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Decoy Tuyet Inconsistencies


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#1 Offline Exitium

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 02:42 PM

I was thinking about Tuyet the other day, trying to piece together her story in mind, when I realized a strange inconsistency in the story, specifically regarding her decoy in the Pit.  Before I begin, let's take a look at Tuyet's involvement in the story so far.

 

Tuyet was a member of the Toa Mangai and started killing Matoran on Metru Nui to frame the Dark Hunters (who were coming after her to get the Nui Stone).  Lhikan destroyed the Nui Stone and embedded it in her armor.  The Order of Mata Nui placed her in a pocket dimension with no Toa and put a Tuyet from an alternate dimension in the Pit as a decoy.  The decoy died in the Great Cataclysm, and Teridax attempted to use the Staff of Artakha to restore the Nui Stone using fragments from the decoy's corpse.

 

Here is where we encounter the problem: why was there a corpse?

 

Theoretically, the decoy Tuyet should have transported to the Red Star after her death.  If we're looking at real world explanations, I'd say that Greg simply hadn't thought of the Red Star revival mechanism yet.  I can think of only two in-universe hypotheses: 1) Because the decoy was from an alternate dimension, the Red Star didn't recognize her, or 2) The decoy died outside the Matoran Universe, and (as suggested by some on BZP) the Red Star only works on those inside the MU.

 

Neither hypothesis accounts for why Teridax went looking for her corpse in the first place.  As an inhabitant of the MU, corpses should be an unusual sight for him, given that as long as there is a body, the corpse should be teleported to the Red Star.  That also raises the question of why he needed Matoro for his Mask of Reanimation or why such a mask would be necessary in the MU at all.

 

Any thoughts?


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#2 Offline Ghabulous Ghoti

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 04:56 PM

The whole concept of a "Mask of Reanimation" is really odd now that I think about it.


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#3 Offline Watcher on the Walls

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 05:34 PM

The whole concept of a "Mask of Reanimation" is really odd now that I think about it.

That's why even Matoro was scared of it. 

 

But 2 is correct because the Red Star only works for the MU and the pit is outside of it.


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#4 Offline LordofBionicles

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 05:58 PM

Yeah I agree that the decoy must have been outside of the MU and that's why it didn't happen. It's a really interesting point you have about the Tryna now that we know there should be no corpses, I wonder how will this become one of the many BIONICLE reasons/excuses.


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#5 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 07:06 PM

1) Because the decoy was from an alternate dimension, the Red Star didn't recognize her, or 2) The decoy died outside the Matoran Universe, and (as suggested by some on BZP) the Red Star only works on those inside the MU.

The decoy was inside the giant robot, in the Order prison, and Hydraxon was confirmed to be taken up to the RS (he died there too), so I'd say option #2 is out. Your first guess may work. But we really don't know what kind of condition a body has to be in to be teleported up. This apparent inconsistency was talked about when we first learned what the RS does. One theory we came up with was that the brain had to be intact, because the knowledge from old brains is apparently downloaded into new brains on the RS (if a new body is necessary).

 

But we don't actually know. It's even possible she was just under a type of ore that blocked the teleporter beam, a plot device often used in Star Trek. All kinds of possibilities.

 

Neither hypothesis accounts for why Teridax went looking for her corpse in the first place.  As an inhabitant of the MU, corpses should be an unusual sight for him, given that as long as there is a body, the corpse should be teleported to the Red Star.

It's possible he knew about the Order's pocket dimension ploy somehow, and if you're right that the decoy can't go to the RS due to being alternate, he might know that too. :shrugs: Both do seem unlikely.

 

What was the timing of real Tuyet's return? Might Teridax have found out about the alternate thing from sensing her presence? Or did she only return later? Foggy on that... The BS01 Tuyet page on it is confusing... I'd look it up in the timeline but short on... time... lol...

 

That also raises the question of why he needed Matoro for his Mask of Reanimation or why such a mask would be necessary in the MU at all.

I dunno about the first part, but to the second, it's widely believed that there is a time delay of unknown length between death and being taken up to the RS (at the very least there has to be some minutes delay, as Lhikan didn't just disappear). The Tryna would work on corpses who were still within that time period. (It's possible it's of variable length too, if the RS can only teleport up one at a time and other bodies are being detected that just died, so there'd be a waiting list.)

 

But 2 is correct because the Red Star only works for the MU and the pit is outside of it.

