MU Beginnings

[Art Vandelay]

Why is it that none of the Matoran remember Spherus Magna, the Great Beings, and the creation of Mata Nui? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they aid in the construction of the robot? Or is it that they developed intelligence and self-awareness sometime after the creation of the MU? It just seems like they should remember something as significant as their origin and the creation of the universe.

[bonesiii]

I see no reason why the non-Metru ones shouldn't remember the construction stages. And they most certainly do recall the Great Beings (even the Metruans still knew this thanks to the Turaga on Mata Nui island). But they never knew about SM.

 

Remember that the work they did was all internal, done in darkness at first, building the stuff on the islands inside the domes and such.

[Art Vandelay]

And they most certainly do recall the Great Beings (even the Metruans still knew this thanks to the Turaga on Mata Nui

 

I knew that they knew the GBs existed, but I never thought they remembered any details about them.

 

 

I see no reason why the non-Metru ones shouldn't remember the construction stages.

 

Ok, that's what I thought, I just wasn't sure because it was never really mentioned for obvious reasons.

 

 

But they never knew about SM.

 

Remember that the work they did was all internal, done in darkness at first, building the stuff on the islands inside the domes and such.

 

Ok, I remember that now. I knew they were created in Metru Nui, and did all the internal work, but I thought that some of them may have left the dome at some point to aid with external construction.

 

Thanks

[bonesiii]

I don't think we know how much they know about the GBs. For some reason they don't question that they're basically the top authorities, over even Mata Nui. But that might be about all they know.

 

And glad I could help.

[Art Vandelay]

I don't think we know how much they know about the GBs. For some reason they don't question that they're basically the top authorities, over even Mata Nui. But that might be about all they know.

 

And glad I could help.

Yeah, that's always something that bugged me; Why do they not question the Great Beings as the authority over even their Great Spirit? I wonder if the Great Beings actually ever revealed themselves to the Matoran...

[25K Now!]

The GBs did check on the Matoran working when they decided to shove the Ignika deep beneath the earth, but the workers didn't notice them.

[Art Vandelay]

The GBs did check on the Matoran working when they decided to shove the Ignika deep beneath the earth, but the workers didn't notice them.

 

Or maybe they put in in there after the Chamber of Life was completed when there weren't any Matoran workers around...

[bonesiii]

It's possible they did earlier. Dunno. If I recall correctly, at the Ignika incident the idea was that it's one of the three most important objects possible in the universe (the third not being made but you get the point), so secrecy was important. The fact that they COULD appear invisible to the Matoran doesn't mean they always had to.

 

Something that just occured to me is that since the Matoran didn't understand the world they were in, and lived in darkness, worked, and the lights came on, they may credit the GBs for "rescuing them from the ancient shadows" by telling them exactly how to work. Whether they appeared before them or not might not be important; as long as those who did appear (like Toa) telling them to follow those instructions gave the credit to the GBs, that would go down as a strongly emotionally reinforced event in history. The GBs would be seen as heroes for that.

 

Maybe that's enough.

 

Also, if Mata Nui did ever comment on things to anyone in the early days he might confirm that the GBs are his bosses. That could have similar effects.

[Art Vandelay]

It's possible they did earlier. Dunno. If I recall correctly, at the Ignika incident the idea was that it's one of the three most important objects possible in the universe (the third not being made but you get the point), so secrecy was important. The fact that they COULD appear invisible to the Matoran doesn't mean they always had to.

 

I would think the Chamber of Life would already had to have been constructed before the Ignika could be placed there.

 

 

Something that just occured to me is that since the Matoran didn't understand the world they were in, and lived in darkness, worked, and the lights came on, they may credit the GBs for "rescuing them from the ancient shadows" by telling them exactly how to work. Whether they appeared before them or not might not be important; as long as those who did appear (like Toa) telling them to follow those instructions gave the credit to the GBs, that would go down as a strongly emotionally reinforced event in history. The GBs would be seen as heroes for that.

 

Maybe that's enough.

