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I think the official story canon is that all the Krana-Kal escaped (since this was 2003 after all and they wanted to avoid killing living creatures in the story), but really that doesn't make sense.  There was simply no way for most of them to eject in time.  Nuvhok-Kal was sucked into black hole.

 

in that case, it's kinda a miracle anything escaped.

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how could Nuhvok-Kal's Krana-Kal have possibly ejected without being destroyed along with its armor?

Bohrok have brain-launchers built into their heads. I'm just not sure if he did that. The animation and comic certainly don't create that impression; if he did, he flipped the case back closed right away and then started dying, just in time to miss the "snapshots" of the comic art and somehow offscreen in the animation version (of course, wouldn't be the first retcon of such portrayals but yeah).

 

(Even so, a black hole really would destroy everything around it... but comic book physics strike again. :P)

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how could Nuhvok-Kal's Krana-Kal have possibly ejected without being destroyed along with its armor?

Bohrok have brain-launchers built into their heads. I'm just not sure if he did that. The animation and comic certainly don't create that impression; if he did, he flipped the case back closed right away and then started dying, just in time to miss the "snapshots" of the comic art and somehow offscreen in the animation version (of course, wouldn't be the first retcon of such portrayals but yeah).

 

(Even so, a black hole really would destroy everything around it... but comic book physics strike again. :P)

 

Does it ever say the amount of time between when the Bohrok-Kal noticed that their powers were overloading and when they were starting to be destroyed? If it's long enough for them to eject, the Krana-Kal could have easily escaped. 

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Oh yeah curse them Comic Book physics. I've always wondered about what effect an actual black hole would have on the area around it. I mean could you even see or tell one was right in front of you? If light supposedly cannot escape it then there would be no indication anything was there save for random objects spiraling and being pulled to a single point in front of you only to vanish without a trace. For that matter if one appeared between the two of us would we be able to see each other being distorted visually? Would we be able to even se each other at all without looking around the hole? Then there is the whole time distortion effect of being in/near a black hole. Even a micro version on earth would be devastating yes?

Edited by Prowl Nightwolf

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I mean could you even see or tell one was right in front of you? If light supposedly cannot escape it then there would be no indication anything was there

 

that's kinda why they're called black holes, the void of light makes them show up... black.


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I mean could you even see or tell one was right in front of you? If light supposedly cannot escape it then there would be no indication anything was there

 

that's kinda why they're called black holes, the void of light makes them show up... black.

 

That's assuming that it is large enough to see.  I doubt a black hole made by compressing Nuhvok-Kal would be be visible.

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I mean could you even see or tell one was right in front of you? If light supposedly cannot escape it then there would be no indication anything was there

 

that's kinda why they're called black holes, the void of light makes them show up... black.

 

That's assuming that it is large enough to see.  I doubt a black hole made by compressing Nuhvok-Kal would be be visible.

 

Well the term "Black" is not an indication of their color but rather that they cannot be seen in the darkness of space. The only reason we know they exist is because of the belief that they are create from the collapse of a large star. Also based on equations related to the orbit of several celestial bodies around a center point. We don't know where Black holes are because they do not radiate light. So regardless of their location be it deep space or in your neighbor's front yard supposedly we'd not be able to visually say they are there. Relying on their effect in the environment. Well then you have quasars that are basically Black hole Vomit. that we can see.

 

Regardless of size a black hole would not actually be visible. Only the effect it is having would be. Up until a point. So that is why I asked the question about being able to see past it. Would you see somebody on the other side of this hole as they normally appear or would the image be distorted due to the gravitational pull of the black hole between you?

 

 

You -> '|' (( BH )) "|" <-Somebody Else.

Edited by Prowl Nightwolf
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"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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Actually Rahkshi Lalonde is right, black holes are black, they're not transparent. If something were transparent, that would mean light is able to travel through it, which is not the case with black holes: light gets sucked in and stays there. The area around the black hole also undergoes this effect partly: the closer you get to a black hole, the immenser its gravitational pull becomes, and light is also affected by that. What that means is that when something is close to the black hole, light has a hard time escaping from it, which means the light is slowed down. If you're watching something fall onto a black hole it will therefore seem as though it falls slower and slower and becomes darker and darker and never seems to actually reach the black hole, while in reality it has already reached the black hole and you're just seeing a delayed image.

