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What Decides What Mask Power a Toa Gets?


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#1 Offline VakamaMetruNui

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Posted Aug 10 2013 - 07:31 PM

Hello everyone, man I haven't been here in a while.

 

Anyways that's not the point of this topic. My question is, what decides what mask power a Toa gets? For example, what happened for Vakama to get a Mask of Concealment? I know on BS01 it says Toa Power transforms Matoran and Noble masks into Great masks, but what decides the power? Surely Toa Power can't sense the shape of the mask, and Krakua's Hau-shaped Suletu would disprove that theory. And I don't think it would matter on what disks were used to make that Matoran mask for two reasons.

 

1. The power leaks out of the mask after it is made, making it powerless, so it really isn't a Huna anymore is it, even if it does have the shape.

 

2. If they were making Matoran masks, why would they bother using the proper disks? Seems like a waste of material if you ask me. Juts carve it in the correct shape and call it a day.

 

So what are your guys' thoughts? I look forward to your ideas.

 

VMN


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#2 Offline Pirgah

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Posted Aug 10 2013 - 09:12 PM

Well, since Matoran still need to wear Kanohi to function, I would imagine that even though the power leaks out from a Kanohi made of level 6 or less Kanoka, some traces of the Kanohi's power still remains (If something conflicts this, please let me know). When Toa Power is triggered within the Matoran via Toa Stone or another source, it raises the residual power in the Kanohi up to a Great Mask level. This would explain why they bother using the proper disks, though I would imagine they would anyway, as level 6 and under Kanoka are fairly common, and the Ta-Matoran craftsmen would not want their creations to be anything less than perfect.


Edited by Pirgah, Aug 10 2013 - 10:38 PM.

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#3 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Aug 10 2013 - 10:04 PM

When a Matoran is transformed into a Toa, their Great Kanohi's power is just the power it would have had had it been forged from a Level 8 Kanoka to begin with. So for example, Vakama's powerless Huna became a Great Huna, while Krakua's powerless Suletu (probably in the shape of a Great Hau to begin with) became a Great Suletu.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Aug 10 2013 - 10:05 PM.

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#4 Offline XONAR

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Posted Aug 10 2013 - 10:08 PM

Yeah, what Pirgah said pretty much sums it up. 

 

Vakama was wearing a Mask of Concealment  even when he was a Matoran. It became a Great Huna when Vakama was transformed. 

 

All Matoran have the potential to become Toa, but only ones are destined to become Toa. Thus all masks are made with the potential to become Great Masks if the wearer were to become a Toa. It wouldn't make sense for so many different reasons to only give destined Matoran masks with powers, so they're all made that way.

 

Far more importantly, that power, minuscule or not, is needed to sustain a Matoran's life. Powerless masks are just as useful as wearing no mask at all. Remember that if a Matoran's mask is removed, they become weakened, soon fall into a coma, and eventually die if their mask is not put back on. 


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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 04:06 AM

I'm going to reply a little out of order to start at the root of your reasoning. :) And sorry that some of this repeats what the other posts say, just wanna be crystal clear what I mean in-context. ^_^

 

If they were making Matoran masks, why would they bother using the proper disks?

Because you know some of your customers might be destined to be Toa, and upon finding out they're stuck with the wrong shape, trade it in for one made by a maskmaker who isn't lazy, and probably use their prestige as a Toa to warn people not to buy from you. And because being an honorable Matoran you value doing things right even if it means you can't cut certain corners. :)

 

Note: I'm here making an assumption that we can't be certain of. Read on. 

Seems like a waste of material if you ask me. Juts carve it in the correct shape and call it a day.

This line seems to contradict the above. If you're carving it in a shape that doesn't go with the power of the disk you used, it's not the correct shape, right?

 

You are right to wonder as many have before whether it's a waste of material to mix powers, since half the mask of each disk disappears when two are mixed into one. But don't forget that often mixed powers are considered more useful for Toa to wear (and by mixing the right shape for Matoran, you're doing so for "potential future Toa"). :) So the benefit outweighs the loss. And presumably Mata Nui somehow makes new mass somewhere in the universe to counteract the loss.

 

The power leaks out of the mask after it is made, making it powerless, so it really isn't a Huna anymore is it, even if it does have the shape.