 

That's a very good idea theory, though I think Mata Nui would have been the one to deliver the GB's declaration of their heroic acts to the Matoran since he is the Great Spirit. The only thing I see wrong with it is the fact that the GBs didn't know the Matoran were sentient at the time, so I'm not sure why they would feel the need to reveal their existence to the Matoran. They were supposed to carry out their "programming" like robots, because that's how all the GBs saw them as at the time.

 

Also, if Mata Nui did ever comment on things to anyone in the early days he might confirm that the GBs are his bosses. That could have similar effects.

 

Mata Nui sounds a bit like GregF there.

 

But I think if MN talked to anyone in the early days, it would have been Artahka, the Makuta, or maybe Tren Krom.

[bonesiii]

I would think the Chamber of Life would already had to have been constructed before the Ignika could be placed there.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll just ask why you bring this up. It's rather obvious they had to carve it first to put something in it, no? Not 100% sure I understand what that has to do with this topic...

 

That's a very good idea theory, though I think Mata Nui would have been the one to deliver the GB's declaration of their heroic acts to the Matoran since he is the Great Spirit. The only thing I see wrong with it is the fact that the GBs didn't know the Matoran were sentient at the time, so I'm not sure why they would feel the need to reveal their existence to the Matoran.

I presume that long before Mata Nui first awoke (when... or maybe even before... TK was in charge), somebody (maybe TK, maybe Toa, maybe the GBs themselves) would go around giving instructions as they made Matoran the first time. No real reason for the GBs to keep their existence a secret from their creations. Why not be the ones to give the instructions themselves? The fact that they didn't know they were fully sapient actually should mean there was no reason NOT to reveal their existence; they were their machines, essentially.

 

However, recall that Greg did say they intended the Matoran to be partially sapient. This part of the story is very often misunderstood (not sure why). And certainly sentient. It seems that the thing they didn't know was that they were fully sapient and/or had freewill. So they may have designed their programming to respond with "obedience" when the authority was clearly known from the start.

 

Either way, even a computer's parts needs to be programmed to respond obediently to authority and that can't work if the authority is entirely disconnected from the other parts. They needn't know what the authorities look like but they would need to follow their instructions. And such a message for intelligent beings and even just advanced computers will usually have a 'sender' tag.

 

I should mention that this knowledge might also not come from a spoken message but could have been downloaded into the brains of every new Matoran (and others) when they were made too. Regardless of the how, it makes sense to me the Matoran would know that it's at least claimed that the GBs were the originators of those instructions, the instructions worked, and they'd thank them for it.

 

I was also thinking that since they were new and the results of their full sapience hadn't yet manifested obviously, the idea of questioning such claims of credit would not yet occur to anyone for many years later.

 

 

 

Agreed about who MN would probably talk to. I feature him talking to the Makuta on their first day or so of existence in my retelling. Also especially Helryx (as the name of the group implies, heh).

 

Although probably not TK. He was basically imprisoned due to being powerful when Mata Nui first came online, so I doubt they'd get along well lol.

[25K Now!]

If I remember Legends #5, they mentioned seeing the Matoran.

[Art Vandelay]

 

The GBs did check on the Matoran working when they decided to shove the Ignika deep beneath the earth, but the workers didn't notice them.

 

Or maybe they put in in there after the Chamber of Life was completed when there weren't any Matoran workers around...

 

 

 

I would think the Chamber of Life would already had to have been constructed before the Ignika could be placed there.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll just ask why you bring this up. It's rather obvious they had to carve it first to put something in it, no? Not 100% sure I understand what that has to do with this topic...

 

 

 

Lol, I think we both misunderstood each other there. I thought we were still talking about the Ignika being placed in the CoL.

 

 

I presume that long before Mata Nui first awoke (when... or maybe even before... TK was in charge), somebody (maybe TK, maybe Toa, maybe the GBs themselves) would go around giving instructions as they made Matoran the first time. No real reason for the GBs to keep their existence a secret from their creations. Why not be the ones to give the instructions themselves? The fact that they didn't know they were fully sapient actually should mean there was no reason NOT to reveal their existence; they were their machines, essentially.

