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Insane Kestora

Kestora Red Star Nanotech

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#1 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 02:07 AM

I've been having some thoughts about the sanity of the Kestora: this has come up in a few other topics regarding their behavior on the Red Star, and the general image I've seen is that the Kestora are considered to be insane for their attitude toward Life from the Matoran Universe. I'd submit that, rather than their views being those of people with a questionable psychological state, their views toward the MU Inhabitants are simply different and reflect a lack of understanding that the MU Inhabitants are fully alive and aware as we know them to be.

In "The Yesterday Quest" Ch. 1, Angonce is shown to have fairly mixed feelings regarding the MU people fighting and dying for their freedom. He uses the phrase "nanotech creations" as a general descriptor and "bio-mechanical servitors" to label their expected behavior. Their current status as a new species is explained as their being "glitches" in the AI. Alright, so we all knew that last point, but it is an important thing.

My theory is that the Kestora are simply acting according to their perception of the MU Races as simply being nanotech robots which are deviating from their expected course of behavior. Through their experiments they seek to determine a cause for the failure of their own systems by looking at the defects in the MU AI's.

It's disturbingly reminiscent of horrific endeavors like those of the Nazis who sought to create a master race by experimenting with fixing the "defects" of "lower people." Only instead we are taking apart sentient computers to figure out how their bugs might be affecting the effectiveness of the overall system we are trying to maintain.

Thoughts? Did I miss a Greg answer or story detail that tells us the Kestora are nuts?

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#2 Online ~T1S~

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 02:39 AM

No, you haven't missed anything from Greg, as far as I'm aware.
I must say, that is an excellent take on the Kestora. But it makes me wonder: Were the Kestora designed with the level of sentience they appear to have? Or is that a "glitch" in their system, as well? And do the GBs consider them "nanotech" as well? Or is there something distinctly different about their physical makeup that distinguishes them from MU inhabitants?

 

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#3 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 08:53 AM

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering why people considered them to be "insane" - clearly they were doing their job. Dissecting other beings? That's part of their job.


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#4 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 12:16 PM

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering why people considered them to be "insane" - clearly they were doing their job. Dissecting other beings? That's part of their job.

 

Dissection isn't part of their job. Their job is to maintain the RS revival system, not to be dissecting the revivees. 

 

And a broken teleporter has nothing to do with the sentience of MU inhabitants. Dissecting them wouldn't tell them how it broke, even if they thought the MU inhabitants broke it. Interrogations would work better. 

 

And after 90,000 years of MU sentience, wouldn't have they had started to figure out that it was just one teleporter that broke, the other one works just fine, and to repair the first one? (And that interrogations would work better?)

 

Are the Kestora purely robots? Other than that possibility, I think they have a few screws loose.


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#5 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 12:27 PM

 

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering why people considered them to be "insane" - clearly they were doing their job. Dissecting other beings? That's part of their job.

 

Dissection isn't part of their job. Their job is to maintain the RS revival system, not to be dissecting the revivees. 

 

And a broken teleporter has nothing to do with the sentience of MU inhabitants. Dissecting them wouldn't tell them how it broke, even if they thought the MU inhabitants broke it. Interrogations would work better. 

 

And after 90,000 years of MU sentience, wouldn't have they had started to figure out that it was just one teleporter that broke, the other one works just fine, and to repair the first one? (And that interrogations would work better?)

 

Are the Kestora purely robots? Other than that possibility, I think they have a few screws loose.

 

Let me clarify: to revive inhabitants of the Matoran universe and send them back. That may well require dissection of corpses - say, if the system refuses to send the revived beings back. I'm confused - one teleporter is working?


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#6 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 12:40 PM

 

 

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering why people considered them to be "insane" - clearly they were doing their job. Dissecting other beings? That's part of their job.

 

Dissection isn't part of their job. Their job is to maintain the RS revival system, not to be dissecting the revivees. 

 

And a broken teleporter has nothing to do with the sentience of MU inhabitants. Dissecting them wouldn't tell them how it broke, even if they thought the MU inhabitants broke it. Interrogations would work better. 

 

And after 90,000 years of MU sentience, wouldn't have they had started to figure out that it was just one teleporter that broke, the other one works just fine, and to repair the first one? (And that interrogations would work better?)

 

Are the Kestora purely robots? Other than that possibility, I think they have a few screws loose.

 

Let me clarify: to revive inhabitants of the Matoran universe and send them back. That may well require dissection of corpses - say, if the system refuses to send the revived beings back. I'm confused - one teleporter is working?

 

The teleporter that brings people up to the star is still working. 

 

But you would think that after 90,000 years, the theory would have come up that the system is broken, not the people, you know?