Where are you getting that certainty from? Last I heard Greg still had not revealed the answer, despite actually answering a question about it (with something like "we don't know"). But the pit IS inside the relevant part -- the giant robot. Whether you want to call that "Matoran Universe" or not is semantic; it's a location inside the robot that is managed by beings of the Matoran Universe. We do not know if "MU" canonically refers just to the interiors of the domes or everything inside the robot.

 

I have tended to assume the RS does work at least for any place connected to the MU, which would include Mata Nui, Voya Nui (via the volcanic cord), Mahri Nui, and the ocean floor around Mahri Nui including the Pit.


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#6 Offline Omega12

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 07:29 PM

Maybe the decoy wasn't beamed up because the beam hit the water and dispersed, never reaching her. That's a pretty simple explanation.
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#7 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 01 2013 - 08:59 PM

I suspect it was simply an inconsistency caused by the creation of the red star -> rebirth story (unless that had been planned already, in which case it was of a lack of forethought).


Edited by BobaFett2, Dec 01 2013 - 09:00 PM.

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 12:12 AM

Most likely a lack of forethought, I think. But I do agree that she wasn't taken up to the RS due to being from an alternate universe. That makes the most sense to me, seeing as she's the only AU being we've seen die within the "Prime Universe." 

However, I may have an answer as to why Terry knew the corpse was there to be reanimated. The Maxilos robot he possessed was likely inside the Pit and he noticed the remains on his way out.

 

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#9 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:27 AM

I suspect it was simply an inconsistency caused by the creation of the red star -> rebirth story (unless that had been planned already, in which case it was of a lack of forethought).

Yes and no, apparently -- Greg said in a recent interview that he came up with the idea because he basically wanted to do a story about zombies in space (in Bionicle) -- so not something that would have been in the original story bible. The RS solution itself was probably recent (maybe going as far back as 2007 though because that's when it was revealed that Gali knew there were beings in there... but I suspect that was just one of those things Greg throws out there to come up with what it means later).

 

However, the question of why we don't see graveyards in Bionicle has been around since at least 2003 when people were wondering what happened to Jaller's (original) body. (Of course, the RS has only made that question more confusing lol, since Jaller was revived by other means, but I've got a theory on that in my retelling.) Greg seems to have implied that they always planned something unusual to happen about this, because they continued to refrain from simply saying "they buried them offscreen" for all those years. They just might not have settled on the Red Star as the explanation until later.

 

However, I may have an answer as to why Terry knew the corpse was there to be reanimated. The Maxilos robot he possessed was likely inside the Pit and he noticed the remains on his way out.

A sensible suggestion. And they were there (the metal parts with the shards embedded) for a thousand years. Surely in all that time the robot would check the old Pit to see if any escapees were playing the "last place they'd think to look" card. So could have seen the corpse many times.


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#10 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:01 PM

Terdiax can not have known about the decoy, because if he did he would know that the corpse wouldn't hold any fragments from the real Nui Stone at all. I never liked the Red Star revival thing, and since it was a recent development in a serial that never continued I would have to say it is just an oversight. I just wonder how they got the alternate Tuyet to keep quiet. And one would think that the dimension they pulled her from would just face the same issue the Core Dimension would have if they hadn't made a decoy; but I guess they didn't care. Opens up the nasty thought that people from the alternate dimensions could be popping in to swap out characters or take items too, though. They had a Brutaka too.
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#11 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:06 PM

Terdiax can not have known about the decoy, because if he did he would know that the corpse wouldn't hold any fragments from the real Nui Stone at all. I never liked the Red Star revival thing, and since it was a recent development in a serial that never continued I would have to say it is just an oversight. I just wonder how they got the alternate Tuyet to keep quiet. And one would think that the dimension they pulled her from would just face the same issue the Core Dimension would have if they hadn't made a decoy; but I guess they didn't care. Opens up the nasty thought that people from the alternate dimensions could be popping in to swap out characters or take items too, though. They had a Brutaka too.

The Order of Mata Nui is generally considered to be good, even if they're willing to go to the extremes they did with regards to the existence of Artakha. I suspect that they would have taken her from a universe of the sort in which she was planning on using the stone after informing the parallel Order.


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#12 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:26 PM

Terdiax can not have known about the decoy, because if he did he would know that the corpse wouldn't hold any fragments from the real Nui Stone at all.

That assumes that knowledge that it's an alternate Tuyet absolutely requires knowledge that they put normal crystal fragments in too. It's easily possible he might learn of the one and not the other, and hope that they got the decoy from an alternate universe with the Nui Stone. Although that would surely make him wonder why they'd bother at all. But it's possible.