This line requires us to make an assumption with no evidence for it, that the function of a power's programming in a disk is deleted just because the energy-fuel for it is drained. But there is no evidence for that assumption. If I make a car, then drain its fuel tank, it is still a car. Just not one that will run in that state. Later when I refill the tank, it won't magically change into an airplane. :P

 

Of course, transformations of power are certainly possible in Bionicle. But there's no evidence it happens in this situation.

 

Surely Toa Power can't sense the shape of the mask

Why not? Protodermis is a super-advanced molecule that can run incredible powers without glitching, and with mental control! Being Toa-ized even gives you the body shape that you "think of as a Toa". Surely adding the right power to a mask that had (hypothetically) no power identity at all, based on the shape, would be very possible. Note that for reasons explained above, adding the power's function programming is not needed at this point. However, the protodermis apparently does have to know the shapes -- not even just the Matoran, but the molecules themselves.

 

I say this because the Toa Metru did not know the powers that went with their shapes, yet the Matoran versions of their shapes (or in Vakama's case, a Matoran version of the Noble shape) were transformed into the proper Great Shapes. Also, when they became Turaga the masks changed into the proper Noble shapes.

 

Therefore, yes, "Toa Power" (or protodermis's programming that runs during the transformation) surely can sense the shape of the mask (that would be easy) and even change the shape to the proper level-shape.

 

However, we don't know what the rules are for this, beyond what we've seen actually happen in-story. For example, in my response to the first quote above, what if protodermis would correct a bad maskmaker's mistake, changing the shape to match the power it already had? We can't rule this out per se. But it's also possible it is just automatically changing to the power-level version of whatever shape it detects with no check for power at all (due to reasons explained below). 

Krakua's Hau-shaped Suletu would disprove that theory.

Not sure if it was ever given a reason in that specific case, but for Norik we were told that there was a tradition of having masks in the "wrong" shapes to honor elite Toa (who would know the powers well enough to not need to worry about the right shapes), by associating them with the masks of past heroes. So what is normally considered dangerously confusing for novice Toa is a high honor for them. (This is why I lean against protodermis automatically "fixing" shapes that are "wrong.")

 

Whether this is the case for Krakua I don't know. Three main possibilities come to mind:

 

1) The Order wanted him to have the honor that elite Toa do, intended to train him very well, sense great potential, etc.

 

2) If he got his mask from a corner-cutting maskmaker who did assume it didn't matter, and if protodermis would not correct the shape in that instance, he might be someone suffering from that as in the beginning of my reply.

 

3) The answer I suspect is for psychological and safety reasons -- if enemies see that he's wearing a Suletu, they'll likely consciously brace themselves for a mental invasion, possibly preventing him from learning what he needs to know (such as by concentrating on one thought to the exclusion of all else), and they might realize it means he's open to attack. But since they see a Hau, they might decide it's not worth shooting at him while he's watching them, and also fail to prevent mind-reading.

 

 

 

I would imagine that even though the power leaks out from a Kanohi made of level 6 or less Kanoka, some traces of the Kanohi's power still remains (If something conflicts this, please let me know).

Technically that answer could work, but it is also assuming that "the power" is just like a single substance. Every single molecule in the mask, whether it's charged up with "fuel" to Great or totally drained, has the programming to run the power. So I wouldn't use "trace" to describe that, really.

 

 

 

Note also that due to Vakama being a very good maskmaker and yet not knowing which powers went with the six Toa Metru shapes, it appears that maskmakers themselves might not always be the ones who actually mix the disks that are used in all cases. A Diskmaker could handle that, and (for example, as I have theorized before) stamp on a relief-carving of the basic shape-label (similar to the image of the Vahi on the Disk of Time), and maskmakers like Vakama would just go off of that, possibly putting their own signature twist on the shape (this latter bit is at least confirmed in Nuhrii's case). But somewhere along the line, the right mixture would have to be made.

 

Also note that prior to the invention of Kanoka disks they would likely have still mixed the right power, they just wouldn't be able to use disks to test that they got it right (but maybe they did let it solidify into some "pre-mask" solid shape first and test it then in the same way; unknown).


Edited by bonesiii, Aug 11 2013 - 04:21 AM.

