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Breaking the Mask of Creation?

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#1 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 03:53 PM

What do you all think would happen if the Mask of Creation was broken inside the MU?


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#2 Offline PR0T05T33L

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 04:03 PM

I think I heard somewhere that if that happened, everyone would lose their ability to create new things or something.


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#3 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 04:07 PM

Wouldn't breaking the mask send a surge of creation energy throughout the universe, doing the exact opposite? That's what happens with Time and Life.


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#4 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 04:29 PM

Perhaps it'd create a bunch of things? ... don't ask me what I mean by that. :lol:


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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 05:33 PM

I think I heard somewhere that if that happened, everyone would lose their ability to create new things or something.

That's the one thing we can be fairly certain that it would not do. That would be a draining of creative energies, not an unleashing.

 

As for what it would, I've been stumped by this one for a long time. Sometimes I wish Greg had picked something like Kinetics as the third Legendary power. That's easy -- super explosion. :P And it's easier to see how it underlies the physics of everything. Although it does make sense that you need Time plus Life plus other stuff to have an inhabited universe.

 

I guess it would be either physically making stuff (what stuff, I have no idea), or be sending out knowledge of how to make stuff. Maybe everybody nearby would go insane with massive overload of knowledge of how to invent things?


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#6 Offline PR0T05T33L

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 06:06 PM

I found this on a wiki.

 

"As it was a Legendary Kanohi, if the Mask of Creation was damaged within the Matoran Universe, its powers would begin to slowly leak out and affect its surroundings; If it were to be destroyed while in the Matoran Universe, the inhabitants within would lose all of their creativity."


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#7 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 06:18 PM

Yeah, but that's from The Bionicle Wiki... and let's be honest, BS01 is much more reliable than TBW. :lol: After talking to some of the guys who helped run TBW in the past, I've learned that people have been known to add things based on what they think would happen instead of what is confirmed canon. (And a bunch of the people previously affiliated with TBW have told me that they actually use BS01 now... haha.)

 

 

(Note that I just edited the TBW page to match canon, which is why if you search the text that Protosteel quoted, you won't find it on TBW.)


Edited by Chro, Nov 20 2013 - 06:21 PM.

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#8 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 08:12 PM

Everything would be created. Everything. Everything imaginable. All would get made, and no one would know why. Everything, ranging from jelly donuts to evil death robots.

 

Or everything would instantly get broken. That would really suck.

In all seriousness, I've not the slightest idea.


Edited by Ghabulous Ghoti, Nov 20 2013 - 08:13 PM.

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#9 Offline Omega12

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Posted Nov 20 2013 - 10:25 PM

Most likely while it is releasing energy there would be a golden age where creation boomed, everyone would be creating new and better things. Then when the mask runs or of energy the MU inhabitants would end up like the agori, unable to create anything new.
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#10 Offline Toa Smoke Monster

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Posted Nov 21 2013 - 02:06 PM

Here is what it says on the Mask of Creation's BS01 page:

 

 

 

 The Mask of Creation is one of the three most powerful Kanohi in existence. As such, if the Mask of Creation is destroyed while inside the Matoran Universe, the beings within would lose the ability to create new things.

Edited by Toa Smoke Monster, Nov 21 2013 - 02:07 PM.

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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 21 2013 - 07:15 PM

So BS01 says it too? Well, that's different. :P Still, I'd have to see it confirmed officially. Although BS01 is rarely wrong, it's still a wiki, and this is a particular misconception I've seen many times in S&T, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone thought it was true. Seems to me that the point still stands that that would be a draining of creative energies, not an unleashing.

 

Unless, of course, it's a result of going insane due to learning how to make so many new things... :P


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#12 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Nov 21 2013 - 11:04 PM

Well, BS01 doesn't actually have any information on what would happen if the Ignika were destroyed. That's the one in which we must use supposition as far as I know. For both the Vahi and the MoCreation we have very similar effects of what happens when they are destroyed.Vahi (from BS01):

The mask is so powerful that if damaged, it leaks its powers out, meaning that to destroy the mask would destroy the fabric of time itself within the Matoran Universe. Losing control of the mask would have the same effect.

and

Destruction of the mask would result in the time stream unraveling.

with the effects limited to the MU (unknown effect now that the MU is dead).And the MoCreation:

...if the Mask of Creation is destroyed while inside the Matoran Universe, the beings within would lose the ability to create new things.

What I draw from these is that Legendary Masks act as control points for the Power they contain, destroying them causes the power to become uncontrollable, as losing control of the Vahi and breaking it both destroy MU Timestream, and the inability to create can be rephrased as "unable to harness the power of Creation."TL;DR, breaking the MoCreation doesn't drain the power of Creation from the MU, it just makes that power unharness-able.

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#13 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 09:46 AM

I'm 95% sure Greg said destroying the Ignika would cause everything around it to become alive, much like the curse on Lifer (the GB who touched it and is imprisoned).


