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Why were there no Kra-Matoran?

shadow matoran kra av-matoran elements

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#1 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 06:45 AM

Pretty much what it says on the tin. There were Matoran of every Element from the MU's inception, except for Shadow. Bear in mind that Shadow was just seen as part of the balance in the early Matoran Universe, and not evil until the Fire Nation attacked the Brotherhood started messing things up later on. It just feels wrong, and incomplete that these wonderful Elements that co-existed peacefully were technically unbalanced.

 

I suppose you could argue that this lack of Shadow was made up for by Makuta...but still, you know what I mean.

 

And why is the idea of a Toa of Light so amazing? I mean, sure there haven't been any at all until Takanuva showed up, but my point is why haven't there been any? And if Shadow Matoran were actually normal, shouldn't Toa of Shadow be normal too (I know they're not but hypothetically would they be, or would they be special like Av-Toa. I guess they would be because Light and Shadow in Bionicle are a bit like Matter and Antimatter: identical opposites lol)

 

Any suggestions?


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#2 Online Tenth Norik

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 08:35 AM

From Bs01,

 

The Kanohi Avohkii was created on the island of Artakha, as a safeguard against the possibility of the Brotherhood of Makuta turning evil.

 

Thus, one would expect that a Toa of Light is unique from the fact that ONE Avohkii was created as a safeguard, not a speciality. Also. all Av-Matoran were kept in the Karda-Nui Ceiling for a long time(their whole existence). So, Light Matoran were special, and they were kept in the ceiling and never came out until the BoM started to be evil. So, evidently, pure light creatures were too powerful to run around as Toa. Imagine if just one went rogue. the balance of the Mu would be messed up.

 

Thus, Light and Shadow were, even from the start, something special. Similarly, I assume the GBs decided that the Makuta were given Shadow powers and that was enough to "balance" what few Av-Matoran already existed.


Edited by Norik Of Gielinor, Dec 21 2013 - 08:37 AM.

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#3 Offline Gravity

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 09:37 AM

It's a very interesting question, especially considering the fact that the beings in the GSR had no moral connotations against Shadow at the time, so there wasn't a reason to not make Shadow a normal element like the others.  At least from the viewpoint of the inhabitants. 

 

Now, the answer to this may be a similar one as to why the Great Beings made Fire, Ice, Water, Air, Stone, and Earth the six most prevalent elements in the MU, it's just how it happened, and it could have easily have happened in reverse (The Makuta having powers over Light, and a Great Kanohi of Shadow was created on Artahka to safeguard against the possibility of the Makuta disrupting the internal workings of the GSR), or with a completely different pair of elements. (Fire and Ice, anyone?)

 

Or perhaps it was that even though the Great Being's creations had no moral connotations against Shadow, the Great Beings themselves might have thought of the power as inherently "evil", and that opinion guided them when designing the MU.  Thus limiting the amount of beings who had access to the power.

 

I'm really just throwing ideas out here, quick things that I've thought of on the topic.

 

And I do like what Norik said on the topic of balance between the two elements.


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#4 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 09:47 AM

From Bs01,

 

 

 

The Kanohi Avohkii was created on the island of Artakha, as a safeguard against the possibility of the Brotherhood of Makuta turning evil.

 

Thus, one would expect that a Toa of Light is unique from the fact that ONE Avohkii was created as a safeguard, not a speciality. Also. all Av-Matoran were kept in the Karda-Nui Ceiling for a long time(their whole existence). So, Light Matoran were special, and they were kept in the ceiling and never came out until the BoM started to be evil. So, evidently, pure light creatures were too powerful to run around as Toa. Imagine if just one went rogue. the balance of the Mu would be messed up.

 

Thus, Light and Shadow were, even from the start, something special. Similarly, I assume the GBs decided that the Makuta were given Shadow powers and that was enough to "balance" what few Av-Matoran already existed.

 

Ok, I think I hadn't explained myself properly.

 

I don't see why the Mask of Light promised a Toa of Light. Sure, it heavily implied it, but not really promised. I mean, to make a Toa conventionally, one gives a destined Matoran some Toa Energy. So if Artahka wanted a Toa of Light as a backup, surely the best course of action would be to leave a Toa Stone or something with the Av-Matoran.