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#6 Offline VakamaMetruNui

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 01:29 PM

[font="calibri;"]That makes sense as far as making the mask with the proper disks, thanks for that insight :)[/font]

 

[font="calibri;"]This line requires us to make an assumption with no evidence for it, that the function of a power's programming in a disk is deleted just because the energy-fuel for it is drained. But there is no evidence for that assumption. If I make a car, then drain its fuel tank, it is still a car. Just not one that will run in that state. Later when I refill the tank, it won't magically change into an airplane. :P[/font]

 

 

[font="calibri;"]Every single molecule in the mask, whether it's charged up with "fuel" to Great or totally drained, has the programming to run the power.[/font]

 

 

[font="calibri;"]So powerless masks would have an imprint of sorts of the power they were made with? That would actually make a lot of sense since we know masks hold an imprint of a being for a while, example of course being how they revived Jaller.[/font]

 

[font="calibri;"] [/font]

[font="calibri;"]Why not? Protodermis is a super-advanced molecule that can run incredible powers without glitching, and with mental control! Being Toa-ized even gives you the body shape that you "think of as a Toa". Surely adding the right power to a mask that had (hypothetically) no power identity at all, based on the shape, would be very possible. Note that for reasons explained above, adding the power's function programming is not needed at this point. However, the protodermis apparently does have to know the shapes -- not even just the Matoran, but the molecules themselves.[/font]

 

[font="calibri;"]I say this because the Toa Metru did not know the powers that went with their shapes, yet the Matoran versions of their shapes (or in Vakama's case, a Matoran version of the Noble shape) were transformed into the proper Great Shapes. Also, when they became Turaga the masks changed into the proper Noble shapes.[/font]

 

[font="calibri;"]Therefore, yes, "Toa Power" (or protodermis's programming that runs during the transformation) surely can sense the shape of the mask (that would be easy) and even change the shape to the proper level-shape.[/font]

 

 

[font="calibri;"]I just have two problems with this idea.[/font]

 

[font="calibri;"]1. Wouldn’t the mask designs of had to been set when the MU was created? It is my understanding the Matoran standardized the mask designs sometime later. It would seem that the designs would have had to been programmed into the Toa Power from the start, but I could be wrong on one or both of those things.[/font]

 

 

[font="calibri;"]2. Wouldn't the Toa Power also be thrown off by a slightly different shaped mask, such as Lhikan's, or Nuju's or any of Nuhrii's? Or would you surmise it is "smart" enough to account for minor differences?[/font]

[font="calibri;"] [/font]

 

3) The answer I suspect is for psychological and safety reasons -- if enemies see that he's wearing a Suletu, they'll likely consciously brace themselves for a mental invasion, possibly preventing him from learning what he needs to know (such as by concentrating on one thought to the exclusion of all else), and they might realize it means he's open to attack. But since they see a Hau, they might decide it's not worth shooting at him while he's watching them, and also fail to prevent mind-reading.

 

So if this is the case, are you saying Krakua was transformed with his Suletu, or the Order gave it to him? Because BS01 says that Krakua had a Suletu as a Matoran, but they could just be assuming that. Also, off topic but:

 

I say this because the Toa Metru did not know the powers that went with their shapes, yet the Matoran versions of their shapes (or in Vakama's case, a Matoran version of the Noble shape) were transformed into the proper Great Shapes. Also, when they became Turaga the masks changed into the proper Noble shapes.

 

BS01 says that Vakama's mask was the Great version of a Huna, although I also thought for a while that he wore a Noble version, as it does have some similarites to it. Upon closer examination however, when you compare it with the Great version, especially the movie version, it has more in common with the Great version than the Noble version, but that's just my two cents on the matter :P

 

VMN


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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 05:10 PM

[font="calibri;"]So powerless masks would have an imprint of sorts of the power they were made with? That would actually make a lot of sense since we know masks hold an imprint of a being for a while, example of course being how they revived Jaller.[/font]

Well, I have a similar reaction to that as with Pirgah's choice of 'trace'. It can work as an explanation. But the imprint in the example you give will fade over time; this does not. I really think "programming" is the best word choice for it. Like if you switch off a computer, all the hard-disk data is still equally there as before.

 

Imprint would imply something more like RAM, which would fade over time after turned off.

 

But it's semantics.

 

[font="calibri;"]1. Wouldn’t the mask designs of had to been set when the MU was created?[/font]

I'm curious why you described this as a problem? The GBs created the Matoran, and gave them masks. The vast majority did not die out and get replaced by new generations (and the new ones would look just like the originals). So isn't it obvious that all the original mask shapes had to be set then?