Edited by bonesiii, Nov 22 2013 - 09:51 AM.

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#14 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 10:00 AM

I'm 95% sure Greg said destroying the Ignika would cause everything around it to become alive, much like the curse on Lifer (the GB who touched it and is imprisoned).

(Going to assume you meant the Ignika, not the Vahi.) I've heard the same thing several times, though it's likely that I've just heard it from people mentioning it in a similar context to this, as opposed to seeing the original quote from Greg.

In that case I think it's a bit weird that the Ignika causes life to occur, whereas the Vahi causes time to be broken (in a sense), and the Mask of Creation (theoretically) could stop creativity, if we were to continue under the same theme with the powers. So if Greg didn't actually say that everything would be brought to life, then I suspect the Ignika being destroyed would create something akin to a death blast.


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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 10:17 AM

The Vahi does what it does by releasing of too much time energy. When it was just slightly cracked, Vakama witnessed a tiny version of this. It's that released energy that causes "too much time" and linear time goes nuts (according to Vakama's claims to Teridax, which Greg at one point confirmed would happen).

 

The Ignika drains life with the whole countdown thing -- pretty sure this is different from releasing of life energy.

 

The breaking of the Mask of Creation would also release tons of creative energies -- that much we know. The question is just what is the result of all that creative energy being out there.


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#16 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Nov 22 2013 - 05:45 PM

The breaking of the Mask of Creation would also release tons of creative energies -- that much we know. The question is just what is the result of all that creative energy being out there.

According to BS01, the ability to create is lost. If we go with the analogy of breaking the Vahi again, where the release of it's power begins to tear time apart because Time is no longer a controlled/controllable quantity, then breaking the MoCreation causes the power of Creation to become an uncontrolled/uncontrollable quantity: because it can't be controlled, no one can harness it and create new things. The ability isn't lost necessarily in the sense that it goes away, but rather in that you cannot harness the ability. Said another way, it is still there, but you can't do anything about it because the control point of the power has been lost.

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#17 Offline Silverglass

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Posted Nov 23 2013 - 04:49 AM

I just have this mental-image of everything going "cyberform" for half a mio. (For those of you who haven't seen season three of Transformers: Prime, it's this weird phenomenon where deformed masses of metal spread like a virus.) Like, everything just goes flat out haywire; strange structures appear in... everywhere, and objects and such appear in places they have no reason to be. Perhaps new species of flora and fauna run rampant; the elements get mixed up; heck, maybe new toa/matoran appear (yes, I'm being silly at this point). In my head, the MoC breaking would be like setting a hyper five-year-old loose in the Bionicle comic world with an unending box of crayons. Or a caffeinated Tim Burton with a sketchbook. Same dif'. 


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#18 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Nov 23 2013 - 10:49 AM

Perhaps new species of flora and fauna run rampant; the elements get mixed up; heck, maybe new toa/matoran appear (yes, I'm being silly at this point)

The rest of your post could work, but these ones would go under the Mask of Life.


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#19 Offline Silverglass

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Posted Nov 23 2013 - 05:07 PM

 

Perhaps new species of flora and fauna run rampant; the elements get mixed up; heck, maybe new toa/matoran appear (yes, I'm being silly at this point)

The rest of your post could work, but these ones would go under the Mask of Life.

I was just being silly, but yeah, you're right. Also, the Vahi's page says that, if broken, it could affect time throughout the entirety of the MU. I assume the other two masks have the same range? What about outside the MU?


Edited by Silverglass, Nov 23 2013 - 05:08 PM.

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#20 Offline fishers64

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Posted Nov 23 2013 - 07:19 PM

Outside the MU, breaking the masks wouldn't destroy/end creativity/cause wacko time outside the machine, because they are keyed to the Matoran universe. 

 

But I'm not sure that the MU would be affected if you broke the mask away from it. The energy might just dissipate into the outside universe, diluting its effects. The loss of creativity would likely happen anyway, though.

 

Which brings me to a related point. Velika was about to explode yonder fortress with Artahka in it. Explosions can break masks.  Maybe good old Velika wants Matoran and Agori on the same uncreative level?

 

(Didn't I just do that Greg hunt? I don't recall any answer about creativity death, but I need to rerun it to be absolutely sure...)

 

*checks*

 

With this in mind, is Artakha’s Mask of Creation a Legendary Kanohi?

Yes

What would happen if the mask was destroyed then?Well, there’s lots of possiiblities here, but the one that most appeals to me is exactly the situation that prevails on Bara Magna, coincidentally enough -- the loss of the ability to create anything new.

