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Polar ice caps

Spherus magna Ice caps Binary star

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#1 Offline northmarch

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 05:25 AM

Granted, we really haven't seen that much of spherus magna. The convention is that the northern and southernmost point on a planet are the coldest locations on a planet, as they have less direct exposure to the sun and Bones will probably explain it a lot better latter on.To the point: we have had no indication that spherus magna has frozen polar caps. Why? Do they even exist? Could their apparent absence have something to do with fact that the planet is part of a binary star system, the planets sheer (estimated) size, or that two giant chunks were ripped away for 100,000 years where the poles would have been, but even then.So did they exist. If not, why?
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#2 Offline TPN

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 06:49 AM

The only place on Spherus Magna that I can remember that is like a polar ice cap is the Northern Frost. It's the area way up north that the Element Lord of Ice ruled over before/during the Core War (it was part of Bota Magna post Shattering). As far as I know there has been no mention of a "southern frost", but Spherus Magna is so vast and so under-explored in the storyline that there might well be one. :kakamanu: :t: :m_p: :n: :kakamanu:
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#3 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 01:48 PM

Yeah, the Northern Frost is taken to be an ice cap. It's the only one on land. If there is a southern one it would be in the middle of the Great Sea, and possibly nobody ever happened to stumble upon it.

 

However, no image of SM shows major ice caps so if the NF is meant to be one, it must be tiny.

 

But the system is not binary -- there's only one star. Why did you say that? You may be thinking of the two sun-holes in the Metru Nui dome, but those were Mata Nui's eyes.

 

The planet may be close to the sun, compared to Earth, so warmer on average. Depictions of Solis Magna in the Spherus Magna and Bota Magna skies have shown it quite large.


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 02 2013 - 01:50 PM.

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#4 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 05:25 PM

But the system is not binary -- there's only one star. Why did you say that? You may be thinking of the two sun-holes in the Metru Nui dome, but those were Mata Nui's eyes.

Actually...

The Solis Magna system is a solar system located within the Galactic Universe. It consists of a binary star, Solis Magna, and is known to have at least one habitable planet, Spherus Magna.

Source is BS01.Not sure if it ever came up in the actual story, though. Greg must have confirmed it back in '09 or '10 - he does seem to enjoy having two suns everywhere, so it's possible.Though I guess that means the one sun we saw everywhere on Mata Nui is now "artistic license." Either that, or the two stars were far away enough from Aqua Magna to look like just one - even though the sun looked pretty close most of the time. Hmm...The Northern Frost does appear to resemble the start of a polar ice cap, but since the other ice cap would have been in the middle of Aqua Magna, I doubt anyone would have put much emphasis on it.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Jul 02 2013 - 05:31 PM.

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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 05:38 PM

That's almost certainly an erroneous edit that slipped by the staff. I'd think I would have heard about it if Greg had made such a major retcon. And no canon media ever portrays it that way and I remember many quotes where he confirms there's just one sun in the surface sky. Unless someone can show me a Greg quote changing it.

 

It doesn't even sound grammatically correct -- "binary star" is short for "binary star system" basically; to go on and name only one of the two stars implies it's a typo or error, since if it was binary it should name both the primary and secondary stars or at least call Solis the primary. Also, binary star systems tend to make life impossible because the temperatures on the planets would shift radically from normal to too hot, unless a planet orbited both stars and they were very close together in a twinned dual orbit around each other (in which case we would clearly see two suns).

 

Only way out of that I can think of is if the secondary is orbitally locked to always be on the other side of the primary, Solis Magna, so is never seen by the inhabitants of Spherus Magna (it would have to be small, then). But that seems unlikely.


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 02 2013 - 05:45 PM.

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#6 Offline northmarch

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 05:48 PM

But the system is not binary -- there's only one star. Why did you say that? You may be thinking of the two sun-holes in the Metru Nui dome, but those were Mata Nui's eyes.

Actually...

The Solis Magna system is a solar system located within the Galactic Universe. It consists of a binary star, Solis Magna, and is known to have at least one habitable planet, Spherus Magna.

Source is BS01.Not sure if it ever came up in the actual story, though.
The only place I can recall seeing it in story is here http://biosector01.c...Promo_AnimationJust at the start of the clip.The northern forest and somewhere in aqua magna would be the logical locations but there still not visible on any image of the whole planet or it's fragments. I suppose the enhanesd greenhouse effect could have at least shrunk the northern cap whe bota magna was formed (faber concept art)

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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 02 2013 - 06:06 PM

The only place I can recall seeing it in story is herehttp://biosector01.c...Promo_AnimationJust at the start of the clip.

