Right Hand Matoran, Left Hand?

[bonesiii]

Does anyone have a list of the twelve Right- and Left-Hand Matoran (highest ranks) of the Turaga on Mata Nui?

 

I've found my memory a bit foggy and BS01 doesn't seem to have a handy list that I found. It says on at least some of the individual pages (like Jaller's as Ta Right), but I thought, for example, that Kapura was Ta Left but I don't see it on his page. Do we even know them all? I'm not sure where to look to find this info, but I wanted to include it in my retelling.

[Click]

As far as I recall, the right hands were the Inika and the lefts the Chronicler's Co., although I do recall there was one exception. I believe Hahli and Macku were switched.

[Omega12]

Well Matoro was Nujus right hand. Wasn't Hafu the right hand in po koro?

[LewaLew]

IF I remember correctly: (Right first, left second)

 

Ta: Jaller, Kapura

Ga: Kotu, Macku

Onu: Onepu, Taipu

Po: Hewkii, Hafu

Ko: Matoro, Kopeke

Le: Kongu, Tamaru

 

The only real exceptions to what Click said (Right=Inika, Left=Chroniclers' Co.) were Onepu instead of Nuparu, and Kotu instead of Hahli.

Edited July 8, 2013 by LewaLew

[Relapse]

How Hahli plays into this is confusing...if I remember correctly she was a Kohlii player, and yet she ended up with the Inika crew.

[Omega12]

LewaLew is correct with all of the right hands. The left hands just seem to be chroniclers company, except maku is right and kotu is left.

[Just A Dot]

You could have checked the MNOG files if you have the game downloaded, because every Turaga says it (recycled dialogue!), but it seems this problem has been solved.

[LewaLew]

How Hahli plays into this is confusing...if I remember correctly she was a Kohlii player, and yet she ended up with the Inika crew.

The main reason Hahli was part of the group is because it was assembled by Jaller, and Hahli was one of Jaller's close friends and so he was better acquainted with her than with Macku. I would presume he got to know Nuparu well after the Boxor was invented, and brought him more than his inventive skill rather than their familiarity with each other, otherwise I figure he would have chosen Onepu, since I imagine they would have interacted often as the heads of the Ta-Koro Guard and the Ussalry, respectively.

[bonesiii]

every Turaga says it (recycled dialogue!), but it seems this problem has been solved

Actually that helps to know every Turaga says it; that's convenient. I'll go check that out to be 100% sure. I presume this is while you're gathering the Company... They don't say it at the start of the game.

 

But thanks, LL, for the list. I guess I'll leave this open for a bit until I confirm each one in MNOG...

 

The left hands just seem to be chroniclers company, except maku is right and kotu is left.

Was this a typo? Sounds like it's the other way around... Anywho, now that I know where to check, should know soon...

 

 

Re: Nuparu vs. Onepu -- it could be that knowing Onepu well was part of the reason Jaller didn't ask him. He's been portrayed as rather self-important and that might have rubbed Jaller the wrong way. Nuparu seemed to work better with others, and clearly this was a big thing to Jaller, unlike Tahu. Plus of course, only the Toa who were destined to be the Inika went, so Jaller was merely being the vehicle of that destiny being fulfilled, whatever reasons he thought he had. Had he chosen Onepu, presumably he couldn't be a Toa.

 

Edit: Have checked Ta and Ga. Actually it appears Omega 12 is right -- Maku is the right, not the left.

Edit2: Po confirmed...

 

I don't see confirmation for Onepu and Taipu. Whenua mentions them, in that order (making it sound like Onepu might seem to be the first choice), but I didn't see right/left mentioned.

 

Edit3: Onepu calls himself the "Special Aide" of the Turaga. Assuming special means "most special" it seems to confirm it. Still, I'd like to be sure.

 

Kopeke confirmed as Ko Left. Matoro not mentioned as Right but I have no doubt, heh.

 

And you apparently can't get to Le-Koro during that chapter; you just see Tamaru and he joins immediately...

Edited July 8, 2013 by bonesiii

[Just A Dot]

And you apparently can't get to Le-Koro during that chapter; you just see Tamaru and he joins immediately...

 

I forgot about that. Are you playing through the game, or did you check the files? 'Cause now I'm curious to see if there is unused Matau dialogue.EDIT: Post 500! After nearly 6 years! WOOH!

Edited July 8, 2013 by Ghabulous Ghoti

[bonesiii]

I have no idea what files to check.

[Katuko]

Plus of course, only the Toa who were destined to be the Inika went, so Jaller was merely being the vehicle of that destiny being fulfilled, whatever reasons he thought he had. Had he chosen Onepu, presumably he couldn't be a Toa.

