Who Is (And Isn't) The Great Being?

[bonesiii]

I had been ignoring this topic but finally took the time to read it through from start to finish (skimming some, admittedly ). Here's some observations I've made from the debate so far:1) The Time Slip is irrelevant, even though people keep relying on it. The GB only had to remember he was a GB, not necessarily know everything that happened. Temporary loss of memory is not a "mind wipe." Mind wipe means you start over with no memories at all.Also the GB probably couldn't have stopped the erasing in the Time Slip, so it really doesn't matter anyways. If as Kapura he couldn't have prevented his own mind wipe, then as anybody else, he apparently couldn't have seen the Time Slip coming, so wouldn't have known he had to be an Order Member.Thus:2) He does not necessarily have to be an Order member... And personally, I really hope he isn't because other than Helryx they're fairly obscure, especially the Tobwhatever ones.3) I don't think it can be any of the Nuva, although it's possible. I originally argued for Onua, but I no longer think it works. My main reason for arguing Onua was plot-based in the story in question, so it's still a slight possibility, but eh. Onua doesn't perfectly fit the personality anyways.4) "Observing" was never defined, so we should be careful making assumptions about just what that means.5) It can't be an active villain, since TSO was ruled out for that reason, so IMO all the DH have to be ruled out for example, even though people keep suggesting them. The GB wouldn't have worked against the giant robot. (So no, it can't be Darkness, for example; someone already disproved this because Darkness egged TSO's villainry on.)6) He is male, almost certainly not in disguise as female, or at least not a "strong female" character.7) Very likely he would not want to be a being of significant power. Anyone like that would be a target for recruitment by villains, or by good guys to stop villains, etc. and that just doesn't seem to fit with observing. Anyone with significant power that refused to join either type of groups would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb. So he's probably a Matoran.Possibly this rule wouldn't be a problem if it was an Order member; they probably do go where problems are often. Still, he would totally be at the mercy of Helryx to decide where he goes, what he does, etc. Unlikely IMO.8) This might not affect it much but based on the Kapura thing I think we should see it as likely that the GB has absolutely no GB-like extra control over anything. He is literally just his mind, inhabiting a body that is normal to whatever species he is. And a powerless Matoran fits this and rule #7 best.All things considered, thus, I do agree with the people who are saying Velika.The one problem with him is that there might be better places to observe than Voya Nui. But it was only after the GC that he was stuck far away from the rest of the MU on VN, and the GB might not have known that would happen, so might have been stuck there against his will.Prior to that, the region was on the southern continent, the largest of the continents and roughly in the center of the giant robot, so it should be a good place to observe. The only better place I can think of would be Metru Nui but that has already been ruled out due to the memory wipe.And we shouldn't forget that the Mask of Life was an extremely important thing to keep an eye on (or the area of it), so VN may be a great spot to observe.So I think either Velika or another of the Voyatoran/Mahritoran.BTW, it would awesome if the first post here could be edited to actually say who is in that fortress and thus ruled out. Without consulting the story I have no idea.Also, in all the discussion of Dume, I didn't see anyone point out that it was confirmed his sphere malfunctioned. If we take that literally he could not have known it would malfunction. You could argue he as a GB caused it to, but then GB as Kapura could have too, and just pretended to forget, and the whole rule against Metru Nui Matoran is moot. So I think it can't be Dume.Besides, Dume trying to stop a group of destined Matoran and a Toa from going to help the Nuva save Mata Nui's life doesn't at all fit the GB according to the TSO rule. If Dume had succeeded it would have been one of the biggest things anyone could do to work against the robot, although admittedly he couldn't have known they were destined. But a GB would know that Matoran might be destined, and especially shouldn't try to stop a Toa.The Umbra argument someone gave is really cool. I haven't seen a convincing disproof of that one.Has anything ruled out one of the original Turaga? Besides Vakama? They're the only ones who would fit the "should have been in the story from the start" rule that some people have hoped applies (though it isn't confirmed). I would argue against them because they were Toa, and Umbra and anyone else with powers based on #7, but that's not a confirmed universal rule either.