 

This raises a tangential question, because by that logic, if Takua had been given a Toa Stone earlier he should have become a Toa. And, as we know, he was exposed to the Toa Metru's Toa Stones and that didn't do anything to him. It suggests certain conditions sometimes need to be met before a destined Matoran will become a Toa - perhaps Takua's emotional maturity needed to reach the level it was at the end of MoL, and to accept/realise he was an Av-Matoran/"always different". Or, there are different types of Toa Energy, but that doesn't make much sense to me, because Lhikan, of Fire, could give Toa Energy to Matoran of different elements. Unless light is somehow special...ARGH! D':

 

My point is, surely you could have a Toa without a Mask of Light. Indeed, Takanuva can use other Kanohi if he wants. As an insurance against an evil Brotherhood, the Avohkii needs only stand as a Mask, not a Toa Stone? So any Toa could take the mantle of "Toa of Light" by using the mask. It sort of leads onto this other thing that annoys me about elemental Kanohi. Like, what's the point of being a Toa of Gravity who wears a Mask of Gravity if it doesn't add to your Elemental powers? Surely you would only use it if it's not your element. So, I think Takanuva would be better off having just about any other Kanohi so he can have another ability (I know the Avohkii also instills trust etc. but this isn't that big a deal for the most part unless you're being a diplomat, in which case you would probably be better off with a Mask of Charisma. Seeing moral light in others is pretty cool though). My point about the Avohkii is, if you want an insurance against an evil Brotherhood:

 

1. Why won't conventional Toa Stones do the trick (the Avohkii was basically a Toa Stone anyway). You don't need a Mask of Gravity to get a Toa of Gravity, why would light be different, if it even is?

2. Surely a Mask of Light isn't the promise of a Toa of Light, but the promise that at least one Toa could essentially act as an Av-Toa in the event that no real Av-Toa come into being (Since the Avohkii gives Toa level Light powers).

 

 

About the possibility that the lack of Kra-Matoran was made up by Makuta, why bother with Makuta? Why not just have Kra-Matoran, and then Makuta without Shadow powers (they have enough other powers as it is lol)? Surely that would balance things and be more logical/simple?


Edited by NuvaTube, Dec 21 2013 - 10:48 AM.

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#5 Offline LordofBionicles

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 10:22 AM

1. Why won't conventional Toa Stones do the trick (the Avohkii was basically a Toa Stone anyway). You don't need a Mask of Gravity to get a Toa of Gravity, why would light be different, if it even is?

2. Surely a Mask of Light isn't the promise of a Toa of Light, but the promise that at least one Toa could essentially act as an Av-Toa in the event not real Av-Toa come into being (Since the Avohkii gives Toa level Light powers).

 

 

About the possibility that the lack of Kra-Matoran was made up by Makuta, why bother with Makuta? Why not just have Kra-Matoran, and then Makuta without Shadow powers (they have enough other powers as it is lol)? Surely that would balance things and be more logical/simple?

 

 

 

Well you have got to get in mind that Takua becoming a Toa of Light by wearing the Avohkii was mainly because of the scriptwriters for the Mask of Light movie, sometimes those guys tend to do whatever they want never minding if it makes sense to the rest of the storyline.

 

Now about when and how does a Matoran become a Toa, remember that dependes on their destiny, let's say that Vakama as a Matoran tossed his Toa stone at Jaller, then nothing would have happened because that specific stone was made for Vakama and because Jaller's Toa energy was triggered by the Red Star.

 

As to why were there no Kra-Matoran to begin with, I must acknowledge it to be a really interesting question, my guess is that perhaps the Great Beings didn't know how to make them (yeah I know they are gods when it comes to creating and inventing things) but you have made a good point in saying that the universe would have been unbalanced without them, I don't think the Great Beings perceive darkness as evil seeing that they're cold hearted when it comes to what to do with the things they create, so that's my opinion.
 


Edited by LordofBionicles, Dec 21 2013 - 10:24 AM.

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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 12:05 PM

IMO it's because shadow was symbolic of demolition, originally, and all Matoran were supposed to have an inner light balance of creating and destroying, so they could do either. Shadow Matoran with an inner balance (which isn't the same as the Shadow Matoran we got, note) would seem symbolically contradictory; it's true that demolition is one necessary part of a maintenance job; you take out the broken part, but the GBs may have been concerned one group devoted to demolition might glitch to think it's okay to go around trying to demolish the whole place.

