoran is not known; many other traits have been suggested for them so that they're not too much like Ta-Matoran, and:

 

2) The Bohrok Kal of Plasma was able to destroy himself by melting into the magmatized ground with high-intensity Plasma, so probably they are not totally immune. Superheating themselves intentionally would not be wise, therefore. Also even Ta-Toa can be melted, as once almost happened with (I think it was...?) Vakama. (Or Lhikan???)

[Geardirector]

The one thing that seems to have been ignored so far on the topic of plasma is that it's the primary component in lightsabers.

[fishers64]

@bones: That was Vakama. Bionicle Adventures #7: Web of the Visorak, right at the beginning. :)I guess I can say that I have a fanfic in the proofreading stage which deals with this sort of thing. I theorize in there that Plasma toa can make sheilds out of it, which can happen without heating themselves up - just hold the plasma a couple inches away from their armor. Also, pretty sure that Su-Toa can't control heat directly anyway. That's Fire's domain. I also say that Su-Matoran and Toa have mechanical devices that use Plasma for fuel. (But I didn't put any lightsabers in there. I have something a whole lot better than that. )

The one thing that seems to have been ignored so far on the topic of plasma is that it's the primary component in lightsabers.

I sense a Bionicle-Star Wars crossover incoming. Edited July 5, 2013 by fishers64

[Meta-Mind]

Eh, I'm just gonna browse S&T a b - hey, replies.

Due to the decision to differentiate similar elements, instead of just having them under the umbrella of one, elemental powers in Bionicle aren't very versatile.

I agree with your main point - that Bionicle differentiated similar elements - but not with your conclusion. I believe that Avatar and similar series actually cheapen elemental-themed powers by giving them so much flexibility and power over "similar powers." Let's take it example by example.

For example, Toa of Ice can only control solid water, whereas Toa of Water can't.

Yes, but isn't that same differentiation made in all kinds of media? The main difference is not solid vs. liquid water, but cold environments vs. aquatic ones - see also bonesiii's "environment theming" above. Toa of Ice control cold, as well as its most commonly-seen product - snow or ice. Toa of Water, on the other hand, control water itself - as in, the substance. Two different powers, two different uses. Plus, I don't think I ever saw Katara forming water from stored-up energy - or, for that matter, just draining all the heat from an area to freeze everything solid. Bionicle characters have their own tricks, it seems.

Also, Fire, Lighting, and Plasma are all different elements,

Uh... Fire and Plasma I can see, but Lightning? "Lightning" is static-electrical charges, and has nothing to do with superheated matter/heat/combustion. If anything, I've always seen the Avatar pairing of "Fire users can control lightning" as the more questionable one here. Again, Fire = heat + fuel + combustion, and Lightning = manipulating electrical charges. Not to mention that Fire and Plasma are still plenty flexible, even though they're quite similar at a first glance.(As a side note here, having Toa of Plasma seperate from Ta-Toa makes a lot of sense from a GB perspective - Toa who can heat things up would be useful inside the GSR, but if the robot broke down and started leaking air, then fire wouldn't be very effective. A Plasma Toa could easily seal the crack by using his element [which, unlike Fire, doesn't require combustion and so functions equally well in space or underwater]. Given how sturdily it's built, however, the GSR wouldn't need a bunch of potential welders running around, in case one glitched and started melting everything to slag - so it makes sense to keep the common "heaters" separate from the potential "welders.")

Stone and Earth are different,

Simply put, yes. The only real explanation for this is that someone high up (maybe Greg or someone else on the story team, maybe marketing, maybe executives - no real use to guessing at this point) wanted six environments, so one was picked as a cave network. As a result, Earth-users became tunnelers, miners, and manipulators of loose dirt, and Stone-users became carvers and manipulators of solid rock. The distinction may seem arbitrary, but from some of the crazy stuff we've seen Pohatu and Onua do (not to mention that they have potentially the most-vaguely-defined mask powers out of all of the Nuva), it works just fine for the series.