Edited April 26, 2012 by bonesiii

[Taipu1]

Has anything ruled out one of the original Turaga? Besides Vakama? They're the only ones who would fit the "should have been in the story from the start" rule that some people have hoped applies (though it isn't confirmed). I would argue against them because they were Toa, and Umbra and anyone else with powers based on #7, but that's not a confirmed universal rule either.

I wouldn't describe anything Matau has done as 'observing'. And going by observing as a personality, if any of the Turaga are likely, it would be Nuju or Whenua. It would be a question of whether the observer is just recording history, keeping track as Whenua did. I think Nuju is more likely though. If he knew that the Red Star moved to show upcoming events, it would make sense for him to observe this, and make sure that destiny was on track. Edited April 26, 2012 by Taipu1

[Infrared]

The Umbra argument someone gave is really cool. I haven't seen a convincing disproof of that one.

Umbra spent his whole time guarding the Ignika, so there is nothing that he could observe besides his chamber, the Piraka, Jovan's team, the the Toa Inika (I recall him once saying that the Protodax disposed of the Rahi, so he wouldn't have even been able to observe them). Also, he tried to prevent both Jovan's team and the Toa Inika (I don't think he fought with the Piraka) from getting the Ignika and saving Mata Nui. However, one could also argue that that would be a great way to dish out revenge to the Matoran Universe denizens, but even if that was the case, the first point would still stand.Edit: added "even" Edited April 26, 2012 by Infrared

[bonesiii]

I wouldn't describe anything Matau has done as 'observing'. And going by observing as a personality, if any of the Turaga are likely, it would be Nuju or Whenua. It would be a question of whether the observer is just recording history, keeping track as Whenua did. I think Nuju is more likely though. If he knew that the Red Star moved to show upcoming events, it would make sense for him to observe this, and make sure that destiny was on track

Yeah, I think I agree. Only thing is, I'm not sure why Nuju would be more likely than Whenua. Not sure why but Whenua always seemed more of a passive type. Nuju seems to go out of his way to be weird. And while they were Toa, it felt to me like Nuju had character strugges along the way, much as Matau or Vakama did, but Whenua was always just sort of there. The whole Hordika thing really influenced Nuju emotionally more so than the others for example (at least long-term; Vakama was more so in the short term of course!), and that was part of why he started speaking birdspeak most of the time.But this makes me wonder about the Wall of Prophecy... it's probably irrelevant, but it would be cool if Nuju as GB actually put in the real secrets of destiny as the GBs programmed it in the Great Spirit and the beings inside him, and got bored one day and decided he had to write it down. Not necessary since Ko-Metruans tried to see the future in the stars and stuff, and it would probably not help him blend, but yeah.

Also, he tried to prevent both Jovan's team and the Toa Inika (I don't think he fought with the Piraka) from getting the Ignika and saving Mata Nui.

No, he was just doing his job as a filter against unworthy people passing into the Ignika's chamber. He likely wanted the Inika to succeed, but wouldn't be helping them by giving them an easy pass. That would just make them lower their guard when they moved on to other challenges that wouldn't be so kind, especially the Piraka and Barraki.Your first point seems reasonable, although I dunno how for-sure it is. He'd also have been in a central and vital location in the MU, possibly a great place to observe. It would help if we knew whether he always stayed in the tunnel, which would seem unlikely (he's gotta eat, etc.). As far as I know it's possible he would normally be living in the area but if someone looking for the mask came, he would beat them back to the tunnel because he knows where it is and they don't, so he'd be in place by the time they got there. Edited April 26, 2012 by bonesiii

[Ballom Nom Nom]

Your first point seems reasonable, although I dunno how for-sure it is. He'd also have been in a central and vital location in the MU, possibly a great place to observe. It would help if we knew whether he always stayed in the tunnel, which would seem unlikely (he's gotta eat, etc.). As far as I know it's possible he would normally be living in the area but if someone looking for the mask came, he would beat them back to the tunnel because he knows where it is and they don't, so he'd be in place by the time they got there.

Being able to travel at the speed of light would allow him to always be in the tunnel when needed, yes. Overall, I do think you make a pretty convincing case for Umbra being the Great Being. It could also work toward explaining how he has such strong, unique light powers.~B~

[fishers64]

BTW, it would awesome if the first post here could be edited to actually say who is in that fortress and thus ruled out. Without consulting the story I have no idea.