 

The main purpose of being there was constructive -- keep it all working -- so it makes sense that they would emphasize this side of the equation more than the other. :)

 

Later that morphed into "good versus evil" with a bit of a hint of the "create vs. destroy" still in it (for example Makuta's MNOG speech about destruction being in all Matoran), so at that point people probably view Shadow as an element meant to be about demolition and meant to be kept in-context, so the Makuta would be presumed to retain their inner light balance, but with a stronger temptation to fall to evil, so it still wouldn't make sense to have a tribe devoted to Shadow among Matoran.


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#7 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 12:44 PM

IMO it's because shadow was symbolic of demolition, originally, and all Matoran were supposed to have an inner light balance of creating and destroying, so they could do either. Shadow Matoran with an inner balance (which isn't the same as the Shadow Matoran we got, note) would seem symbolically contradictory; it's true that demolition is one necessary part of a maintenance job; you take out the broken part, but the GBs may have been concerned one group devoted to demolition might glitch to think it's okay to go around trying to demolish the whole place.

 

If Kra-Matoran with an inner light balance would seem symbolically contradictory, surely Av-Matoran with an inner shadow balance would seem symbolically contradictory too?  :P

 

So shouldn't any Kra-Matoran be wholly balanced by Av-Matoran? You could argue the other way too, for destructively creating, i.e., the group devoted to building glitch and start making loads of things that you don't need. If I think of it in the context of the GSR and an organism, this is almost like a cancer, in that you have uncontrolled cell growth(/creation). In contrast I guess destructive destruction (lol that phrase sounds like non-sense) would be just demolishing things, so more simply where your cells start dying. A healthy body needs the old to die and make way for the new, but for the new to stick around for a while too, as you already sort of said. An imbalance either way is bad. Karz, Fire could have gone bad if it hadn't been for ice (if you want to think of it as Elemental balance although it's more complicated than that). (btw not sure Ice is the "opposite" of fire just assuming).

 

And as for the MU construction needing for there to be a stronger emphasis on creation, I don't get how making Makuta was preferable (and their initial task was actually creating Rahi, not destroying. And they're really the only natural [if you can use the word "natural" in the context of the MU XD] users of Elemental Shadow in the MU. So whilst I see and agree that Shadow has a greater tenancy towards destruction, this isn't really backed in terms of what the GBs planned, considering Makuta). They're much, much more powerful and are IMO a greater threat if they went rouge, they're stronger, more deadly, more intelligent (I think), and more knowledgeable (compare the significance of Teridax's Plan with something like the Matoran Civil War on Metru Nui).

 

Further to the "more emphasis on creation was needed when the MU was being built"; fine, maybe - I can certainly see the logic in that. But once the MU was complete, this state would be unbalanced, so you'd then want Kra-Matoran (with an inner light balance as you say of course). Why have Makuta + Shadow powers (they have loads of other powers mind) to balance things when you can just have Kra-Matoran and be done with it? Makuta later pretty much became guardians of order in the MU, so I think you'd want them to be Elementally neutral. I guess the poetic ideas of Shadow being cold, evil, ignorance etc, and light being warm, good and enlightened was just too attractive for Lego: so if you're going to have a main bad guy he needs to be really tough if the "good" side is represented by 6 heroes. As I say though, I'm not looking for an answer IRL, I'm trying to find an in-canon explanation.


Edited by NuvaTube, Dec 21 2013 - 01:16 PM.

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#8 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 04:09 PM

Well, the Av-Matoran aren't necessarily tipped in their balance towards the Light. One thing to keep in mind about the Matoran is that they are all typically good-natured with only a few bad-eggs (Ahkmou). The reason a Toa of Light is fairly shocking is that you don't just meet Av-Matoran by walking down the Ga-Metru Boardwalk. Why was there not a Kra-Matoran tribe? Well, because there just isn't is probably the sad truth. I don't really know about all this "keep the universe balanced" business. All the beings in the MU started with an inherent balance between their light and darkness.
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#9 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 05:11 PM

Well, the Av-Matoran aren't necessarily tipped in their balance towards the Light. One thing to keep in mind about the Matoran is that they are all typically good-natured with only a few bad-eggs (Ahkmou). The reason a Toa of Light is fairly shocking is that you don't just meet Av-Matoran by walking down the Ga-Metru Boardwalk. Why was there not a Kra-Matoran tribe? Well, because there just isn't is probably the sad truth. I don't really know about all this "keep the universe balanced" business. All the beings in the MU started with an inherent balance between their light and darkness.