 

Regarding Nuhvok-Kal and his Krana-Kal: Nuhvok-Kal had gravity powers. What that means in BIONICLE is that he could pick and choose what objects were affected by his gravity power and what objects weren't. When he was overloaded, the gravity power could easily have just applied to the Bohrok-Kal shell only and not to his Krana-Kal.

 

Edit: Oh and regarding the quote about Pahrak-Kal that started this: Greg made a conditional statement "If there is no core...", which was false. AM was a moon and moons have cores as well. It doesn't have to be magma (or superheated metal, like the core of the earth), a core is simply the part that's in the center. Since the condition Greg posed is false, the rest of his answer isn't necessarily true either.

Edited by Thormen
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Also, (at least in the real world) Black holes evaporate after absorbing too much mass. (as they accrete matter, they give off hawking radiation, which is emission of various subatomic particles in space. They actually get smaller over time, and eventually they evaporate.) Nuhvok Kal would, according to Stephen Hawking's theory, evaporate rather quickly.

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Note also that it's incorrect that we don't know where black holes are. Besides that they show up as a distorted black region when something passes behind them, we can see their accretion disks (when they have them). They are not just mathematical theories anymore than wind is.

 

As for the gravity Kal, the black hole was generated by a power and once the source of the power was crushed, it would instantly evaporate, not due to Hawking radiation but because the gravitons themselves stop being generated by the elemental power. That would be enough to save the planet... what else gets saved depends on timing, though. I always thought the comic portrayal had it last way too long for the cavern and surroundings to survive. I portrayed a more realistic version in the Paracosmos. :)

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Note also that it's incorrect that we don't know where black holes are. Besides that they show up as a distorted black region when something passes behind them, we can see their accretion disks (when they have them). They are not just mathematical theories anymore than wind is.

 

As for the gravity Kal, the black hole was generated by a power and once the source of the power was crushed, it would instantly evaporate, not due to Hawking radiation but because the gravitons themselves stop being generated by the elemental power. That would be enough to save the planet... what else gets saved depends on timing, though. I always thought the comic portrayal had it last way too long for the cavern and surroundings to survive. I portrayed a more realistic version in the Paracosmos. :)

I get to correct bonesiii on physics!?  Let's make this count.  (and triple-check it, so I don't make a fool out of myself)

 

First, as far as I can tell, the black hole created by Nuhvok-Kal was not a separate object created by his gravity.  He was transformed INTO a black hole by being compressed.  At this point, he no longer needs to use his power to sustain the gravity; his body's natural gravity is enough.

 

Any object can become a black hole by reducing it's volume and keeping it's mass constant (and increasing it's density).  The amount of compression required to become a black hole is given by Schwarzschild's Radius formula:  

 

R=2GM/c2

where R is Schwarzschild's Radius (the radius that, if all the mass of an object were to be compressed inside that radius, the object would become a black hole),

G is the universal gravitational constant,

and c is the speed of light.

 

The mass of Nuhvok-Kal is unknown, so we can't calculate the radius.  We can assume, however, that Nuhvok-Kal shrunk himself to that size and became a black hole.  At this point, his elemental power being active or not is meaningless, as he is a natural (and tiny) black hole.  At this small of a size, Hawking Radiation would eliminate the Black Hole relatively quickly (compared to black holes of a more realistic mass).

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Actually, this checks out. While bones is right in that the black hole was generated by Nuhvok Kal's power, it would make more sense for the black hole to evaporate of its own. Black holes are formed when an object gets too dense, rather than too heavy, so Nuhvok Kal's immediate death would not be the cause of the black hole's evaporation.


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Yeah the color(Or lack of color) Black is still a reflection of light off the object appearing black. Since light cannot reflect off a Black hole it can't actually be black. While agreed they are not technically transparent what are they then? I know from what I've seen and read(Avid Science/Discovery/Nasa/etc. channel watcher) Black holes cannot actually be seen; however their effect on the surrounding area can. For example the radiation the hole vomits back out. Also measuring the gravitational pull of nearby celestial bodies such as stars. So that is why I purposed the question what would one see if one opened in front of them? I mean what did everyone see what the Bohrok imploded into a micro black hole? Did they even see anything or did he just swirl out of existence like water down a drain?

 

It is a weird concept since most actual black holes we know exist do so in the darkness of space. Being black to the visual eye black holes do as well. In the case of what Bones said with the "Besides that they show up as a distorted black region when something passes behind them". I theorize that is due to the space around the hole being black due to you know being in space.