Let's see if I remember this right: Vezon, Brutaka, Helryx, Axxonn, Miserix, Tuyet, and Artahka. And Hafu and Kapura...

One instant, Axonn, Brutaka, Helryx, Artakha, Miserix, Tuyet and two Matoran were inside a half-ruined chamber deep beneath Metru Nui. The next, they were floating in the airless, icy void of outer space, watching as the robot Makuta commanded soared away from them toward a distant world.

Helryx eventually decided to destroy the chamber by using a Nova Blast of Water, thus sparing other worlds outside the universe from Teridax. Before she could do so however, Tren Krom in Lewa's body, Kapura, Hafu, and Tuyet arrived.

Also, being in the fortress does not automatically rule them out of being the GB, just makes in extremely unlikely due to the fact that whoever is pulling off some complex plan and is in communication with Vorox. And most of them are ruled out due to "rule # 7" anyway. Too high profile. (And Hafu and Kapura are thrown out on the Metru Nui rule...)I agree with the Velika league. He seems like the guy who would pull a nifty weapon or two for the Vorox to use - he is an inventor, after all. Edited April 27, 2012 by fishers64

[Infrared]

Do we know if the Great Beings have internal light and shadow? I ask because Umbra is known to have no internal shadow, and that might help to bolster/disprove (depending on how you look at it) his Great Being candidacy. The BS01 Shadow page says:

Virtually any being of any species can become drained of a portion of their light. Doing so will give the being limited shadow powers.

However, this only applies to Matoran Universe inhabitants, so I don't know if the same applies to Spherus Magnans.

[fishers64]

Do we know if the Great Beings have internal light and shadow? I ask because Umbra is known to have no internal shadow, and that might help to bolster/disprove (depending on how you look at it) his Great Being candidacy. The BS01 Shadow page says:

Virtually any being of any species can become drained of a portion of their light. Doing so will give the being limited shadow powers.

However, this only applies to Matoran Universe inhabitants, so I don't know if the same applies to Spherus Magnans.

I don't believe that this is entirely relevant to the nature of the being. It's just a Great Being's mind in a MUian's body - all properties of the Matoran Universe inhabitants and physical properties regarding those would apply.However, it could be possible that this could rule him out. If that lack of moral darkness extends to his mind (and I don't see why not), then it would be incompatible with the "evil plans" this guy is cooking up.

[bonesiii]

However, it could be possible that this could rule him out. If that lack of moral darkness extends to his mind (and I don't see why not), then it would be incompatible with the "evil plans" this guy is cooking up.

Greg made it clear he does not see them as evil, Orde does (it was Orde, right? ). Given that it's a Great Being, it's likely he knows something Orde doesn't know so his actions could seem evil without being evil. Greg also said having only moral light would be just as unbalanced, so might come across as evil too, who knows?But yeah, that might be relevant one way or the other and I'm not sure which makes more sense. Or maybe it's irrelevant; we just don't have enough info on those details.

[Infrared]

However, it could be possible that this could rule him out. If that lack of moral darkness extends to his mind (and I don't see why not), then it would be incompatible with the "evil plans" this guy is cooking up.

Greg made it clear he does not see them as evil, Orde does (it was Orde, right? ). Given that it's a Great Being, it's likely he knows something Orde doesn't know so his actions could seem evil without being evil. Greg also said having only moral light would be just as unbalanced, so might come across as evil too, who knows?But yeah, that might be relevant one way or the other and I'm not sure which makes more sense. Or maybe it's irrelevant; we just don't have enough info on those details.

I remember a large discussion on moral shadow/light back in the Official Elements Topic, which might have covered things like this. I can go look for it if you guys want.

[Dralcax]

However, it could be possible that this could rule him out. If that lack of moral darkness extends to his mind (and I don't see why not), then it would be incompatible with the "evil plans" this guy is cooking up.

Greg made it clear he does not see them as evil, Orde does (it was Orde, right? ). Given that it's a Great Being, it's likely he knows something Orde doesn't know so his actions could seem evil without being evil. Greg also said having only moral light would be just as unbalanced, so might come across as evil too, who knows?But yeah, that might be relevant one way or the other and I'm not sure which makes more sense. Or maybe it's irrelevant; we just don't have enough info on those details.