 

IMO it's more likely he knew there was a corpse, so assumed that any of the explanations for why the corpse didn't disappear were the case, probably because corpses sometimes fail to disappear in the MU all the time. So if someone has died and been there for a while, it would make sense to check for the body. He probably just knew there was a body because of Maxilos, and didn't care why -- he'd just want the Nui Stone.

 

BTW, another simple explanation is that the RS's death sensor (or the MU's or however that works) isn't totally reliable, even if the teleportation would have worked had it been sensed. Given the state of apparent disrepair and jury-rigged attempts at workarounds described for the RS, perfect reliability is hardly what I'd expect. It may have just been glitching that day. Who knows?

 

I suspect that they would have taken her from a universe of the sort in which she was planning on using the stone after informing the parallel Order.

Or maybe even a Universe where there was no Order or the Order would be insufficient to stop her evil plans -- so it could be a mercy for that dimension.

 

As for how they got that Tuyet to stay quiet, probably threats. Or... it's a prison, there's no reason to assume all the cells are within shouting range of others, and who would she tell except other prisoners who couldn't take the knowledge beyond their own cells anyways? In fact, who says she even knows she's in another universe? She might just know mysterious people kidnapped her and threw her in a cell. Plus, people in prison usually aren't trusted -- "That's what they all say."


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#13 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:38 PM

I suspect that they would have taken her from a universe of the sort in which she was planning on using the stone after informing the parallel Order.

Or maybe even a Universe where there was no Order or the Order would be insufficient to stop her evil plans -- so it could be a mercy for that dimension.

 

As for how they got that Tuyet to stay quiet, probably threats. Or... it's a prison, there's no reason to assume all the cells are within shouting range of others, and who would she tell except other prisoners who couldn't take the knowledge beyond their own cells anyways? In fact, who says she even knows she's in another universe? She might just know mysterious people kidnapped her and threw her in a cell. Plus, people in prison usually aren't trusted -- "That's what they all say."

 

 

I agree - nobody gets out of the pit before the Cataclysm, and after, they're stuck in Karda Nui after being mutated by the waters of the Pit (which are the same as the waters of Aqua Magna, right?). Even if someone came and left, they would probably be a member of the Order (and know about the lie), but even if they weren't they'd be unlikely to believe Tuyet.


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#14 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 02:48 PM

And that probably explains how Tuyet ended up dead. She was probably still scheming for power with the Barraki, and the Barraki don't like threats to power. So she was offed. 

 

Also, I don't think there was any Toa in the Pit, so the alternate Tuyet probably thought that she still had the Nui Stone. Maxilos could have picked that up too, and passed it along to Makuta. 


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#15 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 04:39 PM

I agree - nobody gets out of the pit before the Cataclysm, and after, they're stuck in Karda Nui after being mutated by the waters of the Pit (which are the same as the waters of Aqua Magna, right?)

Although this is off-topic, might as well answer your question -- sort of. It's real water, not protowater, but it's also turned mutagenic by the radiation coming up from Karda Nui, through the hole in the giant continent left by Voya Nui's absence, and the hole in the giant robot's outer skin left by VN rocketing through it.

 

A little confused as to why you say "they" (meaning escapees from the Pit) are in Karda Nui. I assume that's a typo; they're in the water on top of the giant robot. Karda Nui is two domes down. Although if any of them, assuming they couldn't fly, wanted, they could go down the giant waterfall and end up in Karda Nui's swamps (but they'd probably just die from the impact).

 

Anyways, to add to all this, it's quite possible that even if Altuyet know the whole truth, she figured it wasn't worth even trying to tell fellow prisoners since they were as trapped as her, and once the Cataclysm killed her (or whatever killed her at the time) it was too late. Although, this:

 

Also, I don't think there was any Toa in the Pit, so the alternate Tuyet probably thought that she still had the Nui Stone. Maxilos could have picked that up too, and passed it along to Makuta.

Makes me wonder if perhaps that Tuyet thought she'd experienced (and forgotten, perhaps due to trauma) the Nui Stone exploding, assumed those were fragments of it, and tried to convince a guard to let her go in return for it, not realizing the guards were robots. This would require her to be sedated probably while the Order implanted the crystal shards, which would make sense anyways.


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#16 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 04:45 PM

That assumes that knowledge that it's an alternate Tuyet absolutely requires knowledge that they put normal crystal fragments in too. It's easily possible he might learn of the one and not the other, and hope that they got the decoy from an alternate universe with the Nui Stone. Although that would surely make him wonder why they'd bother at all. But it's possible.

Well, if they did grab an alternate Tuyet with Nui Stone fragments in her, they might as well extract information from that one; or even both. Heck, if anything having two of them would be more dangerous than having one Nui Stone and one fake.  