Iron and Magnetism are different even though they're similar,

Iron and Magnetism? Have to admit, at first I thought I'd see Lightning with Magnetism here. Iron and Magnetism... well, they have similar applications, but are very different powers at core. Magnetism is about the manipulation and creation of electromagnetic fields, which has the side effect of being able to drag metal objects around. Iron, on the other hand, is direct manipulation of the metal itself. As a result, they function very differently day-to-day even though they might look similar in combat, much like Earth and Stone - your Toa of Iron might be blacksmiths, able to shape the metal even when it gets super-hot (which, fun fact, Magnetism users would have a hard time of if protometal is like real-life metal in terms of magnetism), while your Toa of Magnetism might operate heavy machinery.

The reason this happened is probably because at the beginning Toa had more environmental themes than characterization based on their powers (Lewa, Toa of Air is green, etc).

True enough, though some you mentioned (like Fire and Lightning) probably wouldn't have been linked in Bionicle, environment or no. I see just as much logic behind putting Water or Air with Lightning, in fact.

I probably sound like Aanchir here, but I think it would be better if Bionicle powers were more like bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender, where characters can be afforded greater and more interesting elemental control.

But part of the point of these limited elements is that characters can't control more than one element. Water users can't suddenly pick up Ice Control as a backup power, Fire users can't suddenly direct lightning bolts, etc. The versitality - and fun - comes from seeing how these elements can be applied within their pre-established bounds for maximum effect. Though it's a pretty common technique to my knowledge, a good example of this is Tahu's "superheat the armor" trick, seen in great effect on Nektann. Rather than suddenly develop a new power - lightning control - and zap Nektann (which can have its own appeal as far as "cool factor" goes, but doesn't fit well with Bionicle's "one hero, one powerset" mentality), Tahu applied his current power in a creative way, and got the desired result just as effectively....And I've gone and written five paragraphs again. Ah, well. Any offense to fans of Avatar that may have come up was completely accidental - I love what I've seen of the series, and hope to get around to seeing a lot more of it when I can.And on a totally unrelated, much less serious note:

The one thing that seems to have been ignored so far on the topic of plasma is that it's the primary component in lightsabers.

Yes. Edited July 5, 2013 by Meta-Mind

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

Also, Fire, Lighting, and Plasma are all different elements,

Uh... Fire and Plasma I can see, but Lightning? "Lightning" is static-electrical charges, and has nothing to do with superheated matter/heat/combustion. If anything, I've always seen the Avatar pairing of "Fire users can control lightning" as the more questionable one here. Again, Fire = heat + fuel + combustion, and Lightning = manipulating electrical charges. Not to mention that Fire and Plasma are still plenty flexible, even though they're quite similar at a first glance.

I probably sound like Aanchir here, but I think it would be better if Bionicle powers were more like bending in Avatar: The Last Airbender, where characters can be afforded greater and more interesting elemental control.

But part of the point of these limited elements is that characters can't control more than one element. Water users can't suddenly pick up Ice Control as a backup power, Fire users can't suddenly direct lightning bolts, etc. The versitality - and fun - comes from seeing how these elements can be applied within their pre-established bounds for maximum effect. Though it's a pretty common technique to my knowledge, a good example of this is Tahu's "superheat the armor" trick, seen in great effect on Nektann.

 

 

I think the reasoning with fire/lightning in Avatar was that the most skilled firebenders could control heat so finely that they could concentrate it from being broad flames to a singular, lightning-like bolt of energy. (because lightning can be extremely hot)

 

I think that the 'heat the armor' trick could be done by a Toa of Sonics of Magnetism, too. A Toa of Sonics could send out a frequency causing the armor to vibrate and create friction, and a Toa of Magnetism might be able to acheive the same effect if they could make the individual pieces of armor rub against each other fast enough.

[man774]

a toa of earth could get the dirt in the air (dust) to congregate in someone's trachea and suffocate them. And a toa of water could go surfing on land.

[Art Vandelay]

a toa of earth could get the dirt in the air (dust) to congregate in someone's trachea and suffocate them. And a toa of water could go surfing on land.

That is an interesting method of murder. I wouldn't have thought have that before. It would be a very effective tactic indeed.

[man774]

A toa of sound could decrease the vibrating of an indivusual's atoms to the point where they would become a post-einstien condensate. And that, imho, would be rather humorous interesting.

[Art Vandelay]

A toa of sound could decrease the vibrating of an indivusual's atoms to the point where they would become a post-einstien condensate. And that, imho, would be rather humorous interesting.