That's non-canon and from 2001. That idea was clearly repurposed for Metru Nui's sky for 2004. :) Otherwise Greg would have been talking about multiple suns in the real sky all that time rather than just one.

 

Admittedly it would be possible to put it into the canon later but why? It wouldn't make sense to contradict all portrayals that made it to the published canon just for a game that was never published.

 

 

I've gone through fishers' 2010+ Greg quotes archive looking for binary (no results), sun (no results), and solis (same), as well as star (all refer to the Red Star). Haven't checked the older ones yet. (Also, any other search terms I should be using instead?)

 

 

Edit: Checking the 2008+ Greg Dialogue file, starting at the end and working backward, binary gives no results. Sun gives this (not from Greg): 

 

Someone else: On the two suns thing, it is astrologically possible for a moon to reflect enough sunlight that it could be considered a second sun. Maybe Aqua magna.

Sounds promising, but no context in the quote above it. Searching on...Here's another hit: 

 

Original questioner: Didn’t Bara Magna have two suns? If so, which is the other one called?Greg: Where did we say it had two suns?OQ: #4 was just to confirm a rumor I heard.Someone else: You’re thinking of Metru Nui, which had two suns (Mata Nui’s eyes).OQ: In TLR two suns were rising as mata nui left vulcanus

Well, that would certainly explain the rumor. I don't recall this scene and I don't actually own TLR. Can anyone confirm this? This may be what the other quote meant -- not that anybody called something a sun but that the movie showed two shiny things and it was taken to be a sun (but might be one of the two large moons; Bota or Aqua Magna).

 

[Another Edit: Found it in a promo video clip online:

 

Posted Image

 

It's very faint (to the lower left of the main sun), and I'm not sure that's not a reflection off a cloud or something. If this is the only such scene that made it to publishing I wouldn't put much canon weight on it.]

 

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

 

What is the name of the sun in the Spherus Magna system? /nGreg: I believe the name I approved was Solis Magna

Note he doesn't disagree with the assumption that it's just one sun.Sounds to me like the TLR people might possible have shown two suns but it would still be non-canon. The moviemakers themselves might have gotten confused from the older movies. 

 

The Toa Mertu know when they found Mata Nui that was outside of the MU?Greg: Yes, they could tell by the sky and the sunlight.

 

Does Bara Magna orbit a star?Greg: Yes

This might be relevant, but possibly not since it doesn't say "the" suns: 

 

Can you confirm that the fortress of the VotM is where the Ignika’s "forges that burn hotter than suns" were located? I believe you already claimed that the caverns of ice where it was cooled were located elsewhere on Spherus Magna. Maybe in the Northern Frost?Greg: Sure, I can confirm that

And given that this comes before the quote where he wasn't aware of an idea of there being two suns in the real sky, I doubt he would have written about two suns in a story prior to this... It probably just means the many stars out there that have life-supporting worlds orbiting them that Mata Nui would visit. 

 

Why is Teriax bothering to destroy Mata Nui. I’m pretty sure you once said that he let mata nui go out of the MU without destroying him to let him live knowing he was beaten.Greg: Right, but he also expected that Mata Nui would die fairly quickly, either because the mask would go into a sun or in some other way get destroyed. Once he realizes weeks have gone by and the mask is still active, he figures he may have a problem with a still surviving Mata Nui.

This one seems to open the possibility for more than one sun to have been in range, but this is not necessarily proof of a binary system, as the "alien stars" might be closer than the closest star in real life is to our sun (about four light-years which is fairly unusually far compared to other star arrangements in our galaxy, if memory serves, especially toward the galactic core). 

 

Will it be revealed what lights the Bara Magna system? (i.e. is there a sun somewhere?)Greg: Of course there is.

 

1. The something I just noticed, but I remember you saying that in TLR that BM will be shown to have more than 1 suns. I’m just wondering how could BM and the EOP be in the same solar system if EOP only has 1?Greg: How many have we shown the EOP to have?

Urg, he just doesn't seem to want to confirm it lol...Alright, this one helps: 

 

How many suns are in Bara Magna’s sky?[/b] Some of the story so far makes it sound like there’s more than one, but I haven’t got confirmation.Greg: I believe I was told more than one would be shown in the movie, but not having seen the movie, I don’t know which direction they went with it.

So, he's saying this is something the movie people are doing that he has no input on and was unaware which was right at that time (therefore no need to go further back in time, methinks). So it comes down to whether TLR meant to show two suns and whether that is canon or not. I'm not seeing any confirmation of it, so I still doubt it.