 

We meant the other Elements in terms of "balance". Internal Light/Shadow balances are something else. When I'm talking about Kra-Matoran, I'm assuming they have their inner light/shadow reasonably balanced, like normal Matoran. So different Matoran specialise in different things, like ice and fire, Ko-Matoran and Ta-Matoran, respectively. They are sorted into different Elements partly to be specialised and thus more efficient at different things. Mentally, "All Ta-Matoran have been said to be mathematicians at heart, which makes jobs where exact proportions are needed relatively easy." and physically, they have a good resistance to heat, so they're naturally better off doing things like blacksmithing. If you have too many Ta-Matoran, or no Ko-Matoran/not enough Ko-Matoran, your system (the Mata Nui robot's internal functions) won't be working as well as they could be, because jobs that need to be done in cold conditions (Ko-Matoran naturally have a good resistance against cold temperatures) will be done less effectively if you only have Ta-Matoran who hate the cold. So in terms of different elements being balanced, this is what I mean, that the different elements are there for a reason, but they need to work together to work properly. So this sparked the question as to why there were no Shadow Matoran to start with if there were Av-Matoran. Apparently there was a need for Shadow to be in the MU, since the Makuta were made, but why couldn't you just have Matoran?

 

It's arguably not healthy to only have Light, like it's not healthy to have only Shadow, although achiever either one gives you some limited powers, where being a being of pure Inner Shadow is easier to do, but it's generally preferable to become a being of pure Inner Light, but it's harder to do. The Makuta and Roodaka are known to have purged their inner light, they have more aggressive tendancies. Umbra, a guardian of the Mask of Life, was a being of pure Inner Light, and he wasn't particularly nice IMO. I mean sure, he was doing his job, but his devotion to his duty was pretty ruthless (which is what was needed tbf but still).


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#10 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 08:01 PM

I thought the Makuta didn't even have elemental Shadow powers until they gave up their inner light. They just had the limited Kraata power of darkness, which is just an antidermis property. As a result, I think the GBs didn't want shadow in their universe. At all.

 

They trained the Makuta in the alt. dimension to give up their inner shadow, remember? 


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#11 Offline Chro

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 08:57 PM

As you mentioned, NuvaTube, each type of Matoran had a purpose. Maybe there was just no purpose available for Kra-Matoran...?

Anyway, now I'm really tempted to write some story about how there used to be Kra-Matoran but they were killed off, hidden away, etc. by the Hand of Artahka or something...

From Bs01,

The Kanohi Avohkii was created on the island of Artakha, as a safeguard against the possibility of the Brotherhood of Makuta turning evil.

The Avohkii isn't really related to this issue at all, though... >.>


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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 21 2013 - 11:54 PM

If Kra-Matoran with an inner light balance would seem symbolically contradictory, surely Av-Matoran with an inner shadow balance would seem symbolically contradictory too?  :P

No; like I said, construction was to be emphasized more than demolition. It's that point that I meant would be contradictory with having Matoran of the element of Shadow, not versus having an inner balance. The whole post was meant to be taken in context to make that clear. :P But sorry for the confusing wording. Was in a hurry at the time.

 

So shouldn't any Kra-Matoran be wholly balanced by Av-Matoran?

Since being constructive was the emphasis, no. The "balance" here would only be symbolic -- a being with the inner light/shadow balance will not be compulsorily led to destroy like the Shadow Matoran of 2008. But it might confuse a being (whether sapient or not) and cause more glitches anyways (or more temptation). In fact this is probably part of why they started out with Av-Matoran (although a more relevant part is probably because this was before the lights came on in the MU, so they were their own flashlights lol, with their small light power).

 

Something that occurred to me for some reason while typing the above is -- I wonder if despite the challenges of an imbalance, the GBs imagined their programmed AIs would possibly drain themselves of light anywhere a focused demolition crew was needed? That way, there could be Shadow Matoran anywhere at any time if necessary (by the 2008 definition), which may have seemed more efficient than a regular, inner-balanced tribe with the element who is thus only symbolically attached with the demolition idea. (This would require a strong certainty that they would submit to something like a Klakk reversal of the light draining once the job was done, though.)