Ouch. lol

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

A toa of sound could decrease the vibrating of an indivusual's atoms to the point where they would become a post-einstien condensate. And that, imho, would be rather humorous interesting

 

That seems almost too powerful. I don't know that a even a Toa would have the mental capacity to do so, at least not in the heat of battle against several opponents.

[Art Vandelay]

 

A toa of sound could decrease the vibrating of an indivusual's atoms to the point where they would become a post-einstien condensate. And that, imho, would be rather humorous interesting

 

That seems almost too powerful. I don't know that a even a Toa would have the mental capacity to do so, at least not in the heat of battle against several opponents.

 

True, it would have to an ambush on an unmoving target if it could be done at all.

[man774]

 

 

A toa of sound could decrease the vibrating of an indivusual's atoms to the point where they would become a post-einstien condensate. And that, imho, would be rather humorous interesting

 

That seems almost too powerful. I don't know that a even a Toa would have the mental capacity to do so, at least not in the heat of battle against several opponents.

 

True, it would have to an ambush on an unmoving target if it could be done at all.

 

I agree with that, but the attacker would first have to know what a post-Eisenstein condensate is, which I'm pleasentley surprised this many people do.

[Arzaki]

 

 

 

A toa of sound could decrease the vibrating of an indivusual's atoms to the point where they would become a post-einstien condensate. And that, imho, would be rather humorous interesting

 

That seems almost too powerful. I don't know that a even a Toa would have the mental capacity to do so, at least not in the heat of battle against several opponents.

 

True, it would have to an ambush on an unmoving target if it could be done at all.

 

I agree with that, but the attacker would first have to know what a post-Eisenstein condensate is, which I'm pleasentley surprised this many people do.

 

I have no idea what it is, lol.

E=MC² stuff?

[bonesiii]

I think he means a Bose-Einstein condensate:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose%E2%80%93Einstein_condensate

 

In short -- quantum mechanics stuff (not so much E=MC^2 per se). In practical terms, it's cooling something very close to absolute zero.

 

They wouldn't necessarily have to know what it is, but I don't see Toa of Sonics as the one to have any hope for that; more likely Ice. But I highly doubt any element could do it.

[Spicy Salmon Samurai]

But theoretically, couldn't a Toa of Sonics make the atoms vibrate so slowly that they would lose heat. Or something.I think for this to work properly you would need a Toa of Wavelengths.

Edited July 11, 2013 by darthme

[man774]

ya, bose makes more senese than post. anyways, it's probably not possible, but it's a cool idea, imho

[bonesiii]

But theoretically, couldn't a Toa of Sonics make the atoms vibrate so slowly that they would lose heat. Or something.I think for this to work properly you would need a Toa of Wavelengths.

To some extent maybe, but to go anywhere near absolute zero? Considering this is just an indirect effect, caused by absorption, for them? Versus Ice Toa who actually control cold-energy directly? I say, nowhere near enough to make a BEC.

 

Possibly not even enough to freeze water at room temperature previously. But who knows.

[man774]

A toa of iron could create for himself a suit of armor and then absorb it when he isn't in battle

[25K Now!]

A toa of iron could create for himself a suit of armor and then absorb it when he isn't in battle

Seeing that Toa already wear armour ... that seems a bit redundant.

 

You know, I've always wondered if Toa of Stone could control sand and the crystals within rocks ... is that part of their domain?

[bonesiii]

 

A toa of iron could create for himself a suit of armor and then absorb it when he isn't in battle

Seeing that Toa already wear armour ... that seems a bit redundant.

 

You know, I've always wondered if Toa of Stone could control sand and the crystals within rocks ... is that part of their domain?

Having extra armor isn't redundant if it stops a weapon that otherwise would have penetrated it, etc.

 

Greg confirmed that sand is the dividing line of particle size between Earth and Stone and neither type of Toa controls it. As an element it is only controlled on Spherus/Bara Magna (especially the Element Lord of Sand), though some Matoran Universe beings do control it in a non-elemental sense, especially characters that transmute into it like that one Dark Hunter and that type of elite Vahki (I kinda forget the names...).

 

I'm actually a little foggy on whether he included large-scale crystals (like lightstones) within Stone or not.

