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what would u have changed?


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33 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Yolanda Squarble Fried #1

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 03:46 PM

hey everyone so i've gotta question for you.

 

bionicle may be done but it's super obvious that a lot of people like it cause bzp is still going strong. but that doesn't mean we all like everything about it. maybe it was one wave of sets, or a plot detail, but there was probably something about bionicle that you would have changed.

 

so that's my question: if you could change any one thing about bionicle, what would u change?

 

personally, i would have liked to have written the songs instead of cryoshell i think i could have done a pretty great job.

 

i can see it now:

 

if i was the ignika

i'd never let u go

yeah, i'd take u places

that u never been before

inika, take a chance, or you'll never ever know

what's hidin at the bottom of the ocean floor

swag, swag, swag, it's true

u got mad powers? the barraki do too

but u can still beat em if ur masks are new

so say hello to the pit in 3, 2...

 

how about u? what would u change?

 


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2014

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<3


#2 Offline That Ghosthands is a spy

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 03:51 PM

I will find you.

 

Anyway, I personally would NOT have killed Krekka and Nidhiki (well...just Nidhiki, but we may as well have the brainless lackey too :P).  They were the first villains other than Makuta himself to actually have personalities, and I'd have loved to see them encounter the heroes again.


Edited by GHOStDOS, Nov 04 2013 - 03:57 PM.

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#3 Online Own Personal Quixote

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 04:27 PM

Perhaps I'd give Light Teridax time to shine or snip Vezon's pocket dimension entanglement from the storyline. I suppose I could also thief some more time for the Piraka.


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#4 Offline Toa Smoke Monster

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 05:37 PM

If I could've change one thing, I would've kept at least some of the Karda Nui Makuta alive. Especially Krika and Icarax. Both of them had very interesting personalities that I would've liked to have seen in the following storyline that came after 08. I also would've kept Gorast alive. I think seeing what she would've done after Teridax betrayed her would've made for a cool story. 


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#5 Offline That Ghosthands is a spy

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 06:21 PM

Basically...

 

GREG

 

STOP KILLING OFF THE COOL VILLAINS


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#6 Offline Black Six

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 07:02 PM

Moving to LEGO Discussion...
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#7 Offline Primis

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 07:19 PM

1. Either expand or remove all the pointless subplots that went nowhere, especially those alternate universes. That plot with Light Teridax and the army of Shadow Takanuva, yeah that sure went somewhere, didn't it? The League of Six Kingdoms reforming, the Dark Hunters staging a coup. So much wasted potential...

 

2. Completely revamp the ending and restore Greg's original plan of Mata Nui personally taking down Makuta, instead of *CONVENIENT METEORITE*.

 

3. Tone down all the random transformations.

 

"You don't need to be a Toa to be a hero" *zap* "but it helps if you are!"

 

I'd apply this to the Toa Nuva even. Speaking strictly about the narrative, what was the point of this? Nothing ever came from it. Yes, they were stronger, but they were already among the most powerful characters in the story, anything more is just overkill. I'd keep the Adaptive Armor though, that one at least made sense.

 

4. Give Takanuva a purpose. LEGO really hyped him up, they really wanted us to like him. Then he finally shows up, does virtually nothing, and then doesn't have another notable appearance for five years. And even then, his role in 2008 amounted to little more than "Hey, go that way!"

 

5. Revamp the Great Spirit's origins. Some of it just feels a little inconsistent:

 

The Matoran Universe is housed within the Great Spirit's giant, mechanical body. Gotcha.

 

The Great Spirit was constructed to explore and study the universe. So far so good.

 

The Matoran were never supposed to gain self-awareness. And here's where it all falls apart for me; if the Matoran were never supposed to evolve like they did, then why did the Great Beings give them an entire ecosystem? What use could any of that possibly have in maintaining the mech?

 

6. Get rid of that arbitrary rule where only Ga-Matoran are female, and everyone else is only male. Seriously, what was the point of this? The random transformations thing at least had the excuse of selling more toys, but this?

 

7. Some cosmetic stuff. For example, I would switch the Kualsi and Volitak's appearances. The Kualsi looks way too much like Nidhiki's head to ignore. I really don't understand why they chose to rebrand the Toa Dume and Nidhiki sets as Norik and Iruini.


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#8 Offline Kopekemaster

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Posted Nov 04 2013 - 07:24 PM

I wouldn't have ended it.

 

Now more seriously: I would have made it darker overall, and I would not have killed Teridax.

Set-wise, I would have kept gear functions in all of them.

And made more deadly launcher weapons. :P


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#9 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 05 2013 - 12:02 AM

[old rant] I would have "fixed" 2009 to give older fans a feel that it was connected to previous story somehow, not just a "random thing out there". The best would have been to have Mata Nui arrive first, and then explore the backstory and the mystery through his eyes rather than having all of it info-dumped on us before he showed up. [/old rant]

 

And I probably would have allowed for a bit better job on the ending...the giant robot fight really needed a CGI movie. The whole 2009-2010 story felt poorly thought out and really lost the mysterious feel of the story, and I would have made a big effort to fix that. 

 

Other than that...I felt the 2006-7 story was somewhat unnecessary but I don't know if cutting or condensing it would have been a good idea. The alternate dimensions never really bothered me - I just ignored them for the most part. And I liked the Alt. Teridax plot. I want that thing totally expanded on. (If Bionicle comes back...) That's one of the things I like about Bionicle - all the opportunities for expansion and fanfiction and stuff. I think cutting some of those details really takes away from the whole experience - alt. dimensions and the whole bit. People talk about how epic Bionicle's story was with all the grand detail, and then complain about the details they think are extraneous. And then other people like those details and think they fit.

 

It's weird.  