 

Note also that TLR is the one that shows the "Endless Ocean" planet as a lumpy potato moon akin to Mars' moons, clearly incorrect (and Bota Magna is also shown lumpy, but water especially could not do that). So it doesn't exactly have a great track record of astronomical accuracy. 


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 02 2013 - 07:17 PM.

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#8 Offline Mehul

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Posted Jul 03 2013 - 07:09 AM

In addition to all the evidence provided above that the edit is erroneous I'd like to add that even if a star is part of a binary system the twin star can be lightyears away, our own sun is theorised to be part of a binary system. In fact most stars are part of binary systems.

 

So the point is even if there was a canon reference to a binary system in the earlier years it can be justified.

 

As for on topic the presence or absence of ice caps could be due to several reasons. Two of the top of my head are:

 

1. If there are techtonic (spelling? :P) instabilities, perhaps caused by the shattering near the poles the ice may not form.

 

2. The great beings could have simply removed them as part of their experiments, or as a side effect (think extremly advance stage of global warming).


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#9 Offline Omega12

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Posted Jul 03 2013 - 09:46 AM

What if there is currently no ice cap, but there once was.Bota magna's ice cap could have melted long ago. Or it could have gone away when the mask made the planet bloom.
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#10 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Jul 03 2013 - 12:50 PM

Yeah, what if the Great Sea is the melted southern ice cap?


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#11 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jul 03 2013 - 01:28 PM

Duh da Boink da boink da boink, duh-duh-duh boink boink.

 

7. Did spherus Magna have polar ice caps?

7) Yes

 

Anyway, this was when SM was still separated into three pieces, so that's probably what that referred to. There's still room for speculation and stuff about whether they still exist, but when Mata Nui restored SM he probably restored it to the original condition pre-Shattering, which would include the ice caps.


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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 03 2013 - 05:11 PM

Re the suns thing, here's a collection of more images showing the sun. Or suns. Only one image (also from TLR) at the end could be two suns (and even that one is still ambiguous, though maybe the actual scene would be clearer?) It really looks like it's just TLR.

 

Note that many of these don't clearly rule out a close secondary that just happens to be out of the frame, but it's still odd that they wouldn't all do what SW did with Tatooine and clearly show two off the bat (and then why all those years of constant affirmation that it was only Metru Nui's sky that had two?).

 

http://biosector01.c..._Bara_Magna.png

 

This is the one, BTW, that I have often talked about before in regards to ice caps -- it seems to portray the sun as seeming unusually large in the sky compared to ours, which may mean the planet orbits a bit closer, so the caps would be small. On the other hand, since the giant robot is descending, the comparison isn't that rigid, as seen in the next:

 

http://biosector01.c..._Bara_Magna.jpg

 

Here it still seems a bit larger than ours but not by much. That sounds about right for retaining some ice but not a huge amount.

 

And again, note this is near the center of the frame, yet no obvious TLR-style second sun anywhere in sight. Admittedly it could be behind Terry, but I doubt it.

 

http://biosector01.c..._Bara_Magna.jpg

 

This is a much wider angle, and the "behind Terry" explanation is even less plausible here. No second sun.

 

Here's a group of less clear ones:

 

http://biosector01.c...ncept_Art_5.jpg

http://biosector01.c...E_2001-2010.jpg

http://biosector01.c..._and_Skakdi.jpg

http://biosector01.c...g_Into_Sand.png

http://biosector01.c...oa_Mata_Nui.PNG

 

The last one also shows the sun seeming very large.

 

Here's the clearest of them all I would say absolutely rules out the TLR portrayal at least in the comic version of the universe:

 

http://biosector01.c..._Creation_1.jpg

 

And here's that other TLR pic:

 

http://biosector01.c...n_Thornatus.PNG


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#13 Offline Lokisyn

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Posted Jul 06 2013 - 02:13 PM

 Well, I clearly remember seeing quote from Greg which confirmed two suns, but I won't argue, if you couldn't find it, it's probably lost.

 

It doesn't even sound grammatically correct -- "binary star" is short for "binary star system" basically; to go on and name only one of the two stars implies it's a typo or error, since if it was binary it should name both the primary and secondary stars or at least call Solis the primary. Also, binary star systems tend to make life impossible because the temperatures on the planets would shift radically from normal to too hot, unless a planet orbited both stars and they were very close together in a twinned dual orbit around each other (in which case we would clearly see two suns).

 

Binary stars often (or always, I don't know) have the same name, like Alfa Centauri (actually two stars, Alfa Centauri A and Alfa Centauri B). Solis Magna might be the same case, but everyone just calls it Solis Magna for convenience, it might be even not visible most the time.