1. Does the loss of the ability to create anything new affects everyone in the Matoran Universe if the Mask of Creation is destroyed?2. Is the Mask of Creation a Legendary Elemental Mask like the Mask of Time and Mask of Life, then? As in Creation being a Legendary Element?3. The Vahi and Ignika are known to be vastly more powerful and harder to control than other masks. Does this also include the Mask of Creation, then?1) If the mask is destroyed while in the MU, yes. And if that happens, it would not affect an MU inhabitant outside of the MU.2) Yes3) Yes. For example, one has to learn to control the mask so that it does not create things you think about subconsciously, or else things you dream of might get made, and you might not want that.


Edited by fishers64, Nov 23 2013 - 09:21 PM.

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#21 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Nov 23 2013 - 09:51 PM

I wonder, based on that quote from Greg, if that means the masks don't really have much of an effect now that the MU has been destroyed. I mean, they obviously still work, but what about in the time that they are broken? Does it just dissipate like fishers said?Though, fishers, the Greg quotes does answer if the loss would happen. It apparently doesn't affect people outside the MU in loss, and now that they are all out...
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#22 Offline Katuko

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Posted Nov 24 2013 - 09:39 AM

When the mask is broken inside the MU, the massive release of energy hits the Great Spirit control systems and propagates throughout the body. The Vahi releases time-manipulating energy which will cause time to go too quickly, too slowly, too... non-linearly for anything to work anymore. Breaking the Vahi outside of the robot, I imagine, would not have quite the same level of destruction because the time energy would have a much more empty space to vanish into. Sure, it would be kind of like a time-nuke, but unless the time energy affected itself and created a stable vortex of ever-occurring time dilation at the point of destruction, I think the rest of the universe would just feel a few small anomalies. For example, the "blast wave" could pass by a planet, and the inhabitants would notice time slowing or speeding up for a minute or so before the wave passed on to space beyond the planet. As it travels, it would also become more and more diluted and less effective, and possibly be "spent" for every object it affects on the way.

 

The drain effect of the Ignika is a programmed ability of the mask when it is functioning. It absorbs life energy and thus kills everything in the vicinity. This is tied directly into the MU, so even though the Ignika can still drain someone's life force outside of the MU, it does not have access to the expansive MU systems and cannot drain everything in the "universe" at once. If it's broken, it will release life energy, causing an effect very much like "Lifer", as bonesiii calls him. I imagine this too will have diminished effect outside of the MU, since I doubt there is an infinite amount of energy in the mask no matter how powerful it may seem when observing the effects up-close.

 

Creation is a strange one. The mask allows Arthakha to create perfect designs with barely a notion of what it is he actually wants to create, and it has the ability to create raw materials for him as well. The Mask of Creation seems to me to be an artifact that can scan the universe for a tremendous amount of technical information, and make up designs from scratch based on it. The secondary component is the ability to actually create these things out of the blue, fueled only by the mask's own power. In terms of power/energy, it seems like the inorganic and non-sentient equivalent of the Ignika. The Ignika creates, manipulates and destroys living things (or uses its energy to make even inorganic material transform or come to life) while the Mask of Creation goes about the issue in a manner that is less capable of life-creation. Arthakha managed to create some living things, after all, but he quickly gave up on it. I would have thought that destroying this mask would release all the "creation energy", thus forcing a massive amount of inorganic material and objects to appear. I vaguely recall seeing Greg mention that the mask would destroy the creative spirit of the MU species, though, so most likely this stems from the mask energy stimulating their inventive thoughts to such a level that they just break.


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#23 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Nov 24 2013 - 01:03 PM

I vaguely recall seeing Greg mention that the mask would destroy the creative spirit of the MU species, though, so most likely this stems from the mask energy stimulating their inventive thoughts to such a level that they just break.

Maybe it's like a power surge? Too much energy released (or absorbed) and it stops working.


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#24 Offline DimensionPlant

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 05:05 AM

 

I vaguely recall seeing Greg mention that the mask would destroy the creative spirit of the MU species, though, so most likely this stems from the mask energy stimulating their inventive thoughts to such a level that they just break.

Maybe it's like a power surge? Too much energy released (or absorbed) and it stops working.

 

Yeah, it could be like using an grafic-card to the point of total overheating (and melting down) cause your pc can't cool it fast enough

 

 

off-topic:

When the mask is broken inside the MU, the massive release of energy hits the Great Spirit control systems and propagates throughout the body. The Vahi releases time-manipulating energy which will cause time to go too quickly, too slowly, too... non-linearly for anything to work anymore. Breaking the Vahi outside of the robot, I imagine, would not have quite the same level of destruction because the time energy would have a much more empty space to vanish into. Sure, it would be kind of like a time-nuke, but unless the time energy affected itself and created a stable vortex of ever-occurring time dilation at the point of destruction, I think the rest of the universe would just feel a few small anomalies. For example, the "blast wave" could pass by a planet, and the inhabitants would notice time slowing or speeding up for a minute or so before the wave passed on to space beyond the planet. As it travels, it would also become more and more diluted and less effective, and possibly be "spent" for every object it affects on the way.

Cause it's Rather interesting question:

 

How do you notice time slowing down or speeding up?