 

If I had to guess I'd say yes, due to the particle-size rule (and the names of lightstones would obviously imply it). And crystals within a small enough size (most rock contains microcrystals) are definitely in their domain, in the sense that they could choose between making different types of rock, and some have more microcrystallization than others (volcanic versus granular for example; that is, igneous vs. sedimentary).

[25K Now!]

So that would mean a Toa of Stone could possibly create a heatstone as well, yes?

[fishers64]

So that would mean a Toa of Stone could possibly create a heatstone as well, yes?

 

I think that would be possible.

Edited July 15, 2013 by fishers64

[25K Now!]

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

[bonesiii]

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

Heatstones have to be charged up with a heat source (on Mata Nui this is primarily what lava farmers did), so it would probably be like "batteries not included" -- meaning in the uncharged state. So they'd probably still be cold.

[Arzaki]

 

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

Heatstones have to be charged up with a heat source (on Mata Nui this is primarily what lava farmers did), so it would probably be like "batteries not included" -- meaning in the uncharged state. So they'd probably still be cold.

 

Could someone heat up a heatstone with a lightstone or another heatstone?

[fishers64]

 

 

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

Heatstones have to be charged up with a heat source (on Mata Nui this is primarily what lava farmers did), so it would probably be like "batteries not included" -- meaning in the uncharged state. So they'd probably still be cold.

 

Could someone heat up a heatstone with a lightstone or another heatstone?

 

Lightstone, no. A heatstone might, but I imagine that it would be like sun heating up a rock on a hot day as opposed to some stone that has the protodermic power of heat.

 

Transferring the power of heat from one stone to another might be possible, but why would anyone do that?

[Arzaki]

 

 

 

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

Heatstones have to be charged up with a heat source (on Mata Nui this is primarily what lava farmers did), so it would probably be like "batteries not included" -- meaning in the uncharged state. So they'd probably still be cold.

 

Could someone heat up a heatstone with a lightstone or another heatstone?

 

Lightstone, no. A heatstone might, but I imagine that it would be like sun heating up a rock on a hot day as opposed to some stone that has the protodermic power of heat.

 

Transferring the power of heat from one stone to another might be possible, but why would anyone do that?

 

Well, if you're with a friend in Ko-Koro or something with two heatstones, but only one works, you could distribute the heat. Assuming that heat is removed from one and 'placed' into the other, instead of heat generating more heat without using itself in the process.

[fishers64]

 

 

 

 

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

Heatstones have to be charged up with a heat source (on Mata Nui this is primarily what lava farmers did), so it would probably be like "batteries not included" -- meaning in the uncharged state. So they'd probably still be cold.

 

Could someone heat up a heatstone with a lightstone or another heatstone?

 

Lightstone, no. A heatstone might, but I imagine that it would be like sun heating up a rock on a hot day as opposed to some stone that has the protodermic power of heat.

 

Transferring the power of heat from one stone to another might be possible, but why would anyone do that?

 

Well, if you're with a friend in Ko-Koro or something with two heatstones, but only one works, you could distribute the heat. Assuming that heat is removed from one and 'placed' into the other, instead of heat generating more heat without using itself in the process.

 

Possible. So you're saying that if I have 1 charged heat stone and 1 dead heat stone, I could take the charge from one to the other and make two heatstones with 1/2 power?

 

I don't know, but I think some heat might be lost in the transfer...

[Arzaki]

 

 

 

 

 

Huh, that'd be rather useful if one is in a cold place, but lacking the assistance of a Fire Toa.

Heatstones have to be charged up with a heat source (on Mata Nui this is primarily what lava farmers did), so it would probably be like "batteries not included" -- meaning in the uncharged state. So they'd probably still be cold.

 

Could someone heat up a heatstone with a lightstone or another heatstone?

 

Lightstone, no. A heatstone might, but I imagine that it would be like sun heating up a rock on a hot day as opposed to some stone that has the protodermic power of heat.

 

Transferring the power of heat from one stone to another might be possible, but why would anyone do that?

 

Well, if you're with a friend in Ko-Koro or something with two heatstones, but only one works, you could distribute the heat. Assuming that heat is removed from one and 'placed' into the other, instead of heat generating more heat without using itself in the process.

 

Possible. So you're saying that if I have 1 charged heat stone and 1 dead heat stone, I could take the charge from one to the other and make two heatstones with 1/2 power?

