First lemme quote this from fishers' post:
Anyway, I think a lot of possible explanations are emerging for the Tuyet thing, from mutagens to water to energy surges to the Order of Mata Nui. I don't think this is a valid reason to claim the RS revelation is a mistake. It's not a sloppy plot revelation - it's an open door to more explanations. This topic identifies one of those things that needs explained, but just because an explanation is needed does not mean that the thing that causes an explanation to be needed is bad. (What's wrong will a good old S&T theorist topic every now and again? :))
In short, mystery is not a bad thing. In fact, solving a mystery (like the RS) that opens more questions is something that I consider to be a good thing when reading or writing, or just in life in general. If what you're learning isn't opening more knowledge gaps that need filled, then you're not really learning anything anyway - you're just memorizing stuff.
You totally stole my thunder. Seriously, I had that argument lined out point by point in my head, almost. I agree, very strongly. BTW, Greg said something similar with what inspired that mini-contest about those kranalike things... I forget the details but it's on BS01 somewhere. Point is, when you see an apparent inconsistency, you can choose to stop thinking, assume it can't work, and complain -- or you can get constructive, have fun with it by choice, be realistic and understand that complex stories will run into things like this, and come up with an explanation. :) If you ask me, pretty easy choice to make.
Continuing from where I left off with Greg quotes to the question of "what happens if Matoro activates his mask and goes spirit-walking for months?" (Iden):
Matoro and the Makuta did not come back, for a simple reason. None of them have bodies anymore. The body is what is teleported up (which is why you don't see BIONICLE graveyards) and then either repaired or a new one is made to house the consciousness.
"The body is what is teleported up" being the key point. There's others but I'm sure yall can see them for yourselves and this topic's supposed to be about Altuyet and the Tryna. But, if the body is still there, and that kills Matoro, technically this wording seems to mean he should still be revivable. But again, we just don't know enough to be sure of that. His "spirit" may dissipate and the body could be revived from the memories left in his brain (and/or mask), would be my guess, but I could easily be wrong.
Or it may be that after a certain point Iden users are pulled irresistably back to their bodies and there's no risk of this scenario happening. A question for Greg. :P
When Hahli sees Matoro with her mask, does she see a vague energy form, or does she actually see a Matoro-shaped hologram of sorts?
I'd have to re-re-recheck, but I just read this part a few days ago because that's roughly where I'm at in my retelling and I'm fairly sure she could recognize him.
Now had time to read the DBZ analogy more properly. This appears to be the key part:
But after this, the Dragonball revival started being used over and over, to the point where character death was never an issue with anyone but the characters themselves. Death lost its meaning.
But wouldn't we all agree this is not an apt analogy for the (current state of) the Red Star?
He died for a reason, but then he came back and no loss was taken by the heroes.
I just can't agree with that. It can't ever be that simple, especially when losses aren't permanent. And in 2006, Jaller's death had a major effect on him. But, I'll assume by "no" you didn't mean that literally and not beat a dead horse. :P
To Exitium, lemme get this out of the way first:
I hope that you're not implying that those of us who disagree with your opinion, bonesiii, have not thought this through and are therefore wrong; there is room for intelligent people to disagree here.
What do you mean by "wrong"? We were talking, there, about a matter of taste, and if someone honestly dislikes how something was done, that's not wrong. I would hope I've made that crystal clear so many times to the point of being annoying how often I repeated it. :lol: That said, when I initially dislike something, but then later think of a way it makes sense, it tends to change my tastes about it, or if you like, "it will grow on me." Of course, I intentionally try to give things the benefit of the doubt to maximize pleasure, too. :P
But the point is, don't take offense to the advise to be sure to think things through but rather ask yourself honestly if it might be the case because let's face it, it happens to all of us. Yeah? :) In this case, it really doesn't matter because if you still end up disliking it, oh well, the world keeps spinning. Still, a good exercise for other matters in life, and nothing wrong with finding ways to like things more. ^_^
And yes, it is possible to come at fiction misunderstanding how it's intended and have that make you dislike it in a way that arguably isn't really fair. When that comes to a criticism posted online, people should be aware we can critically analyze that criticism itself, and judge whether we think it is really fair -- so far as authorial intent goes. Just as constructive criticism of a story should be taken seriously, constructive criticism of a fan's reaction may benefit that fan if heshe is open-minded about it. :) It should be taken merely as something to try, though, because your tastes ultimately will be what they will be and won't necessarily match others'.