 

So a black hole would show a distorted image of whatever passes behind it?


"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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Yeah the color(Or lack of color) Black is still a reflection of light off the object appearing black. Since light cannot reflect off a Black hole it can't actually be black. While agreed they are not technically transparent what are they then? I know from what I've seen and read(Avid Science/Discovery/Nasa/etc. channel watcher) Black holes cannot actually be seen; however their effect on the surrounding area can. For example the radiation the hole vomits back out. Also measuring the gravitational pull of nearby celestial bodies such as stars. So that is why I purposed the question what would one see if one opened in front of them? I mean what did everyone see what the Bohrok imploded into a micro black hole? Did they even see anything or did he just swirl out of existence like water down a drain?

 

It is a weird concept since most actual black holes we know exist do so in the darkness of space. Being black to the visual eye black holes do as well. In the case of what Bones said with the "Besides that they show up as a distorted black region when something passes behind them". I theorize that is due to the space around the hole being black due to you know being in space.

 

So a black hole would show a distorted image of whatever passes behind it?

Something that reflects no light (like a black hole) would actually appear black.  Black is the result of no color (light) being reflected.  

 

Scientists have tried to create a substance that is "truly" black (reflects NO light): this is the closest that they have gotten.  

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yeah, black is caused by the absence of light reflection, or in most cases, most of it anyway. it's kinda funny since nuhvok-kal already absorbed a lot of light just by having pitch black armor. :U

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Somehow I missed that concept apparently. I think I realized that after actually posting. Though not 100% on the idea. I mean light is traveling through space all the time so why does it appear black to us? I don't have all the science on the subject. though that link you posted is really cool and a nice read. Me being a big fan of black.

 

Black is the absence of color that much I know. But is it every color within the spectrum? Even the ones outside the visible spectrum?


"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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Somehow I missed that concept apparently. I think I realized that after actually posting. Though not 100% on the idea. I mean light is traveling through space all the time so why does it appear black to us? I don't have all the science on the subject. though that link you posted is really cool and a nice read. Me being a big fan of black.

 

Black is the absence of color that much I know. But is it every color within the spectrum? Even the ones outside the visible spectrum?

 

this might get a bit off topic? but i love answering questions. :U

 

space appears black because light, in wave form, is generally invisible until it hits a substance/matter, so while we can see the light's source (stars) stuff it reflects off of (venus, for example) etc, we cannot see space because there is too much void in between the particles for the light to hit any of it. (this is probs worded poorly, oops.)

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Somehow I missed that concept apparently. I think I realized that after actually posting. Though not 100% on the idea. I mean light is traveling through space all the time so why does it appear black to us? I don't have all the science on the subject. though that link you posted is really cool and a nice read. Me being a big fan of black.

 

Black is the absence of color that much I know. But is it every color within the spectrum? Even the ones outside the visible spectrum?

 

this might get a bit off topic? but i love answering questions. :U

 

space appears black because light, in wave form, is generally invisible until it hits a substance/matter, so while we can see the light's source (stars) stuff it reflects off of (venus, for example) etc, we cannot see space because there is too much void in between the particles for the light to hit any of it. (this is probs worded poorly, oops.)

 

Well that makes sense. It also leads precedence to the idea of black holes actually appearing black regardless of what environment they form in. Even if only after the event horizon. It what point light can no longer escape and is effectively eaten by the hole.

 

Ok, I think I am done now before the staff have to step in and put us back on topic.

Edited by Prowl Nightwolf

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If I remember correctly, Greg's taking care of his daughter and writing books for the lego themes that are still making money. I wonder when he will eventually decide to close his account and stop doing Q&As if he's had enough of them.


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NS, you misunderstand -- it's not that tiny black holes that evaporate naturally couldn't happen in theory (if you could make one), it's that the driver of the collapse breaks in this case long before actually reaching the singularity point, and what was pulling it in was being artificially generated by that body being intact. This is something not found in real-life black hole calculations, lol. Well aware of what you said (and it's been discussed in topics on here since 2003 :P).

 

Another problem with that old theory is that it's thought that mass turning into a singularity rips apart its status as matter in a way similar to antimatter explosions, and the gravity is what contains it from exploding. It's been said that a shirt button of antimatter (combined with another of matter) would destroy a continent. So with that gravity gone (beyond the body's natural, tiny amount of gravity), if he had actually reached that point, rapid evaporation probably means BOOM. (And slow might mean falling into the planet's core and eventually Vulcan Reboot.)