As for how they got that Tuyet to stay quiet, probably threats. Or... it's a prison, there's no reason to assume all the cells are within shouting range of others, and who would she tell except other prisoners who couldn't take the knowledge beyond their own cells anyways? In fact, who says she even knows she's in another universe? She might just know mysterious people kidnapped her and threw her in a cell. Plus, people in prison usually aren't trusted -- "That's what they all say."

Core!Tuyet managed to convince a guard to help her fake her death, so while I don't know the typical amount of talk that goes on in the Pit, apparently Maximum Security isn't completely void of it. Maybe she would just be written off as crazy in the Pit, but I think I would rather just "disappear" Tuyet than I would trust a decoy to work. Botar doesn't really leave any trace. 

And that probably explains how Tuyet ended up dead. She was probably still scheming for power with the Barraki, and the Barraki don't like threats to power. So she was offed.  Also, I don't think there was any Toa in the Pit, so the alternate Tuyet probably thought that she still had the Nui Stone. Maxilos could have picked that up too, and passed it along to Makuta.

Tuyet died during the cataclysm. It's mentioned that there are conflicting stories, where some claimed she helped re-capture convicts and others say she just died while trying to escape. As a Toa of Water, there is a lot that She could have tried to do during a flooding.Alt!Tuyet would have known that the Order implanted the crystal in her. She did not have it when she was taken, as it is specifically mentioned that they did the job in order to make the decoy look more like Core!Tuyet.EDIT: Just realized that the serial mentions Core!Tuyet having traveled dimensions and draining Toa power for 2000 years before finding her way home. Was it mentioned how much power the Stone had when she first used it? 2000 years might not be so much in BIONICLE, but it's still a heck of a lot of power if the other stone had only been charging for, say, a few hundred.

Edited by Katuko, Dec 02 2013 - 04:49 PM.

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#17 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 05:00 PM

Alt!Tuyet would have known that the Order implanted the crystal in her. She did not have it when she was taken, as it is specifically mentioned that they did the job in order to make the decoy look more like Core!Tuyet.

 

Or they could have picked a dimension where the Nui Stone frags got exploded into Tuyet, removed the fragments, put harmless crystal instead, and moved her to the pit. Or they could have exploded that universe's Nui Stone and removed Tuyet exactly when the Stone blew, avoiding frags getting embedded, but fooling her into thinking that the crystal was the Nui Stone. 

 

Although that begs the question of why they didn't do it in the first place with the first Tuyet, so admittedly it's a flimsy theory. But then you would have the problem of the decoy not working (much) since anyone who goes to the Pit would know that that Tuyet is not from this dimension. 


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#18 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 05:05 PM

I think I would rather just "disappear" Tuyet than I would trust a decoy to work.

Which begs the question of why they even bothered with a decoy in the first place, considering there was nobody who would know about the prison anyways to fool.

 

But then, the whole situation with Teridax shows that it was wise -- forget that she died for the moment because the Order couldn't have foreseen that. They may have worried that someone, either intentionally looking for her personally or who just knew her story with the Nui Stone -- might stumble on the prison, and think of getting the fragments out to recreate it. If such a person realized other people who had disappeared in similar scenarios WERE imprisoned there, and Tuyet was not, it might get them wanting to search hard for where she really is, perhaps following clues related to the prison guards to find more about the Order, perhaps going to Daxia, and finding records of the pocket dimension, and a way to get there.

 

A decoy at least delays this reaction, giving the Order time to prepare in the wake of the prison being found. That was probably their thinking. If I was in Helryx's shoes and this did occur to me, I'd probably go for a decoy too.

 

Alt!Tuyet would have known that the Order implanted the crystal in her.

We cannot assume that.

 

All we know is that she must not have experienced the Nui Stone explosion event (yet, and now wouldn't due to being taken from that timeline), that they were added, and then she was in the prison. Like I said above, I presume they sedated her for at least putting the shards in, as she'd probably fight them if conscious. They may even have used something like a stungun to sedate her in her universe and then the next thing she knows she's in a prison with fragments that look like pieces of the Nui Stone.

 

From that, she could conclude the stone had somehow exploded, either knocking her out and making her lose her short term memory of it, or perhaps while she was already knocked out by whoever captured her. She might assume the reason the shards didn't give her any advantage was that the stone was in pieces. And she wouldn't have been able to remove them herself most likely to put it back together because it's crystal embedded into metal (attempts, without proper tools to melt away the metal, would just shatter the crystal even more, and then she'd have nothing to fuse the pieces with anyways).


