Jump to content

  • Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In   
  • Create Account

Welcome to BZPower!

Hi there, while we hope you enjoy browsing through the site, there's a lot more you can do if you register. The process is easy and you can use your Google, Facebook, or Twitter account to make it even faster. Some perks of joining include:
  • Create your own topics, participate in existing discussions, and vote in polls
  • Show off your creations, stories, art, music, and movies and play member and staff-run games
  • Enter contests to win free LEGO sets and other prizes, and vote to decide the winners
  • Participate in raffles, including exclusive raffles for new members, and win free LEGO sets
  • Send private messages to other members
  • Organize with other members to attend or send your MOCs to LEGO fan events all over the world
  • Much, much more!
Enjoy your visit!


Photo

How many Matoran?

Matoran confused inconsistent contradictory amount

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
37 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Makuta Jester

Makuta Jester
  • Members
  • Lightning Voyager

  • 327 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 02:31 PM

I have had this question bugging me for a long while ever since I decided to replay MNOG1 and that is, how many matoran were on mata nui? On biosector01 they say about 1000. But Ga-koro in MNOG1 and the bohrok chronicles is WAY to small to hold 166 matoran. Not even in MNOG2 is there enough room.  So what is the actual number of matoran on Mata Nui?


  • 0

"The invasion of the universe core is proceeding well, my newest creations are spreading darkness and corruption, and in general, it is good to be alive."
— Mutran, The Mutran Chronicles

 

"And you still haven't answered any of my one-hundred ten questions, or my follow ups."
— Vezon to Trinuma, Destiny War

 

"Another Hafu original!"
— Hafu, Mata Nui Online Game 

 

The biggest sacrifice in bionicle. Its a tie between Matoro giving up his life to save the universe and Hafu knocking down his beloved pieces of nostalgia to save Po-Koro.

 


#2 Offline Pikiru

Pikiru
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 61 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 02:48 PM

I think the official number is 1000, but that most of the Matoran are not seen in MNOG1 just because at the time Lego didn't know how big the villages were going to be (I think they were considering just 12 Matoran per village at that time, though I could be wrong).

 

By MNOG2 they had decided to make the villages bigger to accommodate more Matoran, but they still hadn't decided on 1000 as the official number.

 

I think the canon reason that you never see 166 Matoran in each village is because in MNOG1/MNOG2 you only see select portions of each area, and that most of the Matoran are either off screen but in the villages, or are off somewhere else on Mata Nui.

 

Hope that helps. :)


  • 0

#3 Offline Toatapio Nuva

Toatapio Nuva
  • Members
  • Master of Disintegration Unchained

  • 5,381 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 03:38 PM

Well, the MNOGs are just games and it would kind of a pain to create hundreds of characters for every single Koro, even if most of them remained in the background. The numbers are small due to game and cutscene convenciences.


  • 0

What I think everytime I see this promo picture

pohatu_is_a_wuss.gif

My BZPRPG profiles - Kirgan, Viima, Jarkale, Tuli, Hile, Lai LaiSurina, Khervos, Teede


#4 Offline Sir Kohran

Sir Kohran
  • Members
  • Ice Warrior Defeated

  • 2,930 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 05:25 PM

Initially, there were only as many Matoran as had appeared in the MNOLG. Don't quote me on this, but I think the total number in the game would be around or somewhat above two hundred. I don't believe there was ever pressure on the makers to include over a hundred in each village (which would take a huge amount of work, add very little to the actual plot/events, and be a bit overwhelming for casual fans).

 

At some point in 2002 or very early 2003 it was decided there were just twelve Matoran in each village, hence the very low numbers of MNOLG2. But that was promptly scrapped when the Kohlii match in the movie depicted at least two hundred. Then at some point in the Metru Nui arc, the one thousand figure was settled on and has remained since.

 

I think the smart thing to do when playing the games is to just think of the portrayal of the villages and their inhabitants as a representation rather than the exact reality. Like how all the distances between the locations are extremely short due to clicking through a handful of screens, when they would really have been far bigger.


  • 0

#5 Offline northmarch

northmarch
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 99 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 06:05 PM

All the mnog & mnog2 villages were just scaled down for the sake of the game. Note that none of the villages are large enough to accommodate all the affiliated matoran seen in that game. Although it looks like lomn was going the have the villages more or less unchanged.
  • 0

#6 Offline TakunuvaC01

TakunuvaC01
  • Members
  • Mask of Time Discovered

  • 4,192 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 07:02 PM

I've actually always thought a thousand Matoran was rather small- the scope of Metru Nui seems really large, to me, at least based on the books and pictures in the movie.

 

The sheer size of the chute network, the number of knowledge towers, furnaces, the whole existence of the school system in Ga-Metru- it seems like there should be more than a couple of hundred Matoran in each Koro.

 

I'm sure the same is true, that the size of Metrui Nui is just scaled up for dramatic reasons just like it's scaled down in the games, but it's mildly disappointing for me that the city must be small enough that a thousand Matoran can make it a bustling metropolis.


  • 0

Posted Image


#7 Offline Makuta Matata

Makuta Matata
  • Members
  • Fluidic Master Nuva

  • 1,364 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 07:03 PM

the MNOG games are not canon, so that's probably not a very accurate representation.


  • 0

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


#8 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

Ghabulous Ghoti
  • Members
  • Exo-Armored Toa

  • 765 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 08:36 PM

There may have been a bit less than 1000. There were nearly 1000 when they left Metru Nui, and I kind of doubt that ALL of them survived for the 1000 years or whatever ridiculous length of time it was. In just the MNOG, Kopeke mentions that Jala's troops have been frozen to death.