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#7 Offline BobaFett2

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 12:49 PM

 

 

 

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering why people considered them to be "insane" - clearly they were doing their job. Dissecting other beings? That's part of their job.

 

Dissection isn't part of their job. Their job is to maintain the RS revival system, not to be dissecting the revivees. 

 

And a broken teleporter has nothing to do with the sentience of MU inhabitants. Dissecting them wouldn't tell them how it broke, even if they thought the MU inhabitants broke it. Interrogations would work better. 

 

And after 90,000 years of MU sentience, wouldn't have they had started to figure out that it was just one teleporter that broke, the other one works just fine, and to repair the first one? (And that interrogations would work better?)

 

Are the Kestora purely robots? Other than that possibility, I think they have a few screws loose.

 

Let me clarify: to revive inhabitants of the Matoran universe and send them back. That may well require dissection of corpses - say, if the system refuses to send the revived beings back. I'm confused - one teleporter is working?

 

The teleporter that brings people up to the star is still working. 

 

But you would think that after 90,000 years, the theory would have come up that the system is broken, not the people, you know?

 

Is the teleporter that beams them up in the Matoran Universe or the Red Star? Also, whether or not they can fix it depends on a lot of things.


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#8 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 03:03 PM

My thoughts exactly. I was wondering why people considered them to be "insane" - clearly they were doing their job. Dissecting other beings? That's part of their job.

 
Dissection isn't part of their job. Their job is to maintain the RS revival system, not to be dissecting the revivees. 
 
And a broken teleporter has nothing to do with the sentience of MU inhabitants. Dissecting them wouldn't tell them how it broke, even if they thought the MU inhabitants broke it. Interrogations would work better. 
 
And after 90,000 years of MU sentience, wouldn't have they had started to figure out that it was just one teleporter that broke, the other one works just fine, and to repair the first one? (And that interrogations would work better?)
 
Are the Kestora purely robots? Other than that possibility, I think they have a few screws loose.

Let me clarify: to revive inhabitants of the Matoran universe and send them back. That may well require dissection of corpses - say, if the system refuses to send the revived beings back. I'm confused - one teleporter is working?

The teleporter that brings people up to the star is still working. 
 
But you would think that after 90,000 years, the theory would have come up that the system is broken, not the people, you know?


I highly doubt they'd jump to dissection as soon as the system broke. If something breaks, you have to try and fix it. Before you can fix it, though, you have to figure out what's wrong. Interrogating the MU People about it would be kinda odd, as they presumably have no clue about what the teleporter system is. If they physically trashed it... that's another story and doesn't even require any questions: you find the broken pieces and replace them.

So, 90,000 years later, they still haven't found out what is wrong with the teleportation system, and they've begun this disgusting line of inquiry under the assumption that the problem lies in what they are teleporting (if you've ever watched Star Trek, you'll know that this comes up on occaision).

On Kestora being robots: BS01 says that they are Biomechanicle and labels them as a sapient species: unknown if this is an assumption on our part on viewing the storyline and they are following a program or if they have also deviated from the program. I'd vote being on a program, as a free-thinking mind might actually notice that they are cutting open people, not machine.

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#9 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 16 2013 - 06:26 PM

the general image I've seen is that the Kestora are considered to be insane for their attitude toward Life from the Matoran Universe

Are you saying that you thought the reason that we think the Kestora are insane is stuff like wanting to dissect people? That may be a part of it, certainly, but sane and evil people could do that too -- no, it's for how they behave. Re-read their sections of the story, the most important points bolded here:

 

“What are you doing here?” one of the beings asked. “You need to go back. You should be gone by now.”

“No,” said another. “Don’t you remember what happened the last time? They wouldn’t go back and we had to --”

The third interrupted, pointing at Gaardus. “That one has been here before. He was the last. He must know why no one can go now.”

“But look at them!” said the first to speak. “It must be working again, or how could they be here like that?”

The others paused, as if acknowledging their friend had a point. The one who had remembered Gaardus nodded, saying, “Very well. But if it doesn’t work, do we need to end them like the other ones?”

All three little beings produced wicked looking hand weapons. “Naturally,” said the first. “How else are we to make things right?”

 

“We are the Kestora,” said one of the purple and black beings. “We are the ones who keep this place operating. But it has not been operating, not for a very long time. And it is his fault,” he added, pointing at Gaardus.

“I did nothing!” Gaardus hissed, unfurling his great wings. “I did not choose to come here. I did not choose to leave.”

“No one ever does,” replied the Kestora.

“Can you put the weapons down, so we can talk like civilized beings?” asked Pohatu.

The three Kestora raised their weapons higher in answer and began to squeeze the triggers. In an instant, Pohatu had seemingly vanished. When he reappeared, the Kestora had been disarmed and he held all their weapons.