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#10 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 05 2013 - 01:26 AM

Many probably know what I think on this subject.

 

1. REMOVE ALTERNATE UNIVERSES ALL TOGETHER PERIOD.

 

That's the main thing. There are others as well.

 

2. I would retcon most of the online serials, with the exception of the 2007 ones and federation of fear.

 

3. More meaningful role for Takanuva in 2008

 

4. No 2009-2010. Bionicle should've ended in 2008 or the Ignition plot should've been actually finished.

 

5. Less radical personality deterioration for the Inika/Mahri

 

6. The Mahri should've turned Inika again after their mission - the Mahri forms could be underwater gear of some sort.

 

7. All Makuta should not have the exact same powers (and less of them)

 

Just some thoughts.


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#11 Offline Tahu Nuva 3.0

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Posted Nov 05 2013 - 05:57 AM

I would have actually made more serials. The serials were really great for tying the huge universe together. I would like to have seen more about the islands in the south or the strongholds.


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#12 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Nov 06 2013 - 04:08 PM

I do feel a huge number of mistakes were made from '05 onwards, and these points should address some of them:

 

 

- Reduce the amount of story in the books, or make the books available to everyone. The story was what kept lots of fans with the line for so long and to remove it from many of them was a major - possibly fatal - error.

 

- Make or don't make movies in years when the storyline is or isn't appropriate. 2005 didn't need a movie and the three years that followed did.

 

- Find a better way round the 'characters have to be sets to be in the story' rule than simply having all these deus ex machina style transformations that have no storyline reason to occur.

 

- If characters are transformed, at least make the new form slightly similar to the previous one. Not too surprisingly, the more time there was between two incarnations of a character, the more bizarre and inconsistent the transformation was.

 

- Decide who the key player is. The original Toa? Takanuva? The Inika? The storyline tried to give each party something significant to do across the line (excepting '04-5) and became somewhat cluttered.

 

- Have one consistent Matoran design instead of a different one each year, or at least make the designs resemble each other a little more closely.

 

- Try to keep comic artists on for longer. I can't help feeling there was a gradual deterioration in the richness and depth of the comic art from the start to the end.

 

 

Just some of the more obvious ones. I could go on.


Edited by Sir Kohran, Nov 06 2013 - 04:24 PM.

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#13 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Nov 06 2013 - 07:52 PM

I do feel a huge number of mistakes were made from '05 onwards, and these points should address some of them:  - Reduce the amount of story in the books, or make the books available to everyone. The story was what kept lots of fans with the line for so long and to remove it from many of them was a major - possibly fatal - error. - Make or don't make movies in years when the storyline is or isn't appropriate. 2005 didn't need a movie and the three years that followed did. - Find a better way round the 'characters have to be sets to be in the story' rule than simply having all these deus ex machina style transformations that have no storyline reason to occur. - If characters are transformed, at least make the new form slightly similar to the previous one. Not too surprisingly, the more time there was between two incarnations of a character, the more bizarre and inconsistent the transformation was. - Decide who the key player is. The original Toa? Takanuva? The Inika? The storyline tried to give each party something significant to do across the line (excepting '04-5) and became somewhat cluttered. - Have one consistent Matoran design instead of a different one each year, or at least make the designs resemble each other a little more closely. - Try to keep comic artists on for longer. I can't help feeling there was a gradual deterioration in the richness and depth of the comic art from the start to the end.  Just some of the more obvious ones. I could go on.

Point-by-point, here we go:-Reducing the amount of story in the books would have been a bad idea back then. The books were the number one substitute for the lack of movies in the later years, and if it weren't for the depth of story they conveyed I don't know if I'd have kept paying attention. If Bionicle were around now, there would be a much easier way to make the story accessible: publishing the books as e-books along with print copies. Alas, by the time e-books took off, most of the books were already published and Bionicle was on its way out.-Choosing which years deserve/need movies and which don't is a decision that can really only be made in retrospect. It'd be hard for them to know how insignificant 2005 would be back at the start of that year, much less how important 2006 would be. Besides, I think the diverse cast of the 2006 story worked better in the less limited books, where every Toa and every Piraka, along with the Matoran and Axonn and Brutaka, all got a chance to shine. Conversely, the small cast of Web of Shadows (six Toa Hordika, six Rahaga, Roodaka, and Sidorak) made for a more focused movie (although I do think the best moments of 2005 happened in the books).-It's easier to say "find a better way to do this", but unless you can propose such a way to do that it's an empty suggestion. Transformations were a way to avoid replacing well-loved characters with ones no one had heard of every year, and I think that that's a worthy sacrifice.-This is a valid point. The problem with a lot of those transformations was that set design had progressed so far since a character's original depiction that it would be hard to reconcile it with what had proven to sell with current audiences. As much of a change as the 2008 Toa Nuva were, the blobby Kanohi Nuva would have no place in sets in 2008. Funnily enough, Hero Factory has done much better with this—after the bumpy second year which bounced between "themes" the way Bionicle had, the Heroes reverted to their original faces, or close facsimiles thereof, and then this year the new masks still closely resembled the ones from the Breakout wave.-Deciding who the key player should be sounds like a simple decision, but I doubt it was anywhere near that clear as the story went on. After three years of the Toa Mata (who, in retrospect, were some of the weakest characters Bionicle had in terms of character development), the more conflicted and inexperienced Toa Metru were a breath of fresh air. True, the story could have gone back to the Toa Nuva when it returned to the present, but I much preferred the more interesting Toa Inika/Mahri, all things considered. In fact, if anything, I think Bionicle would have done well to stick with them up through 2008—but that didn't work with the accelerated timetable the story was put on after 2007. The clutter of the story was regrettable, but outside of the 2007 serials most of that could be ignored fairly easily without losing sight of the main plot.-One consistent Matoran design would have been, in a word, boring. Matoran designs bounced around, but I do think that for the most part, each one was better than the last—the exception being the dreadful Metru Nui Matoran, which to add insult to injury were made the canon standard. If each subsequent year had stuck to that design, I don't think I'd have bothered buying them anymore. As a toyline, Bionicle had to adapt to the market, so each change in the Matoran design was largely a reactionary one, and I don't think they were regrettable in the end.-I don't think this is an accurate judgment on the comic art, and I don't agree that the quality suffered as the series went on. Sayger's sketchier art was, in most cases, a welcome respite from the comparatively lifeless art that had come before. As for Leigh Gallagher and Pop Mhan's runs, I think their vibrant and expressive art was the best the series ever had. Sticking with one artist would have given the comics greater consistency, but if they had been consistently as dull as Randy Elliot's art I think I'd pass.