And again, keep in mind we all agree it stinks that the story telling this got cut off that way. Although I would have to say I was enjoying the post-"end" serial chapters we did get quite a bit more than a lot of what filled space in the serials just before it (2009 mainly). Just a few chapters but it got us thinking on here way more than a lot of what went before, interestingly.
I was unaware (or maybe had forgotten) that Hydraxon had been revived. (I didn't trust BS01 on this because it seems to assume that many characters were revived even though they weren't confirmed). Assuming he was revived
Confirmed in this Greg quote:
Does this mean there are two Hydraxons alive now?
Yes, one up there, one down here.
As I mentioned in the first post, it's possible the Red Star only recognizes beings from the prime universe, although I'm not sure what would mark someone as being from one universe or another.
Well, it could be as simple as a beacon implant not having quite the right code if that universe had slight differences. Or, some science fiction has had the idea that there's something fundamentally "unreachable" about the very energy making up other dimensions. I think Doctor Who did something like this (though my bad memory may be wrong even though it was only last year that I first watched that lolzorz). Like, the quantum wave frequencies of everything would be slightly different, and possibly not register as matter to the teleporter of the core universe (which would have a lot to do in quantum-dimension theory with why crossovers are not happening all the time, but that's a long story).
Overall, Tuyet's story seems particularly muddled because I think Greg liked her character so much that he kept writing her back into the storyline in a way that didn't mesh well with what had already been established about her.
I've gotten that sense too, though I've got nothing against that in principle. Just not as fond of this particular use of her again. Maybe it's just that she added to the "peripheral complexity", and that's widely recognized to be one of the biggest things that went wrong with Bionicle's later years. On the other hand, I can't find fault with the plot logic of why she would stay around. I would just prefer alternate universes not to be involved in this one, methinks.
There was no reason for her to come back, and the decoy plot twist was a bit of a cop out in my opinion.
The decoy part, sort of yes. I mean, given that the Order had the tech, no. But Greg didn't have to give them the tech (although it's kind of hard, once you establish that cross-dimensional travel is made possible with protodermic powers, to explain why Mata Nui's special Order wouldn't have a limited version of it). But there was reason for her not to be in the actual Pit and thus not die (thus, "come back"). The Order definitely would have wanted to know the secret to the Nui Stone. It's Helryx's nature.
Regarding the Red Star revival reveal as a whole, I'm inclined to agree that it was a negative addition, and like Katuko, I did not like how casually the first movie handled death and revival.
Okay, I gotta say this. I'm all for being very cautious not to offend people who have different tastes, and I respect that you guys are trying to say, and maybe just not wording it quite the best way, that you didn't like it. For whatever reasons. That's cool. Make sense
But have some of you considered that just as you may feel offended if we seem to disrespect your tastes, it's also possible to be careless in how you post your dislikes, and how that comes across to those of us who liked it? I say this because I honestly don't know how it's possible -- again not trying to insult, of course, but understand and yes honestly wondering if you are "inaccurate" on this -- how it's possible to watch the same movie I did, paying attention, and think death was handled "casually" in Mask of Light? Nor was Jaller's revival handled casually, although I will grant that Takanuva's may warrant that a little. (If that's all you meant then no further objections, just hoping for a clarification. :))
I thought that in general, even for the most part with Takanuva, it was handled very seriously. Jaller's death impact was felt very keenly, clearly, by Takua/Takanuva, and the others, and his revival was wonderful. Also, even though Jaller had just been revived, the emotion with "Get out of there!" and the mask of light coming sliding out was very well done. (It's the unclarity of the method and missed opportunity for emotion there, of Takanuva's revival I didn't like, which I've tried to fix in my version of course. :P) Whether you like the way it was handled is one thing, but to state apparently inaccurate things in your attempt to express that dislike is puzzling at best.
Not that I get my feelings hurt by such things but I'm speaking as a moderator and having had a lot of experience in this area. :)
Part of what fascinates people about death is that it is permanent.
Actually people technically come back from death all the time in hospitals, or what is sometimes deemed death. And if the memories are physically intact, or backed up somewhere in science fiction stuff (which Bionicle clearly falls way within the genre of, although it's somewhat science fantasy, by the definition Greg said that it's all science even if you don't always know it), no real reason it has to be. Star Trek has had things like this; someone's memories downloaded into a computer comes to mind.