I don't like this line of thought. It implies that Mata Nui and/or the GBs knew exactly how every situation would play out, and embedded it in the MU's setup, to the point where they actively influence the actions of the beings within. While there are signs that can tell which Matoran are capable of transforming - we learned that with the Toa Metru - it is evidently also possible to attempt to stop that from happening.Besides, the Red Star lightning was a contingency for a case where Toa would be needed outside the MU. For that reason, it would likely have worked on any Matoran, otherwise there was a huge chance of failure. What if a Toa was desperately needed but only non-destined Kotu (for example) came within reach of the star? Would it then skip Toa-fying her, leading to potentially disastrous results because no Toa would be present to deal with the situation?

Edit3: Onepu calls himself the "Special Aide" of the Turaga. Assuming special means "most special" it seems to confirm it. Still, I'd like to be sure.

Onepu is leader of the guard, like Jaller is leader of the guard in Ta-Koro. That seems to imply even higher rank than whatever Taipu has.

And you apparently can't get to Le-Koro during that chapter; you just see Tamaru and he joins immediately...

Correct. However, since Kongu seems to be head of the Gukko squads, it seems obvious that he is the right-hand as well.

[bonesiii]

Plus of course, only the Toa who were destined to be the Inika went, so Jaller was merely being the vehicle of that destiny being fulfilled, whatever reasons he thought he had. Had he chosen Onepu, presumably he couldn't be a Toa.

I don't like this line of thought.

You do realize it's canon fact, right? I didn't make it up... Of course, it's possible Onepu is destined to become a Toa too and might have been Toa-ized early (or late, or whatever, if that kind of destiny even has a correct time), so not sure how that would work. But if he's not destined to become Toa he simply could not be.

 

It's the same as with Mata Nui tricking Teridax into influencing Lhikan to pick the wrong Toa Metru in order to pick the right Toa Metru.

It implies that Mata Nui and/or the GBs knew exactly how every situation would play out, and embedded it in the MU's setup, to the point where they actively influence the actions of the beings within.

I highly doubt that. As I've mentioned many times before, since protodermis itself is an advanced molecule it seems likely to me that there is an active "subsystem" in all the molecules that influences actions toward destiny (as you might imagine, this is something I go into more detail on in my history retelling named after destiny; The Destiny of Bionicle ). Mata Nui didn't pay attention to his universe (choosing the Toa Metru is presumably something he did after realizing he was sick and it was too late to undo the sickness -- but here, too, Mata Nui was just being the vehicle to fulfill a destiny that was already set). But both he and the GBs did set some destinies.

 

Most likely the majority of Toa destinies were set by protodermis itself though. Also, keep in mind it's probably circular -- in real life, we make most decisions subconsciously long before we ever consciously realize what they are. If someone can (for example, hypnotically, or by judging body language or word choices, etc.) read what those decisions were, they can predict future actions based on them (I've experimented with some of this, as I've said before, and it can work) and plan accordingly.

 

So destiny might be able to "forecast" like a weather report which Matoran would fit best for the Inika mission, work together, and willingly sacrifice himself in Matoro's case, at the time of those Matoran's creation, so set their destinies then.

 

And/or they may simply have been made "just in case" to be destined to be Toa, while the destiny systems might adaptively change what destinies they have as events progress (updating the forecast like weathermen do, if the accuracy is not so perfect), so that their destined natures manifest in personalities that naturally get along better, and that would be how Jaller thought to pick them.

 

Even if I'm wrong about this explanation of destiny, then it's still fact that you have to already be destined to be Toa if you become one, so "somehow" something like this must be true.

 

While there are signs that can tell which Matoran are capable of transforming - we learned that with the Toa Metru - it is evidently also possible to attempt to stop that from happening.

Keep in mind I'm one of the few people who has insisted that is so. Preaching to the choir there. That's why I say that if Jaller had picked the wrong ones, the destined ones he did pick would have been stopped from becoming Toa, and the wrong ones who came would likely also fail to be Toa.

 

Besides, the Red Star lightning was a contingency for a case where Toa would be needed outside the MU. For that reason, it would likely have worked on any Matoran, otherwise there was a huge chance of failure.

This idea has been brought up and debunked long ago because there were many Matoran already available on Voya Nui to be Toa-ized. Clearly none of them were destined to be Toa or at least not the Toa Inika.

 

What if a Toa was desperately needed but only non-destined Kotu (for example) came within reach of the star? Would it then skip Toa-fying her, leading to potentially disastrous results because no Toa would be present to deal with the situation?

According to what we've been told, the lightning just wouldn't work. Destined Matoran already have a small amount of Toa Energy in them and Toa-izing reacts with this. Likely the RS had to detect it in order to even activate and aim the beams. So it's not that the RS would "skip" her, actually, but that it simply could not Toa-ize her.