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#14 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Nov 06 2013 - 08:19 PM

Just know that all of these are story related only, and I'm not even considering what effect it would have on LEGO had the story been like this.

 

Ugh. Alternate Universes. The Takanuva ones were pretty cool, but that's 'bout it.

 

Remove the entire Bohrok Kal arc. It was kinda useless. The only thing that came out of it was the introduction of the Vahi, which could have been worked in elsewhere.

 

Include romance in a way that's not overdone or cheesy. A little bit of shipping wouldn't be a huge problem.

 

We don't need six Rahaga. One or two Rahaga with character development would be a more than suitable replacement.

 

The whole mystery aspect was greatly played down after 2004 ended. Bringing it back would have been nice.

 

Not sure what to do about 2005. Vakama struck me as out of character, but if they played more on him becoming depressed about Lhikan's death and angered moreso at the other Toa, then it wouldn't seem so bad. Perhaps the Hordika venom could make them all into ###### or something? I dunno. Can't just remove it, because Roodaka was an awesome character, but I disliked 2005.

 

Introduce Karzahni and Artahka long before 2006, and make it seem like they are just myths. Perhaps characters can use them almost as heaven and the other place that starts with H that I'm sure is censored out? I feel that would make the realization of them being physical locations more interesting.

 

And I don't really like 2008 to the end, so do whatever with those. I'd gladly put more thought into how to fix those years when I have the time to do so.

 

These are just whatever ramblings came to mind as I glanced around my room, so I'm sure there is PLENTY more I'd change.


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#15 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 06 2013 - 09:28 PM

Many probably know what I think on this subject. 1. REMOVE ALTERNATE UNIVERSES ALL TOGETHER PERIOD.

Ugh. Alternate Universes. The Takanuva ones were pretty cool, but that's 'bout it.

Ok. I disagree with this.The alternate universes - their presence - made storyline sense. For one thing, there's Brutaka's mask power, which was cool on multiple levels. For another thing, they refined the concept of destiny from an ironclad, all-knowing thing into a series of choice forks with multiple destinations. The alternate dimension thing explained why destiny was even a virtue, and how the characters could have destiny and still have freewilled thought. They could deviate from destiny and make new destiny, and these dimensions showed where they had actually done so.I think it would have been cooler if the alt. dimensions had affected the main plot a little more, but that wasn't the point of them anyway - the point was to show that alternate destinies were possible.And to explain how a Tahtorak randomly ended up in Metru Nui. :P 

4. No 2009-2010. Bionicle should've ended in 2008 or the Ignition plot should've been actually finished.

How was it not finished? The robot was reawoken and Makuta's big plot revealed, so why is it incomplete?And how would have you given purpose to the robot? It exists for a reason, and people would want to know that reason. A purposeless bot that crashed into the sea doesn't make for a very good story. 

Remove the entire Bohrok Kal arc. It was kinda useless. The only thing that came out of it was the introduction of the Vahi, which could have been worked in elsewhere.

I think the point of this was to reinforce that the Bahrag weren't easily stomped over, and that the GBs had a failsafe to protect their island-cleaner bots. 

Include romance in a way that's not overdone or cheesy. A little bit of shipping wouldn't be a huge problem.

I don't think this would have worked for the target audiance, who think girls have cooties. 

The whole mystery aspect was greatly played down after 2004 ended. Bringing it back would have been nice.

How was it played down? I thought the mystery was expanded upon, with the reveal that there was a big plan behind it all and a reason for all these character actions that we didn't know about.


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#16 Offline Lyichir

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Posted Nov 06 2013 - 09:58 PM

Include romance in a way that's not overdone or cheesy. A little bit of shipping wouldn't be a huge problem.

I don't think this would have worked for the target audiance, who think girls have cooties.

The problem I have with this is that it was essentially there; Nokama and Matau wasn't exactly subtle. And there were plenty of other character relationships that, while never explicitly stated to be romantic, could certainly be interpreted as such (like Onewa and Krahka). The "romance ban" existed almost purely on a meta level, and looking back seems to have just been a convenient excuse of Greg's to use to avoid having to answer shipping questions. Which, if I were in his place, I'd want to avoid too. :PSo no, I don't think the lack of romance in Bionicle was a problem, since I think the amount of romance that could be justified by the story was essentially already there. I can't think of any moments in Bionicle that should've had romance, but didn't.