This is why I bring up that regardless of what your tastes are, it's also important to honestly recognize the genre of fiction you are following. Fiction like Bionicle is not limited to exact real world things like for example CSI. Just as people don't get teleported away from a hospital and then right back (as RS was intended) or just disappear and maybe someday get freed from wherever they were freed, people likewise don't pick up swords, aim them, and shoot beams of ice. So I don't get why suddenly real life has to be an ironclad rule about death when we've got magical masks on people's faces. :P
See where I'm coming from there?
I don't reject to revival on principle, merely the way it was done in Bionicle, especially with the Red Star.
Here's the thing, though -- it wasn't really done. We learned about it through "behind the scenes" content under totally unique circumstances that make it really impossible to fairly judge how it would have been done. Even with Mavrah, we had never been 100% sure he'd actually died, and were not until Erebus's reveal topic.
So if you're going to judge this one, I think you have to make concessions for that. Of course, then there's the take, which I would totally get, that Greg just shouldn't have gone there -- either finish the serials or never reveal it, and I can sympathize with that. But selfishly I'm still glad we get to puzzle all this out! It's fun, way more fun that what realistically would have just been silence.
While it makes sense logically that the Great Beings could be capable of reviving the dead, it would have just as logical to have made them incapable of doing so.
Not without radically altering the nature of Bionicle so that they didn't design a giant robot (a reveal most people loved BTW, making this an unwise change), didn't make AIs from scratch, and wouldn't have had access to basic backup and restore systems that chances are most of us have on the very devices we're using to have this conversation!
I'm having a hard time seeing how that would even be logical, quite frankly. Unless Bionicle had just ended in 2008 with Mata Nui awakening as planned and being some titan living inside the MU, which admittedly is possible. But far less fun or interesting. :P
(Personally I like this idea better, because it would show that even the Great Beings, the creators of all of the technology in Bionicle, cannot overcome death.)
If you mean with everything else how it is, like there was some kind of a curse upon death that even they couldn't overcome, I'll admit that's a cool idea. Maybe fanfic fodder. :)
But then, that would also displease other fans who wanted the possibility of revival, so maybe not the best idea. :P
BTW, IMO it's not really proper to call the things we're talking about "death" in the sense you mean. It's a secret hospital reviving people after a short time who weren't converted to maggot food yet (admittedly this analogy breaks down with Greg saying "any body" works, but not entirely), and the hospital workers say "CLEAR" and it works; they wake up... and then find out they're trapped in the hospital. But beings in this universe CAN die for real as the word really means and be totally gone, like Matoro. The method is different from restarting a heart with electricity, but that's peripheral. It's still just preserving of life, a last chance to avoid death.
So actual death -- once you're totally gone, comparable to a day after you die in the hospital, or when all that's left is the skeleton -- CANNOT be overcome by the Great Beings. You've got what you wanted. The boundary where you can come back (always possible in real life, just not as much) is just shifted a little and the explanation altered (from the older masks thing).
The trick here is only that it was kept from us until after the story ended. It's that part that we're really talking about; that some fans assumed "death" was death, despite plentiful evidence to the contrary. In hindsight, better hints could perhaps have been given, but then how do you not hint too clearly and spoil the surprise, right?
Matoro's permanent death might have been more interesting had we known its significance at the time or if the temporary nature of death had been explored earlier in the story, but it wasn't. The revival plot was a missed and poorly-executed opportunity.
I'm not sure if you were aware, but on here it was common knowledge that beings who wore masks could theoretically be revived, and commonly theorized that it was a "spirit" (or imprint) on the mask. I recall it being made pretty clear, both by his mask being destroyed, and the wording (though I've yet to review this part) that it was absolutely permanent.
So what you're saying was already true, just in a slightly different way than the RS. All the RS really did was alter our perception of the normal potential for revivals. This was established with Jaller's death, and then Takanuva's.
And in both cases, if you miss the revival time you're gone for good, so this is why I say it's more similar to a hospital revival.
Of course, I certainly intend to try to take advantage of some of these missed opportunities in my version. :P
While the characters may have not known that they were not truly dying, we as readers/viewers do, and that is what matters. There's an emotional difference between "Lhikan died to protect the legacy of Metru Nui" and "Lhikan was critically injured but healed and trapped in another location to protect the legacy of Metru Nui." Lhikan may have thought he was sacrificing himself, but did he really?