I'd think if every object is hit with time on a nearby planet for instance no one will notice it, cause for all them, everything is percieved at normal speed. You need someone, that is not affected to notice the slowing down or speeding up of time.

(or how you described it with the blast wave passing by: it will cause only little time difference, declining the further you get from the blast (only by seconds or so) and it would be over before you can even notice it)

 

If time is no longer chronologiclly percieved it's obvious. Cause if you eat a cake before you or someone else bakes or buys it

(or before you finish Portal) you can notice the events being out of order, cause as soon as you try eat the newly baked or bought cake it will disappear (and subsequent meaning the cake is a lie).


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#25 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 09:34 AM

How do you notice time slowing down or speeding up?

Given the unstable nature this energy wave would have, I think the most likely scenario is that it won't affect everything it hits equally. I don't recall what sort of time distortion that Vakama witnessed from the outside, but I got the impression that it was fluctuating? A time wave washing past would probably make some things go slow and some things go fast, with very unpredictable results seen through an observer's eyes.

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#26 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:28 PM

It would be...messy. 

 

In a small area, the natural order of things had apparently gone insane. Plant life was growing at a fantastic rate, then dying before his eyes. Rahi that swam too close would stop dead, every life process seemingly suspended, for long moments before moving on. The effect seemed to come in waves, rippling a short distance through the water before dissipating.

 

While you might not notice it while you were inside it, you would probably notice it after it had passed, because of all the dead stuff around you. You would also probably feel older or younger - the book says that Bionicle beings feel it when they age rapidly.  


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#27 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 02:10 AM

I vaguely recall seeing Greg mention that the mask would destroy the creative spirit of the MU species, though, so most likely this stems from the mask energy stimulating their inventive thoughts to such a level that they just break.

Maybe it's like a power surge? Too much energy released (or absorbed) and it stops working.


Just remembered this other tidbit that might spark a bit more insight into the effects of the breakage: Mata Nui and Makuta can Create things independent of the MoCreation. If we look at the Legendary Masks as "anchors" for their respective powers we can say, by analogy, that breaking each mask is like taking a ship off its anchor in a violent storm. Life evolves and devolves and mutates and changes without any control. Time tears itself apart. Creation, along the lines of the other two, is unleashed in a potential that cannot be controlled (this would be the "surge" some people have hypothesized), and the effect of this surge is to disable the ability to Create in everyone who relies on the Mask as an anchor, which is just about everyone who lived in the Matoran Universe. Mata Nui and the Makuta, on the other hand, have their own anchors for the power of Creation, and so are not affected by the "surge" or "storm". Thoughts?

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#28 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 03:16 PM

I imagine that if Makuta was caught up in the destruction of the Mask of Creation, it would affect him as well. Apart from havin ga massive amount of other powers, there is nothing really special about the Makuta species that would make them resist the blast of energy. Likewise, Mata Nui as the Great Spirit robot may not be affected too severely unless the energy flows into the Core Processor, but Mata Nui is otherwise just another of the Great Beings' creations. The mask that they made will likely affect all of their creations equally, just as pretty much any other mask can and will work on beings even outside the MU.

What could be more interesting to know is whether the Mask of Creation can mess up the creative thought processes of someone who does not have a bio-mechanical brain. It depends on much organic material the GBs used in Matoran and such, I guess.

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#29 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 04:16 PM

But is it really a "wave" of energy? =/ We don't really know how "Creation" works as an Elemental Power, minus that it seems to have no physical manifestation (BS01) and that the prime examples are the formation of inorganic objects without raw materials, and the creation of mental schematics. The way I've been thinking about it is that the Power is primarily manifested in the mind and that breaking the Mask has far more mental repercussions than it will physical. The Makuta and Mata Nui, being able to create separately from the Mask, would thus be warded against its effects by not being mentally "tied in" to the same creative source as everyone else.
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#30 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 04:51 PM

If it cracks and everything messes up because of it, it stands to reason that some energy is flowing out. The mask has never been stated to "feed" creative juices into the MU, after all, it's just another extremely potent artifact like the Vahi and Ignika. When those masks crack, the consensus seems to be that their energy will be released in a big explosion, which can easily be described as a "blast wave" of energy that affects whatever it hits. It's like radiation - it doesn't need to be visible to have an effect on things.

If you are a Matoran who is far enough away when the mask is destroyed, I do not think it would have any effect on you.

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#31 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 10:11 PM

Just remembered this other tidbit that might spark a bit more insight into the effects of the breakage: Mata Nui and Makuta can Create things independent of the MoCreation. If we look at the Legendary Masks as "anchors" for their respective powers we can say, by analogy, that breaking each mask is like taking a ship off its anchor in a violent storm. Life evolves and devolves and mutates and changes without any control. Time tears itself apart

This idea's been going around for years but has likewise been disproved for years by the Vahi. Time worked just fine before it was made. Life and creativity would work just fine before those masks, too -- no, it has to be the releasing of energies that messes things up, like the overload idea earlier; overload a brain with creative energies and it might just "break" so far as creativity goes. And the Vahi tears time apart because of tons of time energy exploding and doing the tearing, etc.