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 02 2013 - 05:06 PM.

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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 05:16 PM

EDIT: Just realized that the serial mentions Core!Tuyet having traveled dimensions and draining Toa power for 2000 years before finding her way home. Was it mentioned how much power the Stone had when she first used it? 2000 years might not be so much in BIONICLE, but it's still a heck of a lot of power if the other stone had only been charging for, say, a few hundred.

 The Nui Stone doesn't start charging until it's activated by a Toa.    

The Nui Stone is a crystal about the size of a Toa's fist. It is a dark color when inactive, but as it gathers power, it begins to glow and radiate heat. When activated, the Nui Stone absorbs Toa Power from Toa anywhere within a 3000 Kio radius. This power could then be tapped by another Toa, giving them greater capabilities for elemental energy, though there is a limit to the amount of power the stone can hold, and another limit to the amount the user can wield at once. The power it collects can only be used by Toa and can only be accessed through direct contact with it.


Edited by fishers64, Dec 02 2013 - 05:16 PM.

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#20 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 02 2013 - 05:36 PM

 

I agree - nobody gets out of the pit before the Cataclysm, and after, they're stuck in Karda Nui after being mutated by the waters of the Pit (which are the same as the waters of Aqua Magna, right?)

Although this is off-topic, might as well answer your question -- sort of. It's real water, not protowater, but it's also turned mutagenic by the radiation coming up from Karda Nui, through the hole in the giant continent left by Voya Nui's absence, and the hole in the giant robot's outer skin left by VN rocketing through it.

 

A little confused as to why you say "they" (meaning escapees from the Pit) are in Karda Nui. I assume that's a typo; they're in the water on top of the giant robot. Karda Nui is two domes down. Although if any of them, assuming they couldn't fly, wanted, they could go down the giant waterfall and end up in Karda Nui's swamps (but they'd probably just die from the impact).

 

Anyways, to add to all this, it's quite possible that even if Altuyet know the whole truth, she figured it wasn't worth even trying to tell fellow prisoners since they were as trapped as her, and once the Cataclysm killed her (or whatever killed her at the time) it was too late. Although, this:

 

Sorry, I meant Mahri Nui/the waters around it.


Edited by BobaFett2, Dec 02 2013 - 05:37 PM.

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#21 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 03 2013 - 04:18 AM

Or they could have picked a dimension where the Nui Stone frags got exploded into Tuyet, removed the fragments, put harmless crystal instead, and moved her to the pit. Or they could have exploded that universe's Nui Stone and removed Tuyet exactly when the Stone blew, avoiding frags getting embedded, but fooling her into thinking that the crystal was the Nui Stone.  Although that begs the question of why they didn't do it in the first place with the first Tuyet, so admittedly it's a flimsy theory. But then you would have the problem of the decoy not working (much) since anyone who goes to the Pit would know that that Tuyet is not from this dimension.

Yeah, I imagine if they had a duplicate of the stone fragments that they could grab, they might not even need Tuyet anymore. In that case digging out the fragments before tossing the Toa in the Pit would make a decoy rather superfluous. The stone could still be taken to a pocket dimension for experimenting on, Tuyet would just not be imprisoned there.  

A decoy at least delays this reaction, giving the Order time to prepare in the wake of the prison being found. That was probably their thinking. If I was in Helryx's shoes and this did occur to me, I'd probably go for a decoy too.

Did Teridax even know of Daxia's location? I imagine if he had known it wouldn't matter if Tuyet was there or not, because he would have targeted the island anyways. 

From that, she could conclude the stone had somehow exploded, either knocking her out and making her lose her short term memory of it, or perhaps while she was already knocked out by whoever captured her. She might assume the reason the shards didn't give her any advantage was that the stone was in pieces. And she wouldn't have been able to remove them herself most likely to put it back together because it's crystal embedded into metal (attempts, without proper tools to melt away the metal, would just shatter the crystal even more, and then she'd have nothing to fuse the pieces with anyways).

We must assume like you say that the fragments can not simply be removed, thus explaining why they kept Tuyet around at all. Maybe they ended up mind-wiping the decoy like they did with the Av-Matoran?  

The Nui Stone doesn't start charging until it's activated by a Toa.

1) Tuyet is a Toa.2) It's stated outright in Reign of Shadows that she has been charging it.