Absolutely yes. I'm getting the impression you might not have followed many past RS-revival discussions on here because most of the points you guys are bringing have been brought up and hammered out already, this included. Even if you know there's a chance you might get revived and then a chance you might survive, and then maybe a chance you might come back -- heck, even if you had seen people getting revived just fine and teleported back all the time, you still know there's a first time for everything. Be honest, would you want to be the one just after the last guy who was lucky enough that the system didn't break for? Stuff breaks down, so somebody's gotta draw the short straw eventually.
It would lessen the sacrifice slightly perhaps, but I'm more talking about the apparent hyperbole when you leap from that to a binary "it's either sacrifice or it isn't" approach.
On the other hand, with things as they are, it's quite possible you increase the sacrifice. "There are things worse than death."
instead Greg opted for the uninteresting "zombies in space" approach.
Hey now, we didn't get to see it done. "Our own counsel we will keep on what is interesting." :P
Isn't it really more interesting than "they're just gone... yawn"? I'm not saying your idea can't be even better, per se... although are they mutually exclusive? For Lhikan to meet up with anybody he would have to get away from wherever he was revived. If he can just walk away, IMO that's inherently less interesting than if you have to fight to get back to "life". And after all that struggle to get there, wouldn't it make the reunion only more meaningful?
For comparison's sake, let's take a look at the main death scenes in the first two Bionicle movies. Both Lhikan and Jaller died in almost the same way: they stepped in to take a blow aimed at the hero, and their deaths helped that hero realize his potential. (Reflecting on this now, I'm surprised I never realized how similar they were.)
To the part in parentheses, I had a similar reaction a few months ago in reviewing. It was clearly formulaic, but I'm kind of amazed they somehow kept us from noticing, apparently, lol. Probably had something to do with how it was connected intentionally; the mask from Lhikan going to Jaller. We were all focused on that, rather than looking at each movie superficially. Which may be a brilliant strategy! Or just dumb luck, but hey.
Jaller's death was ultimately more forgettable because he came right back a few minutes later.
And yet that scene has been, to fans judging by their posts, among the most memorable moments in Bionicle history. And frankly I don't get the vibe that Jaller's death was robbed of anything by the revival. If there are people whose brains are wired so that you feel that way, I can't judge, but it was not evident at the time as far as I recall. Most everybody I've seen comment on that movie mentions how well done his death sequence was, and it's only been since the RS reveal that some have now retroactively said they didn't like it because he came back -- that idea comes across as not having been thought of until it could be used as support for the anti-RS arguments. I could be remembering wrong though as always lol. Might be some rose-tinted nostalgia glasses on my face. :shrugs:
Or maybe it just wasn't expressed until now. But memorable, that scene clearly was, to a lot of people.
Lhikan's death was more interesting because with his death, Vakama was forced to step out of Lhikan's shadow and become a true Toa himself
Well, the formulaic point still stands here to be fair, but how does this not apply to Takua realizing he was to become the Toa of Light and becoming the hero, rather than just the "real Herald"? They're different, but this only helps in general, avoiding the formula somewhat. But if you see how Lhikan's death forcing the hero to become responsible works, why not Jaller's death which did that too? (And came first.)
That said, I would personally not pit different people's noble deaths against each other per se like it was a contest. :P It sort of is because it's in fiction, but yeah. Or, there's the angle that, if Lhikan's death topped Jaller's, isn't that good since it came second? The alternative is Jaller's topping Lhikan's for you, which means the movies "got worse." Pros and cons to anything; that's kinda what I'm driving at.
Both may have thought they were making the ultimate sacrifice, but I challenge anyone to make the case that Jaller's death was more interesting or pivotal to the story.
More? Again, why must it be a contest? But they seem pretty equal to me. The case, if I wanted to say his was more pivotal (just to play... Advocate?), is easy. For Takua, he had to BECOME a Toa because of this, and didn't even know for sure such a thing was possible. But I must say I object to the challenge somewhat, because it is not logical to argue, "one death is less pivotal than another, therefore that death shouldn't happen." That's merely comparative logic, and doesn't change that we found Jaller's and Lhikan's deaths BOTH to be pivotal and interesting and touching, meaningful, sad, inspiring, etc. etc.