 

Besides, the Vahi also shows that only time in the MU is affected, and it's just a robot with an inside, in a universe with time that is unaffected by the Vahi's breaking. No anchor would at all be necessary to have the inside of a glorified box experience time. It's not like it's a pocket dimension.

 

IMO it's more like the MU itself is an anchor for the energies of its legendary masks, or a container, so that if they break inside it, the energy stays anchored to the box rather than harming the entire actual universe.

 

Mata Nui and the Makuta, on the other hand, have their own anchors for the power of Creation, and so are not affected by the "surge" or "storm". Thoughts?

Not sure why you bring the Makuta into it, but if Mata Nui could still create things after destruction of this mask, that would be because his processors would be beyond the "MU" -- but I don't think we know either of these things. The Makuta presumably would lose their power to create too, assuming they were in the MU at the time.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 21 2013 - 10:14 PM.

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#32 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 22 2013 - 06:11 PM

Just remembered this other tidbit that might spark a bit more insight into the effects of the breakage: Mata Nui and Makuta can Create things independent of the MoCreation. If we look at the Legendary Masks as "anchors" for their respective powers we can say, by analogy, that breaking each mask is like taking a ship off its anchor in a violent storm. Life evolves and devolves and mutates and changes without any control. Time tears itself apart

This idea's been going around for years but has likewise been disproved for years by the Vahi. Time worked just fine before it was made. Life and creativity would work just fine before those masks, too -- no, it has to be the releasing of energies that messes things up, like the overload idea earlier; overload a brain with creative energies and it might just "break" so far as creativity goes. And the Vahi tears time apart because of tons of time energy exploding and doing the tearing, etc.
 
Besides, the Vahi also shows that only time in the MU is affected, and it's just a robot with an inside, in a universe with time that is unaffected by the Vahi's breaking. No anchor would at all be necessary to have the inside of a glorified box experience time. It's not like it's a pocket dimension.
 
IMO it's more like the MU itself is an anchor for the energies of its legendary masks, or a container, so that if they break inside it, the energy stays anchored to the box rather than harming the entire actual universe.
 

Mata Nui and the Makuta, on the other hand, have their own anchors for the power of Creation, and so are not affected by the "surge" or "storm". Thoughts?

Not sure why you bring the Makuta into it, but if Mata Nui could still create things after destruction of this mask, that would be because his processors would be beyond the "MU" -- but I don't think we know either of these things. The Makuta presumably would lose their power to create too, assuming they were in the MU at the time.


It's just a way of thinking about it: just as your anchor becoming loose exposes you to far more danger than before in a storm (though even riding at anchor can be dangerous, like using the Vahi), breaking the masks exposes everyone to the full storm of an element unleashed.

I bring the Makuta into it because they're said to also be able to create independent of the MoCreation's influence. Or at least, BS01 states:
 

Creation is an important value in the Matoran Universe, and is intrinsically tied to the minds of its inhabitants. Though lacking a physical manifestation, Creation is an ability possessed by all within the universe. If the Mask of Creation were to be destroyed, almost everyone would suddenly lose their ability to create new things. Mata Nui and the Makuta were given the ability to create independent of the mask.


So there's the mental connection, and the lack of a physical manifestation. Since we're all pretty much agreed on going with a surge (or similar) idea, I guess a circuit or something in their brains gets burned out?

Edited by Zox, Dec 22 2013 - 06:11 PM.

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#33 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 22 2013 - 08:14 PM

It's just a way of thinking about it: just as your anchor becoming loose exposes you to far more danger than before in a storm (though even riding at anchor can be dangerous, like using the Vahi), breaking the masks exposes everyone to the full storm of an element unleashed.

But would you think of my ability to use a match to light a candle as "anchored" to a powerful bomb that may be nearby? And if the bomb explodes, killing me, so that I now can't light a candle, would you think of it as a way of thinking of it to say that the loss of the bomb took away my ability to use fire? It's kinda like that -- the Vahi/MoCreation/Ignika aren't really anchors for time, creativity, or life at all. They're just powerful objects containing vast amounts of energy that also has power over those things, which if released would be dangerous/deadly.

 

I bring the Makuta into it because they're said to also be able to create independent of the MoCreation's influence. Or at least, BS01 states:
 

Quote

Creation is an important value in the Matoran Universe, and is intrinsically tied to the minds of its inhabitants. Though lacking a physical manifestation, Creation is an ability possessed by all within the universe. If the Mask of Creation were to be destroyed, almost everyone would suddenly lose their ability to create new things. Mata Nui and the Makuta were given the ability to create independent of the mask.