 

Another thing is, the Makuta themselves were sort of the Kra-Matoran replacements -- with the actual ability to use the element, not just have a Matoran's minor ability. They might simply have felt it would be redundant, since having Matoran of Shadow implies you may get Toa of Shadow.

 

You could argue the other way too, for destructively creating, i.e., the group devoted to building glitch and start making loads of things that you don't need.

Sure, though here's where caution about the "construction/demolition" theory needs to come in. Umbra was intentionally created with no moral shadow, but we don't see tons of arts and crafts littering the 777 stairs. :P (I would take that to mean pure inner light doesn't force you to go around making tons of stuff anymore than a Shadow Matoran goes around destroying everything, but those kinds of glitches might be made more likely.) Not that this is really relevant to your point; yes, that kind of glitch is possible too. But they might feel this would be far less of a problem, for good reason!

 

If I think of it in the context of the GSR and an organism, this is almost like a cancer, in that you have uncontrolled cell growth

Maybe, though they would generally be making things out of other things, and then maybe recycling things they'd already made. But anyways, the track you took that point along really isn't what I meant; just that the GBs might feel having the Matoran -- the maintenance workers -- have an element symbolically associated with destruction would send a rather mixed message. Having powerful scientists associated with demolition (without the GBs knowing they were fully sapient) may make much more sense, though they would rarely do that themselves.

 

(btw not sure Ice is the "opposite" of fire just assuming).

Cold is the opposite of heat. So sort of. The other parts are flammable materials (unsure if necessarily gaseous, could be liquid or even dustlike) turned into a plasma, and water, which don't in and of themselves sound very opposite; a true opposite is a lack of the other, but different types of matter aren't really opposites to others.

 

I don't get how making Makuta was preferable (and their initial task was actually creating Rahi, not destroying.

Right, but they, too, were intended to have an inner light/shadow balance. The actual element would be seen only as a tool useful for some parts of demolition work and thus symbolic of that work in general. If they ever actually did destroy old stuff, they'd more likely use various others of their many powers. It makes sense to have your most powerful demolishers have their main job be about making things, if you want your universe to emphasize construction rather than destruction. :) (Plus, even if they were to later on, as things started to wear out more, and new Rahi were less necessary, move more to the task of regular demolitions, which is not at all confirmed, real-life demolishers will have to be clever about making the right tools to aid in the task, like well-controlled explosives, and some of that might apply in the MU.)

 

They're much, much more powerful and are IMO a greater threat if they went [rogue]

Yes, but that would be the case of anyone given the power to handle the large demolition jobs, even if that was strictly by tools. The sheer enormity of some of the parts of the giant robot that could eventually wear out might require individual beings to weild such a wide range of destructive powers.

 

Keep in mind that even under the construction = light, demolition = shadow theory (which is mainly theorized to explain the inner shadow since GBs wouldn't want there to be evil, not the outward elements themselves), it's assumed there are other effects of the inner polarities, some of which might even be more relevant, like how they relate to each other. But I don't think much discussion has yet gone to what those other effects might be in a non-fully-sapient vision by the GBs of the MU, so I refer to that theory mainly for convenience to try to offer answers. :) It isn't an easy, automatic fit to all the evidence.

 

more intelligent (I think)

Not necessarily; I'd say just more oriented toward active scientific research, rather than everyday maintenance. They may be a bit smarter, though.

 

and more knowledgeable (compare the significance of Teridax's Plan with something like the Matoran Civil War on Metru Nui).

His (second, successful) Plan was only made possible by a revelation from Tren Krom, though. (And oddly he never actually thought of it until trapped in the protocage, though the slumber part of the original Plan was pretty bad too.) Plus, being focused on scientific research would naturally tend to make you more knowledgeable about some things, though I imagine many in or trained in Ga-Metru for example might be more so, or roughly parallel (but not sure that was entirely GB-intended either...).