 

However, it's still valid to call it a black hole because until the body broke, it was generating enough gravity to bend light in. (Presumably.)

 

(Disclaimer: Greg probably doesn't get most of that and would just appeal to it not being real-world physics... but the timing of the gravity stopping being generated seems to make sense in Bionicle physics, so yeah.)

Edited by bonesiii

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NS, you misunderstand -- it's not that tiny black holes that evaporate naturally couldn't happen in theory (if you could make one), it's that the driver of the collapse breaks in this case long before actually reaching the singularity point, and what was pulling it in was being artificially generated by that body being intact. This is something not found in real-life black hole calculations, lol. Well aware of what you said (and it's been discussed in topics on here since 2003 :P).

I'd suspect not since we believe the only way to create a black hole is for a star of large density to collapse and die. Though isn't that technically what happened here? I have not ready the comic so not sure officially. The Bohrok's gravitational powers caused him to collapse in on himself in the form of a black hole? Also after a certain time as long as there is something to feed said hole it could become self containing. Something like the entirety of Aqua Magna. That is where this happened yes, on Mat a Nui. From how I understand it a black hole can become dormant when there is nothing left to eat but rarely if ever do they close completely. Being reactivated once a "meal" comes close enough.

 

Another problem with that old theory is that it's thought that mass turning into a singularity rips apart its status as matter in a way similar to antimatter explosions, and the gravity is what contains it from exploding. It's been said that a shirt button of antimatter (combined with another of matter) would destroy a continent. So with that gravity gone (beyond the body's natural, tiny amount of gravity), if he had actually reached that point, rapid evaporation probably means BOOM. (And slow might mean falling into the planet's core and eventually Vulcan Reboot.)

 

However, it's still valid to call it a black hole because until the body broke, it was generating enough gravity to bend light in. (Presumably.)

 

(Disclaimer: Greg probably doesn't get most of that and would just appeal to it not being real-world physics... but the timing of the gravity stopping being generated seems to make sense in Bionicle physics, so yeah.)

Wait are you referring to equal amounts of antimatter button and a matter button? Don't they just cancel each other out? Violently perhaps but extra amounts of either antimatter or matter would be safe unless they two come into contact with their respective counterparts.

"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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Not sure what you're asking -- are you asking if antimatter and matter cancel each other out versus explode? (Depending on how you define "cancel out", no. They basically release the energy that makes up their mass, and that loosed energy explodes. Which I'm bringing up because a singularity apparently results in loosed energy too, but the gravity normally contains it.)

 

Also a nitpick, I wouldn't refer to black holes as "closing", to avoid the confusion with taking "hole" literally. :P Dissipating or words to that effect would work better. Anywho.

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I see lots of physics stuffs here, and it's my time to shine.

 

OK, let's talk Hawking radiation. Black holes are not really black, they slightly shine. I don't want to get too technical, but black holes radiate energy away constantly. Whatever goes into a black hole is most likely destroyed by the singularity, but an equal amount of energy will radiate away. This radiation makes the black hole shrink until it no longer exists. But frankly, I think we are looking way to far into this. We are simply given too many unknowns in a universe with different physics to make a meaningful conclusion of what would happen. I had a topic where I discussed if real physics applied to Bionicle (which I may start a similar one this summer), but this simply isn't the place.

 

So, could the Krana escape? Probably not, but I can't say for sure. As for Pahrak-Kal, well, let's just say that he died from intense heat and pressure and leave it at that. If you want to make a detailed theory of what happened, make another topic (that would actually be pretty cool). I learned long ago that science and the cannon don't mix well.


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I found this 

 

 

 

Orionpaxg1 wrote:

1 Of all the Barraki, which one in your opinion is the most redeemable(possible to turn good)

 

2 Does magic exist in Bionicle? becuase the Dark Hunter Conjurer seems to think so

 

3 Can the golden skin fusion infuse matoran with Toa energy, or can only a Great Being do that

 

4 Is it possible for Miserix to regain his inner light? or become a good guy

 

1, 4) I don't really believe in redeeming characters, Orion. I believe a good villain is a villain for a reason, and they are not just going to suddenly turn good. They may do good things, but it will be out of their own self-interest, not because they have suddenly become virtuous.