 

However, recall that Greg did say they intended the Matoran to be partially sapient. This part of the story is very often misunderstood (not sure why). And certainly sentient. It seems that the thing they didn't know was that they were fully sapient and/or had freewill. So they may have designed their programming to respond with "obedience" when the authority was clearly known from the start.

 

Either way, even a computer's parts needs to be programmed to respond obediently to authority and that can't work if the authority is entirely disconnected from the other parts. They needn't know what the authorities look like but they would need to follow their instructions. And such a message for intelligent beings and even just advanced computers will usually have a 'sender' tag.

 

I should mention that this knowledge might also not come from a spoken message but could have been downloaded into the brains of every new Matoran (and others) when they were made too. Regardless of the how, it makes sense to me the Matoran would know that it's at least claimed that the GBs were the originators of those instructions, the instructions worked, and they'd thank them for it.

 

I was also thinking that since they were new and the results of their full sapience hadn't yet manifested obviously, the idea of questioning such claims of credit would not yet occur to anyone for many years later.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't really explain myself well there. What I meant was, I don't think the GB's would have felt the need to make some big reveal that they are the heroes of the Matoran since they thought they were only partially sapient. (I also confused sapient and sentient. ) You're right that if they thought that the Matoran were only partially sapient, they wouldn't need to worry about staying hidden, but that's not what I meant.

 

"I was also thinking that since they were new and the results of their full sapience hadn't yet manifested obviously, the idea of questioning such claims of credit would not yet occur to anyone for many years later. :shrugs:"

 

I was thinking the same thing in my first post.

 

 

Or is it that they developed intelligence and self-awareness sometime after the creation of the MU?

 

 

 

Although probably not TK. He was basically imprisoned due to being powerful when Mata Nui first came online, so I doubt they'd get along well lol.

 

 

Good point about TK.

If I remember Legends #5, they mentioned seeing the Matoran.

 

The GBs mentioned this?

[25K Now!]

Yeah. I have the book. The GBs basically saw the Matoran working and ignoring them.

[Art Vandelay]

Yeah. I have the book. The GBs basically saw the Matoran working and ignoring them.

 

I do vaguely remember this now that you mention it. I'll have to re-read #5.

[bonesiii]

What I meant was, I don't think the GB's would have felt the need to make some big reveal that they are the heroes of the Matoran since they thought they were only partially sapient.

I didn't mean to imply they would. I was just commenting on why from the Matoran's perspective the GBs as the top dogs might still be common knowledge (despite not appearing for so long) and not apparently be questioned. This would be purely how the Matoran would see it, at least later on, due to being fully sapient.

 

From the GBs' point of view, it wouldn't have felt like a "big reveal" at all, but simply handing out instructions with some way of knowing who they came from (whether standing before them or not, though I kind of like literally speaking to them a bit better).

 

The specific quote in the book is:

 

 

 

All around them, the biomechanical beings they had named Matoran were hard at work at an assortment of tasks. They took no notice of the newcomers, for that is how the travelers wished it.

 

My point was that the reason they wished this is that they're hiding such an important and secret thing (not that they imagined the Matoran were fully sapient but that machines can glitch, and they don't seem to treat it as an urgent secret per se but Contingencies R Us are obsessively cautious so yeah). For other purposes earlier on when the GBs were present such secrecy might not always have been needed.

 

So, it's possible many Matoran have literally set eyes on them, and may even still recall it to this day.

 

 

Edit: I missed part of your post, sorry...

 

"I was also thinking that since they were new and the results of their full sapience hadn't yet manifested obviously, the idea of questioning such claims of credit would not yet occur to anyone for many years later. :shrugs:"

I was thinking the same thing in my first post.

Trydeltix, on 25 Jul 2013 - 7:04 PM, said:

Or is it that they developed intelligence and self-awareness sometime after the creation of the MU?

Actually I don't mean that to be the same thing, if I'm understanding you right. I'm pretty firmly convinced they had full sapience from the start (and definitely full intelligence capacity). I meant that the idea simply might not have yet occurred to them. Later on Matoran seem easily able to question such claims, but my point is that since this happened so early and would have been so emotionally powerful it makes sense that one event at least would be exempt from that questioning. (This is actually a side effect of being fully sapient really, not the other way around.)