 

Further to the "more emphasis on creation was needed when the MU was being built"; fine, maybe - I can certainly see the logic in that. But once the MU was complete, this state would be unbalanced

All maintenance work is focused on the creating side, though -- the destruction is then just seen as a means to the end, a necessary step before you can install the new part, and/or beneficial for recycling purposes rather than just throwing things into a junkyard. And when I use the word "constructive" I mean it in the full sense of the word -- not just "making stuff" but doing good; the entire MU was about a vital task, so having things in it that emphasize destruction might not be that great. They might also have kinda learned their lesson from the Baterra fiasco. :shrugs:

 

So, being constructive, even just for making stuff, doesn't really stop, though it would slow down, as long as stuff keeps wearing out. Plus, beings with a balance wouldn't feel unusually compelled to do either; they would be naturally at peace doing other jobs just to keep themselves running and stuff until needed for actual maintenance eventually.

 

But once the MU was complete, this state would be unbalanced, so you'd then want Kra-Matoran (with an inner light balance as you say of course).

But really, why? Balanced Kra-Matoran don't give an especially significant advantage to demolition in their non-glitching state. Not even sure what their elemental trait would be, actually, but I doubt it would be very directly destructive. The benefit would be symbolic only, and it would seem impractical to have to have them move where needed, when Matoran of any element could do that job probably just as well, just to maintain the symbolism. It's a practical universe, as intended.

 

you'd then want Kra-Matoran (with an inner light balance as you say of course). Why have Makuta + Shadow powers (they have loads of other powers mind) to balance things when you can just have Kra-Matoran and be done with it?

Well, continuing along the lines of the previous paragraph, Makuta have teleportation powers, so they will be able to rapidly get to wherever an unusually skilled demolisher is needed, far better than a Matoran. :) Plus having your demolishers use powers is probably way safer, assuming nothing goes wrong with their minds, to the demolisher. Matoran would have to use tools, bombs, careful deconstruction by hand and later melting, etc. so they'd have to get in and around the big, dangerous parts more, and be more likely to be accidentally crushed and the like.

 

That's less a problem considering some of them would become Toa of Shadow, but still, big demolition tasks make sense to later on be assigned to bigger users of the element associated with it.

 

But this is probably getting a bit too theoretical-upon-theoretical... It may just be that they wanted powerful scientist dudes to make Rahi, and protect themselves against their own creations if things went wrong, and decided while they were giving them a bunch of powers, why not have one be an element associated with them, and then thought having someone else also have it would be unneccessary, and picked Shadow due to the significance from the inner system.

 

As for what would happen if a Makuta glitches to go rogue, probably other Makuta would be assigned to hunt them down, or Mata Nui would be expected to intervene, or Toa would be expected to team up in large numbers to take them on. If the whole group went rogue, probably more Mata Nui than anything else, though there are things which work as safeguards against Makuta -- the Plasma element is especially effective for example.

 

Iron, too, once they turned to a gaseous form. May even be that their natural transformation to that state after a while was part of such a safeguard, as the GBs may have thought that there could be a period between when most needed Rahi were made and before major parts started to wear out where inaction might drive more to glitching. So now Iron could easily break their armor and Plasma could destroy them.

 

I thought the Makuta didn't even have elemental Shadow powers until they gave up their inner light. They just had the limited Kraata power of darkness, which is just an antidermis property. As a result, I think the GBs didn't want shadow in their universe. At all.

Hm... I'd like to know if that's true (first sentence) -- if only because in my retelling I assumed they did get the element of Shadow naturally. I suppose it makes sense that way.

 

Though, I wouldn't say they didn't want the element in their universe, or they wouldn't have made it (they didn't want Sand in their universe :P). But they may have wanted it to be available to anyone anytime it was really needed by intentional draining of inner light (presumably temporary).


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#13 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Dec 22 2013 - 06:20 PM

On the subject of Makuta and an original ability to control Shadow, they purged their inner light after beginning their rebellion, right? Miserix uses a Shadow bolt against Teridax in the Mutran Chronicles, true though it be that this instance by itself isn't very strong evidence, as Roodaka can do something similar (though the Shadow energy she uses is noted on BS01 as being non-elemental) by tapping into her own inner darkness (not sure if she's purged her inner light).
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#14 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 01:06 PM

On the subject of Makuta and an original ability to control Shadow, they purged their inner light after beginning their rebellion, right? Miserix uses a Shadow bolt against Teridax in the Mutran Chronicles, true though it be that this instance by itself isn't very strong evidence, as Roodaka can do something similar (though the Shadow energy she uses is noted on BS01 as being non-elemental) by tapping into her own inner darkness (not sure if she's purged her inner light).

We know that they purged their inner light. But we don't think we know if they didn't already have Shadow Powers...