For 1500 years, the Order tried to pry the secret of the Stone out of her, with no success. All the while, she plotted her escape. Working on one of her guards, she managed to convince him of the justice of her cause (after all, the Order disliked Dark Hunters and Makuta as much as she did). Finally, the guard was sufficiently on her side to help her fake her own death in an explosion. Believing her body was vaporized, the Order didn't bother to search for her. Meanwhile, she used technology from that dimension to escape.With no map, it took her two thousand years to make it back to her own universe... two thousand years filled with visiting worlds teeming with Toa from whom she could draw strength. Finally, she found a way back home, ending up in the Metru Nui Archives.


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#22 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 03 2013 - 12:07 PM

Maybe they ended up mind-wiping the decoy like they did with the Av-Matoran?

Possible, but not likely. I suppose Makuta could have gone after the decoy based on Maxilos' knowing where she was. But if they could do that, why didn't they mem-wipe the first Tuyet to avoid her coming home? They didn't do that either, right? 

The Nui Stone doesn't start charging until it's activated by a Toa.

1) Tuyet is a Toa.2) It's stated outright in Reign of Shadows that she has been charging it.

For 1500 years, the Order tried to pry the secret of the Stone out of her, with no success. All the while, she plotted her escape. Working on one of her guards, she managed to convince him of the justice of her cause (after all, the Order disliked Dark Hunters and Makuta as much as she did). Finally, the guard was sufficiently on her side to help her fake her own death in an explosion. Believing her body was vaporized, the Order didn't bother to search for her. Meanwhile, she used technology from that dimension to escape.With no map, it took her two thousand years to make it back to her own universe... two thousand years filled with visiting worlds teeming with Toa from whom she could draw strength. Finally, she found a way back home, ending up in the Metru Nui Archives.

Righty. But it wasn't stated that she activated it before she was captured by Lhikan and had the stone explode. After, certainly.

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#23 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 03 2013 - 12:29 PM

Righty. But it wasn't stated that she activated it before she was captured by Lhikan and had the stone explode. After, certainly.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet describe her as using the stone, so it must have been pre-charged sometime between its creation and Tuyet's possession of it, because it only drains tiny amounts of power at a time yet it powers Tuyet up immensely:

"No, no more problems," Tuyet answered, her gaze shifting to the stone in her hand. "I'm about to become the ultimate solution."Her hand closed on the stone. It began to crackle, a nimbus of crimson energy surrounding her. Lhikan hurled a fire bolt, but she deflected it without even looking at him. Her power was already growing exponentially with each passing moment. In a matter of seconds, she would be able to snuff him out like a tiny flame in a windstorm.

This original power was wasted when the stone shattered, as its crimson glow is described as "fading for good". Tuyet next spent 1500 years imprisoned by the Order, before she escaped and spent another 2000 years wandering dimensions. It's during the course of those 2000 years she re-charged the stone fragments as the quote from Reign of Shadows was referring to, and I am wondering out loud how much power that would be compared to what the stone originally held.

Edited by Katuko, Dec 03 2013 - 12:30 PM.

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#24 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 03 2013 - 12:34 PM

This original power was wasted when the stone shattered, as its crimson glow is described as "fading for good". Tuyet next spent 1500 years imprisoned by the Order, before she escaped and spent another 2000 years wandering dimensions. It's during the course of those 2000 years she re-charged the stone fragments as the quote from Reign of Shadows was referring to, and I am wondering out loud how much power that would be compared to what the stone originally held.

 

 

Probably enough to wipe out the city of Metru Nui in a flood, as compared to the giant waterspout thing at the end of that story.


Edited by fishers64, Dec 03 2013 - 12:35 PM.

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#25 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 03 2013 - 12:42 PM

If I'm not mistaken, Teridax did not know the location of Daxia, which was a closely kept secret.


Edited by BobaFett2, Dec 03 2013 - 12:42 PM.

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#26 Offline VoxuChro

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 04:38 AM

after reading through this topic i can not really give much more info than has been stated but i would like to say something that was brought up about the tryna

That also raises the question of why he needed Matoro for his Mask of Reanimation or why such a mask would be necessary in the MU at all.

 

The mask of reanimation can raise more than previously sentient corpses.. From what i have read the red star does not seem to affect rahi corpses.. So there would be plenty of rahi corpses around to be reanimated by the mask. So yeah just felt i would give my little input on this.


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#27 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 09:30 AM

after reading through this topic i can not really give much more info than has been stated but i would like to say something that was brought up about the tryna

That also raises the question of why he needed Matoro for his Mask of Reanimation or why such a mask would be necessary in the MU at all.

 

The mask of reanimation can raise more than previously sentient corpses.. From what i have read the red star does not seem to affect rahi corpses.. So there would be plenty of rahi corpses around to be reanimated by the mask. So yeah just felt i would give my little input on this.