2) No

 

3) You mean through the dream-granting power? It's a good question. I would be interested to hear what other people think on it.

GREG, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
..."don't really believe in redeeming characters"... Why? 

  1. It's unrealistic.  (people in real life grow and change)
  2. It limit's storytelling options.  (people love redemption stories)

No magic, that's okay.  
I do agree that the possibility of Gold-Skinned Being being able to transform Matoran into Toa is worthy of discussion.

...don't believe in redeeming characters... Now I understand why people blatantly ignore Greg's LMB answers.

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Well, this explains why he killed pretty much everything interesting about Krika's character.

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Characters are not static. They grow and change, or don't grow or don't change, because of reasons. And pretending that villains can't change in a redemptive fashion isn't realistic.

 

The opposite - making it so that all of your villains become good in the end - isn't realistic either, but still. It depends on how that character is and how they react to the events and other people in the story.

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Yeah, this is an old idea of Greg's. He gave the example of Darth Vader's turnaround at one point on the old forums as seeming unrealistic to him. I don't get it, but it's one of his things. I suspect he doesn't mean that villains can't change but that "good" villains (the kind he enjoys for story antagonists) don't. But unsure... doesn't sound that way in this wording. :shrugs:

 

Note that he did tell a redemption story of sorts with Brutaka, which was one of my favorites. He might be generalizing to have a short answer, as he usually doesn't say more than a sentence or two at a time.

Edited by bonesiii
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As bones pointed out, we shouldn't take Greg's short answers, on the LMB or otherwise, too literally. He doesn't usually elaborate, and we have seen characters in the storyline redeem themselves (like Brutaka and Vakama). 

 

Well, this explains why he killed pretty much everything interesting about Krika's character.

 

Krika is still plenty interesting as a character, regardless of whether or not his motives were ultimately noble or selfish.

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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Yeah a Villain who is intended to forever be a villain is going to remain a villain is what Greg was saying. Such Villains as Satan or Freeza who are intended to be the pinnacle of Evil who do tasks seemingly good but have ulterior motives for their actions have what some call "no redeemable qualities" are Gregs Favorites. Kind of the opposite side of the coin. The incorruptible good guy. Who no matter what happens to them or their loved ones or around them they remain static on their course of action to be good true and just. This isn't to say that there are not bad guys who can turn over a new leaf and become good or good guys who can fall down a dark path.

 

Though maybe based on the quote Greg really doesn't believe a truly bad guy can ever become good. Once bad always bad. No exceptions.

Edited by Prowl Nightwolf

"A stranger will always be a stranger unless you give them a chance."

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As bones pointed out, we shouldn't take Greg's short answers, on the LMB or otherwise, too literally. He doesn't usually elaborate, and we have seen characters in the storyline redeem themselves (like Brutaka and Vakama). 

 

Well, this explains why he killed pretty much everything interesting about Krika's character.

 

Krika is still plenty interesting as a character, regardless of whether or not his motives were ultimately noble or selfish.

Yes, but those were people who started off good, went to the dark side, and came back. So they weren't technically "villains", just fallen heroes who came back. 

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As bones pointed out, we shouldn't take Greg's short answers, on the LMB or otherwise, too literally. He doesn't usually elaborate, and we have seen characters in the storyline redeem 

Well, this explains why he killed pretty much everything interesting about Krika's character.

 

Krika is still plenty interesting as a character, regardless of whether or not his motives were ultimately noble or selfish.

 

I don't think so. Pretty much everything interesting about his character to me revolved around him being a Makuta who envied Toa and wished he could be redeemed.

 

By Greg's statements that he was always working to his own ends and never disliked being evil, that part of him is completely destroyed. It changes him trying to stop the Toa from a Makuta's last-ditch effort to stop their terrible plan to a selfish Makuta who wants the Matoran Universe for his own purposes. Which is boring.

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Yes, but those were people who started off good, went to the dark side, and came back. So they weren't technically "villains", just fallen heroes who came back. 

"Started off good"  describes a pretty good chunk of BIONICLE's villains, though. Teridax, the Makuta, the Barraki, Nidhiki, Tuyet, etc. They're all fallen heroes, but they weren't redeemed. In that case, the distinction doesn't really matter. You can't say its because we knew them as good people before, because when we met Brutaka on Voya Nui, he was already a villain. 