 

I think the fact that they have the exclusive ability of a Shadow Hand suggests that they always had Shadow powers, but that's not proof...Anyone got some Greg qoutes/other sources?


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#15 Offline fishers64

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Posted Dec 23 2013 - 02:14 PM

4) Before rejecting their Light, did the Makuta have Shadow powers? 

 

4) Yes

 

This is why fishers needs to do more research before posting.  I heard that misconception somewhere, but it's irrelevant.

 

I imagine, though, that it might be easier for a being with shadow powers to drain their inner shadow and become more violent and destructive. Of course, they would also be more prone to see the destructive and harmful effects of shadow firsthand, and possibly be more predisposed against it as a result.  

 

Also keep in mind that Mata Nui created the Makuta, not the GBs. They might have left it up to his judgement about how many of these "demolition" beings to create and whatnot. 


Edited by fishers64, Dec 23 2013 - 02:20 PM.

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#16 Offline Toa Of Anarchy

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:18 PM

personally, I think that a natural element of shadow would have been a good move by the story team (just imagine a turaga of shadow O_O 

However, I assume that the Makuta were considered enough to balance the pendulum of light and shadow, if their was a whole elemental tribe of shadow, would they be evil? I mean, shadow isn't necessarily corrupt at the start, so would these Matoran and Toa of Shadow be good, and if so that would be really weird, and if they were bad/allied with Makuta, then I believe that evil would be over powered in the story.  


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#17 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:25 PM

personally, I think that a natural element of shadow would have been a good move by the story team (just imagine a turaga of shadow O_O 

However, I assume that the Makuta were considered enough to balance the pendulum of light and shadow, if their was a whole elemental tribe of shadow, would they be evil? I mean, shadow isn't necessarily corrupt at the start, so would these Matoran and Toa of Shadow be good, and if so that would be really weird, and if they were bad/allied with Makuta, then I believe that evil would be over powered in the story.  

 

I'd agree that having Kra-Matoran and Makuta would be unbalanced. But that's not really the issue we were discussing. I don't really find having a Matoran, Toa or Turaga of Shadow is particularly weird, so long as the inner moral shadow is in balance like everyone else.


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#18 Offline Toa Of Anarchy

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:33 PM

Ok, maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I was trying to address the topic title by demonstrating how having Kra-Matoran would upset the balence of good/evil so that is why they weren't implemented. 

(I know this isn't exactly the the current discussion is about but it still is my opinion on the subject, which is yes, Makuta have shadow powers) 


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#19 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 03:47 PM

I was trying to address the topic title by demonstrating how having Kra-Matoran would upset the balence of good/evil so that is why they weren't implemented.

Just keep in mind "good/evil" should be something else in the GBs' minds, apparently. It seems they didn't know that MU beings were capable of evil, which comes from full sapience (a possible downside, though certainly not the only result, heh). I agree with the basic point, just nitpicking for discussion's sake. :P


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#20 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 04:08 PM

Ok, maybe I wasn't specific enough, but I was trying to address the topic title by demonstrating how having Kra-Matoran would upset the balence of good/evil so that is why they weren't implemented. 

(I know this isn't exactly the the current discussion is about but it still is my opinion on the subject, which is yes, Makuta have shadow powers) 

 

Kra-Matoran wouldn't be any more evil than any other kind of Matoran though... 

 

You are probably thinking about the Phantoka Shadow Matoran. There are two kinds of Shadow in Bionicle. Elemental Shadow and Moral Shadow. Elemental is like fire, water, sonics etc, and Moral is part of an inner Good/Evil type affair balance inside a being. Every being has both Light and Shadow in them. It is possible to become a being of only Light or Shadow through training, at which points one gains limited Light/Shadow powers and becomes a being of Shadow. It is possible to extract moral Light, affecting this balance. Normally Light will just come back. However, the Shadow Leeches could take moral light and create a mental barrier that stop one's light from returning. So the Shadow Matoran I think that you're thinking of were evil because of that. Not because the Element of Shadow is bad.

 

Bonesiii mentioned the Element of Shadow being symbolical representative (maybe a little more than that, but only a little) of destruction and the Element of Light being the opposite of that. For the most part these distinctions would be very subtle and are not really related to Good/Evil.