That's correct. The star doesn't affect Agori or Glatorian either, so Matoro could in theory revive those two dead Agori/Glatorian (I don't know which they were) in the control chamber of Mata Nui.


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#28 Offline VoxuChro

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 09:36 AM

 

after reading through this topic i can not really give much more info than has been stated but i would like to say something that was brought up about the tryna

That also raises the question of why he needed Matoro for his Mask of Reanimation or why such a mask would be necessary in the MU at all.

 

The mask of reanimation can raise more than previously sentient corpses.. From what i have read the red star does not seem to affect rahi corpses.. So there would be plenty of rahi corpses around to be reanimated by the mask. So yeah just felt i would give my little input on this.

That's correct. The star doesn't affect Agori or Glatorian either, so Matoro could in theory revive those two dead Agori/Glatorian (I don't know which they were) in the control chamber of Mata Nui.

 

Yeah but i mean we are talking about why canon-wise and from story perspective the mask of reanimation would ever be created..


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#29 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 09:44 AM

 

 

after reading through this topic i can not really give much more info than has been stated but i would like to say something that was brought up about the tryna

That also raises the question of why he needed Matoro for his Mask of Reanimation or why such a mask would be necessary in the MU at all.

 

The mask of reanimation can raise more than previously sentient corpses.. From what i have read the red star does not seem to affect rahi corpses.. So there would be plenty of rahi corpses around to be reanimated by the mask. So yeah just felt i would give my little input on this.

That's correct. The star doesn't affect Agori or Glatorian either, so Matoro could in theory revive those two dead Agori/Glatorian (I don't know which they were) in the control chamber of Mata Nui.

 

Yeah but i mean we are talking about why canon-wise and from story perspective the mask of reanimation would ever be created..

 

Probably because of the environment. Matoro's mask was changed in 2007 and it would have been near-useless in Karda Nui. The mask of reanimation is interesting for two reasons - it brings back really cool Rahi, and it clearly disgusts Matoro.


Edited by BobaFett2, Dec 04 2013 - 09:44 AM.

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#30 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 11:17 AM

It's confirmed that the RS brings back Rahi corpses. Although there must be some sort of time delay involved. (Presumably the sentient beings get priority.) 

 

From here:

Rahi can be revived, since they play a role in Mata Nui's functioning as well.

 

Note the word "can" though. They might not be revived real fast, or the Kestora might have turned that feature off. 

 

And those were Glatorian in the Mata Nui's control center. That's clear from Dwellers in Darkness. 


Edited by fishers64, Dec 04 2013 - 11:17 AM.

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#31 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 12:59 PM

The Tryna was created because the Red Star apparently never worked quite right. If previous speculation in this thread is correct and many corpses fail to be transported at all, then there is a reason to create such a mask. On the other hand, maybe a Tryna is just a possible power that they happened across that is never actually produced in Great form by Matoran. It's hard to say if any mask makers would even recognize Matoro's mask were he to show it to them, since it was given to him by the Mask of Life and not any Matoran Kanohi creators or regular transformation process.
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#32 Offline ~~Zarkan~~

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 05:30 PM

*sigh* This is why the Red Star retcon remains the most ridiculous plot twist in the entire Bionicle storyline, as far as I'm concerned. It creates so many canonical and thematic consistencies that require even more contrived explanations, none of which would be necessary if death still worked in the MU like it did for almost the entirety of Bionicle's run. It would have probably been best for both the fans and the storyline if Greg just wrapped up the remaining plot threads within the 2009 serials and had Journeys End be exactly what it says on the tin. 


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#33 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 04 2013 - 05:42 PM

The Tryna was created because the Red Star apparently never worked quite right. If previous speculation in this thread is correct and many corpses fail to be transported at all, then there is a reason to create such a mask. On the other hand, maybe a Tryna is just a possible power that they happened across that is never actually produced in Great form by Matoran. It's hard to say if any mask makers would even recognize Matoro's mask were he to show it to them, since it was given to him by the Mask of Life and not any Matoran Kanohi creators or regular transformation process.

I don't think that's why the Tryna was created - it doesn't revive thinking beings, it just reanimates the corpse.


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#34 Offline ChroXumo

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 12:16 PM

 

The whole concept of a "Mask of Reanimation" is really odd now that I think about it.

That's why even Matoro was scared of it. 

 

But 2 is correct because the Red Star only works for the MU and the pit is outside of it.

I think Ghoti meant that it really doesn't make sense in-story, not that it's scary... though that too, I guess.


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#35 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 12:57 PM

I don't think that's why the Tryna was created - it doesn't revive thinking beings, it just reanimates the corpse.