I remember a large discussion on moral shadow/light back in the Official Elements Topic, which might have covered things like this. I can go look for it if you guys want.

Light and shadow have nothing to do with it. The GB is probably beyond black and white definitions of one's character. Like how in the real world, most people aren't heroes, but they aren't really villains either, they do what they can, and their actions are interpreted differently.

[fishers64]

Light and shadow have nothing to do with it. The GB is probably beyond black and white definitions of one's character. Like how in the real world, most people aren't heroes, but they aren't really villains either, they do what they can, and their actions are interpreted differently.

Being morally balanced is inconsistant with being a being of pure light.

[Click]

Why not just guess more beings already? If there's a prize, Greg awards it to the first to guess the GB, not everyone who agreed with them. Just start throwing out random, but supported, guesses, and you might get it.What about Varian? She got locked up in Stasis, but if the GB was powerful enough, maybe she could observe from there. Just a complete shot in the dark, plus, she's a girl, and in a fan fic, so that wouldn't work.Well, since that didn't work out, I'll try the Mahri-Nui Matoran:IdrisPros-She just left Lesovikk and Sarda to go back to Mahri-Nui, so she could not care about others.-Helped rig the Karzahni trap, so she's inventive (like fishers24 said, I guess the GB made Vorox weapons, but not sure)-Travelled around from previous Island, to Karzahni, to Voya-Nui, to Mahri-Nui, and the submarine adventure that nearly killed her, so she has lots of chances to be observant.Cons-She's a girl, so probably not.-She also "cares deeply about her friends," even though she left.So, most likely not.SardaPros-Likes to go on adventures, which seems observant to me.-Also built the Karzahni trap.-Also travelled like Idris.-He's a guy.Cons-Karzahni gave him a dream where all the Mahritoran died, and it scared him, but that could be self preservation.Possible, not many cons I could come up with.GarPros-Very little known, so would be a perfect cover.-Onu-Matoran, so observant by nature.-Also went on the submarine expedition.Cons-Sacrificed himself to save Idris, so he cares-Also Defilak's best friend.-Also smashed Mahri-Nui's lightstones to save them from the Venom Eel.-Forgot memories of Voya-NuiNot likely, his anonymity also makes him less likely.DefilakPros-Trader, so has plenty of time to observe.-Travelled like Sarda and Idris.-Invented the submarine for the previously named submarine expedition.-Distrusting could come off as uncaring.-Lied to Pridak. Not sure why, but this seems significant.Cons-Also helped smash lightstones.-Built the submarine just for a Po-Matoran, so he kind of cared.Fairly possible, but seems too caring.And finally, Dekar, which, although likely, lost all memories when he became Hydraxon.So, that covers it, I'd think Sarda is the best guess out of the known Mahritoran. Any contridictions?

[bonesiii]

Why not just guess more beings already? If there's a prize, Greg awards it to the first to guess the GB, not everyone who agreed with them. Just start throwing out random, but supported, guesses, and you might get it.

Didn't he say someone already guessed it?

[Erebus]

Yup, he was gonna reveal the GB in the next chapter.

[~Xemnas~]

Wow, I didn't know that. That makes me long more for another chapter!

[Infrared]

Yup, he was gonna reveal the GB in the next chapter.

It kind of seemed like that's what he meant to me, but the way it was written made it seem a bit ambiguous, if I recall. Thanks for clarifying! I think I'll go rummage through the old topics to get a definitive list at some point.Click, also, I doubt that it's any of the Mahri Nui Matoran, as they lost their memories from prior to Mahri Nui's sinking, as you mentioned. Edited May 4, 2012 by Infrared

[Click]

Well, Gar did, no one else as far as I could tell.EDIT: Oh, someone guessed it? *madly searching through the other topic* Who is it? Why did bioniclestory.com have to be shut down, at such an inconvenient time!?EDIT 2: I just looked through the story, and a few hints were revealed:

Their would-be murdered looked at his work and pronounced it good. He sat down on the ground and picked up a stone. Humming to himself, he began to carve it into a memorial marker for those about to die.

So, probably a Po-Matoran, since he can carve, strengthening the Velika argument.