It's true it could be hot, but from what we've seen, Spherus Magna IS hot planet, but not unhospitable, so maybe it's very far away from the suns?

These radical shifts could actually explain why there is only Northern Frost. Maybe Spherus Magna is tilted like Earth, and by coincidence it happens that when south is nearer the suns, they're both visible (sorry if I'm unclear, english is not my first language)

It probably makes little or no sense, but neither do Kanohi masks or Elemental powers ;)

 

C'mon it's fiction, Tatooine had two stars, Namek had even more. If Greg says it's possible, it is. And it's cool.

 

As for the comics, they're rarely strictly cannon (e.g. Keystones from 2008). Artist for sure didn't know about the two suns (even Greg didn't back then)


Edited by Lokisyn, Jul 06 2013 - 03:23 PM.

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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jul 06 2013 - 03:24 PM

Binary stars often (or always, I don't know) have the same name, like Alfa Centauri

We only call them both "Alpha Centauri" because from our sky, without a telescope, they appear as one star. So not a great analogy to two suns that would be clearly visible from planets in their own system.

 

It probably makes little sense, but neither do Kanohi masks or Elemental powers ;)

Another probably not very good analogy. Kanohi powers and elemental powers make great sense to me. :P They simply rely on physics too complex to need to explain in the protodermis molecule, that is conceivable with standard sci-fi ideas as seen in Star Trek and the like. Which can be summarized as "fictional physics" that "suspend" normal physics, for the things that have those powers.

 

This is more of a problem of basic geometry and heat/light physics, which really can't logically be suspended in Bionicle. It's possible to have two suns and just say that all other portrayals happen not to have the "camera" pointed the right way, but the main problem is not impracticality but just that it would be a major contradiction with earlier definitive statements that there is only one. NOTE: the "distant, barely visible secondary" theory IS plausible, but that doesn't seem to be the TLR portrayal.

 

C'mon it's fiction, Tatooine had two stars,

Yes, and always showed them both in the same frame, so there was never any confusion about it. That system is clearly in the stable orbit around both stars format I mentioned earlier as possible. I hope we would all agree that if you're going to tell 7+ years of story taking place directly under that sky (counting the cameo in LoMN), then the Star Wars route of clearly showing it has two suns from the start is WAY better than waiting for obscure, barely-in-frame depictions in only one canon source and a non-canon source. Yeah? :)

 

Point is, since it was never portrayed that way in earlier story, it would have been better never to go there. I still think it was probably a mistake made due to the confusion with the sky seen with Metru Nui, by the moviemakers. But who knows.

 

These radical shifts could actually explain why there is only Northern Frost. Maybe Spherus Magna is tilted like Earth, and by coincidence it happens that when south is nearer the suns, they're both visible (sorry if I'm unclear, english is not my first language)

That's possible.

 

Another simpler explanation might be no significant tilt, but the texture of the land in the north is enough to provide shade, which pushed the temperature just below freezing on average, whereas in the south there's no land so the surface is (more or less, not counting waves) smooth, and sunlight reaches almost all of it.

 

But fishers' Greg quote above does seem to prove that there are caps plural, so it sounds like there is at least a small one in the Great Sea too.

 

 

 

Edit: While we're on the subject of the number of suns, I was going through the second and third movies for printscreens for my retelling, when I noticed this from the end of LoMN, on the Mata Nui beach:

 

Posted Image

 

Maybe that could be interpreted as two suns -- the brighter light to the right could be the big one partially hidden behind clouds, and that little whitish thing to the left (just above the dark clouds) could be the smaller sun. On the other hand, the whitish thing looks a lot like just another cloud like the five-ish other white whispy shapes that don't happen to be circle-like.

 

Thoughts?


Edited by bonesiii, Jul 06 2013 - 04:29 PM.

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#15 Offline ~garnira returns~

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Posted Jul 06 2013 - 10:03 PM

 

The only place I can recall seeing it in story is herehttp://biosector01.c...Promo_AnimationJust at the start of the clip.

That's non-canon and from 2001. That idea was clearly repurposed for Metru Nui's sky for 2004. :) Otherwise Greg would have been talking about multiple suns in the real sky all that time rather than just one.

 

Admittedly it would be possible to put it into the canon later but why? It wouldn't make sense to contradict all portrayals that made it to the published canon just for a game that was never published.

 

 

I've gone through fishers' 2010+ Greg quotes archive looking for binary (no results), sun (no results), and solis (same), as well as star (all refer to the Red Star). Haven't checked the older ones yet. (Also, any other search terms I should be using instead?)