 

Sorry if you know all this it just seemed like you didn't :shrugs:


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#21 Offline Toa Of Anarchy

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Posted Dec 30 2013 - 09:00 PM

I new all that about the mental barrier, the difference between moral light and light light, etc. However, I hold that even though the beings from the element of shadow wouldn't be "evil", I think that bones point about the symbolic side of shadow would leave a "evil" connotation to the element of shadow. Because regardless of it all, shadow is always considered the "bad guys" and light the "good" guys. This being so, even if they decided to create a Kra element, I am sure that if they were "good", Then this would cause some confusion among participating fans, and probably the inhabitants of MU as well. Maybe I'm over-powering the connotations of shadow, but I'm sure that it would have some impact. 


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#22 Offline meowmachine

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Posted Jan 01 2014 - 03:37 PM

I feel the fact that light and shadow were rare powers led the great beings to decide not to make matoran of shadow. After all, shadow matoran would probably be bad workers.

Albeit it was implied there were multiple toa of shadow before the makuta insurrection and they were not seen as evil is strange seeing as there was only one toa of light ever. 


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#23 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 02 2014 - 05:13 AM

I feel the fact that light and shadow were rare powers led the great beings to decide not to make matoran of shadow. After all, shadow matoran would probably be bad workers.

Albeit it was implied there were multiple toa of shadow before the makuta insurrection and they were not seen as evil is strange seeing as there was only one toa of light ever. 

 

Multiple Toa of Shadow before the Makuta went bad? Really? When? I know about the Shadow Matoran, the Shadow Toa that Terry made for the Toa Mata, and the Shadow Takanuva, but they were all after the GC. Source? Where was it implied?


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#24 Offline SilverCor

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Posted Jan 04 2014 - 10:57 PM

Personally, I think it's already a bit unbalanced. You've got a hundred Shadow beings of immense power versus a couple hundred smaller, far less powerful beings of Light, most of whom are doomed to lose their Light powers and become mindless machines. Which side do you think would win in a war against each other? Unless fifty or more Av-Matoran became Toa, thus evening things out a bit, I'm puttin' my widgets on the Makuta. 

It'd be awesome if "official" Kra-Matoran, Toa and Turaga existed, but alas, they just weren't meant to be (at least in the Core Universe). However, I do have an idea for them in my fan-fic.  ;) 
 

 

 

I feel the fact that light and shadow were rare powers led the great beings to decide not to make matoran of shadow. After all, shadow matoran would probably be bad workers.

Albeit it was implied there were multiple toa of shadow before the makuta insurrection and they were not seen as evil is strange seeing as there was only one toa of light ever. 

 

Multiple Toa of Shadow before the Makuta went bad? Really? When? I know about the Shadow Matoran, the Shadow Toa that Terry made for the Toa Mata, and the Shadow Takanuva, but they were all after the GC. Source? Where was it implied?

I just skimmed BS01 and found nothing. :I


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#25 Offline Mel

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Posted Jan 05 2014 - 10:13 AM

You know, this all sounds like it would be a great idea for a fanfic.  What if the Great Beings stashed all the Kraa-matoran somewhere, dormant unless the world became too light?


Edited by Yukiko, Jan 05 2014 - 10:13 AM.

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#26 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Jan 05 2014 - 12:55 PM

You know, this all sounds like it would be a great idea for a fanfic.  What if the Great Beings stashed all the Kraa-matoran somewhere, dormant unless the world became too light?

 

In my unwritten head-fanfic, I set everything in a version of the the Core Universe, except I change everything I don't like, like gender imbalances, anatomical MU features and certain physics elements. Having Shadow Matoran is one of these things, I just wanted to check with everyone if there was a clear, super logical reason for there not to be Kra-Matoran. Whilst there are some ideas, I don't think I missed anything major, so, at least for my ideas, Kra-Matoran are go!


Edited by NuvaTube, Jan 05 2014 - 12:56 PM.

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#27 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jan 05 2014 - 02:01 PM

I'd agree, there doesn't seem to be any earth-shattering urgency to there not being Kra-Matoran made by GBs; it's valid for a canon-fitting type of fanfic or headcanon, yeah.

 

Re: "implying" that there were other Toa of Shadow before the whole grab-from-alternate-universes thing, I have never heard that either and have no idea where it's coming from. I thought the exact opposite was stated somewhere, that there never were any until that time.


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