Baleful eyes started up at an imposing edifice of rock and mortar.

"Baleful eyes" seem like a pretty good hint, also helping the Velika argument, since I guess Matoran, especially with certain masks, have "baleful eyes."

A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.

Po-Matoran have a "rock sense" that helps them find weak points, like in Tales of the Mask:

Pohatu approached the pile of stone and gently laid his hands upon it, first in one spot, then another. He almost seemed to be listening to the rock......"Ah! Here we are." Pohatu drew back his leg and slammed a center stone with a mighty kick. The rock splintered and flew apart. Robbed of their support, the other stones collapsed, revealing the cavern entrance.

Or at least Pohatu had it. It seems like Velika is the best argument, but it doesn't matter much since it's already guessed. Edited May 5, 2012 by Click

[Dralcax]

Voyatoran:Balta: Kinda outta character...Dalu: Really? You seriously think it's her?Piruk: Maybe because of his spy skills, but not enough evidenceKazi: Perhaps, but...Velika: Definitely ProbablyGaran: Waay too involved in things. Him being the GB would be like Abraham Lincoln secretly being a foreign spy. It ain't happening.

[BioGio]

Comments in bold, Geogia, black font (like so).

EDIT: Oh, someone guessed it? *madly searching through the other topic* Who is it? Why did bioniclestory.com have to be shut down, at such an inconvenient time!? Yes, someone guessed it, but someone has guessed almost everyone, and we have no idea who guessed correctly.

Their would-be murdered looked at his work and pronounced it good. He sat down on the ground and picked up a stone. Humming to himself, he began to carve it into a memorial marker for those about to die.

So, probably a Po-Matoran, since he can carve, strengthening the Velika argument. Almost any literate Matoran was able to carve; it's how they wrote.

Baleful eyes started up at an imposing edifice of rock and mortar.

"Baleful eyes" seem like a pretty good hint, also helping the Velika argument, since I guess Matoran, especially with certain masks, have "baleful eyes." You do know that "baleful" means "menacing," right? Greg isn't making any physical comments here--it's a statement that this guy is up to no good.

A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.

Po-Matoran have a "rock sense" that helps them find weak points, like in Tales of the Mask:

Pohatu approached the pile of stone and gently laid his hands upon it, first in one spot, then another. He almost seemed to be listening to the rock......"Ah! Here we are." Pohatu drew back his leg and slammed a center stone with a mighty kick. The rock splintered and flew apart. Robbed of their support, the other stones collapsed, revealing the cavern entrance.

Or at least Pohatu had it. It seems like Velika is the best argument, but it doesn't matter much since it's already guessed.

Your first point seems reasonable, although I dunno how for-sure it is. He'd also have been in a central and vital location in the MU, possibly a great place to observe. It would help if we knew whether he always stayed in the tunnel, which would seem unlikely (he's gotta eat, etc.). As far as I know it's possible he would normally be living in the area but if someone looking for the mask came, he would beat them back to the tunnel because he knows where it is and they don't, so he'd be in place by the time they got there.

Being able to travel at the speed of light would allow him to always be in the tunnel when needed, yes. Overall, I do think you make a pretty convincing case for Umbra being the Great Being. It could also work toward explaining how he has such strong, unique light powers.~B~

The only question is as to how he would know when to return to the cave. I really don't want to think that Umbra spent 100% of his time in the cave, but it's a little shaky as to how he wouldn't.

3) I don't think it can be any of the Nuva, although it's possible. I originally argued for Onua, but I no longer think it works. My main reason for arguing Onua was plot-based in the story in question, so it's still a slight possibility, but eh. Onua doesn't perfectly fit the personality anyways.4) "Observing" was never defined, so we should be careful making assumptions about just what that means.

@3: The Nuva didn't really have any memories of their time prior to arriving on the Island of Mata Nui until people helped them jog their subconscious, so their remembering being a GB is almost completely impossible given the "no total memory loss" rule.@4: It's been defined. Seriously, though, Greg probably isn't going to go crazy with some explanation like "on Spherus Magna and in the MU, 'observing' means 'being a Toa'" () or otherwise create a new definition. He gave us a challenge, so he naturally isn't going to complicate it to remove the possibility to rational thought and thus success. He had so assume that we knew what his definition of "observe" was, so I don't think it differs from the average one. Further, observing the MU means exactly that: observing the universe, not just a portion of it.