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#17 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 02:21 AM

The alternate universes - their presence - made storyline sense. For one thing, there's Brutaka's mask power, which was cool on multiple levels. For another thing, they refined the concept of destiny from an ironclad, all-knowing thing into a series of choice forks with multiple destinations. The alternate dimension thing explained why destiny was even a virtue, and how the characters could have destiny and still have freewilled thought. They could deviate from destiny and make new destiny, and these dimensions showed where they had actually done so.I think it would have been cooler if the alt. dimensions had affected the main plot a little more, but that wasn't the point of them anyway - the point was to show that alternate destinies were possible.And to explain how a Tahtorak randomly ended up in Metru Nui. :P

 

Brutaka's mask was exactly the problem. Endless amount of alternate universes with their own Olmak's would mean that there should be a lot more travel between dimensions than were shown. The main universe should've been visited countless time over the course of the story, which would've been even worse than what it was. The Olmak would be cool enough just opening portals anywhere within the same universe.

 

You see, it's not just the existence of alternate dimensions, but the way Greg used them as deus ex machina's. Think about Brothers in Arms. Was that ending really good in your opinion? Really? Wouldn't it have been greater to actually see their final battle in Karda Nui instead of being zapped into some completely random place with no storyline relevance?

 

Also, the alternate universes also meant meaningless of the main universe in the minds of many fans. Why should we follow this universe when it's just one tiny drop in a sea of dimension chaos?

 

How was it (Ignition plot) not finished? The robot was reawoken and Makuta's big plot revealed, so why is it incomplete?And how would have you given purpose to the robot? It exists for a reason, and people would want to know that reason. A purposeless bot that crashed into the sea doesn't make for a very good story.

 

The Ignition saga was originally supposed to end in 2008 with Matoro sacrificing himself in Karda Nui. There was supposed to be a whole new year for the Inika/Mahri.

 

Also, I would remove 2009/2010 because of its shortness. The MU saga lasted 8 years, and by comparison 1,5 years feels insignificant. Not to mention that it was horribly executed. I would approve of the idea of 2009 much more if the story lasted at least 3 or even more years after that, giving us time to relate to the new cast of characters as well. But the short time spent with them allowed, at least myself, no room for actually getting attached to them.

 

Also, why would it be bad to leave the purpose of Mata Nui open? It wouldn't have been much worse than the information being dumped on us through Bzpower Greg discussions in 2009 instead of seeing the things in the actual storyline.

 

Now, for other comments:

 

I would not have removed the Bohrok-Kal arc. I really enjoyed that story, because it showed the Toa Nuva losing their powers and learning humility by being constantly defeated by the Kal. I don't think it affected the other arcs in any way either, so it was just a nice addition. A side quest, so to speak.

 

Also, I don't care if there was more romance introduced or not, but at least they shouldn't have retconned Macku's and Hewkii's relationship. Fans really learned to like that so decanonizing it doesn't make sense from that perspective, even if it was deemed necesary due to the nature of Matoran.

 

As for the loss of mystery in later years, I believe that was because Greg started ignoring that aspect, instead dumping information like crazy on us after 2005. The Voya Nui saga was still mysterious, I thought, but in 2007 the entire arc started with a detailed explanation by Greg on the past of the Barraki. That was exactly the kind of information we should have been allowed to learn ourselves by following a story, and maybe an online game or something. This was a big problem in 2009 too.

 

The fans feel more immersed if they have to do something to learn the big secrets, or wait a long enough time for them to be revealed, giving time to theorize and ponder about them.

 

Long... post...


Edited by Toatapio Nuva, Nov 07 2013 - 02:22 AM.

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#18 Offline Kopekemaster

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 08:19 AM

 

Many probably know what I think on this subject. 1. REMOVE ALTERNATE UNIVERSES ALL TOGETHER PERIOD.

Ugh. Alternate Universes. The Takanuva ones were pretty cool, but that's 'bout it.

Ok. I disagree with this.The alternate universes - their presence - made storyline sense. For one thing, there's Brutaka's mask power, which was cool on multiple levels. For another thing, they refined the concept of destiny from an ironclad, all-knowing thing into a series of choice forks with multiple destinations. The alternate dimension thing explained why destiny was even a virtue, and how the characters could have destiny and still have freewilled thought. They could deviate from destiny and make new destiny, and these dimensions showed where they had actually done so.I think it would have been cooler if the alt. dimensions had affected the main plot a little more, but that wasn't the point of them anyway - the point was to show that alternate destinies were possible.And to explain how a Tahtorak randomly ended up in Metru Nui. :P 

 

 

I'd have to agree with fisher64 on this - I really loved the alternate universes. And also, it is somewhat of a crucial plot point (or at least the fact of alternate universes existing) because of the Olmak.


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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 01:12 PM

Brutaka's mask was exactly the problem. Endless amount of alternate universes with their own Olmak's would mean that there should be a lot more travel between dimensions than were shown. The main universe should've been visited countless time over the course of the story, which would've been even worse than what it was. The Olmak would be cool enough just opening portals anywhere within the same universe.

But Brutaka was an Order of Mata Nui member, and for the vast amount of history, he was sane. I think he would use his mask with all due discretion. In further case, if other beings arrived from other dimensions to cause trouble, he could stop them and send them home.The case of Tridax's Olmak might be more problematic, but that was implied that the thing was used to move Destral, not as a dimension-hopping device. (except in the case of the shadow Toa, but that was an isolated thing.) 

You see, it's not just the existence of alternate dimensions, but the way Greg used them as deus ex machina's. Think about Brothers in Arms. Was that ending really good in your opinion? Really? Wouldn't it have been greater to actually see their final battle in Karda Nui instead of being zapped into some completely random place with no storyline relevance?

Again, isolated problem. Yes, those two should have had more of a battle. I liked the alt. Teridax plot, though, and felt that it should have stayed, but perhaps Vultraz should have been maimed or otherwise harmed by Mazeka first, so the two could have learned their lessons as opposed to having their story snatched out from under them. 

Also, the alternate universes also meant meaningless of the main universe in the minds of many fans. Why should we follow this universe when it's just one tiny drop in a sea of dimension chaos?