“I said – oh, never mind, you know what I said,” Pohatu chuckled. “Now what’s all this about coming and going? What is this, some kind of a transport hub?”

“In a sense,” said one of the Kestora.

“Yes, you might say that,” said the second.

“Or you might not,” the third interjected. “Anyway, the three of you need to be going. You got what you came here for, time to leave.”

“Got what we ---?” Kopaka repeated. “By Mata Nui, someday I will meet a foe who gives a straight answer to a straight question, and I will be so shocked I will --”

“Crack a smile?” finished Pohatu. He turned to the three small beings. “Now, listen. Where is it we are supposed to be going?”

“Back to Mata Nui, of course,” said one of the Kestora, as if he we speaking to a child. “Back where you belong.”

“Mata Nui is so much junk in the Bara Magna desert by now,” said Pohatu. “You guys must not get out much.”

“If that’s true, then we can’t send them back,” said the first Kestora. “There is nowhere to send them back to.”

“Well, they can’t stay here,” said the second firmly. “We have too many as it is.”

“We could keep them,” suggested the third. “Maybe a dissection would tell us why they can’t go back. Of course, we tried that before, and all we wound up with was a mess … a lot of messes, actually … but maybe this time --”

Clearly, their grip on reality is unsteady, and their memories are seriously compromised. Mutran is called insane for far less, and Vezon is insane while being kind of similar to this though in a different way. Although, I don't think we have tended to assume they're definitely insane. Some of it could be understandable -- if only one of these three happened to see Gaardus, and if they did get forgetful just due to the huge timespans involved. But they keep saying and doing things that contradict what they had just reminded themselves of just seconds ago. It comes across as classic Greg-style insanity portrayals IMO, though obviously that's not all that's going on here.

 

Even with the final line about dissection, it's not so much the heinousness of dissecting people but that they still think this is a useful course of action even though it has never helped them in the slightest before. You know that quote by Einstein? "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Methinks this is where people are coming from, plus the constant, Vezon-esque self-contradictions.

 

I'd submit that, rather than their views being those of people with a questionable psychological state, their views toward the MU Inhabitants are simply different and reflect a lack of understanding that the MU Inhabitants are fully alive and aware as we know them to be.

This is possible, but over that span of time, you might have to be a bit insane not to recognize that the original assumption of the GBs isn't correct. However, one idea that's been floated (and reading on I see it's been mentioned already) is that it might simply be the other way around -- perhaps the Kestora are not fully sapient and aren't really capable of recognizing full sapience by virtue of that. Maybe the Kestora actually are what the GBs thought everybody they made would be.

 

IMO whatever's up with Velika is important to this, since he is fully sapient and spent plenty of time to recognize it in the MU beings but is okay with murder based on the GBs' original programming guidelines. Still not really sure what to think of that, but the Kestora kind of remind me of him.

 

But you would think that after 90,000 years, the theory would have come up that the system is broken, not the people, you know?

We don't know enough to say that it didn't, and the opposite seems to be the case:
 

“Otherwise, we are going to get very tired of each other’s company,” agreed Pohatu. “Want me to scout ahead?”

“No, I --” Kopaka began, even as Pohatu winked out of existence and then back again.

“Too late,” said Pohatu. “Already did it. Not much to see. Lots of labs. Some old machinery, looks like it’s been jury-rigged a few hundred times.

Assuming it was Kestora actually trying to do their jobs in the early days, and not revived people trying to do the Kestora's jobs for them, they must have tried to repair the system. But they might have been lousy at it and only made it worse, similar to Karzahni.

 

Also, theories have been come up with that something in the beings' minds might explain why the teleporter isn't working. It's possible the Kestora were right to at least think of the possibility. But wrong to murder people to test it. :P (If the Sendback is activated telepathically by the sendee like a mask power and the revival machine messes up their ability to interface with it.)

 

About the two teleporters, we don't know that there is a Bringup teleporter in the Red Star, only that a teleporter sends them there; if it is a Sendup that is in the Matoran Universe, which seems implied by several of Greg's quotes as discussed in my comments in the official topic's firstpost, then the Kestora wouldn't have access to the one that's working.

 

Still, everything you say about how illogical going to dissection is to try to solve the problem might be right, I'm just saying we can't assume it. Clearly it didn't help; the Kestora said so themselves.

 

On Kestora being robots: BS01 says that they are Biomechanicle and labels them as a sapient species: unknown if this is an assumption on our part on viewing the storyline and they are following a program or if they have also deviated from the program. I'd vote being on a program, as a free-thinking mind might actually notice that they are cutting open people, not machine.

Although I'm pretty sure we do know they're biomechanical, as far as I know sapient is an assumption. However, I'd vote against "just a program" because Greg said that the GBs did intend the MU beings to be partially sapient, just not have culture and the like. Kestora don't really seem to have a developed culture so this may be evidence of the partial sapience. Or, they might be fully sapient and insane. (Or partially sapient and glitching... or evil...) But they do seem to have emotions and the like.