I mean that if the revival worked perfectly there would be no corpses to use reanimation powers on, and thus no need to ever even attempt to create a Tryna.

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#36 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 01:03 PM

 

I don't think that's why the Tryna was created - it doesn't revive thinking beings, it just reanimates the corpse.

I mean that if the revival worked perfectly there would be no corpses to use reanimation powers on, and thus no need to ever even attempt to create a Tryna.

 

 

But the mask was created by the Ignika after the revival system broke, correct? I'm not 100% on that, but it could be built by the Matoran after the revival system broke. Like the Mask of Undeath, which was totally made after the revival system was busted, because otherwise it wouldn't be needed.


Edited by fishers64, Dec 05 2013 - 01:03 PM.

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#37 Offline Katuko

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 01:24 PM

But the mask was created by the Ignika after the revival system broke, correct? I'm not 100% on that, but it could be built by the Matoran after the revival system broke. Like the Mask of Undeath, which was totally made after the revival system was busted, because otherwise it wouldn't be needed.

And that is also what I said. The Tryna exists because the corpse removal didn't work right, or else no one would consider creating a corpse-animating mask. I also mentioned that the mask may only exist because the Ignika specifically created it, but we dunno.

All I know is that I don't like the concept of Red Star revival.

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#38 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 02:15 PM

Where are you getting the idea that corpse removal wasn't working right, in general? In all the quotes I just reviewed and posted in the new official topic, the only one that seems to possibly mean would appear to refer to when the back of the head of the giant robot was smashed. The Tryna was on Matoro's face before that (he died before that).

 

Also, this idea that the Tryna is useless if the RS works perfectly continues to forget that there is a time delay. It isn't made useless by the RS. It's just that someone would have to die recently for it to have a corpse to use (if the RS never left corpses long like Altuyet).

 

It seems that there is a theme of corpses remaining in the Mahri Nui area, and that might be a local oddity, and if so, probably has a lot to do with why the Ignika gave Matoro that mask. But that doesn't necessarily mean the send-up teleporter wasn't working.

 

Also, the fact that the mask got a name seems to imply that it was known in the MU before (likely to the Makuta, if not others). Think about it -- a Makuta is likely to wear this, at least since they went evil, since they could temporarily convert enemies into allies by killing them and reanimating their corpse before the time limit was up. (As in to fight other enemies.) Or even more likely, immoral mask-users serving the Brotherhood (since Makuta have so many powers of their own).

 

 

As for not liking it, to each their own, but personally I don't like the approach that requiring thought = annoying. Bionicle has always been supposed to require work to understand, and I have really enjoyed trying to work out all the details of this one. Plus it opened up so much plot potential. :)

 

Edit: Ran out of battery power to add, but now plugged in: Here's three more possibilities that might explain Altuyet and/or any other corpses around Mahri Nui (not necessarily mutually exclusive):

 

1) If the giant robot has to act as a sender up to the RS (which would explain why the teleportation only works one way), and if direct or indirect physical contact with the giant robot through protodermis is needed, then beings in Mahri Nui area are most likely not to go. Hydraxon might have been touching ground when he died, but Tuyet might have floated free for a while and missed the time delay point. Many other corpses might also have been floating in the water.

 

2) Interference from the energy from Karda Nui. Hydraxon might have died just before Voya Nui punched through, or before the interference got strong enough.

 

3) If the Order knows about revival possibility and does something to Pit prisoners to ensure they can't be detected, so they won't appear on the RS. This may even be highly likely and would also explain why Hydraxon was revived.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 05 2013 - 02:27 PM.

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#39 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 02:24 PM

I think it goes the other way. I don't think the GBs - or the RS system - was designed to handle the amount of deaths that actually occurred in the MU. The atmosphere inside there was supposed to be tranquil and peaceful. Too many people died for the system to handle, and then the Tryna was made to take advantage of that. 


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#40 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 05 2013 - 02:34 PM

I think it goes the other way. I don't think the GBs - or the RS system - was designed to handle the amount of deaths that actually occurred in the MU. The atmosphere inside there was supposed to be tranquil and peaceful. Too many people died for the system to handle, and then the Tryna was made to take advantage of that. 

Possible -- and the fact that they couldn't send anybody off would make the problem much worse. The MU is vast (although the actual land area isn't as much as it would seem, and much of the actual land is unpopulated), but the RS is small. And since new beings had to be made and kept dying... yeah. Of course, this doesn't mean sending-up will fail, but if it does glitch, the Kestora would be way less motivated to fix anything on their end that might be wrong.


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