 

 

 

Yeah, I think I'm convinced of the list (with Maku and Kotu switched). I'm still curious if anyone knows what files to check, in case there was indeed unused dialogue to use so I guess I gotta leave this open, plus for the destiny conversation we are now having. But I'll go ahead and the write the chapter with the rights and lefts assuming the list is right...

[Just A Dot]

I have no idea what files to check.

 

They are in .txt documents, so just do a search of the folder with the search terms "right+hand" or "left+hand", which didn't turn up anything from Matau sadly.

 

EDIT: That WAS the only thing I searched, so feel free to do a more in-depth one and see what you uncover. I had previously looked through the files while making a video on the beta stuff from this game, and, while it was a really lazy search, I didn't find anything too significant.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Ghabulous Ghoti

[Toatapio Nuva]

IF I remember correctly: (Right first, left second)

 

Ta: Jaller, Kapura

Ga: Kotu, Macku

Onu: Onepu, Taipu

Po: Hewkii, Hafu

Ko: Matoro, Kopeke

Le: Kongu, Tamaru

 

The only real exceptions to what Click said (Right=Inika, Left=Chroniclers' Co.) were Onepu instead of Nuparu, and Kotu instead of Hahli.

 

Correction: Macku was Nokama's right hand while Kotu was left.

[Katuko]

You do realize it's canon fact, right? I didn't make it up... Of course, it's possible Onepu is destined to become a Toa too and might have been Toa-ized early (or late, or whatever, if that kind of destiny even has a correct time), so not sure how that would work. But if he's not destined to become Toa he simply could not be.

I'm fine with some Matoran being flagged as "destined" and some being not. What I don't like is the notion that having destiny means that said destiny cannot fail at all. That if you are destined to be a Toa you *will* be a Toa, or that if you have the destiny to defeat a dragon said dragon will not have the ability to eat you if you are careless. Or that if you do get eaten that was your "real destiny".

I highly doubt that. As I've mentioned many times before, since protodermis itself is an advanced molecule it seems likely to me that there is an active "subsystem" in all the molecules that influences actions toward destiny (as you might imagine, this is something I go into more detail on in my history retelling named after destiny; The Destiny of Bionicle ).

You mention this rewriting all the time. Are you done with it soon? saying you have it explained doesn't really help the discussion if we can't read your explanation of things.

Mata Nui didn't pay attention to his universe (choosing the Toa Metru is presumably something he did after realizing he was sick and it was too late to undo the sickness -- but here, too, Mata Nui was just being the vehicle to fulfill a destiny that was already set). But both he and the GBs did set some destinies.

They set them, and they can try to manipulate things to happen that way, but I still find it silly that such a destiny might actually force a predetermined conclusion. Takes all the drama away if there is no chance of failure for anyone, and if every death or action is destined somehow.

Most likely the majority of Toa destinies were set by protodermis itself though. Also, keep in mind it's probably circular -- in real life, we make most decisions subconsciously long before we ever consciously realize what they are. If someone can (for example, hypnotically, or by judging body language or word choices, etc.) read what those decisions were, they can predict future actions based on them (I've experimented with some of this, as I've said before, and it can work) and plan accordingly.

Yes, but that is pattern analysis and prediction at work, not someone saying "this kid will kill a dragon" when you are born and then you going on to kill that dragon with no chance of failure because destiny says so.

So destiny might be able to "forecast" like a weather report which Matoran would fit best for the Inika mission, work together, and willingly sacrifice himself in Matoro's case, at the time of those Matoran's creation, so set their destinies then.And/or they may simply have been made "just in case" to be destined to be Toa, while the destiny systems might adaptively change what destinies they have as events progress (updating the forecast like weathermen do, if the accuracy is not so perfect), so that their destined natures manifest in personalities that naturally get along better, and that would be how Jaller thought to pick them.

I can agree with it working as a "forecast" upon Toa-ization; checking what a given Matoran might be good for and the assigning an appropriate task for it to do as a Toa.

 

Besides, the Red Star lightning was a contingency for a case where Toa would be needed outside the MU. For that reason, it would likely have worked on any Matoran, otherwise there was a huge chance of failure.

This idea has been brought up and debunked long ago because there were many Matoran already available on Voya Nui to be Toa-ized. Clearly none of them were destined to be Toa or at least not the Toa Inika.