So there's the mental connection, and the lack of a physical manifestation.

This simply means that both Mata Nui and the Makuta have the power to materialize things that is also contained in the mask; versus just a mental ability of creativity that everybody has. Actually, Toa and to a tiny extent Turaga also have that, for their elements, independant of the mask, please note. This doesn't imply an anchor; quite the opposite. It means that the power exists independently of the mask, just like the time power existed before the Vahi was made. :) But that that power can be broken if the mask's energies interfere with it from the mask breaking.

 

Yes, it's probably that certain synaptic pathways in their brain become burned out due to sudden overloading.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 22 2013 - 08:15 PM.

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#34 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 10:11 AM

 

It's just a way of thinking about it: just as your anchor becoming loose exposes you to far more danger than before in a storm (though even riding at anchor can be dangerous, like using the Vahi), breaking the masks exposes everyone to the full storm of an element unleashed.

But would you think of my ability to use a match to light a candle as "anchored" to a powerful bomb that may be nearby? And if the bomb explodes, killing me, so that I now can't light a candle, would you think of it as a way of thinking of it to say that the loss of the bomb took away my ability to use fire?

 

Except that the Legendary Masks are intended to help control and maintain their respective powers, whereas a bomb isn't used to help maintain the power of fire used to light a candle... so that metaphor's a bit off, at least. :lol:
 


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#35 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 11:04 AM

It's just a way of thinking about it: just as your anchor becoming loose exposes you to far more danger than before in a storm (though even riding at anchor can be dangerous, like using the Vahi), breaking the masks exposes everyone to the full storm of an element unleashed.

But would you think of my ability to use a match to light a candle as "anchored" to a powerful bomb that may be nearby? And if the bomb explodes, killing me, so that I now can't light a candle, would you think of it as a way of thinking of it to say that the loss of the bomb took away my ability to use fire?

Except that the Legendary Masks are intended to help control and maintain their respective powers, whereas a bomb isn't used to help maintain the power of fire used to light a candle... so that metaphor's a bit off, at least. :lol:

No, that's my whole point -- it is not canonically accurate to say that the masks "maintain their power", when that power is present in something else. I don't think it's off, with one exception -- that apparently there can only be one Legendary Mask per power (or at least that's how it's been done so far), which wouldn't be true of the bomb analogy (but if you had a universe governed by some absolute rule that there can only be one bomb, it would work :P).

 

In fact that's why I made the analogy, to help explain why this idea that they are an anchor for the power -- that the power flows from the mask into beings halfway across the universe, as it were, to explain how other beings can use minor versions of the power -- is apparently inaccurate. It's a common fan myth, but it has no actual in-story evidence and the Vahi is strong evidence against it. It keeps going only because fans keep saying it, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure you meant to say that, though, so correct if I misunderstood.

 

They do control the power, but so does a bomb control the power of making fire just as a match does. Just a lot more of it. Make sense? :)

 

Edit: Another way of saying this, assuming I'm reading into your wording right, is that there are two main views of destruction of Legendary Masks -- the myth, that the existence of the mask is necessary to maintain the power, and the actual explanation, that the destruction of the mask just releases way too much of the power to be safe. The problem with the myth is that time should have been messed up prior to the Vahi being made, but the Vahi being made had no noticeable effect beyond "now we've got a really powerful mask to control time".


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 23 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#36 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 02:24 AM

Alright, I wasn't aware that there was an "anchor" idea already out there. What I've been saying makes sense in my head, but it apparently isn't translating at all. I know the Masks aren't integral to having the power, neither are anchors needed for for having storms. You can ride a storm with or without an anchor; the power exists with or without a masks. Just pray your anchor doesn't slip if you use one, or your mask doesn't break. The power is the storm, and the storm doesn't depend on the anchor, the anchor just helps you ride it out as opposed to going without it. I don't know if that helps you get in my head at all.

This simply means that both Mata Nui and the Makuta have the power to materialize things that is also contained in the mask; versus just a mental ability of creativity that everybody has. Actually, Toa and to a tiny extent Turaga also have that, for their elements, independant of the mask, please note. This doesn't imply an anchor; quite the opposite. It means that the power exists independently of the mask, just like the time power existed before the Vahi was made. :) But that that power can be broken if the mask's energies interfere with it from the mask breaking.