 

But I suppose if it didn't develop yet, a similar thing could explain it too; that memories from before they were really able to question are still difficult to question.

Edited July 26, 2013 by bonesiii

[25K Now!]

They could have forgotten a lot though. 100 millennia is a long time.

[bonesiii]

Sure. Which is why I think emotional power is probably important, as that kind of thing is usually what is remembered most vividly (and/or the basic idea the longest even when it becomes blurry).

 

Edit: Is there a reason "Rahi" is one of the tags for this topic? Am I missing something?

Edited July 26, 2013 by bonesiii

[Art Vandelay]

Sure. Which is why I think emotional power is probably important, as that kind of thing is usually what is remembered most vividly (and/or the basic idea the longest even when it becomes blurry).

 

Edit: Is there a reason "Rahi" is one of the tags for this topic? Am I missing something?

 

Lol, I was going to say something about Makuta making Rahi, but I forgot about it when posting the topic. You're not missing anything.

[Katuko]

In the initial stages of the MU, I think the Matoran were indeed "just robots", albeit very advanced ones. Maybe their memory didn't work the same way, maybe even as organic memory it still discarded anything that wasn't relevant to the matter at hand or the future of the work. A Matoran would keep memories of the Great Beings and their status, but maybe phase out things like "yesterday I built a wall in the giant robot in the desert!" because it wouldn't be important to the later purpose of internal work.Instead, the Matoran would remember things like how to perform a certain job, and how to do someone else's job after having seen in; just in case the Matoran doing that job would be destroyed. For example, Onu-Matoran are good at tunneling, but any Matoran can make a simple tunnel if needed. It's a basic task. They can also do it better if taught by an Onu-Matoran, and thus we have robots with adaptable skills.The Great Beings ended up doing the same thing that has happened with many other fictional robot races: They made self-learning/adapting/evolving artificial intelligence which eventually became true sentience on the part of the MU beings - in this case I'd bet it's at least partially due to the actual organic components in the bio-mechanical bodies, allowing them more "natural" ways of evolving than a purely robotic being (Vahki, Maxilos, etc.), which may not be able to adapt beyond the initial limits of its programming.A similar thing happened in the Geth from the Mass Effect universe. They began as a basic hive mind of semi-organic robots, designed for being adaptable personal servants of the Quarian race. Let's say such a being tried to use a tool it hadn't used before. It could pick up a hammer, turn it around, judge the ways of using it. In the Geth, every test result would be transmitted near instantly to every other Geth platform, so that the instant one unit learned what the hammer could be used for every other unit would also know. In the case of a Matoran, there is no hive mind, but the ability for one "unit" to actually learn by doing and then teaching this to another unit is very valuable. It makes the programmer (with some ingenuity, which the GBs have lots of) to program all basic tasks such as moving, using simple tools, etc... and then add in logic programs that deduce how to use tools and machinery which the unit has never encountered before. The robots can "update" themselves so that the entire staff of robots learns how to do something without needing the creator to be there or do anything.The MU inhabitants happened to develop individual personalities, thoughts, mannerisms... they became real sentient lifeforms. The Geth did much the same in ME, though they were still a hive mind and referred to themselves - even as a singular unit - as both "we" and "this platform" and were uncertain of whether a given unit even had a personality. A single unit could only run about a hundred programs at once, while the massive interstellar network servers - the true core of the Geth - were comprised of millions of "programs" and billions of individual "platform" feedback. So a single Geth would be somewhat like an animal intelligence, while the more Geth there were in a single area the more they could learn from each other and the more they could allow themselves to think independently and be more like people.Unique Geth like the crew member Legion were more advanced, and was definitely on the level of sentience by the end of its development. Achieving true self-awareness - and thus independent thought and also "real" emotion - was a part of the Geth's ultimate goal to become a "true" species. MU inhabitants likely went the same route - from basic programming, to learning, to forming individual "unit" traits and finally reaching the point where every unit had its own personality and biological drive to "just live" in addition to its programmed tasks/job -- this became the sense of "duty" and "destiny" but no longer forced a Matoran to actually perform that job all the time if it didn't feel like it.Before the later stages of this development, I don't think the Matoran really "knew" what the Great Beings were. In a robot's mind, the GB would just be another factor to consider in its AI's decision-making process: Are my actions in line with the orders coming from <this very important unit>? If yes, continue. If no, adapt in the most logical manner until they are. Once they reached more advanced levels, MU beings might have started doing things in their own fashion. For example:Obedient worker: "Creator <Angonce> has ordered something. I must do <what he asks> immediately!"More independent worker: "<My current agenda> leads to <the most statistically advantageous result>. Creator <Angonce>'s orders lead to <a less efficient result with no other apparent advantages>, thus the boundaries of his command will be stretched until a satisfactory compromise can be reached."In this case Angonce would have given an order the Matoran may not consider good enough... and it may have chosen to disobey because it thought something else would be better to do. Maybe this was intended behavior - learning AI may actually surpass the creator in competence at certain tasks, as we have seen in such things as real life chess AI; or programs which calculate efficiency factors much faster than any human.At some point (likely relatively quickly once the cascading results in AI and biological brain functions started interacting) this form of adapted AI became full-fledged self-awareness. In a robot/living being transition, I guess you could mark it as the time when Takua stops saying "This unit requires sustenance. It is logical that unit <Jaller> does as well due to similar work schedules. Unit <Jaller>, come along to the energy recharge station." and starts speaking like "Jaller, I'm hungry! I bet you are too, let's go eat!" :PVelika is a Great Being who seems to think MU inhabitants are still just "units", no matter how personal they have become with each other. Those that have served their purpose must die to avoid clogging up the system, it seems. If not, he instead has a dangerous lack of care for the life that has developed, if he recognizes it as such. Angonce certainly cares about what the GBs have achieved.I find debate about levels of sentience in artificial beings very interesting, so I'm sorry if I went off topic a bit here. To sum it all up: I think most Matoran remember most of their life, but likely not everything from before they achieved proper self-awareness since they would essentially be a different kind of person at that time.