  • 0

GhotiH.png

 

Add me on Steam: Ghabulous Ghoti ------------------------------- Add me on Nintendo Network/Playstation Network: GhotiH ------------------------------- Add me on 3DS: 1461-6196-0520

Just be sure to tell me that you've added me!

 

Competitive Smash Bros. player! Message me to discuss strategies!


#9 Offline Snubby

Snubby
  • Outstanding BZPower Citizens
  • Armored Protector

  • 300 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 09:04 PM

There were a lot of Ta-Koran guards in the cutscene of the Chronicler's Company defending Kini-Nui from the rahi (Probably doing their guard thing around parts of the island that weren't displayed earlier on in the game) , and in some of the huts in Onu-Koro (and other villages) were blocked off, so there may have been some matoran in there, plus there were probably quite a bit working in the Great Mine and the Lightstone Mine. In some cases, though, there is definitely not enough space to house 1/6 of the entire population, particularly in Ko-Koro and Ta-Koro.     

 

I don't know about MNOG 2 because I haven't played it.


Edited by Mairanui, Aug 04 2013 - 01:07 PM.

  • 0

#10 Offline ShadowWolfHount

ShadowWolfHount
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Members
  • Scavenger

  • 605 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 11:02 PM

I just have to say it, OVER 9000??? :P

But i do think there are 1000 or less because, if you watch Mask of Light there are a lot more Matoran then the MNOG1 and MNOG2. Plus if you think about it, they can't put in a lot of Matoran in MNOG because of obvious reasons. Like VNOG with matoran until the end where they are just coming out of NOWHERE, then when you get to run around where ever you want, there are only the same matoran you seen before (and that troll matoran Garan).

Now with the places, it is like with the Matoran, MNOG have it small but Mask of Light have it big.


Edited by ShadowWolfHount, Aug 03 2013 - 11:06 PM.

  • 0

image.php?u=47115&dateline=1334913320

___________________________________________________________

:voyanui: Find Me On :voyanui: 
Flickr 10.gif MOCpages 10.gif Youtube


#11 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

Ghabulous Ghoti
  • Members
  • Exo-Armored Toa

  • 765 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 11:05 PM

I just have to say it, OVER 9000??? :P

But i do think there are 1000 or less because, if you watch Mask of Light there are a lot more Matoran then the MNOG1 and MNOG2. Plus if you think about it, they can't put in a lot of Matoran in MNOG because of obvious reasons. Like VNOG with matoran until the end where they are just coming out of NOWHERE, then when you get to run around where ever you want, there are only the same matoran you seen before (and that troll matoran Garan).

Well, it's a bit different than that, because MNOG was mostly canon and VNOG was not really canon at all, but same idea.


  • 0

GhotiH.png

 

Add me on Steam: Ghabulous Ghoti ------------------------------- Add me on Nintendo Network/Playstation Network: GhotiH ------------------------------- Add me on 3DS: 1461-6196-0520

Just be sure to tell me that you've added me!

 

Competitive Smash Bros. player! Message me to discuss strategies!


#12 Offline Toa Zaz

Toa Zaz
  • Members
  • Conqueror of the Swarm!

  • 725 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 03 2013 - 11:13 PM

Probably a little under the 1,000 that were on Metru Nui. In Mata Nui Online Game Jaller mentions that some Matoran were killed or something....


  • 0

#13 Offline Toatapio Nuva

Toatapio Nuva
  • Members
  • Master of Disintegration Unchained

  • 5,381 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 12:15 AM

the MNOG games are not canon, so that's probably not a very accurate representation.

 

Correction: They're deemed canon unless contradicted by other canon.

 

In this case, they contradict with the population size of MOL and definately LOMN.

 

So they're non-canon in that sense.

 

I have to agree though, that 1000 is WAY too small for a bustling city. Good thing there's headcanon...


  • 0

What I think everytime I see this promo picture

pohatu_is_a_wuss.gif

My BZPRPG profiles - Kirgan, Viima, Jarkale, Tuli, Hile, Lai LaiSurina, Khervos, Teede


#14 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 01:22 AM

Okay, the main topic question has been answered but I'm seeing a number of misconceptions (and one thing I thought was wrong but am not sure). Just to confirm, the correct (latest) answer is that there were 1000 Matoran on both Metru Nui and Mata Nui.But this was decided in 2004 (or at least first revealed then). MNOG was started in programming before Bionicle even launched and did not consult with the story team, plus the old idea was that the villages would have a very small number of Matoran. This is where both MNOGs' semi-canon nature comes in; they are canon only when they do not contradict other canon sources. So the villages really were much larger than either shows.Essentially, just use your imagination and take them as representative of the styles of the villages, and the key locations shown to be accurate, but the shots that portray the "whole village" are simply non-canon. (This applies to the Bohrok Online Animations as well.)I thought I remembered that 12 was the original, or at least pre-launch number, rather than something chosen later as you say Kohran. Perhaps you're thinking of when Greg revealed that this was the original number. But it's my memory, so I guess a time for a Greg search (but I don't have time now). Regardless, 12 per village was an idea used at some point and this was definitely retconned, eventually ending up at 1000 total.The villages weren't scaled down for game purposes per se, although it's certainly true they would not have been able to afford to portray in-detail 166 living huts and whatever other huts would be needed beyond that, etc. It's just that a final answer on the canon number had not been given and the early idea was small. (Had 1000 total been decided yet they could have just had portions blocked off and never shown. And this actually works for most, especially Le-Koro, but not Ga-Koro, at least in the original.)Re: 1000 = small for Metru Nui -- this comes up all the time, but this runs on the assumption that the skyscrapers are all inhabited and the like. Not the case -- the vast majority are fully automated and wouldn't even be visited by Matoran except for maintenance checks and when something went wrong. Much of this appears to have played a major role in Mata Nui's brain functions, though exactly what role(s) is/are not known, and likely the Matoran did not understand what they all did, but knew the Great Spirit and/or the Great Beings or whonot had ordered all those mechanisms to remain running.Also, there were helper robots that did a lot of the work, at least later, plus some tamed Rahi, etc. Metru Nui's portrayals are not really scaled up, except for the non-canon scenes that did show more than 1000 Matoran at the Coliseum in LoMN.