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#10 Offline skratchR

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Posted Dec 17 2013 - 12:45 PM

And the question is, the pople who died on mata nui or voya nui, ¿did they go to the red star?

After all, they are outside the MU, and jaller died and was brought back, but he did not talk about kestora or the red star.


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#11 Offline Chro

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Posted Dec 17 2013 - 05:57 PM

And the question is, the pople who died on mata nui or voya nui, ¿did they go to the red star?

After all, they are outside the MU, and jaller died and was brought back, but he did not talk about kestora or the red star.

Jaller was brought back by Takutanuva, not the Red Star.


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#12 Offline Gengar

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Posted Dec 17 2013 - 06:10 PM

And the question is, the pople who died on mata nui or voya nui, ¿did they go to the red star?

No.

 

From BS01:

 

 

The Red Star was also meant to keep the population of the Matoran Universe stable. Any being who died in the Matoran Universe was intended to be transported to the Red Star where they would be placed in a new body, and then returned to the robot in order to continue working. However, the return function did not work as planned, and newly-revived beings were consequently trapped on the Red Star, unable to be teleported back.

And:

 

 

The Matoran Universe is the name given to the internal environment of the Mata Nui Robot.

 

Mata nui and Voya Nui(after the great cataclysm) are both outside the MU.


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#13 Online bonesiii

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Posted Dec 17 2013 - 06:22 PM

And the question is, the pople who died on mata nui or voya nui, ¿did they go to the red star?

After all, they are outside the MU, and jaller died and was brought back, but he did not talk about kestora or the red star.

This really is off-topic here, but could have been better asked in the new official topic. The answer is that we do not know.

And the question is, the pople who died on mata nui or voya nui, ¿did they go to the red star?

No.

 

From BS01:

The Red Star was also meant to keep the population of the Matoran Universe stable. Any being who died in the Matoran Universe was intended to be transported to the Red Star where they would be placed in a new body, and then returned to the robot in order to continue working. However, the return function did not work as planned, and newly-revived beings were consequently trapped on the Red Star, unable to be teleported back.

And:

The Matoran Universe is the name given to the internal environment of the Mata Nui Robot.

 

Mata nui and Voya Nui(after the great cataclysm) are both outside the MU.

Please see discussion of this in the official topic's firstpost; there are four big problems with this common misconception: 1) Greg never said it; it does not come from any official source as far as I can find, 2) "Matoran Universe" does not have a clear official definition anyways that absolutely excludes Mata Nui and Voya Nui, both of which are made of protodermis from the giant robot, 3) Hydraxon was revived from the Pit which is outside what, at least, we normally think of as the MU (though just inside the robot), and 4) Greg directly suggested the opposite may be the case; that it's keyed into inhabitants, and declined to say one way or the other whether being outside the MU would make a difference. Ergo, we don't know.

 

Also, at least one other quote about Jaller strongly implies that if Takutanuva hadn't revived him he would have gone to the RS, but it's not clear.

 

Basically, BS01 is just stating what we do, at least, know for sure, not what we can deny for sure. It should not be taken as definitely excluding MU beings outside the "MU" (and we should be careful with assuming we know the limits of what counts as the MU anyways). Technically, the misconception makes the fallacy of denying the antecedent or fallacy of the inverse (If in MU, revived, not in MU, therefore not revived -- no, that would only work if the first premise said "only" in the MU.)

 

Edit: And the most relevant Greg quote proving that at least at the time he said it, we don't know is:

 

As well as the fact that he was on Spherus Magna and the RS could not have brought him back anyways?

Well, we don't know that.

The RS is keyed in to MU inhabitants.

We don't know the fact that he was no longer in the MU would have made a difference. Might have made a difference to his being sent back ...

But the RS isn't sending anyone back now anyway.

If in fact he has more recently decided one way or another, I would please ask whoever knows of the new quote to forward it to me for use in the official topic's factlist. :)

 

But anyways, please save general RS discussion after this post for either a new topic or the official guide topic. :) We're discussing the mental state of Kestora here. I've just linked to this post for future reference in the official topic here; if you wish to continue that discussion you may reply there.


Edited by bonesiii, Dec 17 2013 - 07:02 PM.

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#14 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 19 2013 - 01:52 AM

And the question is, the pople who died on mata nui or voya nui, ¿did they go to the red star?
After all, they are outside the MU, and jaller died and was brought back, but he did not talk about kestora or the red star.

I'm not sure off-topic quite covers it, Bones.

Jaller was revived through a different means, so he wouldn't have any thoughts to offer on the question about the Kestora's sanity...which -is- the question for this topic.

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