 

The Matoran were able to define new shapes when new useful power mixtures were discovered (given that these are infinite, we cannot expect the GBs to have discovered them all originally), but this is not mutually exclusive with the original group being set at the start, any more than an operating system receiving updates is exclusive with buying it in an originally set form.

 

[font="calibri;"]It is my understanding the Matoran standardized the mask designs sometime later.[/font]

Really? Do you happen to remember what gave you that idea? I don't recall hearing anything like that. Either way, I don't see how it would be a problem. The protodermis would have to be learning all the new shapes Matoran came up with just as much as it learned the original shapes. When they were established is irrelevant, is it not?

 

It would seem that the designs would have had to been programmed into the Toa Power from the start, but I could be wrong on one or both of those things.

You may have missed the point about the Matoran taking the shape of Toa bodies that they mentally think of as Toa and other such things. Clearly the protodermis can learn from their minds (and as I pointed out, nearly every power has a mental component, so surely this is not surprising!). There's no reason to think it would be ignorant of everything except what the GBs programmed in at the start. :) With the Jaller example, it even seems to have sensed "symbolic significance due to honoring a hero" or at least "Great shape fits this personality better than Noble" or something. Also consider that destiny likely brilliantly adapts around freewill choices they make, as it did in getting the Makuta to fulfill his role in the Reformation completely against his will.

 

[font="calibri;"]Wouldn't the Toa Power also be thrown off by a slightly different shaped mask, such as Lhikan's, or Nuju's or any of Nuhrii's? Or would you surmise it is "smart" enough to account for minor differences?[/font]

Given that Lhikan was a Matoran and had that stylized mask as a Toa, logically it must not be thrown by such things, no. Unless of course he had a different mask as Matoran (I have presumed he had the same so that I could show an "image" of him as Matoran in my retelling but we can't assume this), and had that one specially carved, already in Great form, by a maskmaker. Not sure if we know.

 

Either way, it has accounted for things more nuanced than this, like different Toa body shapes, so surely it could handle this, yes.

 

 

I don't know about the Suletu. Given that it's the Order, maybe they could "hack" it to make it reshape itself, but it's not necessary. They could just reforge the same mask. Or the protodermis might have sensed this similar to Jaller's incident and done it itself.

 

 

And actually, Vakama's Matoran mask is clearly much closer to the Noble, just with a shorter beard. See these images:

 

http://biosector01.c...kama_Kanohi.PNG

http://biosector01.c...raga_Vakama.png

http://www.brickshel..._by_visions.png

http://biosector01.c...Kanohi_Huna.png

 

Every defining feature of the Noble is there (the top-back gap, smooth forehead and back-sides, the 'sideburns', horizontal lines over the mouth, and protruding beard type shape, and in the movie version, eyebrows), while only the round parts on the side are shared with Great's unique points (and that's a general Metru Nui stylization thing seen on many masks including Dume's Noble Kiril). I'm not sure what quote you're thinking of from BS01 but it is likely either referring to the Toa form, or making an assumption since all five of the others as Matoran wore Great-like forms. I have noticed that few people ever seem to have noticed this about Vakama (at least that they've posted here).

 

And given that this is the movie version (there is no other portrayal of Matoran Vakama), I don't understand your final sentence at all. :P


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#8 Offline All Or None

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 06:57 PM

@bonseiii

Regarding the imprint, he may be speaking of a physical imprint in the material itself, which wouldn't necessarily fade, rather than an energy imprint.

 

@VakamaMetruNui

I think I read or heard somewhere that the beings in the Matoran Universe are able to reshape things with their minds, at least under certain conditions. I believe it was said to explain why Lhikan's mask changed shape after being put on Jala. It's not hard to imagine that this is related to masks changing shape as they change power level, rather than the shape change being an innate property.


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#9 Offline VakamaMetruNui

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 07:18 PM

I'm curious why you described this as a problem? The GBs created the Matoran, and gave them masks. The vast majority did not die out and get replaced by new generations (and the new ones would look just like the originals). So isn't it obvious that all the original mask shapes had to be set then?

 

 

I guess I figured that maybe the Great Beings did some designs, although as I type this it doesn't make any sense :P Why I thought that the Matoran standaridzed mask shapes was this line on the Kanohi page on BS01:

 

They can be in any shape or form, but throughout the Matoran Universe, mask makers have adopted specific shapes for certain powers, in order to avoid confusion if a Toa is in dire need of a mask.