Because this is the universe where everyone's destiny was achieved in the best way. In the other dimensions, the future is grim. Tuyet's dimension left Mata Nui to try to assemble the pieces of SM alone, the Toa corrupted and at war, and a complete mess. The Kingdom left the pieces of SM still out there, about to face some unknown tragedy. The Melding left the SM inhabitants under Makuta overlords.The alternate dimensions aren't supposed to cheapen the main universe. They are supposed to show why events in the Core dimension had to be. 

The Ignition saga was originally supposed to end in 2008 with Matoro sacrificing himself in Karda Nui. There was supposed to be a whole new year for the Inika/Mahri.

And what would the Inika/Mahri do there? Mata Nui's life was already saved at the end of 2007. Anything else would have cheapened Matoro's sacrifice. 

Also, I would remove 2009/2010 because of its shortness. The MU saga lasted 8 years, and by comparison 1,5 years feels insignificant. Not to mention that it was horribly executed. I would approve of the idea of 2009 much more if the story lasted at least 3 or even more years after that, giving us time to relate to the new cast of characters as well. But the short time spent with them allowed, at least myself, no room for actually getting attached to them.

I agree that 2009-2010 was poorly executed, but that just doesn't justify removing it. It would have been better to fix it and do it right, rather than cutting it. 

Also, why would it be bad to leave the purpose of Mata Nui open? It wouldn't have been much worse than the information being dumped on us through Bzpower Greg discussions in 2009 instead of seeing the things in the actual storyline.

Because fans would naturally demand an answer for it. I have a pickaxe in my hand walking down the street, and people ask why. If I say that I'm digging irrigation ditches for my neighbor, the questions stop. I have defined a purpose for the pickaxe.If people wonder about a pickaxe on my shoulder, which is a completely ordinary object on a completely ordinary day, then they are going to wonder just what that giant robot was doing in the middle of a big planet of ocean. Human beings demand purpose and explanations for stuff, and we are so obsessed with it that when things aren't explained, we make up our own explanations.

That's not an excuse for info dumping. Yes, there should have been a (better) story arc to discover and explain this, but it should have been discovered and explained. Otherwise the theorists would have a 200-something page topic going trying to figure out what the robot was for, and a bunch of depressed fans complaining that we never figured it out.

 

(I wasn't here in 2009, but I know that the year in general wasn't too good, so yeah.) 

As for the loss of mystery in later years, I believe that was because Greg started ignoring that aspect, instead dumping information like crazy on us after 2005. The Voya Nui saga was still mysterious, I thought, but in 2007 the entire arc started with a detailed explanation by Greg on the past of the Barraki. That was exactly the kind of information we should have been allowed to learn ourselves by following a story, and maybe an online game or something. This was a big problem in 2009 too. The fans feel more immersed if they have to do something to learn the big secrets, or wait a long enough time for them to be revealed, giving time to theorize and ponder about them.

I agree with the last sentence, and definitely about 2009 - that was the subject of my last rant. And yes, it would have been nicer if we had been allowed to have the Barraki talk about their past instead of having it just revealed. But I think that fell victim to time-and-space constraints, and the whole Barraki reveal actually put more emphasis on Teridax and the Order, the true mysterious characters of that year. The Barraki weren't very important to the story IMO - kinda like the Bohrok-Kal in a way. You have to pick your battles. 

 

But how is doing one reveal qualify as "dumping information on us like crazy"? The fans demanded that - if you read the dialogues, it shows that Greg was holding back with his answers, and the fans were trying to wring every bit of info they could out of him. 


Edited by fishers64, Nov 07 2013 - 01:48 PM.

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#20 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 02:26 PM

Too... many... quotes...

 

But Brutaka was an Order of Mata Nui member, and for the vast amount of history, he was sane. I think he would use his mask with all due discretion. In further case, if other beings arrived from other dimensions to cause trouble, he could stop them and send them home.The case of Tridax's Olmak might be more problematic, but that was implied that the thing was used to move Destral, not as a dimension-hopping device. (except in the case of the shadow Toa, but that was an isolated thing.)

 

That is not really a very good explanation. Even Brutaka cannot be in all places at the same time and it would surely tire him to hop around just to send away inter-dimensional trouble-makers.

 

And don't forget that those coming into the universe would more often than not have their own Olmak's. They could zap Brutaka away just as fast as he could them. And besides, they could keep coming back again and again just by making new portals.

 

Whenever an alternate dimension actually had some impact on the main universe, I felt my heart grip, because then something that was not supposed to happen in the main universe happened.

 

Because this is the universe where everyone's destiny was achieved in the best way. In the other dimensions, the future is grim. Tuyet's dimension left Mata Nui to try to assemble the pieces of SM alone, the Toa corrupted and at war, and a complete mess. The Kingdom left the pieces of SM still out there, about to face some unknown tragedy. The Melding left the SM inhabitants under Makuta overlords.The alternate dimensions aren't supposed to cheapen the main universe. They are supposed to show why events in the Core dimension had to be.

 

The big problem with alternate universes isn't the fact that they exist, but the ease of actually travelling through them. All it takes is once Kanohi that isn't even legendary. This causes many problems and made the whole alt. universe idea easy to overuse.

 

I thought the Dark Mirror serial was ok. If it had been the only case of alt. dimension travelling, I would've been fine with it. If Takanuva's inter-dimensional travels were something special that could never be repeated, it would be good. But those travels are way too easy to imitate over and over and over again causing paradoxes and interventions into the destinies of other worlds... it's just a mess.

 

And what would the Inika/Mahri do there? Mata Nui's life was already saved at the end of 2007. Anything else would have cheapened Matoro's sacrifice.

 

If the original plan had been followed, Matoro wouldn't have sacrificed himself until the end of 2008. 