[bonesiii]

I have only a minute or so, just wanted to point out that there's no evidence that any significant time is possible for them to have been literally like robots in behavior (as in the emotionless sort anyways). Orde's behavior and the GBs' response for example shows that they at least had sapient-like emotions nearly from the start. They could have thought of it as glitching, but also recall that Greg did say they were always intended to be at least partially sapient.

 

I get the sense that it's specifically freewill that the GBs didn't realize they'd made. They knew that they could "operate outside parameters" but the reasons why might have been mistaken for glitches.

 

Also, I doubt Velika literally doesn't realize they're fully sapient while Angonce does. It seems to me that either Velika doesn't care, or more likely he does but he has larger goals that having them act (regardless of reason) within parameters are necessary for.

 

Hope this helps.

[ToaKapura1234]

I think he means Velika refuses to acknowledge them as sapient due to personal bias.

[bonesiii]

I think he means Velika refuses to acknowledge them as sapient due to personal bias.

Maybe. That would have to be one heckuva bias though.

[Katuko]

Not necessarily. I've discussed the philosophical aspects of robotic "sentience" with people before, and some simply have the irreconcilable belief that any man-made brain - even if it was a perfect duplicate of the real brain - would lack the "natural" development of a true brain and thus only hold a robotic/artificial being which is not really "alive" any more than a regular robot is alive.So to Velika, MU beings may be eerily like "real people", but he might still consider them an extremely advanced computer simulation of a brain rather than a true brain.That said, Velika does most likely know they are sentient, since he helped build them with partial organics. He also felt the need to carve a grave marker, so he considers them of some worth. I'm just wondering if he considers them "true" life, and whether or not the fact that he helped build them makes him feel superior and able to dismiss them as tools when their purpose is done.

[ToaKapura1234]

I think the grave marker was supposed to be ironic and/or he was bored.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, something like your final clause there is probably the real reason he is okay with killing them (as well as perhaps whatever his endgame was).