 

 

Re: "bustling city" -- most of the time it's portrayed as vast areas and entire buildings running on automation with only a handful of Matoran around but sometimes absolutely nobody other than the characters we're following. There would be some areas that would have a higher density, especially chute stations, important work stations, etc. but the same density need not be present in all areas at the same time.

 

I don't know if "bustling metropolis" or the like is ever actually used in canon to describe it or if this came from a fan misconception, an assumption based on looking at the skyline and assuming the skyscrapers were like real-world skyscrapers. If it IS used, then this is relative to the Matoran's perspective. They don't have the world of humans to make comparisons to, and it may also refer as much to the pervasive machinery as to the population, maybe even much more so. (And it could be considered a "close translation.")No, it was exactly 1000. Greg confirmed none died on Mata Nui. Some died in Metru Nui earlier (like Ihu) but were replaced. The Makuta was not interested in killing them; he wanted at first to conquer them and then to trick them into helping him takeover the MU (and then that would be the conquering).The missing Ta-Matoran in MNOG is one of the most often cited apparent misconceptions. It was never confirmed they had died and in fact strongly implied they survived. It was a side quest that the programmers clearly forgot about later on, but at least gave us enough to strongly imply they were rescued by Ko-Matoran "offscreen."Jaller says only that they are missing, and in fact specifically asks Takua to make contact with them. He says he must know what happened to them, implying that he couldn't send any forces to guard the way to the Makuta unless they are brought back. You join the guard, thus getting permission to use the cablecar, and go to Ko-Wahi. There you find a heatstone, and a moment later Kopeke, frozen alive in the ice. You thaw him with the heatstone. Then, after he leads you to his spy-lens tunnel, he tells you that the Ta-Matoran were also frozen alive, like him.His exact quote there is:"The Makuta led them into the ice, and I fear they will not return. Had you not come and saved me, I would be facing a similar fate."The quest unfortunately stops at that point. You should have been able to go back to Ta-Koro and report this answer to Jaller at the very least - yet he continues to ask the question and there's no option given for you to pass on what you learned to him (obviously nonsensical). But I think the programmers gave us enough to use a little logic to figure out what happened to them.First, Kopeke says the same thing happened to him that did to them, and you thawed him just fine. Second, notice that he knows what happened to them, implying he saw it (presumably via his spy system, or possibly in person), and he was heading out to try to rescue them (apparently during a cold snap) and was frozen too. I guess he thought that being a Ko-Matoran, whatever froze them wouldn't get him, but it did (must have been REALLY cold).He does say he fears they will not return, which means death eventually could happen (if the ice they were in fractures), and possibly indicates he's not entirely sure where they are, just the basic area, which might have something to do with why he just stays at the lenses, staring. (On the other hand, the programmers had forgotten about the quest, it seems, at that point.)The idea that a Left Hand would just stand there and do nothing canonically doesn't make sense. He may have a way of sending a signal via reflected light to Ko-Koro and might have already done it just before you enter. Or we could imagine that he expects you to deliver the news to the Ko-Matoran and have them mount a search then. If it's the former, then perhaps this explains why Matoro is outside the village when you arrive, but it's not needed to explain that. Or, he may have hoped to see them walking into view, and waited a bit, not seen them, hurried to the village to make sure the message was delivered, then hurried back to the lens tunnel.Later, a huge number of Ta-Matoran arrive at Kini-Nui. This implies that the Ko-Matoran did find and thaw the entire group of missing guard scouts, and Jaller felt able to do this since the guard's numbers were replenished. Whether Takua would have told him or not is technically irrelevant since he'd find out when they arrived back at Ta-Koro safe and sound.


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 04 2013 - 01:39 AM.

  • 0

#15 Offline ShadowWolfHount

ShadowWolfHount
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Members
  • Scavenger

  • 605 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 03:30 AM

 

I just have to say it, OVER 9000??? :P

But i do think there are 1000 or less because, if you watch Mask of Light there are a lot more Matoran then the MNOG1 and MNOG2. Plus if you think about it, they can't put in a lot of Matoran in MNOG because of obvious reasons. Like VNOG with matoran until the end where they are just coming out of NOWHERE, then when you get to run around where ever you want, there are only the same matoran you seen before (and that troll matoran Garan).

Well, it's a bit different than that, because MNOG was mostly canon and VNOG was not really canon at all, but same idea.

 

I know VNOG was not canon, i was just putting out that there are more Matoran, just that they are not really there, like MNOG having less without any more Matoran and Mask of Light having a lot more.