 

I agree that 2009-2010 was poorly executed, but that just doesn't justify removing it. It would have been better to fix it and do it right, rather than cutting it.

 

I agree, if they actually expanded on that story. But if I had to choose between two more years or no more years, I would've chosen the latter.

 

Because fans would naturally demand an answer for it. I have a pickaxe in my hand walking down the street, and people ask why. If I say that I'm digging irrigation ditches for my neighbor, the questions stop. I have defined a purpose for the pickaxe.If people wonder about a pickaxe on my shoulder, which is a completely ordinary object on a completely ordinary day, then they are going to wonder just what that giant robot was doing in the middle of a big planet of ocean. Human beings demand purpose and explanations for stuff, and we are so obsessed with it that when things aren't explained, we make up our own explanations.

That's not an excuse for info dumping. Yes, there should have been a (better) story arc to discover and explain this, but it should have been discovered and explained. Otherwise the theorists would have a 200-something page topic going trying to figure out what the robot was for, and a bunch of depressed fans complaining that we never figured it out.

 

(I wasn't here in 2009, but I know that the year in general wasn't too good, so yeah.)

 

I understand that. There would need to be some explanation, but that could have happened through Greg discussion on Bzpower. All information was given to us that way after 2008 anyway. It did not need more story years necessarily.

 

But how is doing one reveal qualify as "dumping information on us like crazy"? The fans demanded that - if you read the dialogues, it shows that Greg was holding back with his answers, and the fans were trying to wring every bit of info they could out of him. 

 

If you were writing a book chapter by chapter and your fans kept demanding for information on how it ended, would you give it to them? Of course Greg needed to give some answers, but he could have given it more slowly and less at a time. This is why the ending of 2008 was such a big thing. If Greg had told us about that earlier, the whole surprise would have been ruined.


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#21 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 03:18 PM

That is not really a very good explanation. Even Brutaka cannot be in all places at the same time and it would surely tire him to hop around just to send away inter-dimensional trouble-makers. And don't forget that those coming into the universe would more often than not have their own Olmak's. They could zap Brutaka away just as fast as he could them. And besides, they could keep coming back again and again just by making new portals. Whenever an alternate dimension actually had some impact on the main universe, I felt my heart grip, because then something that was not supposed to happen in the main universe happened. [...] The big problem with alternate universes isn't the fact that they exist, but the ease of actually travelling through them. All it takes is once Kanohi that isn't even legendary. This causes many problems and made the whole alt. universe idea easy to overuse. I thought the Dark Mirror serial was ok. If it had been the only case of alt. dimension travelling, I would've been fine with it. If Takanuva's inter-dimensional travels were something special that could never be repeated, it would be good. But those travels are way too easy to imitate over and over and over again causing paradoxes and interventions into the destinies of other worlds... it's just a mess.

Yes, and at least half of those alt. dimensions, Brutaka is the same way too. As far as we know, there were only two Olmaks in the Core Dimension. Why would alternate dimensions have ten gazillion Olmaks in them? There might be one dimension somewhere where the choice forks caused the production of more Olmaks, but travelers from that dimension would likely encounter at least one of the indefinite alternate sensible Brutakas. (That's probably why the dude had the mask in the first place.)Also, Olmaks can be destroyed, thus putting them whoever it was back where they belong until they get a new mask. In further case, this mask was considered to be very dangerous, since monsters from other dimensions were bad - why would Matoran produce them a mile-a-minute? Why wouldn't dimensional intruders have their masks destroyed and them sent home? (Or worse, their masks destroyed and them actually being stuck in the wrong dimension - the fear of that would keep them from using it.) I would think having that mask and actually using it would be very stupid - unless you're a Makuta and can fight Brutaka or something, which I think was how Tridax got away with it. 

 

I agree that 2009-2010 was poorly executed, but that just doesn't justify removing it. It would have been better to fix it and do it right, rather than cutting it.

 I agree, if they actually expanded on that story. But if I had to choose between two more years or no more years, I would've chosen the latter.

 

I would have chosen the former. I'm weird like that. :P 

I understand that. There would need to be some explanation, but that could have happened through Greg discussion on Bzpower. All information was given to us that way after 2008 anyway. It did not need more story years necessarily.

GregF: This giant robot was made to fix Spherus Magna, which Mata Nui was on a piece of, called Aqua Magna.Fans: Why?GregF: That's what the Great Beings designed him to do.Fans: Why did the planet break apart?GregF: The inhabitants of the planet got into a war over the Energized Protodermis in the core of the planet.Fans: Why did they do that?And so on. Besides, it's much better to have information revealed through a story than info-dumped on us through GregF. You just said that. Now you want Greg to just info-dump this big secret that they could have made an amazing story out of? Just because they didn't do it right, doesn't mean should have scrapped the whole thing - they should have fixed the story's problems.Also, I disagree that all information was given on BZP during 2009. I wasn't even on BZP until July of 2010 and I "got" the details of 2009-2010. There must have been some other information given out somewhere. :P 

 

But how is doing one reveal qualify as "dumping information on us like crazy"? The fans demanded that - if you read the dialogues, it shows that Greg was holding back with his answers, and the fans were trying to wring every bit of info they could out of him.

 If you were writing a book chapter by chapter and your fans kept demanding for information on how it ended, would you give it to them? Of course Greg needed to give some answers, but he could have given it more slowly and less at a time. This is why the ending of 2008 was such a big thing. If Greg had told us about that earlier, the whole surprise would have been ruined.

 

No, I would not.But the thing was, Greg did not give out that reveal. Again, I wasn't here during 2008-09, but I read the dialogues and it seemed like Greg mostly answered questions dealing with side details, not major plot points.