And since you're bringing this up because we knew Jaller's revival in the same movie but not Lhikan's until a Greg quote reveal, I don't ever remembering feeling that Jaller's death was somehow less meaningful (or interesting or pivotal) because of the revival, than Lhikan's. If anything, it was that very thing that made it fascinating and even more important, because I read stories with suspension of disbelief, and who in their rights minds can't empathize with the desire to cheat death? And there's how it changes Jaller afterwards, which is way more interesting than just dodging a bullet generally, or just going away for good.
You know, if you read the 2006 books, they're kind of a polemic against this attitude that it's anywhere near realistic to see death as meaningless if you come back.
Go back and re-read the narrated thoughts of Jaller. Keep in mind this is the same author here. (Another reason I can't agree with the idea that we couldn't see this coming, although I don't wanna put Katuko's words in your mouth, not sure if you didn't too.) It had a profound effect on him. Heck, he became leader of one of the two most crucial Toa teams in history because of it -- arguably the most, because in the end the Ignika actually reactivated the giant robot, not the Nuva.
Now of course it turns out that Lhikan didn't actually die and is safely on the Red Star. Admittedly, he was removed from the story, so his death did alter the status quo (unlike Jaller's) but I maintain that his revival and the possibility of return alters our understanding of death in Bionicle dramatically.
Every new thing in a story alters our understanding of that story universe, and the more significant, the better it can be if it appeals to your tastes. Admittedly, the worse it can be if it doesn't, but that cannot always be helped, because like it or not, tastes do vary from person to person. (Which BTW is a good thing, although some arguably unwise choices of outlook or missing some details may cause unnecessary dislikes, to some extent.)
BTW, was "did alter the status quo" a typo for "didn't"? For some reason I'm not getting what you meant there. Also, both of course dramatically altered the status quo (as did their revivals), but I presume you mean one more than the other and I'm not sure which you meant or why. Suspect, but words are best not placed in others' mouths, and this is getting way long.
fishers, thanks for the clarification in your first paragraph -- yes, agreed. And both probably were mixed after the Sendback "broke" (assuming it ever worked, which Greg's original reveal quote seems to imply it may have never worked, but later quotes opened up the possibility without answering it). But the issue, of course, is how long the corpses remain, since they continued to disappear regardless of whether Sendback worked.
By the way, another point I meant to bring up earlier, but yet another clue we had to the possibility of a standard revival system was that Greg often put strong emphasis on the idea that "if there's no body, always assume they can come back." Greg's extremely clever at subtle hints, often so clever it goes over most people's heads and goes unrecognized, but that's part of the draw because those of us who spot them get to feel smart; this may have very well been yet another instance. This combined with his continued refusal to show graveyards, despite that dead bodies could be shown in LEGO's violence policy, in general, and a graveyard is hardly graphic, should have been seen as major evidence that something was up (and was by me).
True, bodies were seen, but the point was that it was so often hinted that they disappeared. And after Jaller's revival, the door was opened wide for those disappearing bodies to be revived somewhere all the time. It was actually fairly thinly veiled.
Could we have placed it to the RS? Before Gali's seeing beings up there, probably not, though who knows. After that, eh... I didn't and I don't think anyone did, but then lots of things with hints in mystery stories get untheorized before they happen; that's always a hit and miss art, and shouldn't mean that the reveal shouldn't come. Also, standard caution that we're still not 100% sure something (even if vague at first) was planned, nor more importantly how early the RS tie-in was.
Agreed with your other points too. Phew, caught up!
Edit: Minor correction to the idea that there were three revivals; it was four (at least) -- Jaller, Takanuva, Matoro (on the 777 stairs, with red lightstones... I have mentioned this many times but forgot above... writing my version now :P -- this was yet another clue, and one that actually could have connected revival to the RS for us in theories), then the RS wave of revivals. There's also the sort of undead guardian guy of TSO.. Sentrakh was it? And of course the Tryna and Mask of Undeath also further clue us in (in that latter case, clue yall in since it was my idea :P) that real-world death is not to be assume here. But those weren't as clear; I think Matoro is the only other clear example but could be wrong. It's a big story.
Also, another point -- the actual number of characters either confirmed or believed to have come back, who we are familiar with, is really tiny. Have a look at the list in the new official topic, folks. And of those, we don't know if most are still alive now.