  • 0

image.php?u=47115&dateline=1334913320

___________________________________________________________

:voyanui: Find Me On :voyanui: 
Flickr 10.gif MOCpages 10.gif Youtube


#16 Offline Sir Kohran

Sir Kohran
  • Members
  • Ice Warrior Defeated

  • 2,930 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 09:27 AM

But this was decided in 2004 (or at least first revealed then). MNOG was started in programming before Bionicle even launched and did not consult with the story team, plus the old idea was that the villages would have a very small number of Matoran.

 

The makers did have access to the story, set and character material (which is why so much of it appears).

 

I thought I remembered that 12 was the original, or at least pre-launch number, rather than something chosen later as you say Kohran. Perhaps you're thinking of when Greg revealed that this was the original number.

 

I am fairly sure what I said is true. Greg said something like "I've heard there's only twelve Matoran in each village" to fan cries of "ridiculously low", "inconsistent with MNOLG", etc. Not too long after, he said this had been ditched as the movie was showing much greater numbers.

 

I highly doubt the MNOLG would've shown so many Matoran if there were definitely no more than a dozen in each village.

 

(Had 1000 total been decided yet they could have just had portions blocked off and never shown. And this actually works for most, especially Le-Koro, but not Ga-Koro, at least in the original.)

 

Or Ko-Koro, where there's only four huts, so each one would have to be shared by forty Matoran. :P

 

I don't know if "bustling metropolis" or the like is ever actually used in canon to describe it or if this came from a fan misconception, an assumption based on looking at the skyline and assuming the skyscrapers were like real-world skyscrapers.

 

In fairness, the movie and comics both portray some huge Matoran crowds tightly packed into small areas, so this misconception arguably results from the makers.

 

The missing Ta-Matoran in MNOG is one of the most often cited apparent misconceptions. It was never confirmed they had died and in fact strongly implied they survived. It was a side quest that the programmers clearly forgot about later on, 

 

Well, its only real purpose was to get the player on the way to Ko-Koro, and in that it works.

 

The quest unfortunately stops at that point. You should have been able to go back to Ta-Koro and report this answer to Jaller at the very least - yet he continues to ask the question and there's no option given for you to pass on what you learned to him (obviously nonsensical).

 

The MNOLG introduces a number of subplots over its course, perhaps more than there was scope for. Some of them are resolved - Kapura learns his secret art of travel, and Taipu gets to travel. Others get a bit of exploration but are then left hanging, either due to time constraints or the makers not being able to work their resolutions into the main plot. The matter of the missing Ta-Matoran is one of them, whilst the full story behind the Koli ball infection is another.

 

It's clear that what made it in to the MNOLG was only a part of what was planned. I wonder what the game might've been like at its full potential.


Edited by Sir Kohran, Aug 04 2013 - 09:41 AM.

  • 0

#17 Offline Toa K

Toa K
  • Members
  • Scavenger Va

  • 637 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 11:39 AM

It's clear that what made it in to the MNOLG was only a part of what was planned. I wonder what the game might've been like at its full potential. 

It would have been too confusing and repelled potential fans possibly causing lego to cancel Bionicle after one year. Just a theory. It would be cool to have now though.


  • 0

Me playing MNOG: Aw poor Taipu. First he has to do double work then he's kidnapped. And poor Maku. She gets quarantined for saving her village.

Me playing MNOG II: CURSE YOU TAIPU! DIE DIE DIE! GRR, STOP SCORING! MACKU, YOU CAN'T BLOCK ANYTHING! YOU'RE FIRED!

The Legend of the Bionicle...Toys. My comedy. Give it a read. It's only $9.99(free if you give a USEFUL comment) and it has free ice cream. End shameless advertising.
(Ice cream does not apply if you live in North America, South America, Asia, Europe, Africa, Australia, or Antartica)

Link


#18 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 07:42 PM

Well, Ko-Koro is shown in a valley, which could easily just be one of many in a local area. I think Ga-Koro is the only one that shows open space around its portrayed border (especially seen with the added fence in the Bohrok animations) with no such possibility. Obviously this is not what the MNOG designers actually intended; I meant that we could imagine it without much alteration to what we could see in the MNOG. :)

 

I don't think finishing the relatively few side quests would have made Bionicle fail, TK. :P Though you're probably kidding, lol. Actually, I'm hard pressed to think of any that were as central enough to get a chapter title as this one (or the like) that were not given clearer resolution. I doubt it would have made much difference to simply have someone say "okay, the Ko-Matoran will go thaw them out now" or something. They just forgot due to being swamped, various issues, and of course we noticed this only in hindsight anyways.


  • 0

#19 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

Ghabulous Ghoti
  • Members
  • Exo-Armored Toa

  • 765 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 08:01 PM

Perhaps there could be more huts on the beach near the lilypads in Ga-Koro?


  • 0

GhotiH.png

 

Add me on Steam: Ghabulous Ghoti ------------------------------- Add me on Nintendo Network/Playstation Network: GhotiH ------------------------------- Add me on 3DS: 1461-6196-0520

Just be sure to tell me that you've added me!

 

Competitive Smash Bros. player! Message me to discuss strategies!


#20 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 08:52 PM

Perhaps there could be more huts on the beach near the lilypads in Ga-Koro?

It would be hard to square with the Bohrok attack, the fence around the village, etc. (unless they just evacced those parts then I guess). Also it would open those areas up to frequent land-Rahi attacks over the thousand years, so I doubt it.