Also, being in the fortress does not automatically rule them out of being the GB

It shouldn't--I agree with you there--but it does, as mentioned by Greg to Nuhrii the Metruan [source].~ BioGio

[bonesiii]

Further, observing the MU means exactly that: observing the universe, not just a portion of it.

We don't know that. This is what I mean about it not being defined. IF I'm right that the GB's observing is limited to just seeing with normal eyes, then it would only be a portion of the universe at any given time. We can't assume he has some special power to observe anywhere remotely, so geographical convenience and the like are plausible evidences. As far as we know. Edited May 6, 2012 by bonesiii

[Ice the Great]

Further, observing the MU means exactly that: observing the universe, not just a portion of it.

We don't know that. This is what I mean about it not being defined. IF I'm right that the GB's observing is limited to just seeing with normal eyes, then it would only be a portion of the universe at any given time. We can't assume he has some special power to observe anywhere remotely, so geographical convenience and the like are plausible evidences. As far as we know.

Well, if he (or she) IS limited to eyes and ears, it lends credence to some of the arguments about Order agents and/or Dark Hunters, since both organizations have large intelligence networks. Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

[Ballom Nom Nom]

Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

Being on the surface of Aqua Magna, I don't think Voya Nui would give a view of anything else other than ocean, even if one were on the volcano.~B~

[Toa Sonis]

There are some very interesting theories out there. I'd have to say the ones most convincing to me would be for the Matoran--what better spot to observe than as a worker helping sustain? Although if it were a Matoran, do you suppose they would have to ensure not to become Toa? Toa do actively participate in the universe (save Varian) and change many things...but how would a Matoran keep from becoming a Toa?

[fishers64]

Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

Being on the surface of Aqua Magna, I don't think Voya Nui would give a view of anything else other than ocean, even if one were on the volcano.~B~

Yes, but Voya Nui wasn't always in the middle of the ocean. It was once in the middle of the Southern Continent, surrounded by other inhabited lands.

There are some very interesting theories out there. I'd have to say the ones most convincing to me would be for the Matoran--what better spot to observe than as a worker helping sustain? Although if it were a Matoran, do you suppose they would have to ensure not to become Toa? Toa do actively participate in the universe (save Varian) and change many things...but how would a Matoran keep from becoming a Toa?

I don't think the GB would worry too much about it, but Voya Nui hasn't exactly been Destiny City of Matoran Becoming Toa. (That might be a good reason to have avoided Metru Nui in the first place...)Besides, there was a theory awhile back that Matoran destined to become Toa had a compartment with Toa energy in it. The GB would be able to detect this and move into a body without that energy anyway.Even if that theory isn't true, I would think that the GB would know which Matoran are destined to become Toa and which not. After all, they created the universe...

[Goldenguy]

I think those who say position might be a factor, it might not be that much of it, he is a GB, they built PLANET_SIZED_MECHAS, building a few nano-nini-cameras wouldn't be much of a problem. Actually it would help, a small unmoving character woulnd't raise suspicions, while a spy would.

[BioGio]

would only be a portion of the universe at any given time.

OK, I must have misunderstood you. I just meant that the character would ideally not be stuck in one insignificant portion of the MU (say, Odina or Xia) but rather observe the majority of it.Also, Ice the Great, a mountain isn't the best for observing the function of Matoran (which would look nearly ant-sized and meaningless). The GB could ensure that no cataclysms or large-scale invasions were going on, but that's not really useful.~ BioGio

[Ballom Nom Nom]

would only be a portion of the universe at any given time.