 

 

I don't think so. Pretty much everything interesting about his character to me revolved around him being a Makuta who envied Toa and wished he could be redeemed.

 

By Greg's statements that he was always working to his own ends and never disliked being evil, that part of him is completely destroyed. It changes him trying to stop the Toa from a Makuta's last-ditch effort to stop their terrible plan to a selfish Makuta who wants the Matoran Universe for his own purposes. Which is boring.

I think the point of disagreement between us is that we have divergent interpretations of Krika's character.

 

I never saw him as a noble figure, or as someone who was trying to redeem himself. To me, Krika was defined by one word: regret. His actions and statements in the two books that he was prominent in make it clear that he never had any investment in the Plan. The only reason he went along with it was fear for his own survival and the knowledge that rebellion was futile. He did rebel against Teridax, when he could, but ultimately Krika doomed himself due to a lack of ambition and a fatalistic view of the world, born from his belief in destiny. At one point in Swamp of Shadows, he compares the events unfolding around him as performance of sorts, one in which he simply plays his part. Regardless of whether or not Teridax succeeded, Krika believed that the universe would have a miserable end. He could have done more to prevent it, but that's the point: he lacked that core of unshakable moral goodness and ambition that would have allowed him to actually make a difference in the end, simply because he prioritized his own survival above all. He would never act like a Toa, sacrificing himself for the greater good. Krika was just as selfish as the other Makuta; what differentiated him was a relative lack of malice and evil plans for domination.

 

This is why I question your assertion that Krika wanted the Matoran Universe for himself. At no point in the two books which he featured in did he give any indication of this being even remotely relevant to his motives, and I don't recall Greg ever saying so either. A central aspect of Krika's character is his lack of ambition; the idea that he wanted the universe for himself seems very OOC to me. He wanted Teridax to fail so that he himself could have a better life, because he believed that Teridax's leadership would only lead to the destruction of everything. He was also very bitter about how much he had suffered for a scheme that he had zero investment in, as he tells Tahu in Swamp of Secrets. And since you mentioned his envy of Toa: I agree, he did envy Toa, and he did wish that he could be more like them. What made him hate them, though, was the knowledge that he could never do what they do: selfless heroism and sacrifice for no reward. Krika would have liked to have such noble traits (if he had them, he could have done more to prevent Teridax from completing his plan) but he knew that ultimately, that wasn't the kind of person he was. What makes his relationship with the Toa is that he respects them, for the exact reasons he hates them: their unrelenting effort and ability to recover and keep fighting for what they believe in. It was something he could only dream of. This ties back into what I said earlier about Krika's regret: he wished that things were different. He wished that the Makuta had not imprisoned themselves to "prisons of shadows" (paraphrasing what he thought to himself at one point), and he wished that Teridax had not become leader, because the moment the Brotherhood followed him, they sealed their own fate.

 

Also, did Greg ever explicitly say that Krika liked being evil? I'd be interested to know if that was the case.

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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but he knew that ultimately, that wasn't the kind of person he was

 

See, this is what bugs me. People can change. People change all the time. I am very much not the person I was four years ago. There is no such thing as a set "kind of person you are" and that's what I hate about what Greg said. He essentially said "an evil character can only ever be evil" as though there's no such thing as actual redemption.

 

I think Krika could have become a good Makuta. I think his sympathy to the Toa's cause and disillusionment with Makuta's plan that lead to him trying to convince the Toa to work against it is so much more interesting than "I don't want this plan because it doesn't benefit me personally".

 

He doesn't need to say Krika liked being evil; clearly, in Greg's book, all evil characters like being evil, because that's all they ever can be by nature of being evil.

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but he knew that ultimately, that wasn't the kind of person he was

 

See, this is what bugs me. People can change. People change all the time. I am very much not the person I was four years ago. There is no such thing as a set "kind of person you are" and that's what I hate about what Greg said. He essentially said "an evil character can only ever be evil" as though there's no such thing as actual redemption.

 

I think Krika could have become a good Makuta. I think his sympathy to the Toa's cause and disillusionment with Makuta's plan that lead to him trying to convince the Toa to work against it is so much more interesting than "I don't want this plan because it doesn't benefit me personally".