  • 0

#21 Offline Sir Kohran

Sir Kohran
  • Members
  • Ice Warrior Defeated

  • 2,930 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 09:01 PM

Well, Ko-Koro is shown in a valley, which could easily just be one of many in a local area. I think Ga-Koro is the only one that shows open space around its portrayed border (especially seen with the added fence in the Bohrok animations) with no such possibility. Obviously this is not what the MNOG designers actually intended; I meant that we could imagine it without much alteration to what we could see in the MNOG. :)

 

Okay, but what about my other points?


  • 0

#22 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 09:08 PM

 

Well, Ko-Koro is shown in a valley, which could easily just be one of many in a local area. I think Ga-Koro is the only one that shows open space around its portrayed border (especially seen with the added fence in the Bohrok animations) with no such possibility. Obviously this is not what the MNOG designers actually intended; I meant that we could imagine it without much alteration to what we could see in the MNOG. :)

 

Okay, but what about my other points?

What specifically? I don't think I had anything else to add, and checking it over again nothing comes to mind. :shrugs:


  • 0

#23 Offline Sir Kohran

Sir Kohran
  • Members
  • Ice Warrior Defeated

  • 2,930 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 09:20 PM

 

 

Well, Ko-Koro is shown in a valley, which could easily just be one of many in a local area. I think Ga-Koro is the only one that shows open space around its portrayed border (especially seen with the added fence in the Bohrok animations) with no such possibility. Obviously this is not what the MNOG designers actually intended; I meant that we could imagine it without much alteration to what we could see in the MNOG. :)

 

Okay, but what about my other points?

What specifically? I don't think I had anything else to add, and checking it over again nothing comes to mind. :shrugs:

 

 

Whether it was due to the comic/movie makers that Metru Nui seems to have a lot more than a thousand Matoran, and whether the MNOLG makers attempting multiple subplots worked or not.


  • 0

#24 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 04 2013 - 09:55 PM

I'm sure a lot of things contributed to the idea of a larger population including those, yeah. :)

 

As I think I mentioned, I'm having a hard time thinking of any MNOG subplots that really seemed problematic other than this one being forgotten halfway. I think most worked fine.

 

MNOG2, not so much.


  • 0

#25 Offline TakunuvaC01

TakunuvaC01
  • Members
  • Mask of Time Discovered

  • 4,192 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 07 2013 - 04:51 PM

Re: 1000 = small for Metru Nui -- this comes up all the time, but this runs on the assumption that the skyscrapers are all inhabited and the like. Not the case -- the vast majority are fully automated and wouldn't even be visited by Matoran except for maintenance checks and when something went wrong. Much of this appears to have played a major role in Mata Nui's brain functions, though exactly what role(s) is/are not known, and likely the Matoran did not understand what they all did, but knew the Great Spirit and/or the Great Beings or whonot had ordered all those mechanisms to remain running.Also, there were helper robots that did a lot of the work, at least later, plus some tamed Rahi, etc. Metru Nui's portrayals are not really scaled up, except for the non-canon scenes that did show more than 1000 Matoran at the Coliseum in LoMN.

 

 

Re: "bustling city" -- most of the time it's portrayed as vast areas and entire buildings running on automation with only a handful of Matoran around but sometimes absolutely nobody other than the characters we're following. There would be some areas that would have a higher density, especially chute stations, important work stations, etc. but the same density need not be present in all areas at the same time.

 

I don't know if "bustling metropolis" or the like is ever actually used in canon to describe it or if this came from a fan misconception, an assumption based on looking at the skyline and assuming the skyscrapers were like real-world skyscrapers. If it IS used, then this is relative to the Matoran's perspective. They don't have the world of humans to make comparisons to, and it may also refer as much to the pervasive machinery as to the population, maybe even much more so. (And it could be considered a "close translation.")

 

A full discussion about this probably would belong in another thread (and I'm sure it has been the subject of many), but- I did not know most of the city was automated with a minimal staff of caretaker Matoran. Not that I'm doubting you or anything, but I assume this comes from Greg quotes? For most of the Metrus I suppose it makes sense that either everything is automated or a lot has been accomplished over a really long period of time by a small team of workers. (The Sculpture Fields might be an example of the later).

 

The only thing that I still am uneasy about is the Ga-Metru school system, but even that I guess I can explain away if there are enough subjects of study and enough possible degrees that take sufficiently long to achieve. I mean, if you wanted to get a doctorate in every possible subject in this world, it'd take you a very, very long time. :P

 

You're right about the phrase "bustling city", I probably made that up.


  • 0

Posted Image


#26 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Kohrak-Kal Shattered

  • 4,724 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Aug 07 2013 - 07:31 PM

Speaking of Greg quotes...   

8) Wrong. Take a look at the crowd scene in MOL -- how many Matoran are sitting in the arena during the kolhii match? And that is only from three tribes. According to the Metru Nui City book site, there are 1000 Matoran on Metru Nui, so you have to assume roughly the same number on Mata Nui. The old figure of 12 Matoran per village simply can't be accurate when compared to MOL.

 This was in response to bones' earlier quandary. It was once twelve, then upped to 1000. TC01:  

I saw that the BIONICLE Metru Nui Higher Education site states that the Matoran population is only 1000. nIn light of Vakama stating that there were thousands of Matoran on Metru Nui, and Seattle (a city that is actually smaller than Metru Nui) having a population of over 550,000, I find this difficult to reconcile. n Could you explain how an apparently crowded city of Metru Nui's size has such a low population count?  1) I am fine with the 1000 figure, for a couple reasons. One, if you had, say, 50,000 Matoran in Metru Nui, then you would have 250,000 Vahki and you would be tripping over them everywhere you went. Also, you would then have to have 50,000 Matoran on Mata Nui, which certainly is not supported by 2001-2003. The kolhii scene in MOL can support the idea of hundreds of Matoran on the island, but not thousands and thousands.