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#22 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Nov 07 2013 - 04:27 PM

Include romance in a way that's not overdone or cheesy. A little bit of shipping wouldn't be a huge problem.

I don't think this would have worked for the target audiance, who think girls have cooties. 

The whole mystery aspect was greatly played down after 2004 ended. Bringing it back would have been nice.

How was it played down? I thought the mystery was expanded upon, with the reveal that there was a big plan behind it all and a reason for all these character actions that we didn't know about.

 

At the top of my post, I said I wasn't caring about what effect it would have on LEGO, and that includes target audience. I was just saying whatever I thought would make for a better story.

 

The mystery thing just struck me as much lesser after a point. The characters weren't exactly finding strange things underground anymore, or hints to anything larger. 2006-2007 kinda had this stuff, but 2005 was pretty void of the mystery and 2008 had pretty much one thing I can recall being at all mysterious, and that being the control room the Hagah found. 2009 had potential, and I agree with the way you would have fixed it according to your post above; with Mata Nui arriving first.


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#23 Offline Primis

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Posted Nov 08 2013 - 01:03 AM

Introduce Karzahni and Artahka long before 2006, and make it seem like they are just myths. Perhaps characters can use them almost as heaven and the other place that starts with H that I'm sure is censored out? I feel that would make the realization of them being physical locations more interesting.

 

That actually is exactly what happened. Finding Artakha was the goal of an online promo game for Mask of Light. Karzahni was first mentioned in Maze of Shadows; a plant creature, the prototype Morbuzakh, was named after it.


Edited by Primis, Nov 08 2013 - 01:04 AM.

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#24 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Nov 08 2013 - 04:19 PM

 

Introduce Karzahni and Artahka long before 2006, and make it seem like they are just myths. Perhaps characters can use them almost as heaven and the other place that starts with H that I'm sure is censored out? I feel that would make the realization of them being physical locations more interesting.

 

That actually is exactly what happened. Finding Artakha was the goal of an online promo game for Mask of Light. Karzahni was first mentioned in Maze of Shadows; a plant creature, the prototype Morbuzakh, was named after it.

 

Der, I completely forgot about that online promo game. Perhaps a bit more mention? And did they mention the plant's namesake in Maze of Shadows? I don't recall.


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#25 Offline Primis

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Posted Nov 08 2013 - 05:04 PM

 

 

Introduce Karzahni and Artahka long before 2006, and make it seem like they are just myths. Perhaps characters can use them almost as heaven and the other place that starts with H that I'm sure is censored out? I feel that would make the realization of them being physical locations more interesting.

 

That actually is exactly what happened. Finding Artakha was the goal of an online promo game for Mask of Light. Karzahni was first mentioned in Maze of Shadows; a plant creature, the prototype Morbuzakh, was named after it.

 

Der, I completely forgot about that online promo game. Perhaps a bit more mention? And did they mention the plant's namesake in Maze of Shadows? I don't recall.

 

Yep, just after the plant is introduced it gives a rundown of the myth of Artakha and Karzahni.


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#26 Offline Ziontyro Metalhead

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 02:26 PM

I would have followed through with the storyline planned instead of cutting it and making the stars. The last movie was a cliffhanger and they're not planning on making a sequel. I feel they should have finished the storyline.


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#27 Offline Aanchir

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 04:52 PM

I would have followed through with the storyline planned instead of cutting it and making the stars. The last movie was a cliffhanger and they're not planning on making a sequel. I feel they should have finished the storyline.

Good idea! How, exactly, did you plan to do this?This is the problem with topics like this. A lot of people say what they would have done differently in retrospect without any regard to the how and why. Often, things went the way they did because it was the best way anyone could have expected them to go. Nobody in 2004 had the option of saying "oh, you know what, let's save next year's movie for a year when it's more important". Nobody in 2009 had the option of saying "Oh, you know what, let's keep pouring money into a dying theme, and asking other companies to do the same, just so we don't bum out the fans". Nobody EVER had or will have the option of saying "oh, let's commit more foreshadowing into these random secondary characters and story elements who won't be even imagined for another four or six years". It's simply unrealistic.BIONICLE's creators had to work with the knowledge and resources they had, and anyone else in charge in any hypothetical situation would have to do the exact same. Not necessarily making all the same decisions, but still having to plan things on the fly the same as the theme's actual creators.More realistic changes are things that WERE in fact plausible options, like "include more romance" or "include more/less humor" or "do more crossovers" or "drop more hints about the Big Story Engine" or "design more adventure games" or "use more of a certain genre of promotional music". These aren't things that would require infallible foresight or the miraculous ability to manipulate sales figures at will. They'd just require slightly different creative and business direction.

Edited by Aanchir: Rachira of Time, Nov 13 2013 - 04:53 PM.

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#28 Offline Primis

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Posted Nov 13 2013 - 08:17 PM

I would have followed through with the storyline planned instead of cutting it and making the stars. The last movie was a cliffhanger and they're not planning on making a sequel. I feel they should have finished the storyline.

Good idea! How, exactly, did you plan to do this?This is the problem with topics like this. A lot of people say what they would have done differently in retrospect without any regard to the how and why. Often, things went the way they did because it was the best way anyone could have expected them to go. Nobody in 2004 had the option of saying "oh, you know what, let's save next year's movie for a year when it's more important". Nobody in 2009 had the option of saying "Oh, you know what, let's keep pouring money into a dying theme, and asking other companies to do the same, just so we don't bum out the fans". Nobody EVER had or will have the option of saying "oh, let's commit more foreshadowing into these random secondary characters and story elements who won't be even imagined for another four or six years". It's simply unrealistic.BIONICLE's creators had to work with the knowledge and resources they had, and anyone else in charge in any hypothetical situation would have to do the exact same. Not necessarily making all the same decisions, but still having to plan things on the fly the same as the theme's actual creators.More realistic changes are things that WERE in fact plausible options, like "include more romance" or "include more/less humor" or "do more crossovers" or "drop more hints about the Big Story Engine" or "design more adventure games" or "use more of a certain genre of promotional music". These aren't things that would require infallible foresight or the miraculous ability to manipulate sales figures at will. They'd just require slightly different creative and business direction.