 

You're making a bit of a strawman argument here. I never claimed that people can't change, and going by Greg's writing, he doesn't believe that either. But Krika, by the end of his life, was indeed a "kind of person." That was his personality at that point. Perhaps he would have redeemed himself later. We don't know, because he died shortly after. More so, you're twisting Greg's words at bit. Note that he said he doesn't believe a person can suddenly become good, not that it could never happen. As mentioned before, it happened with both Brutaka and Vakama. Greg clearly puts a lot of stock into development having gradually, and doesn't seem to be a believer in people changing drastically without good reason. As an example: Greg felt that Vakama turning evil would be a forced twist and unrealistic, but since the story team decided on that, he had to write it. He put so much effort into making Vakama's transformation feel organic and natural (by planting numerous seeds for it in the books leading up to Web of Shadows) that I would never had believed that the author was against it if I hadn't seen Greg say so numerous times. It felt like the most natural thing in the world. Brutaka went through an arc of redeeming himself after getting a wake-up call from being sent to the Pit and coming face to face with what he'd become (by seeing the Barraki). There is a pattern here. 

 

I believe I showed that Krika was a more nuanced character than just "I'm selfish." If anything, I feel that's part of what makes him so interesting. I could understand if you don't see it that way, though.

He doesn't need to say Krika liked being evil; clearly, in Greg's book, all evil characters like being evil, because that's all they ever can be by nature of being evil.

 

This is a sweeping, and frankly unfair, evaluation of Greg's writing. Many of Greg's characters are "evil" and "villains" due to very understandable motivations, and implying that they are all maniacs who enjoy being evil is a serious discredit to his writing. Tuma, for example, most certainly wasn't evil because he liked being evil- he was ruthless and merciless because he carried the burden of being the last Skrall of his kind and the responsibility to ensure the survival of his entire species from monsters (the Battera) that were intent on wiping them out. Nidhiki was an individual who truly loved being a hero but made one idiotic mistake due to his own pragmatic outlook that made him an outcast. When he attempted to get away from the Dark Hunters and start over, he was mutated into what he hated most. His actions from then on were a result of trauma and intense hatred, not of some inherently evil nature. Tuyet was mentally unstable, but her actions were, at their core, motivated by a genuine desire to help the Matoran, though that desire expressed itself in a twisted and frightening manner. The examples go on. Maybe, instead of liking being evil, Krika acted in such a manner simply as a result of personality defects and a damaging outlook on life. This is a conclusion that can easily be reached by observing his actions and words in the book; nothing Greg says contradicts that. Give him a little credit. 

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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More so, you're twisting Greg's words at bit. Note that he said he doesn't believe a person can suddenly become good, not that it could never happen. As mentioned before, it happened with both Brutaka and Vakama. Greg clearly puts a lot of stock into development having gradually, and doesn't seem to be a believer in people changing drastically without good reason.

 

Well, in that case, he must have misinterpreted the question, because there was certainly nothing in the questions asked nor in the broad concept of redemption stories to imply immediate change.

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More so, you're twisting Greg's words at bit. Note that he said he doesn't believe a person can suddenly become good, not that it could never happen. As mentioned before, it happened with both Brutaka and Vakama. Greg clearly puts a lot of stock into development having gradually, and doesn't seem to be a believer in people changing drastically without good reason.

 

Well, in that case, he must have misinterpreted the question, because there was certainly nothing in the questions asked nor in the broad concept of redemption stories to imply immediate change.

 

Maybe he did. Maybe we're interpreting the question too literally. Maybe he just worded it poorly (wouldn't be the first time). Maybe it's something else. The way I see it, his own writing does not seem to suggest the understanding of the quote that most people here are running with, and so that there is likely more to it. 


toakopaka.png
Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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I don't know if he took the question right or not (not sure how the asker meant it anyways :P), but it might make some sense for him to cut to the chase on denying a quick version in case the questioner did mean that; I got that vibe from this wording, but can't be sure.

 

But how quick is quick? I forget the original wording about Vader, but I seem to recall some sense of 'quick' in his wording there, which at the time made me wonder if he had missed the earlier (subtle) hints to it, making it not so quick. If you miss those, Vader looks like an example of a sudden turnaround, but it seems Lucas intended it very differently, and was letting viewers feel smart if they caught those hints that it wasn't sudden at all. If Greg did catch that, then his Vader example means he's against even gradual turnarounds. :shrugs:

 

I do think the Barraki are probably a bad example for a turnaround at all. :shrugs: (But I can't think of a better example offhand, probably because Greg intentionally writes most of his villains as bad candidates for it, heh.)

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