 

 

Edit: Checking the 2008+ Greg Dialogue file, starting at the end and working backward, binary gives no results. Sun gives this (not from Greg): 

 

Someone else: On the two suns thing, it is astrologically possible for a moon to reflect enough sunlight that it could be considered a second sun. Maybe Aqua magna.

Sounds promising, but no context in the quote above it. Searching on...Here's another hit: 

 

Original questioner: Didn’t Bara Magna have two suns? If so, which is the other one called?Greg: Where did we say it had two suns?OQ: #4 was just to confirm a rumor I heard.Someone else: You’re thinking of Metru Nui, which had two suns (Mata Nui’s eyes).OQ: In TLR two suns were rising as mata nui left vulcanus

Well, that would certainly explain the rumor. I don't recall this scene and I don't actually own TLR. Can anyone confirm this? This may be what the other quote meant -- not that anybody called something a sun but that the movie showed two shiny things and it was taken to be a sun (but might be one of the two large moons; Bota or Aqua Magna).

 

[Another Edit: Found it in a promo video clip online:

 

Posted Image

 

It's very faint (to the lower left of the main sun), and I'm not sure that's not a reflection off a cloud or something. If this is the only such scene that made it to publishing I wouldn't put much canon weight on it.]

 

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

 

What is the name of the sun in the Spherus Magna system? /nGreg: I believe the name I approved was Solis Magna

Note he doesn't disagree with the assumption that it's just one sun.Sounds to me like the TLR people might possible have shown two suns but it would still be non-canon. The moviemakers themselves might have gotten confused from the older movies. 

 

The Toa Mertu know when they found Mata Nui that was outside of the MU?Greg: Yes, they could tell by the sky and the sunlight.

 

Does Bara Magna orbit a star?Greg: Yes

This might be relevant, but possibly not since it doesn't say "the" suns: 

 

Can you confirm that the fortress of the VotM is where the Ignika’s "forges that burn hotter than suns" were located? I believe you already claimed that the caverns of ice where it was cooled were located elsewhere on Spherus Magna. Maybe in the Northern Frost?Greg: Sure, I can confirm that

And given that this comes before the quote where he wasn't aware of an idea of there being two suns in the real sky, I doubt he would have written about two suns in a story prior to this... It probably just means the many stars out there that have life-supporting worlds orbiting them that Mata Nui would visit. 

 

Why is Teriax bothering to destroy Mata Nui. I’m pretty sure you once said that he let mata nui go out of the MU without destroying him to let him live knowing he was beaten.Greg: Right, but he also expected that Mata Nui would die fairly quickly, either because the mask would go into a sun or in some other way get destroyed. Once he realizes weeks have gone by and the mask is still active, he figures he may have a problem with a still surviving Mata Nui.

This one seems to open the possibility for more than one sun to have been in range, but this is not necessarily proof of a binary system, as the "alien stars" might be closer than the closest star in real life is to our sun (about four light-years which is fairly unusually far compared to other star arrangements in our galaxy, if memory serves, especially toward the galactic core). 

 

Will it be revealed what lights the Bara Magna system? (i.e. is there a sun somewhere?)Greg: Of course there is.

 

1. The something I just noticed, but I remember you saying that in TLR that BM will be shown to have more than 1 suns. I’m just wondering how could BM and the EOP be in the same solar system if EOP only has 1?Greg: How many have we shown the EOP to have?

Urg, he just doesn't seem to want to confirm it lol...Alright, this one helps: 

 

How many suns are in Bara Magna’s sky?[/b] Some of the story so far makes it sound like there’s more than one, but I haven’t got confirmation.Greg: I believe I was told more than one would be shown in the movie, but not having seen the movie, I don’t know which direction they went with it.

So, he's saying this is something the movie people are doing that he has no input on and was unaware which was right at that time (therefore no need to go further back in time, methinks). So it comes down to whether TLR meant to show two suns and whether that is canon or not. I'm not seeing any confirmation of it, so I still doubt it.

 

Note also that TLR is the one that shows the "Endless Ocean" planet as a lumpy potato moon akin to Mars' moons, clearly incorrect (and Bota Magna is also shown lumpy, but water especially could not do that). So it doesn't exactly have a great track record of astronomical accuracy. 

 

Who's to say that the "second sun" isn't a stylized lens flare...

 

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#16 Offline Takhamavahu

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Posted Jul 06 2013 - 10:21 PM

It was made very clear back in 2004 that on Mata Nui, there is only one sun, and over Metru Nui, there were two.

 

Spherus Magna should probably have polar ice caps, and that's probably what the Nother Frost is, but the planet has been ripped apart and put back together in (geologically) a very short time. They're bound to be a little screwed up at the moment.


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