This whole post is needlessly antagonistic. The entire point of this topic (and others like it) is what you personally would have preferred to happen; no one is wrong for wishing that something turned out differently. The way you worded this makes it sound like we have a time machine and are planning on going back to change LEGO's decisions. Hypothetical musings =/= real-world business investments. 

Nobody in 2009 had the option of saying "Oh, you know what, let's keep pouring money into a dying theme, and asking other companies to do the same, just so we don't bum out the fans".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what happened in 2009? The decision to end BIONICLE happened in 2008, but The Legend Reborn was too far into production to cancel, so they went ahead and continued the theme.And I know that's what happened in 2010, Greg said several times that the BIONICLE Team practically had to beg the higher-ups for one more wave of sets, in order to wrap up the story. I would link to a specific post, but they've all been deleted.

Edited by Primis, Nov 14 2013 - 12:15 AM.

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#29 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Nov 14 2013 - 02:03 AM

No, the decision to cancel Bionicle happened after the release of TLR in 2009. Greg said it himself. They were already scripting the next movie for 2010, when LEGO informed everyone that Bionicle would be cancelled. The 2010 stars and story were a response to this, in order to wrap up the story quickly.


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#30 Offline Sir Kohran

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Posted Nov 14 2013 - 05:19 AM

This is the problem with topics like this. A lot of people say what they would have done differently in retrospect without any regard to the how and why. Often, things went the way they did because it was the best way anyone could have expected them to go. Nobody in 2004 had the option of saying "oh, you know what, let's save next year's movie for a year when it's more important". Nobody in 2009 had the option of saying "Oh, you know what, let's keep pouring money into a dying theme, and asking other companies to do the same, just so we don't bum out the fans". Nobody EVER had or will have the option of saying "oh, let's commit more foreshadowing into these random secondary characters and story elements who won't be even imagined for another four or six years". It's simply unrealistic.BIONICLE's creators had to work with the knowledge and resources they had, and anyone else in charge in any hypothetical situation would have to do the exact same. Not necessarily making all the same decisions, but still having to plan things on the fly the same as the theme's actual creators.

 

The topic asks what people would have changed in view of what we now know, now that we've seen what did and didn't work. For instance, I doubt when Lego released the first Toa they were aware that to keep characters in the story for more than one year they'd end up contriving all those transformations. That doesn't change the fact that I think a better solution could've been found.

 

(Although I would argue that certain things could've been foreseen and resolved before they became issues, like the lack of an established main character/party.)

 

No, the decision to cancel Bionicle happened after the release of TLR in 2009. Greg said it himself. They were already scripting the next movie for 2010, when LEGO informed everyone that Bionicle would be cancelled.

 

True. The article analysing the end of Bionicle just after the announcement even mentions a movie scheduled for 2011.


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#31 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 14 2013 - 11:16 AM

IMO there's nothing wrong with topics like this, since it's merely pointing out a ruthless time-travel hypothetical. 

 

Also, there's a slim possibility that Lego will consider our improvement ideas and apply them to future Lego innovations. We know that those aren't possible now, and we're not insulting people in the past. We're just thinking of changes that we would like, without saying that Lego should cater to us. (This is just my opinion over here yonder.)


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#32 Offline Ziontyro Metalhead

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Posted Nov 14 2013 - 02:14 PM

 

 
Good idea! How, exactly, did you plan to do this?This is the problem with topics like this. A lot of people say what they would have done differently in retrospect without any regard to the how and why. Often, things went the way they did because it was the best way anyone could have expected them to go. Nobody in 2004 had the option of saying "oh, you know what, let's save next year's movie for a year when it's more important". Nobody in 2009 had the option of saying "Oh, you know what, let's keep pouring money into a dying theme, and asking other companies to do the same, just so we don't bum out the fans". Nobody EVER had or will have the option of saying "oh, let's commit more foreshadowing into these random secondary characters and story elements who won't be even imagined for another four or six years". It's simply unrealistic.BIONICLE's creators had to work with the knowledge and resources they had, and anyone else in charge in any hypothetical situation would have to do the exact same. Not necessarily making all the same decisions, but still having to plan things on the fly the same as the theme's actual creators.More realistic changes are things that WERE in fact plausible options, like "include more romance" or "include more/less humor" or "do more crossovers" or "drop more hints about the Big Story Engine" or "design more adventure games" or "use more of a certain genre of promotional music". These aren't things that would require infallible foresight or the miraculous ability to manipulate sales figures at will. They'd just require slightly different creative and business direction.

 

I would have at least finished the story line in comic or story form instead of jumping strait to the stars. I'm not saying I would like more sets, I'm saying that they left out a lot of story content that would have made more sense than what they did


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#33 Offline KlakWest

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Posted Nov 15 2013 - 10:51 AM

Perhaps I would have preferred more Teridax, Nidhiki, and evil Takanuva screen time.


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#34 Offline Vorahk1Panrahk2

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Posted Nov 15 2013 - 04:46 PM

I would have integrated the serials with the books. Between the serials, the books, and the comics (and to some extent the movies) there was just too much story spread out over too much media, and it made it difficult to follow. Obviously the downside is that the books can cost money (to read) and the story serials don't, but it would have made following the characters and the stories much easier.


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