 

The Matoran on Voya Nui were technically scrapheaps running on botched Karzahni repairs. That might have flagged them as just as damaged as the rest of the island was. Before the Piraka arrived there was no direct necessity for Toa, and the Inika-to-be arrived in Toa canisters. For all we know the Red Star systems had just started the search for viable Toa when the universe's situation began to worsen, and targeted the best candidates right then.I'm wondering what would happen if there really were no destined Matoran left in the MU and a Toa was needed.

 

What if a Toa was desperately needed but only non-destined Kotu (for example) came within reach of the star? Would it then skip Toa-fying her, leading to potentially disastrous results because no Toa would be present to deal with the situation?

According to what we've been told, the lightning just wouldn't work. Destined Matoran already have a small amount of Toa Energy in them and Toa-izing reacts with this. Likely the RS had to detect it in order to even activate and aim the beams. So it's not that the RS would "skip" her, actually, but that it simply could not Toa-ize her.

 

I am fine with this, but I still wonder why such a fail-safe would only be made to work with destined Toa when destined Toa might simply not exist outside of the MU at all. In that case I'd personally design a drone of sorts to fly down and inject a canister of "Toa Energy" into a Matoran.

[bonesiii]

Takes all the drama away if there is no chance of failure for anyone

Well, I agree. Wasn't my point at all.

 

Re: progress on the retelling -- I've started to use the "update" feature on my profile to report on this as I go. You can keep track of it there, also a comment about that in my latest blog entry.

 

The Matoran on Voya Nui were technically scrapheaps running on botched Karzahni repairs. That might have flagged them as just as damaged as the rest of the island was.

A fair point... on the other hand, that's an untestable hypothesis (short of a Greg answer). The evidence we have already says that they aren't destined -- what you say might be a reason they aren't that isn't normal, but we would have no way of knowing.

 

For all we know the Red Star systems had just started the search for viable Toa when the universe's situation began to worsen, and targeted the best candidates right then.

The lightning appears to have been firing for quite a while before the Inika arrived, actually (though not before the Piraka). It seems more like it had no candidates until they arrived. Also, there were already six Toa on the island. Maybe it could sense they'd just lost, of course. Anywho, we're getting quite a bit off-topic now.

 

I'm wondering what would happen if there really were no destined Matoran left in the MU and a Toa was needed.

Assuming he's still around and/or the machine he might have used, Artakha could probably make them the way the Toa Mata were made. And if that option wasn't available... then it would come down to whoever was left to do whatever they could, and if it wasn't enough.. that would be bad.

I still wonder why such a fail-safe would only be made to work with destined Toa when destined Toa might simply not exist outside of the MU at all.

My understanding (partially theoretical) is that destiny is a unified system, so whatever influences events inside would make sure destined Matoran ended up going outside (which is exactly what happened with Jaller's team).

 

That is, it would open the route for them, and make it clear to them that they're needed somehow (subconscious), but it would still be up to them to choose to actually go (and all six to-be-Inika did -- actually this sort of thing, when the stakes are that high, would probably be pretty easy to predict; nearly everybody would do it).

[ToaKapura1234]

My question is why the Red Star didn't hit the Inika back in 05 when they first stepped foot outside the MU. And also Velika and Balta, I think, transformed in the Kingdom. Ooh. Toa evil great being. That would have been interesting to see the kingdom again. But I'm getting off the off-topic topic. Maybe you should rename this thread to be about the red star since the whole right/left is answered.

[bonesiii]

My question is why the Red Star didn't hit the Inika back in 05 when they first stepped foot outside the MU.

Well, Mata Nui was not close to death then. And they would have had no obvious means to transportation to Voya Nui from there. Maybe make a big boat voyage, but with no navigation, that's no luck. And they could make it down to the city, but Makuta would oppose them and without the Toa Mata to play their part in the return yet that probably would have failed. So they needed the Mata, and Takanuva (who also needed the Mata to jump-start his destiny), and had to go to the city to have any hope of getting to Voya Nui.

 

And also Velika and Balta, I think, transformed in the Kingdom.

Right, which is part of why I say nobody on Voya Nui was destined to be Toa Inika specifically, at least in the Core Dimension. We can't assume that alternate versions of them are identical in terms of whether they're given the traces of TE at lifestart, but if they are, then the Toa-izing thing must sense more than just that; it must include specific information about the mission they're assigned to (the destinies that Toa fulfill, after being Toa-ized).

 

Maybe you should rename this thread to be about the red star since the whole right/left is answered.

How did we get on to that lol? Anyways, I think we're not likely to have any shortage of continuing mysteries and unanswered questions about the Red Star, and people are free to make new topics about all that if yall wanna continue this discussion. I'd rather just close this; I'm satisfied now that I've gotten clear enough evidence for the entire list (with Ga corrected), and as much as I'm likely to get. And following the rule about staying on topic is awesome, so...

 

Closified.