 *keeps going*   

No, the universe was able to continue running for the same reason you are able to keep breathing while you are asleep -- some things Mata Nui can take care of automatically, simply by existing.

  This is in reference to Mata Nui being asleep and the Matoran gone from his brain.    

1. Who was original meant to awaken the Bohrok swarms?  1) The signal is not sent by an individual, it’s sent automatically

 This implies that there is at least some extra-Matoran automation involved. If it's a theory, it's a well founded one, at least. 

No. Metru Nui is too badly damaged, and Tren Krom would not be able to repair it. Without the systems run from there, even on automatic, the body cannot function.

 So we have systems there that can run on automatic.

 

10) Already too late then. By the time of LOMN, the virus has already infected Mata Nui, he just hasn’t crashed yet ... the same way many computer viruses do not automatically crash your computer the second they infect it.

Edited by fishers64, Aug 07 2013 - 07:40 PM.

  • 0

#27 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 07 2013 - 07:32 PM

Pretty sure that's where it came from, yes. Might have been in the encyclopedia or something too, not sure. Of course, as I mentioned, several of the books make this clear. It's also portrayed that way in some of the animations, where you see tons of machinery all around but nobody else there (although some of that was the Morbuzakh's doing).


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 07 2013 - 07:34 PM.

  • 0

#28 Offline Toa Zaz

Toa Zaz
  • Members
  • Conqueror of the Swarm!

  • 725 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 08 2013 - 04:43 PM

The problem is transitioning from a crowded, populated urban area to a much more open setting, and expecting us to believe that both are roughly the same size and house the same number of Matoran is absurd. No number would make much sense for either of them.


  • 0

#29 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 08 2013 - 04:58 PM

The problem is transitioning from a crowded, populated urban area to a much more open setting, and expecting us to believe that both are roughly the same size and house the same number of Matoran is absurd. No number would make much sense for either of them.

Why not?

 

I agree there's a perception problem here. Greg, I think, implied it in one of those quotes in fishers' post. Any larger number would feel better for Metru Nui, but worse for Mata Nui. Yet, this is as far as I can tell not based on actual story logic but just "feeling". And it's hard to see any way around it. As Greg pointed out in that quote, if you up the number significantly, Mata Nui would feel way too crowded, and "villages" becomes hard to justify.

 

And again, it was not, as an island overall, crowded. Calling it that begs the question -- you assume it's crowded to argue for a larger number, but it could only be crowded if the larger number was already canon and it isn't. There could be crowded areas (and it's a much smaller island than Mata Nui so technically more dense, though nowhere near crowded overall), and the high density of machinery, robotics, etc. compared to the wild Mata Nui is obviously a factor. But in population, no, it just isn't.

 

For 2004-2008, this was mysterious to us (but that's fine; Bionicle intentionally does mystery). Now we know why -- all that machinery (well, a lot of it anyways) is part of the Great Spirit's brain. So I really don't see how we can now in hindsight call it absurd. It makes sense; and you really could only call it absurd earlier if you ignored that it was an intentional mystery. Now we know it was a clue to a greater mystery as well -- what Mata Nui (being) is. :)


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 08 2013 - 04:59 PM.

  • 0

#30 Offline SarracenianKaijin

SarracenianKaijin
  • Members
  • Toa

  • 190 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 09 2013 - 05:51 AM

 

I agree there's a perception problem here. Greg, I think, implied it in one of those quotes in fishers' post. Any larger number would feel better for Metru Nui, but worse for Mata Nui. Yet, this is as far as I can tell not based on actual story logic but just "feeling". And it's hard to see any way around it. As Greg pointed out in that quote, if you up the number significantly, Mata Nui would feel way too crowded, and "villages" becomes hard to justify.

 

And again, it was not, as an island overall, crowded. Calling it that begs the question -- you assume it's crowded to argue for a larger number, but it could only be crowded if the larger number was already canon and it isn't. There could be crowded areas (and it's a much smaller island than Mata Nui so technically more dense, though nowhere near crowded overall), and the high density of machinery, robotics, etc. compared to the wild Mata Nui is obviously a factor. But in population, no, it just isn't.

 

For 2004-2008, this was mysterious to us (but that's fine; Bionicle intentionally does mystery). Now we know why -- all that machinery (well, a lot of it anyways) is part of the Great Spirit's brain. So I really don't see how we can now in hindsight call it absurd. It makes sense; and you really could only call it absurd earlier if you ignored that it was an intentional mystery. Now we know it was a clue to a greater mystery as well -- what Mata Nui (being) is. :)

 

Large advanced cities are built because there are a lot of people.


  • 0

hereheis.gif

 

--------------

 

Reach Heaven by Violence.

 

And while you are at it, see Bionicle characters as Magical Girls.


#31 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 09 2013 - 09:39 AM

Large advanced cities are built because there are a lot of people.

Why do you mention this? Large cities in real life aren't built as part of the brains of giant robots... :lookaround:

 

Although large factories that are largely automated and similar such things do exist now.