OK, I must have misunderstood you. I just meant that the character would ideally not be stuck in one insignificant portion of the MU (say, Odina or Xia) but rather observe the majority of it.Also, Ice the Great, a mountain isn't the best for observing the function of Matoran (which would look nearly ant-sized and meaningless). The GB could ensure that no cataclysms or large-scale invasions were going on, but that's not really useful.~ BioGio

On the other hand, given that they have god-like powers to prevent cataclysms with, a Great Being could certainly enhance their own eyesight. ~B~

[Ice the Great]

Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

Being on the surface of Aqua Magna, I don't think Voya Nui would give a view of anything else other than ocean, even if one were on the volcano.~B~

Pre-Cataclysm, they were near the center of the Southern Continent. Good viewpoint THERE. The Cataclysm, however, would have caused a problem with that. BUT... it said that Voya Nui blew up into the ocean. Now, the MU was made out of metal on the outside, right?Wouldn't a primarily-stone island hurdling at a wall of solid metal shatter?Evidence of a GB possibly doing self-preservation?

[fishers64]

Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

Being on the surface of Aqua Magna, I don't think Voya Nui would give a view of anything else other than ocean, even if one were on the volcano.~B~

Pre-Cataclysm, they were near the center of the Southern Continent. Good viewpoint THERE. The Cataclysm, however, would have caused a problem with that. BUT... it said that Voya Nui blew up into the ocean. Now, the MU was made out of metal on the outside, right?Wouldn't a primarily-stone island hurdling at a wall of solid metal shatter?Evidence of a GB possibly doing self-preservation?

If I hurl a boulder at an I-beam (metal), I think the I-beam will break, not the stone.

[bleedingshadows94]

Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

Being on the surface of Aqua Magna, I don't think Voya Nui would give a view of anything else other than ocean, even if one were on the volcano.~B~

Pre-Cataclysm, they were near the center of the Southern Continent. Good viewpoint THERE. The Cataclysm, however, would have caused a problem with that. BUT... it said that Voya Nui blew up into the ocean. Now, the MU was made out of metal on the outside, right?Wouldn't a primarily-stone island hurdling at a wall of solid metal shatter?Evidence of a GB possibly doing self-preservation?

If I hurl a boulder at an I-beam (metal), I think the I-beam will break, not the stone.

But that's all based on the density of the metal. If you have something thick as an I-beam, the I-beam is only so tensile. Take 2 I-beams; combined, they are roughly twice as tensile and strong. Therefore, the boulder would do less damage, and if you keep building on it, well, it's only going to get stronger, even if the rock itself gets bigger or stronger. Besides, Greg has said that real world physics don't necessarily apply.~Tobi

[fishers64]

Also, from one point of view, it lends aid to the Velika/Kazi argument. Voya Nui was near the center of a continent, and it has a tall volcano. There'd be great spots to climb to for a view.

Being on the surface of Aqua Magna, I don't think Voya Nui would give a view of anything else other than ocean, even if one were on the volcano.~B~

Pre-Cataclysm, they were near the center of the Southern Continent. Good viewpoint THERE. The Cataclysm, however, would have caused a problem with that. BUT... it said that Voya Nui blew up into the ocean. Now, the MU was made out of metal on the outside, right?Wouldn't a primarily-stone island hurdling at a wall of solid metal shatter?Evidence of a GB possibly doing self-preservation?

If I hurl a boulder at an I-beam (metal), I think the I-beam will break, not the stone.

But that's all based on the density of the metal. If you have something thick as an I-beam, the I-beam is only so tensile. Take 2 I-beams; combined, they are roughly twice as tensile and strong. Therefore, the boulder would do less damage, and if you keep building on it, well, it's only going to get stronger, even if the rock itself gets bigger or stronger. Besides, Greg has said that real world physics don't necessarily apply.~Tobi

Let's say I have an island and blast it at 20 MPH at a hull with the strength of 100 I-beams. Island wins. And given that the island was probably moving faster than that, given that it was propelled by an energy blast from the power core of a giant robot, there is no contest...But since real world physics don't always apply, Voya Nui can blast through a giant robot hull without trouble...:)So I don't think Mr. GB had a hand in that...