 

The main reason I strongly hesitate to accept that idea is that Angonce seemed to instantly recognize sapience. Granted, Angonce isn't a murderer (as far as we know lolz) and just in general seems to be a nicer guy than others, so that also might not be reliable evidence. For all we know, Velika had radically different views from the others.

 

Come to think of it, this might make a good theory as to why he wanted to observe. Maybe he was obsessed with proving that they were NOT remotely sapient despite the GBs' intentions that they be partially sapient, and was driven a little nuts by learning that they did appear to be not just a little but fully sapient. That might actually explain his entire reaction -- maybe the reason the brilliant chessgame he had in mind thrilled him so much is that he might feel that to accomplish that would prove him right?

 

Just thought of that on the fly though so probably wrong.

[Katuko]

Come to think of it, this might make a good theory as to why he wanted to observe. Maybe he was obsessed with proving that they were NOT remotely sapient despite the GBs' intentions that they be partially sapient, and was driven a little nuts by learning that they did appear to be not just a little but fully sapient. That might actually explain his entire reaction -- maybe the reason the brilliant chessgame he had in mind thrilled him so much is that he might feel that to accomplish that would prove him right?

His reaction could also be akin to what happened in Terminator and Matrix and indeed the Geth of the Mass Effect universe: The robots achieved sentience, and the creators become terrified of their creations because they are no longer subservient -- and their metal bodies outfitted with tools and weapons and special powers are more than capable of waging war on humans if necessary.In Terminator and The Matrix, the machines deemed humans "wasteful" and sought to replace them completely. In Mass Effect, the Quarian race saw it as a possibility and started to shut the Geth down -- ironically causing the organic vs synthetic war in the first place because the newly "born" Geth saw themselves as unjustly persecuted.Velika might be somewhere in the stage of going "oh no, we made real beings that could seek to replace us", especially considering that:- the Great Beings were already sidestepped by the Element Lords in some ways- Marendar was created as a fail-safe in case Toa etc. went rouge- certain MU species have already shown dangerous, violent habits of being thieves and killers and warlords- even many of the good-aligned MU beings can kill scores of people if they ever go as bad as some have.If the Great Beings have the ability to look across space and into other dimensions (like "Lifer", who pulled Vezon out of his crazy dimension jumping) they could potentially realize that in some dimensions (like the Toa Empire) even normally good characters have become violent oppressors.I mean, personally looking upon the Skakdi or the Dark Hunters or the Makuta for thousands of years in the core dimension would be plenty of reason to fear the MU inhabitants for Velika, when war is what torn their world asunder in the first place, and it almost destroyed Mata Nui (and Spehrus Magna) as well. Edited August 1, 2013 by Katuko

[bonesiii]

So you're saying maybe Velika would look at Angonce's reaction as understandable but "noobish", that he hadn't yet thought through the consequences of accidentally making tons of species of sapients, and Velika now sees them as a threat? Or at least those who act outside parameters. That's a reasonable explanation too.

[Katuko]

So you're saying maybe Velika would look at Angonce's reaction as understandable but "noobish", that he hadn't yet thought through the consequences of accidentally making tons of species of sapients, and Velika now sees them as a threat? Or at least those who act outside parameters. That's a reasonable explanation too.

Yes, pretty much. Let's say that we are Great Beings, and we want to take a few samples from our giant robot "universe" and see how it's faring. If we pick beings at random:- What is the chance of us picking a being which has been near or at least heard of one or more violent conflicts within the past 10 years?- What is the chance of us picking a being which has participated in one or more violent conflicts or other illegal/immoral activities?- What is the chance of us picking a being which is violent at heart? (Skadki, Dark Hunters, Makuta, etc?)- What is the chance of us picking a being who is distrustful of other species?- What is the chance of finding any being at all which wouldn't tell us "the world almost ended and there's tons of bad people around"?Velika has been hiding out in the MU since its beginnings, he would have had plenty of time to see how it all got dragged through the dirt by the Makuta and other immoral beings. Heck, there's even been Matoran civil war in Metru Nui, which would necessarily have involved many of the named Matoran we know from the early years of the story.