  • 0

#32 Offline SarracenianKaijin

SarracenianKaijin
  • Members
  • Toa

  • 190 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 10 2013 - 02:44 AM

 

Why do you mention this? Large cities in real life aren't built as part of the brains of giant robots... :lookaround:

 

I fail to see how that justifies the ludicrous number of thousand people.


  • 0

hereheis.gif

 

--------------

 

Reach Heaven by Violence.

 

And while you are at it, see Bionicle characters as Magical Girls.


#33 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Aug 10 2013 - 04:19 AM

Why do you mention this? Large cities in real life aren't built as part of the brains of giant robots... :lookaround:

I fail to see how that justifies the ludicrous number of thousand people.

This was covered in above posts; if it was much more than that it would feel like too many for Mata Nui. :) But what number would you suggest, if you disagree? And why?

 

BTW, same pet peeve with "ludicrous" basically as with "ridiculous". If there's anything life has taught me, it's that two different people can find exactly opposite things ludicrous. So one saying it's so doesn't make it so for others (necessarily), or even prove that the one who said it is forced by their tastes absolutely to see it that way (a change in perspective may help avoid it). The question is whether it can make story sense.

 

And one thousand people can work if that's all that's needed to keep the machinery in good repair, with the help of robots, etc. It's definitely a very surprising number, but surprising doesn't mean "bad". Can actually be good. Also, with protodermis I suspect there are molecular repair mechanisms that keep things in far greater repair than the equivalent with simple normal matter, plus Mata Nui himself played a major role in keeping things running while awake, ironically. As long as the number of things breaking down each day is significantly less than a thousand, it can work. (Plus Metru Nui is just one location in the entire vehicle.)

 

This is especially so if my theory about the secret repair robots and repair skyscrapers throughout the MU is right (and it seems necessary IMO to explain how Matoran could do the maintenance job for the entire robot), so the workforce number may even be much higher than what the Matoran themselves know. Keeping just those few skyscrapers going could potentially keep the entire universe operating, even just in Metru Nui, so most Matoran could be freed up to have other jobs devoted to taking care of their own population, Rahi, etc.


  • 0

#34 Offline SarracenianKaijin

SarracenianKaijin
  • Members
  • Toa

  • 190 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 10 2013 - 04:34 AM

Fine and tandy until you realize the place is supposed to be a metropolis and a technological paradise, and that nobody knows this is thing is a giant robot brain whatever.

 

And then we take account the sheer size of Mata Nui island, and here we have a problem.


  • 0

hereheis.gif

 

--------------

 

Reach Heaven by Violence.

 

And while you are at it, see Bionicle characters as Magical Girls.


#35 Offline fishers64

fishers64
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Outstanding BZP Citizens
  • Kohrak-Kal Shattered

  • 4,724 posts
  •   Outstanding BZPower Citizen

Posted Aug 10 2013 - 04:40 PM

Fine and tandy until you realize the place is supposed to be a metropolis and a technological paradise, and that nobody knows this is thing is a giant robot brain whatever.

 

And then we take account the sheer size of Mata Nui island, and here we have a problem.

 

It's not like the Matoran have ever seen a real world human city. 

 

And a thousand people spread out over a primitive island isn't unrealistic. 


  • 0

#36 Offline Makuta Jester

Makuta Jester
  • Members
  • Lightning Voyager

  • 327 posts
  •  

Posted Aug 10 2013 - 05:27 PM

Just to make sure that everyone is clear with this, the offical Size of Mata-Nui (Island) is 303.91 miles long and 151.53 miles wide.

Metru-Nui is 65 times smaller(!) 40.51 miles long and 20.43 miles wide.

http://biosector01.c...u_Nui#Landscape

 http://biosector01.c...tion)#Landscape

New York State is 468 square miles with a population of 8.254 Million people(!)

Even though I agree that the island of Mata Nui did not have 8 million inhabitants, I am just trying to put it in a little bit of a perspective.


  • 0

"The invasion of the universe core is proceeding well, my newest creations are spreading darkness and corruption, and in general, it is good to be alive."
— Mutran, The Mutran Chronicles

 

"And you still haven't answered any of my one-hundred ten questions, or my follow ups."
— Vezon to Trinuma, Destiny War

 

"Another Hafu original!"
— Hafu, Mata Nui Online Game 

 

The biggest sacrifice in bionicle. Its a tie between Matoro giving up his life to save the universe and Hafu knocking down his beloved pieces of nostalgia to save Po-Koro.

 


#37 Online skratchR

skratchR
  • Members
  • Turaga

  • 66 posts
  •  

Posted Jan 24 2014 - 02:44 PM

I have had this question bugging me for a long while ever since I decided to replay MNOG1 and that is, how many matoran were on mata nui? On biosector01 they say about 1000. But Ga-koro in MNOG1 and the bohrok chronicles is WAY to small to hold 166 matoran. Not even in MNOG2 is there enough room.  So what is the actual number of matoran on Mata Nui?

Ah, but there are some ga-matoran outside of ga-koro, like there are some ko-koronans in the wastes (hermit) or some po-koronans in the desert (mahi herder)


I've actually always thought a thousand Matoran was rather small- the scope of Metru Nui seems really large, to me, at least based on the books and pictures in the movie.

 

The sheer size of the chute network, the number of knowledge towers, furnaces, the whole existence of the school system in Ga-Metru- it seems like there should be more than a couple of hundred Matoran in each Koro.

 

I'm sure the same is true, that the size of Metrui Nui is just scaled up for dramatic reasons just like it's scaled down in the games, but it's mildly disappointing for me that the city must be small enough that a thousand Matoran can make it a bustling metropolis.