 

 

That would imply Matoran mask makers in my mind, but that could just be me. I guess it's also vague enough that it could mean they just copied what the Great Beings set up.

 

But other than that, your explanations make a lot of sense. Basically, Protodermis is a mystical object that can do a lot of things :) And yeah, I missed your point about the whole Toa armor thing, my fault on that. Makes sense now.

 

Also, about Vakama, I do agree now looking at it that the general look of it does seem a bit more Noble than Great. One of the things that was throwing me off I guess was that he had an actual "mouth", compared to the "electricity mouth" the Noble does. Also the Huna page is where I read about it being a Great mask, and not a Noble mask: http://biosector01.c.../index.php/Huna As you can see, it clearly lists Sarda and Balta as having Great-shaped versions, as we know they clearly do, and Vakama is there as well. Where Macku and Tehutti are listed as having Noble-shaped versions, which we know they clearly do. Anyways, the wiki could still be wrong. Also, why my last sentence in my last post didn't make sense was because I meant the movie version of Vakama's mask as a Toa, not Vakama's mask as a Matoran :)

 

Edit:

Regarding the imprint, he may be speaking of a physical imprint in the material itself, which wouldn't necessarily fade, rather than an energy imprint.

No, I just meant that the technology would be similar. If it could imprint the life force of a being, it wasn't a stretch to say that the mask retains the power it was carved with in its molecules. Just wanted to clear that up :)

 

VMN


Edited by VakamaMetruNui, Aug 11 2013 - 07:24 PM.

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#10 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 11 2013 - 08:55 PM

I just thought that meant that the maskmakers agreed not to deviate from the patterns already established by the GBs, since they were capable of doing so. :shrugs:

 

Let's point out here that the Toa Mata went into their canisters 100,000 years ago, in the same year GBs were last in the MU, and had normal styles of masks when they awoke, apparently, compared to the Matoran on the island etc. I guess it would come down to how later is "later" (we don't know how long the construction of the MU took). In any event, it still stands that protodermis apparently has to learn any new shapes Matoran come up with so yeah.

 

Noted to your other clarifications. Yeah, I think in my retelling I may have mentioned that Vakama's mask was part of a new trend among maskmakers to have Matoran masks that blurred the lines intentionally between Great and Noble levels, to indicate that it's neither. I forget how I worded it but I'll remember to look for it whenever I proofread the whole thing.


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#11 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Aug 15 2013 - 04:06 PM

Hello everyone, man I haven't been here in a while.

 

Anyways that's not the point of this topic. My question is, what decides what mask power a Toa gets? For example, what happened for Vakama to get a Mask of Concealment? I know on BS01 it says Toa Power transforms Matoran and Noble masks into Great masks, but what decides the power? Surely Toa Power can't sense the shape of the mask, and Krakua's Hau-shaped Suletu would disprove that theory. And I don't think it would matter on what disks were used to make that Matoran mask for two reasons.

 

1. The power leaks out of the mask after it is made, making it powerless, so it really isn't a Huna anymore is it, even if it does have the shape.

 

2. If they were making Matoran masks, why would they bother using the proper disks? Seems like a waste of material if you ask me. Juts carve it in the correct shape and call it a day.

 

So what are your guys' thoughts? I look forward to your ideas.

 

VMN

 

Krakua's mask has actually always been shaped like a normal Suletu, but the builder didn't have an alternative mask so just used a Hau. Once Kongu Inika came out, Krakua was basically retconned to have that shaped mask.

 

However, you are right that a Kanohi's power isn't based on shape, since Toa Norik has a Pehuki shaped like a Kiril. However I suspect this is very expensive and rare since he's the only example of this, and we know that Toa Hagah armour is specially crafted from precious metals, so it must be expensive by definition.


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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Aug 15 2013 - 07:42 PM

Krakua's mask has actually always been shaped like a normal Suletu, but the builder didn't have an alternative mask so just used a Hau. Once Kongu Inika came out, Krakua was basically retconned to have that shaped mask.

It appears not (I had checked earlier 'cuz I had the same reaction):

 

 
Trivia
  • Krakua was created by John Dexter. His creation was the winning entry in The LEGO Group's Brickmaster Toa Building Contest. The winning entry used a Hau, as the Suletu piece did not exist at the time of the contest. This is reflected in the story as being a Hau-shaped Suletu.

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