[Ballom Nom Nom]

It seems discussions of what should and shouldn't break would need actual calculations, and given that we also have no idea how Bionicle physics compare in general to those in our universe, or how substances like Protodermis and Protosteel compare to our elements/compounds, such discussion seems rather moot overall. :PIncidentally, that was an excessively convoluted sentence.~B~

[bonesiii]

It seems discussions of what should and shouldn't break would need actual calculations, and given that we also have no idea how Bionicle physics compare in general to those in our universe, or how substances like Protodermis and Protosteel compare to our elements/compounds, such discussion seems rather moot overall. :PIncidentally, that was an excessively convoluted sentence.~B~

What he said, but I have heard of tornadoes speeding up pieces of straw so fast they cut right through metal. :shrugs:Anyways, the real point about the VN thing here is that the Great Cataclysm probably couldn't have been foreseen by the GB (from the Kapura principle), so that whole thing is irrelevant. It's VN's central placement for the countless more years before the GC that's relevant.And I would assume that hearing news being passed around would be the main benefit of that. Of course, we should also note that it's only central if you include the legs, but it was said that Matoran don't live down there or something. Still, it's in the torso, so it's better than in one of the arms for example. Greg once said that news travels fast in the MU, and I got the impression that meant mainly the torso areas. Could be wrong. Edited May 9, 2012 by bonesiii

[renaldohoek]

What if it's Pewku?She's named. She's been around for a while, and I can imagine Orkham brought her with him to Spherus Magna following the reconstruction. It was never said if she was "created by Mata Nui" or not, but disguising oneself as something as insignificant as a crab would seem ideal for a covert operation such as this.*Hong Kong Phooey face*

[Dralcax]

What if it's Pewku?She's named. She's been around for a while, and I can imagine Orkham brought her with him to Spherus Magna following the reconstruction. It was never said if she was "created by Mata Nui" or not, but disguising oneself as something as insignificant as a crab would seem ideal for a covert operation such as this.*Hong Kong Phooey face*

It's highly likely that Makuta created her, and the GB is male.

[The Swimming Beard]

What if it's Pewku?She's named. She's been around for a while, and I can imagine Orkham brought her with him to Spherus Magna following the reconstruction. It was never said if she was "created by Mata Nui" or not, but disguising oneself as something as insignificant as a crab would seem ideal for a covert operation such as this.*Hong Kong Phooey face*

I seriously doubt the Great Being would take the form of a Rahi. How would you observe anything that way?

[renaldohoek]

What if it's Pewku?She's named. She's been around for a while, and I can imagine Orkham brought her with him to Spherus Magna following the reconstruction. It was never said if she was "created by Mata Nui" or not, but disguising oneself as something as insignificant as a crab would seem ideal for a covert operation such as this.*Hong Kong Phooey face*

It's highly likely that Makuta created her, and the GB is male.

But did Greg ever confirm that Makuta created Pewku?Also, being able to take on the form of an Ussal crab (be it male of female) is where the whole "disguise" aspect comes into play. I doubt it would be hard for people who build giant robots--operated by hundreds of thousands of smaller automatons--to be good at outsmarting other people.Maybe it's a goofy idea, but it's is part of my thought process; I'm looking for candidates that fit the criteria, and so far, a lot of them are being debunked, so there's some barrel-digging to do. Edited May 11, 2012 by renaldohoek

[Voxumo]

now i still support DARKNESS as my choice but i notice alot of people seem to rule out toa in general as not being the GB because they go out and actively participate in the universe. Well here is my reply to that,Who the heck said toa had to get involved in the universe? i mean come on why can't there be a toa who just decides to resume their life as if nothing happened. no one says they have to fight crime or do other toa like says maybe before becoming a toa that matoran was a lazy couch potatoes, do you really think being changed into a toa is gonna cause him to suddenly become active and non lazy person. they may change form but that does not change their personality or who they really were before becoming a toa. just food for thought.

[bonesiii]

Who the heck said toa had to get involved in the universe? i mean come on why can't there be a toa who just decides to resume their life as if nothing happened.

It's possible, but as I said, it would make the GB stick out like a sore thumb. Both evil and good groups would want such a Toa to join their groups. Good ones would make the pitch that basically with great power comes great responsibility, and evil ones would make the pitch "you're evil 'cuz you said no to the good guys." If you said no to the bad guys you might make yourself a target as suspected competition, if no to the good guys, earn yourself close scrutiny.It would be smarter to be someone with no great power, thus no great responsibility, or so I think.For such a Toa to keep their freedom, I think they'd have to live like a hermit, far from anybody's watchful eye, not continue living their lives. Also it's arguable that destiny would not allow such a person to become a Toa if they weren't going to do what was needed.