 

A thousand matoran living inside, but also several rahi, foreign visiting matoran, a turaga, several toa (in the good days), lots of vahki, all the matoran who disappeared or died before the great cataclysm and a number of other species, who did not live there but had business there. Oh, and a makuta.

 

Remember that Metru nui was about 1/10th 1/65th of Mata nui.


the MNOG games are not canon, so that's probably not a very accurate representation.

 

Many people (I for one) consider the MNOG to be the canonest piece of story in 2001. We may be wrong, but it is really epic. I think the representations of all the villages, the kini nui, etc. are the exact ones, and all the size problems have an explaination.

 

There may have been only that small number of matoran on-screen, but there may have been many others offscreen, in locked huts or something. Plus not all the matoran have to live in koros.


Fine and tandy until you realize the place is supposed to be a metropolis and a technological paradise, and that nobody knows this is thing is a giant robot brain whatever.

 

And then we take account the sheer size of Mata Nui island, and here we have a problem.

No, they actually know that they live in a robot, but forget in the matoran spheres. Remember the makuta were good guys in an origin, and they helped the matoran. They also knew thet they lived in a giant robot. Why would not tell their matoran friends that they lived in a robot? Why not tell them that if they stopped working they would all die because the robot would stop working?


Edited by skratchR, Jan 24 2014 - 02:46 PM.

  • 0

#38 Offline bonesiii

bonesiii
  • Premier Member
  • Premier Forum Leaders
  • Perpetual Master of Reference

  • 18,559 posts
  •   BZP Leader

Posted Jan 24 2014 - 05:55 PM

scratch, please do not post in topics that have been inactive for 60 days or more. January back to August is well over.

 

Since you were so kind as to not just spam-revive as most such posts are ( :P), I'll try to clarify a few story points. If you have further questions about it you want to discuss in S&T feel free to make a new topic those things specifically, or you could PM me if that seems better. But rules say revived topics get closed so yeah.

 

1) The number of Matoran per Mata Nui village living outside their Koro proper is probably less than five, which certainly isn't enough to affect the point made in that quote. You probably already know this and it was mentioned in other posts but just FTR, the portrayals of the villages in the MNOGs were never meant to show every hut canonically existing there. There are probably not even more than two in most villages living outside them, because the island was terrorized for a thousand years by infected Rahi -- it was too dangerous out there. I'm not even 100% sure (this is just off the top of my head) that any of them lived outside what they considered to be part of the village.

 

2) Canon isn't determined by fans, but regardless, the statement you quoted there is only half-right. The MNOGs are "canon unless contradicted elsewhere." There are a few points I would consider MNOG more reliable on than other canon, even. One that came up in another current topic, that I posted about the other day, is the placement of Kini-Nui; it makes much more sense in MNOG than the map shown on BS01 (not sure where that map came from, but I have found one image putting it at that point in an old board game). The MNOG placement fits its own portrayal of the trip to it from Ga-Koro better, as well as MOL's trip to it. The term BS01 uses in general for what it is, is "semi-canon."

 

3) Again just to be clear, the MNOG village portayals are definitely not the exact ones. You're free to "headcanon" it that way, but that's not LEGO's idea. Note that when MNOG 1 was being planned, it was going to be; there were going to be just around 12 Matoran per village. But they changed their minds later.

 

4) The Matoran did not know they were inside a giant robot. It was intentionally kept a secret from them by the Great Beings. Likely reasons for it have already been talked about in S&T, including some posts in the past month I believe, though I don't offhand recall which topic specifically. If you look through the currently alive ones (within past 60 days) you will probably find it, with a detailed post from me on it.

 

5) The Makuta did find it out, yes, but only at a time when enough of them had grown corrupt, and angered by the Matoran's neglecting to give them credit for the ways they had helped out the Matoran (as they saw it... a lot of that help was making dangerous Rahi, which had a good role, to keep Matoran away from important functions they might break, but they didn't understand that), instead giving all the credit to Mata Nui. Teridax, Mutran, and their ilk were jealous of Mata Nui and had given into selfish ambition by that time. Miserix might have done that if he'd had time and opportunity, but his takedown happened too quickly. I think Mutran didn't even tell him directly, though don't quote me on that last bit. I do know Mutran first told Teridax.

 

6) To:

 

Why not tell them that if they stopped working they would all die because the robot would stop working?

That certainly might have put a much earlier stop to the Matoran Civil War, sure, though they didn't know it yet at that time. They could have revealed it later to help prevent such a war. But you have to consider the law of unintended consequences.

 

Once that cat's out of the bag there's no going back (not so far as the Makuta can control, anyways... the Order might do a Time Slip... in fact perhaps that might be part of why they DID the Time Slip... but maybe not). The greedy Makuta would lose their tactical advantage from holding onto that vital secret. Suddenly instead of just the Barraki using the idea Teridax is going for, you might have "upstarts" (as he called them in 2007) popping up all over the place competing for the same idea. Not to mention the Matoran's loyalty to Mata Nui is only going to solidify and the Makuta are trying to steal that loyalty. They just have no motivation to reveal it.

 

And Teridax had "solved" the problem of the Civil War anyways. He sent a clear signal that if they did it again, there would be another genocide to punish the perpetrators. And not long after that he was assigned as the "Makuta of Metru Nui" so now he's a more constant presence there. You can see how that would have a stabilizing effect, though not in a nice way at all.

 

Anywho, to uphold the rule, revived topic closed. :)


  • 0




0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users