Wait, where did them having the ability to materialize things just like the mask come from? The way I read that was that, on breaking the mask, only MN and the Makuta would be able harness creativity. It seems more like a failsafe option. GB's create the Mask, but write Mata Nui's code so that he's immune to the breaking of the Mask (like making electronics hardened against radiation) so that their whole enterprise won't be ruined by the Masks breakage. MN and the Makuta being able to resist that would make sense as a failsafe as they would possibly be able to salvage the situation and allow MN's mission to continue. Of course, why they wouldn't extend this hardening as just a natural component I don't know, not that I understand why they would put a Mask in their Universe that could so easily ruin it =P

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#37 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 06:23 AM

Wait, where did them having the ability to materialize things just like the mask come from? The way I read that was that, on breaking the mask, only MN and the Makuta would be able harness creativity. It seems more like a failsafe option. GB's create the Mask, but write Mata Nui's code so that he's immune to the breaking of the Mask (like making electronics hardened against radiation)

Checking back on the part you're asking about there, my logic may have slipped a geartooth or two when I said "This simply means that both Mata Nui and the Makuta have the power to materialize things" -- they do have that power (or the Makuta at least do, with viruses, and Toa, which I added, definitely materialize), but that might not be what "this" in the quote I was responding to meant. Otherwise, it seems now like what you're saying here is essentially what I theorize, but we're having miscommunication and thinking we're disagreeing when maybe we aren't?

 

But I'm still having trouble seeing how "anchor" is a good analogy for what you're talking about, which would seem more like a Faraday cage -- a shield. (I was thinking Mata Nui would be outside the Faraday Cage that contains the explosion inside the MU-proper, but not sure about the Makuta. Probably something like it built into antidermis, since the GBs knew one of them would be needed for the Reforming of Spherus Magna?)

 

To be clear, these were the main quotes that started me down that line of reasoning where I thought you might have been alluding to the common fan idea, but now I'm not so sure since you said you weren't aware of that one.
 

Mata Nui and the Makuta, on the other hand, have their own anchors for the power of Creation, and so are not affected by the "surge" or "storm". Thoughts?

But is it really a "wave" of energy? =/ We don't really know how "Creation" works as an Elemental Power, minus that it seems to have no physical manifestation (BS01) and that the prime examples are the formation of inorganic objects without raw materials, and the creation of mental schematics. The way I've been thinking about it is that the Power is primarily manifested in the mind and that breaking the Mask has far more mental repercussions than it will physical. The Makuta and Mata Nui, being able to create separately from the Mask, would thus be warded against its effects by not being mentally "tied in" to the same creative source as everyone else.

That last sentence there especially. I don't see how you square "not tied to the same creative source" with "not going with the myth that 'creative power flows from the mask to everybody who is creative from MU". This kind of reads like a contradiction to me; it sounds like you were saying the MoCreation was the source of creativity in the MU (which would mean the Vahi would have to be the source of time stability/control, which it can't be). If everybody has their own "source" in their minds and these two types simply happen to be shielded from the explosion, then "everybody else" doesn't have a "same source." Right?

 

What I've been saying makes sense in my head, but it apparently isn't translating at all. I know the Masks aren't integral to having the power, neither are anchors needed for for having storms. You can ride a storm with or without an anchor; the power exists with or without a masks. Just pray your anchor doesn't slip if you use one, or your mask doesn't break. The power is the storm, and the storm doesn't depend on the anchor

But what, then, is the 'storm' in this analogy? Since the only thing I can see that it would be (the crazy energies released by the breaking of the mask) does depend on the mask (which you associated with an anchor). Anchors for ships don't create storms. The storm would be there whether the ship had an anchor or not. But in this case, the "storm" or explosion can only happen if you first make a mask, then break it. In fact it would be better, if you ignore other needs for the moment and just focus on surviving the storm, not to ever have the anchor. The making of the Vahi increased the potential for such destructive storms from 2 to 3; arguably everybody would have been better off if Vakama had left it unmade.

 

So I still don't see how anchor is a good term for it. :shrugs: Whatever, semantics, just curious if you're clear on some of the things I'm bringing up, in case not, and for the fun of it. ^_^

Note: I do see the "storm" as generated constantly by the mask, so not created when it breaks, but created when the mask is created, and contained in the mask. Sort of like making a bomb with perfect security against disarming it; the disparate ingredients previously were not that dangerous, but once you put them together you either have to keep the bomb from being triggered, ever, or it will explode (all attempts to disarm it would result in that). This point is just a theory of mine and technically irrelevant here (I've posted it before to explain why the slight crack on the Vahi releases active time power, but cracks in other masks don't).

 

Prior to the making of the mask, I see the Legendary powers as likely root-programming functions present in all protodermis molecules, so essential to all and the tapping into them can have an overriding effect on nearly anything else (whatever falls under the categories). But I don't see them as in a "storm" state normally. Theoretically in my interpretation, you could generate a "storm inside a mask" for any power, if you had GB-level programming abilities of protodermis, but nobody bothers since the other powers aren't root powers, and the GBs apparently put lockouts on the option. (Possibly unbreakable lockouts... or maybe it's just that nobody knows how to try.) The benefit of having the constantly-active state inside the masks in my view is instant control, whereas other masks may take a second or two to power up, and won't achieve the same potential. To maximize this they apparently also put a lockout on having toned-down versions of the actual control (though sub-powers like Voporak's are possible); it's either power level 9 or nothing.