 

I don't know, but I think some heat might be lost in the transfer...

 

That's pretty much what I was saying. It would still probably be about the same amount of heat.

[bonesiii]

Simple geometry should dictate that most of the heat would be lost to the air. However, heatstones are put in little canisters, with only maybe 1/4 showing at the time, so much of the heat probably reflected back through the crystal by the interior of the canister and out the open cap, kind of like a flashlight beam of heat, so I do agree it should be possible to charge up another heatstone this way. Probably more like 1/3 the power would be left in each though, not 1/2, due to much of the heat escaping out the sides of the exposed part.

 

And anywho, this is now off-topic.

[man774]

A toa of light could charge your lighstones. problem solved.

[25K Now!]

Depending on the amount of plants that exist within the MU ...

 

Is the Toa of the Green limited to MU plants, because if not, is it possible for them to create a Thornax tree?

[man774]

If a toa of ice was locked in a room, he could freeze the lock and smash it, thus freeing him.

[fishers64]

Depending on the amount of plants that exist within the MU ...

 

Is the Toa of the Green limited to MU plants, because if not, is it possible for them to create a Thornax tree?

 

Yes, Toa of Whatever can create real-world Whatever. Toa of Water can manipulate and create real-world water. It just takes additional skill.

[Tahu's Courage]

When I think of versatility, in terms of combat, I think the most versatile is air, followed by water, fire, and ice. Water, fire, and ice aren't in any specific order. I think al three of them are equally versatile.

 

Since air is everywhere, unless you're in space, you have a very reliable element. If a Toa of air had enough experience, he could cause the wind to move so fast with such force that it could tear down large trees. Wind moves things, and a Toa of air could use the wind to carry massive amounts of sand, causing it to move at an extremely fast velocity. The sand can be used to blind your foe, and if the Toa generates enough force, he could trigger a sandstorm. Using air in combat means that you can use it for lots of purposes. Air pressure can also be used as a weapon.

 

Water, on the other hand, would have the strongest offensive power. Much of the planet that the Matoran live in is filled with water, and floods and tsunamis have always been known as very destructive forces of nature in the real world. A skilled Toa of water could trigger massive waves, and simply just overpower multiple foes. It can also be used to trap an enemy in a floating bottle of water, thus drowning them to death. But because Toa lose their energy after some time, a Toa of water would have a very hard time triggering a massive wave, even if she was capable.

 

Fire may not be everywhere, but it can be just a frightening, terrifying element. Toa of fire don't just control fire, they have influence over heat. Scientifically speaking, heat is the sum of all energy in a substance, so atoms, molecules, and other particles are influenced by heat. Heat becomes kinetic if it is used to speed up the movement of small pieces of matter, and can also change the state of matter. Toa of fire, then, would have quite a bit of energy to spare for combat, since they represent an element influenced by heat.

 

The smallest flame can cause a devastating fire, and fire becomes much more powerful when there's lots of fuel to burn. When flammable liquids such as gasoline get mixed up with fire, the fire becomes much deadlier and cannot be put out by water. A Toa of fire could use certain flammable liquids to his advantage, such as oil. A Toa of fire wouldn't have to waste his elemental energy just to trigger a devastating fire, either, as long as there are highly flammable substances. In the real world, during the Middle Ages, the Byzantines had deadly weapons called fire ships, which used flammable liquids to generate deadly flames. There were even fire grenades back in those days, which also used deadly flammable liquids. Unlike normal fires, these fires spread easily, and it doesn't take long before the intended target is caught in deadly flames. Water cannot put out these kinds of fires.

 

Toa of ice would have the most powerful defensive abilities, which they can also use for offense. Like Toa of fire, Toa of ice don't just control ice. Both Toa influence on thing: temperature. Toa of ice can do the complete opposite effect of heat, so they can take away energy. Although these Toa cannot control water, they can also influence it, since ice is just another form of H2O. If there's water, Toa of Ice can freeze it, so they have more "ammunition" to fight with. With enough power, they can freeze a foe, and smash them to bits when they're frozen. They could also hurl sharp ice crystals at their enemies, piercing through any armor they might be wearing. As a defensive element, a massive, solid block of ice can make an excellent piece of cover.