 

I'm summarizing this to leadin to my reply to this:

 

not that I understand why they would put a Mask in their Universe that could so easily ruin it =P

I think it's just their Safeguards R Us nature. These are, in my theory, root powers, so having one (and only one, but optionally zero until one is made) object that could control each freely, instantly, and absolutely would be the ultimate trump card against any powerful glitching units. They surrounded both of the ones they made with other layers upon layers of safeguards, so they are pretty safe. But they apparently agreed with you about Time, unless it was intentionally destined that the Vahi would be made later.

 

MoCreation though seems like the least hazardous of the three. Once you assume that the rules for these Legendary Masks as we have them are necessary, then it seems to me kind of easy to see why they made it and the Ignika. MoC, because the downside wasn't instantly fatal and not so torturous; people just lose ability to be creative. Ignika, because Mata Nui is essential to Reforming SM and saving the lives there, so if he was ever really sick, or died, it's the last resort.

 

It's the question of why the rules have to be that way that I think is the confusing part (why not have a rule against instant and absolute power, in favor of a slow buildup of power, for example, but then it might prove TOO slow). But hopefully these comments help shed some theoretical light on that. :)

 

 

Also, the description you originally gave about the ship breaking loose from the anchor said that then time unravels. But where is the ship going, then? It's a big box in a universe where time keeps on going just fine. It can't be that a connection to time-stability breaks and then the MU drifts into some kind of chaotic-time realm between dimensions; it is just a big object sitting in a stable universe. This is why I mentioned that it's not a pocket dimension. It has to be that a "wave of energy" is released (your question there is another reason I thought you were disagreeing :shrugs:) which acts upon the time inside that box, actively breaking it, rather than passively stopping the box from drifting into an already-existing storm-tossed ocean. See the (apparent) difference? :)

 

If I've continued to miss your point, my bad. :P


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 24 2013 - 06:30 AM.

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#38 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 24 2013 - 03:15 PM

Wait, where did them having the ability to materialize things just like the mask come from? The way I read that was that, on breaking the mask, only MN and the Makuta would be able harness creativity. It seems more like a failsafe option. GB's create the Mask, but write Mata Nui's code so that he's immune to the breaking of the Mask (like making electronics hardened against radiation)

Checking back on the part you're asking about there, my logic may have slipped a geartooth or two when I said "This simply means that both Mata Nui and the Makuta have the power to materialize things" -- they do have that power (or the Makuta at least do, with viruses, and Toa, which I added, definitely materialize), but that might not be what "this" in the quote I was responding to meant. Otherwise, it seems now like what you're saying here is essentially what I theorize, but we're having miscommunication and thinking we're disagreeing when maybe we aren't?


Well, when it comes to the MoCreation, it can make inorganic object without a need for raw materials: just makes them out of "Creative Elemental Energy" or something. My bit there is that I don't think Makuta or Toa can do explicitly that. The Makuta use their engineered viruses and liquid proto to make Rahi and can also use them to modify existing beings. The Toa form their element from an elemental energy (I think I've seen you explain this in other topics as them accessing the energy, and then the energy is transformed into the element). The Toa point is elementally the same process, but I think it is Elementally different.

Mata Nui: we still don't know the full extent of his powers, we never really got to see him doing stuff in his actual body. I wouldn't be surprised if he could harness the Creation Element without a mask as easily as Artakha now does with the Mask.

Safeguards R Us


I just had to pull that out.

I'm just gonna give up on trying to get things out of the labyrinth of my head and just go with "Sure, why not?" to the rest of the post XD

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#39 Offline RahkshiToa88

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Posted Dec 26 2013 - 09:42 AM

I am think if it broke, everyone's creative energies would go out of whack and beings would feel super creative one moment and not creative at all the next. But who would want to break the Mask of Creation? also, what is its name? Mask of Time: Vahi, Mask of Life: Ignika. What's the Mask of Creation's name?


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#40 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 26 2013 - 10:13 AM

beings would feel super creative one moment and not creative at all the next

I'd agree with that; that'd be the feeling of a burnout. I wonder if the effect of being briefly (less than a second, I'd think) supercreative might make them immediately try to make a bunch of stuff but make it all wrong since they'd also just lost the ability.

 

But who would want to break the Mask of Creation?

If someone was the enemy of everybody in the MU and yet merciful enough not to inflict time chaos or living light rays and mud puddles on them, it would be a way to effectively stop them from coming up with any new solutions to problems you inflict later.

 

But the mask could break without someone intending it to, in an accident. Artakha might trip and fall on his face one day. :P

 

Currently, he's in a fortress that Velika is apparently trying to collapse, which might destroy it as a side effect too, but not sure what would happen, because he's not in the MU.

 

As to its name, we don't know, but I've got an open topic in this forum right now asking for suggestions/ thoughts on suggestions. :) We might never get an official name, but some of the suggestions there might be able to be canonized (most wouldn't though).


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